There is a trend with a few ""recent"" mmos that try to target the more hardcore, forced socialization, forced grouping, heavy pvp, full open world(we dont use instances/sharding tech), old style unbalanced/unfair systems, nostalgia types. Yet shortly after launch they do a full 180 and start removing those undesired casual unfriendly systems and start making basic features other mmos had for decades.
New world being an excellent example, even after the internal changes to a less pvp focused game the game was still advertised as hardcore, all about social groups, stupid resistance systems, few teleports and no mounts, no group finder or matchmaking.
Yet all those dumb outdated systems were removed, a gazzillion teleport points and mounts now exist, there's a bigger focus on solo content and casual players, group finder was introduced and we finally have automated group finder for pvp and expeditions. All those things are already known to be popular with most players, no matter how much some scream "automated group finders killed mmos reee", we know they are successful cuz old mmos were forced to add them because played demanded better quality of life.
In other words, those are mistakes that were committed by other companies/games ages ago, yet they literally just did the same mistake.
The irony was during a recent video the dev went "It was more difficulty than we intended to get groups" while the reality is they specifically pandered to the "muh good old social no group finder" types, they chose to not have a group finder and more specifically an automated matchmaking system for expeditions and were forced to add it later on cuz the majority demands it!
Throne and liberty is another magnificent example of this, the devs advertise this as this hardcore game that is all about socialization, and guilds and pvp and its terrible for solo players etc etc
Yet based on recent patches:
-Adding more instanced pve dungeons and admitting more focus towards casual/solo/weaker guilds
-PvP events now turned into random bgs by randomly putting people in teams to stop premade/guilds dominating events. -World bosses are now going to be instanced -Boonstones limited to 1 guild vs 1 guild instead of letting alliance zerg everything -Already preparing a group finder and likely automated matchmaking in the future
And those are just changes mentioned on a game that has been out for 2 months, I am expecting a lot more in the coming months before it even comes to the west.
Those problems created by not having such basic quality of life were brain dead obvious for anyone who has played MMOs, yet the devs did the same mistakes, are they simply that delusional and think their old hardcore nostalgia days will work? Do they think all the quality of life changes over the years in mmos were a mistake even though it proved more people played the game because of it?
Like is anyone actually working with devs to explain this utterly moronic behaviour that only hurts them?
I made a thread a while ago talking about the theory of the Anti WoW. This play a big role here in the OP point. Many Developers dont understand the Why. Many just assume that by being different from WoW is all it takes, since so many of the community was vocally Anti WoW for so many years. But this never works out. Just a hipster thing. But Developers dont understand this and they self sabotage their new MMOs, leading to walking the stuff back. Guild Wars 2 development is a good example of this.
So back in Testing, Embers Adrift devs were completely against teleports of anykind. The devs would get together every Wednesday and test/play the actual game usually inviting a couple of randoms. They would always use Dev tools to teleport to their XP spot.
So I ask the devs, if they thought running for 1 hour everyday to the XP spot was so fun, why do they use their dev tools and teleport.
Answer: They thought it was important to play the game/test the game, their time as devs was too important to spend just running to the spot.
BINGO - MORON DEV, HERE'S YOUR SIGN
"The Devs time is too valuable" but they think the customers time doesnt matter apparently. No wonder they have only 25 people playing.
Got to understand the customer and most importantly respect their time.
I never forget one time the developer of this game called Sherwood Dungeons dismissed my ideas for improving the game using Anti WoW logic... https://www.sherwooddungeon.com/
I suggested adding Classes and more combat skills. Also suggested a PvPvE battleground area for faction combat... The developers gave me a long "Go back to WoW" post response on social media. This was a while ago when Anti WoW was more extreme back then in the MMO community. looking back on it, it was ridiculous but not just that. The game stagnant and hasnt grown much.
I want an exciting world. Games with fixed content, where the best way to play is to race through the content, that holds no interest to me. I want every walk in the woods, through a valley, into the mountains or deserts, each trip, can be a unique experience based on what you run into. That doesn't mean I want the physical world to change, except with maybe a small avalanche to open up a small dungeons that's new, but I want wandering mobs and new forts they make to be a possibility. And maybe even a new Dragon's nest or Liches burial mound.
Unfortunately I want both, a theme park "meat" wrapped in a 'no-survival' sandbox sandwich. But that's a huge ask and I realise it is way too ambitious in todays MMO genre which is tentative about changing any part of the formula.
This Thread is testament to the idiocy that dev's fall prey to.
a very few vocal people get their panties into a wad, cry about how much they fucking LOVE all the features that fucking suck, like slow travel, equipment damage, death pens, lack of maps, needing to eat, avoiding shitting your pants, full loot open world pvp with optional corpse abuse, dong slider scales (Like we are all not going to make the biggest dick we can) and a slew of other really annoying bullshit
They see these vocal voices crying OMG WE FUCKING LOVE some of the most annoying asinine bullshit ever, and saying obvious lies like "I would spend Soooo much money if they made a game like that!"
They will cite one game that somehow didn't face fuck the earth upon launch, as their flag ship of greatness, often enough, and unironically, a game they either have not played or no longer play, for "reasons" which, have nothing to do with the sucktastic mechanics, or "It just wasn't done right!"
Dev see this and go.. "OMFG Look at that Untapped market of endless cash they will throw at us if we make that kind of shit game"
and it face fucks the earth on launch, their investors are like "Fix this shit or we cut your balls off"
So lo and behold.. all those lovely mechanics that they put that made the game suck huge hairy balls, that they put in, because they were duped to believe that is what players want... go right the fuck out the window as they try to scramble and save their game, and thus their job and livelihood.
Leaving all the players with any common sense going "The absolute fuck is wrong with you dumbasses?"
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Also I think you are being disingenuous with what brainy is saying...devs not respecting the players time is not a rare or unusual occurrence and them not knowing or playing their content without "cheating" is not unusual either in mmo's.
If you want to know if something works from the point of view of your player base you need to play it ALL out like they do. Sure if their goal is just to check if one dungeon works not a biggie to load in right there but if people are complaining about travel...welp you need to try traveling like they do.
Lets not suger coat it lots of devs out there have fat heads, are stubborn know it alls that think... you will play my way and only my way and you will like it cause I know best even to the point that sometimes they make their own product fail.
Lets not confuse having a vision and sticking to it with I don't give a shit what my playerbase wants and my ego wont allow me to listen.
I am not sure why you are trying to take away or negate the very, very valid point he is making here?
Other than that you seem to dislike his opinion personally, it's almost like you feel targeted by his statement?
He's not making a valid point. He's essentially taking a simple part of game play and twisting it into something it's not. He's taking a walk through experience and twisting it into something it's not.
Making one's way through the world is a very personal and unique experience. I do believe in some fast travel but in general if you aren't going to make your way through the world then make a lobby game. Absolutely NO reason to waste time and resources on a world. Just do what Guild Wars 1 did and be done with it.
Getting to Antharas' lair in Lineage 2 was an epic trip. If you weren't careful you'd die. Then you finally came upon it and it was like a revelation, a hidden gem waiting for the players to experience. There were even players who would bring goods and sell them because there was not going back in seconds.
But then they eventually changed it so there was a fast travel node there and no real reason for sellers or getting help getting there. It was just another stop along the fast travel subway.
Brainy and your issue with some devs (not all developers) sound demanding and entitled. If you were to make the game you always wanted to make I would bet dollars to donuts you'd get another group telling you how you were not respecting players and blah blah blah.
Neither of you seem the type to capitulate to the demands of the crowd.
Hogwash.
You don't like fast travel points cause of reasons, that is very clear. Travel in games is often a highly debated point because it is exactly that highly subjective and personal.
Some like myself like to sniff the roses and explore but once that is done it doesn't mean I want to do all the friggin time...sometimes I want to teleport or fast travel.
Now if devs insist on no fast travel cause reason, cause my vision, cause they feel peeps NEED to explore the world how THEY deem fit that good and dandy but if they are then going to do a live stream about their game or showcase their game they need and very bloody well should live by what they are preaching.
If that means they need to travel for 15 minutes to that dungeon, just like the players do, then so be it..they are the ones pushing for that in the first damn place so show it like it is...don't be hypocrites, don't cheat and don't make the game look different than what it is.
The only one sounding entitled here is you mate thinking your point of view is the only valid one, hate to break it to you bud it isn't. Other views are perfectly valid and so is the criticism brainy was making.
I am sorry but this idea you can.t have a nice beautiful open world to explore unless it walk everywhere slowly on foot on a bit faster on horse back and no fast travel spot can be unlocked is a total load of shit.
It doesn't have to be walk every all the time or be a lobby game that's just stupid sloppy thinking and so is trying to peddle the idea that if you don't agree with that you are wrong or entitled..
....you said it yourself, "Making one's way through the world is a very personal and unique experience" thus you cant have it both ways and state this then says then make a lobby game...
Here's an example, I enjoyed running around gathering in new world I made like 50k gold just gathering when if first came out cause I enjoyed the sights...that said I am happy as hell it had fast travel points and also happy it added mounts later on it enhanced the game IMO and didn't make it worse and no it shouldn't be turned into a lobby game cause it has fast travel.
If devs are not willing to do what they want to force the players to do "because their time is too valuable to do so" then yeah they are disrespecting the players time and saying their time is somehow more important.
That's like telling me your 50$ usd is better or worth more than my 50$ usd.
No, I absolutely think there are other opinions and tastes. I've always said that for all my years. My issue is that developers are making their games, the games they want and what do we hear?
They are wasting our time, they should do it how we we want. If it's not worth streaming it's not worth having.
You are doing what you accuse me of doing. Not allowing them having their own tastes and therefore their own vision.
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Also I think you are being disingenuous with what brainy is saying...devs not respecting the players time is not a rare or unusual occurrence and them not knowing or playing their content without "cheating" is not unusual either in mmo's.
If you want to know if something works from the point of view of your player base you need to play it ALL out like they do. Sure if their goal is just to check if one dungeon works not a biggie to load in right there but if people are complaining about travel...welp you need to try traveling like they do.
Lets not suger coat it lots of devs out there have fat heads, are stubborn know it alls that think... you will play my way and only my way and you will like it cause I know best even to the point that sometimes they make their own product fail.
Lets not confuse having a vision and sticking to it with I don't give a shit what my playerbase wants and my ego wont allow me to listen.
I am not sure why you are trying to take away or negate the very, very valid point he is making here?
Other than that you seem to dislike his opinion personally, it's almost like you feel targeted by his statement?
He's not making a valid point. He's essentially taking a simple part of game play and twisting it into something it's not. He's taking a walk through experience and twisting it into something it's not.
Making one's way through the world is a very personal and unique experience. I do believe in some fast travel but in general if you aren't going to make your way through the world then make a lobby game. Absolutely NO reason to waste time and resources on a world. Just do what Guild Wars 1 did and be done with it.
Getting to Antharas' lair in Lineage 2 was an epic trip. If you weren't careful you'd die. Then you finally came upon it and it was like a revelation, a hidden gem waiting for the players to experience. There were even players who would bring goods and sell them because there was not going back in seconds.
But then they eventually changed it so there was a fast travel node there and no real reason for sellers or getting help getting there. It was just another stop along the fast travel subway.
Brainy and your issue with some devs (not all developers) sound demanding and entitled. If you were to make the game you always wanted to make I would bet dollars to donuts you'd get another group telling you how you were not respecting players and blah blah blah.
Neither of you seem the type to capitulate to the demands of the crowd.
I hit you up with "Awesomes" on this post as well as your previous one. I agree, except for this point...
I always felt that UO's Runestones were a great way to handle fast travel. A mage marked a runestone for the spot they are standing on. They have to get there first. Anyone could then use that runestone to "Recall" (with no Magery skill and a simple spell scroll) or "Gate" (high skilled Mages for multiple players) there.
In your previous post you said: "The caveat to that is that there should be things that happen in the world, things that can be discovered. Heck, that's the whole basis for the elder scrolls games starting from morrowind."
This is a great point. But players can explore those journeys any time, I don't think a game needs to force it on them. Those players who just jump from Dungeon to Dungeon lose out in a game designed like this, they miss the opportunities in between, and I think a good game should have those opportunities and a flush world to play in.
There are practical reasons for a game not to force long trips to get anywhere in their world, RL happens and keeping up with friends inside the world can be very difficult.
I'm all for that type of fast travel. Morrowind had it with boats and silt striders. I also like the idea that mages (in a fantasy game) can open portals. Aion has this.
There needs to be "some" fast travel in order to get players together so they can start whatever they are doing.
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No, I absolutely think there are other opinions and tastes. I've always said that for all my years. My issue is that developers are making their games, the games they want and what do we hear?
They are wasting our time, they should do it how we we want. If it's not worth streaming it's not worth having.
You are doing what you accuse me of doing. Not allowing them having their own tastes and therefore their own vision.
No. You are taking what is being said totally out of context to be "right" and to deny the point that is being made.
Ofc there will be all kinds of games that cater to different ideas and where dev might have a different vision..there is nothing wrong with that.
What I am saying and the point brainy has that is very valid is that when those said devs cannot or will not live by the system and vision they want to push onto their player base because, "their time is too valuable" then they are full of shit and are saying their time is more important than their player bases time and that friend no matter what side of the argument you fall in IS disrespecting your player base on fundamental level.
It's sad as hell you can't concede this in your need to be right and keep trying to twist this into something else that is being said.
Stop with the strawmaning mate it makes you look foolish and like a hypocrite yourself.
If devs make a game where there is no fast travel...good for them if that's their vision but if they then come into game, do a live stream and don't follow their own vision or system and cheat by fast traveling to the interesting bits instead of "enjoying the journey there" like they are forcing their playerbase to do, all because their time is too valuable" that is disrespecting their playerbase period.
You are doing what you accuse me of doing. Not allowing them having their own tastes and therefore their own vision.
Again hogwash.
I am saying they need to live by the same system and vision they have for the playerbase themselves when playing their own game...if they cannot for w/e "reasons" then they are being hypocrites.
Like I said stop with the strawman fallacies, which is the only thing you have been replying with... lol
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
This Thread is testament to the idiocy that dev's fall prey to.
a very few vocal people get their panties into a wad, cry about how much they fucking LOVE all the features that fucking suck, like slow travel, equipment damage, death pens, lack of maps, needing to eat, avoiding shitting your pants, full loot open world pvp with optional corpse abuse, dong slider scales (Like we are all not going to make the biggest dick we can) and a slew of other really annoying bullshit
They see these vocal voices crying OMG WE FUCKING LOVE some of the most annoying asinine bullshit ever, and saying obvious lies like "I would spend Soooo much money if they made a game like that!"
They will cite one game that somehow didn't face fuck the earth upon launch, as their flag ship of greatness, often enough, and unironically, a game they either have not played or no longer play, for "reasons" which, have nothing to do with the sucktastic mechanics, or "It just wasn't done right!"
Dev see this and go.. "OMFG Look at that Untapped market of endless cash they will throw at us if we make that kind of shit game"
and it face fucks the earth on launch, their investors are like "Fix this shit or we cut your balls off"
So lo and behold.. all those lovely mechanics that they put that made the game suck huge hairy balls, that they put in, because they were duped to believe that is what players want... go right the fuck out the window as they try to scramble and save their game, and thus their job and livelihood.
Leaving all the players with any common sense going "The absolute fuck is wrong with you dumbasses?"
Do you feel better now that you got all that off your chest? So glad, must have really been weighing on you.
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Like I said stop with the strawman fallacies, which is the only thing you have been replying with... lol
Omg they’re testing. There is no reason they should have to test/ show off parts of the game that don’t require it. The idea that you and brainy don’t understand this is staggering.
now if we were talking about actual daily play, not development, then there would be a point here.
Even I, who prefers less fast travel, would not be showing travel to a place I wanted to feature or test.
When I was making my mod I wouldn’t start at the beginning and run through to a particular place when I was showing people. I would spawn at the start of the map or even at a new encounter.
This “they need to travel over world in order to justify this feature “ is ludicrous.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
A reminder new world started of with boasting about forcing people to walk a lot cuz "muh vision", no mounts and very few travel points, and now?
-A ton of travel points added and even more are being added every few patches to the point there's too many xd
-There's an entire mount system introduced.
This is exactly what I am talking about, people can mentally masturbate to the idea of old style big world with limited instant travel in hardcore circles, but the reality is internal data shows to the company that the majority dont want that and even quit because of it.
Hence why they drop their "vision" so quickly.
Same reason why mmos have been more and more focused on casual/solo players who want instant fun, no group making bs or gatekeeping max power behind group only content.
Not every game is for everyone. The majority isn't the only market. Games with niche appeal exist through well pleasing a very specific audience. Visions are sacrificed when the desire to grow that audience exceeds that of satisfying the one established.
Those that stay a different course get endless critique over their departure form the norm, naturally. God forbid a game be intended to cater to other than the masses.
There is a trend with a few ""recent"" mmos that try to target the more hardcore, forced socialization, forced grouping, heavy pvp, full open world(we dont use instances/sharding tech), old style unbalanced/unfair systems, nostalgia types. Yet shortly after launch they do a full 180 and start removing those undesired casual unfriendly systems and start making basic features other mmos had for decades.
New world being an excellent example, even after the internal changes to a less pvp focused game the game was still advertised as hardcore, all about social groups, stupid resistance systems, few teleports and no mounts, no group finder or matchmaking.
Yet all those dumb outdated systems were removed, a gazzillion teleport points and mounts now exist, there's a bigger focus on solo content and casual players, group finder was introduced and we finally have automated group finder for pvp and expeditions. All those things are already known to be popular with most players, no matter how much some scream "automated group finders killed mmos reee", we know they are successful cuz old mmos were forced to add them because played demanded better quality of life.
In other words, those are mistakes that were committed by other companies/games ages ago, yet they literally just did the same mistake.
The irony was during a recent video the dev went "It was more difficulty than we intended to get groups" while the reality is they specifically pandered to the "muh good old social no group finder" types, they chose to not have a group finder and more specifically an automated matchmaking system for expeditions and were forced to add it later on cuz the majority demands it!
Throne and liberty is another magnificent example of this, the devs advertise this as this hardcore game that is all about socialization, and guilds and pvp and its terrible for solo players etc etc
Yet based on recent patches:
-Adding more instanced pve dungeons and admitting more focus towards casual/solo/weaker guilds
-PvP events now turned into random bgs by randomly putting people in teams to stop premade/guilds dominating events. -World bosses are now going to be instanced -Boonstones limited to 1 guild vs 1 guild instead of letting alliance zerg everything -Already preparing a group finder and likely automated matchmaking in the future
And those are just changes mentioned on a game that has been out for 2 months, I am expecting a lot more in the coming months before it even comes to the west.
Those problems created by not having such basic quality of life were brain dead obvious for anyone who has played MMOs, yet the devs did the same mistakes, are they simply that delusional and think their old hardcore nostalgia days will work? Do they think all the quality of life changes over the years in mmos were a mistake even though it proved more people played the game because of it?
Like is anyone actually working with devs to explain this utterly moronic behaviour that only hurts them?
I made a thread a while ago talking about the theory of the Anti WoW. This play a big role here in the OP point. Many Developers dont understand the Why. Many just assume that by being different from WoW is all it takes, since so many of the community was vocally Anti WoW for so many years. But this never works out. Just a hipster thing. But Developers dont understand this and they self sabotage their new MMOs, leading to walking the stuff back. Guild Wars 2 development is a good example of this.
MMORPGs persist that are quite unlike WoW so it can indeed work out. It is not a path to success in and of itself. The difference offered must still have sufficient appeal to draw enough of an audience to generate the desired profit.
Like I said stop with the strawman fallacies, which is the only thing you have been replying with... lol
Omg they’re testing. There is no reason they should have to test/ show off parts of the game that don’t require it. The idea that you and brainy don’t understand this is staggering.
now if we were talking about actual daily play, not development, then there would be a point here.
Even I, who prefers less fast travel, would not be showing travel to a place I wanted to feature or test.
When I was making my mod I wouldn’t start at the beginning and run through to a particular place when I was showing people. I would spawn at the start of the map or even at a new encounter.
This “they need to travel over world in order to justify this feature “ is ludicrous.
And if they are just testing a dungeon that is fine, go back and read I already said this.
However if one complaint they keep getting is travel and they are showcasing the game, even during a EA or beta etc then they need to test the travel crap too.
Get with it man it's a valid point, not hard to understand devs need to practice what they preach.
Using some limited examples its fine if they don't but you have been strawmaning and countering general statements with this limited BS when that's not what I have been saying nor was the point brainy was making so stop twisting and admit it's a valid point.
The only ludicrous thing here right now is you pretending I said something I didn't and playing dumb in this last post.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
However if one complaint they keep getting is travel and they are showcasing the game, even during a EA or beta etc then they need to test the travel crap too.
Developers don't need to do anything in response to travel complaints, but can test alternatives at their option. They could also not and instead state to the complainers that perhaps the game being made isn't suited to their preferences.
However if one complaint they keep getting is travel and they are showcasing the game, even during a EA or beta etc then they need to test the travel crap too.
Developers don't need to do anything in response to travel complaints, but can test alternatives at their option. They could also not and instead state to the complainers that perhaps the game being made isn't suited to their preferences.
Sure and that would just go to show they are letting their ego run the show and point and parcel to the point being made.
Ofc no one can "force" the effing devs to do anything even if it means their game will fail. Just like peeps can also say fk you and not play the game at all and it can just fail.
Not sure why people are being so stupid and friggin obtuse on this......if you are marketing something and can't practice what you preach in general it wont go well for you.
Cases of do what I say not what I do.....it says lots.
Look at the OP again...the question is are devs delusional?
..... the plain fact is many are and plenty of games they have tried to push have failed because of it especially when they let their ego's run the show.
We have seen many such cases of ego driven delusional cases right here such as Chronicles of Elyria and Revival...just to name two off the top of my head.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Sure and that would just go to show they are letting their ego run the show and point and parcel to the point being made.
Ofc no one can "force" the effing devs to do anything even if it means their game will fail. Just like peeps can also say fk you and not play the game at all and it can just fail.
Not sure why people are being so stupid and friggin obtuse on this......if you are marketing something and can't practice what you preach in general it wont go well for you.
Cases of do what I say not what I do.....it says lots.
Look at the OP again...the question is are devs delusional?
..... the plain fact is many are and plenty of games they have tried to push have failed because of it especially when they let their ego's run the show.
We have seen many such cases of ego driven delusional cases right here such as Chronicles of Elyria and Revival...just to name two off the top of my head.
They are being obtuse, because they have lost their point, but dont want to admit that they have. So they are twisting themselves into all kinds of knots trying to to backpedal their entire arguement from the start.
Just as many have said, there is a small group of people that hold these beliefs, that are in many Dev's ears telling them exactly the same message. They dont care if the game is successful or not, they dont care if the game sells a bunch of copies.
What is also true is many of these players dont even play the mechanics they pretend to say they want. I cant tell you how many times the devs finally change the mechanic and put the fast travel into the game begrudgingly, then you have these same people are saying how amazing it is. That somehow this implementation is different then people were saying years before when they were pretending it would somehow kill the game if they put the fast travel in.
They are just playing forum PVP and agruing a point for no good reason.
They say they dont like fast travel, yet all their favorite games they play the most have fast travel, Skyrim, Dark souls, etc... Its a joke.
#1: Reds According to the developers, in UO a single group of reds could trigger hundreds of support tickets in a single evening. They could do this in large part because they could gate from noob zone to noob zone - and be gone before the law showed up. There was a couple of things broken to make that possible, but fast travel is a big part of it.
#2: Trade Another issue is trade. If you have a market-based economy and people can teleport to the location of goods, then why buy anything at all? The rarest of goods is a quick teleport away.
#3: Map Choke points like bridges, valleys, or entrances to dungeons become meaningless if everyone can just teleport everywhere. Why not just make the map a series of "rooms" that don't even need to be connected anymore? This is why I don't play FFIVX - it is all a bunch of small rooms between fast travel points.
Fractured Online does have very limited fast travel - ports that will take you to other ports that are on the edges of the continents.
Travel really matters in this game - something worth 100gp each in Aerhen is worth 250 in Terra, and even more in the far reaches of Terra because of the risk of transporting items through the portal (PvP zones) and the time involved.
It also matters when someone is killed by a Pk - I ask where it happened because it lets me know if I need to move along or if I'm relatively safe. There are PK hotspots in the game - and because of the lack of fast travel - you can do quite a bit on corners of the map that are just to far away for them to bother searching. Fast travel would kill that.
For PvP, trade, and map design the lack of fast travel is essential to what makes a game enjoyable to me. That said, the game has to support it, and what I mean is there are items all over the map, even in noob zones, that are valuable to players at every level.
It makes sense for level base games to have fast travel because you have to get past the noob content to advance. Sure, teleport through the poorly designed game world to get where you need to go - the level system, garbage that it is, is a game design choice that ends up breaking other elements.
Developers should be asking themselves: How do I make the entire game world interesting and important to all players of the game for the duration of their stay? IMHO, levels and fast travel are for people who should be designing accounting software and not video games.
This Thread is testament to the idiocy that dev's fall prey to.
a very few vocal people get their panties into a wad, cry about how much they fucking LOVE all the features that fucking suck, like slow travel, equipment damage, death pens, lack of maps, needing to eat, avoiding shitting your pants, full loot open world pvp with optional corpse abuse, dong slider scales (Like we are all not going to make the biggest dick we can) and a slew of other really annoying bullshit
They see these vocal voices crying OMG WE FUCKING LOVE some of the most annoying asinine bullshit ever, and saying obvious lies like "I would spend Soooo much money if they made a game like that!"
They will cite one game that somehow didn't face fuck the earth upon launch, as their flag ship of greatness, often enough, and unironically, a game they either have not played or no longer play, for "reasons" which, have nothing to do with the sucktastic mechanics, or "It just wasn't done right!"
Dev see this and go.. "OMFG Look at that Untapped market of endless cash they will throw at us if we make that kind of shit game"
and it face fucks the earth on launch, their investors are like "Fix this shit or we cut your balls off"
So lo and behold.. all those lovely mechanics that they put that made the game suck huge hairy balls, that they put in, because they were duped to believe that is what players want... go right the fuck out the window as they try to scramble and save their game, and thus their job and livelihood.
Leaving all the players with any common sense going "The absolute fuck is wrong with you dumbasses?"
Do you feel better now that you got all that off your chest? So glad, must have really been weighing on you.
It was, very cathartic.
I also enjoy saying fuck way too much.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
However if one complaint they keep getting is travel and they are showcasing the game, even during a EA or beta etc then they need to test the travel crap too.
Developers don't need to do anything in response to travel complaints, but can test alternatives at their option. They could also not and instead state to the complainers that perhaps the game being made isn't suited to their preferences.
Sure and that would just go to show they are letting their ego run the show and point and parcel to the point being made.
Ofc no one can "force" the effing devs to do anything even if it means their game will fail. Just like peeps can also say fk you and not play the game at all and it can just fail.
Not sure why people are being so stupid and friggin obtuse on this......if you are marketing something and can't practice what you preach in general it wont go well for you.
Cases of do what I say not what I do.....it says lots.
Look at the OP again...the question is are devs delusional?
..... the plain fact is many are and plenty of games they have tried to push have failed because of it especially when they let their ego's run the show.
We have seen many such cases of ego driven delusional cases right here such as Chronicles of Elyria and Revival...just to name two off the top of my head.
It could instead go to show they are committed to the decision they made. Commitment to one's choices isn't by necessity a flaw. Some consider it a virtue.
Making decisions that solely appeal to a narrow audience doesn't automatically lead to failure. It does lead to a smaller profit potential. Some are okay with that.
People aren't being obtuse over this. They are looking at it from a perspective differing from you own. There is nothing stupid about doing so.
There is nothing delusional about choosing to offer a niche product. It is in fact a business tactic that often leads to success. It can also lead to failure. Risky business is a phrase based in fact.
What is odd is the expected conformance some have that every thing must tick their personal boxes of preference. One could argue that perspective delusional.
#1: Reds According to the developers, in UO a single group of reds could trigger hundreds of support tickets in a single evening. They could do this in large part because they could gate from noob zone to noob zone - and be gone before the law showed up. There was a couple of things broken to make that possible, but fast travel is a big part of it.
#2: Trade Another issue is trade. If you have a market-based economy and people can teleport to the location of goods, then why buy anything at all? The rarest of goods is a quick teleport away.
#3: Map Choke points like bridges, valleys, or entrances to dungeons become meaningless if everyone can just teleport everywhere. Why not just make the map a series of "rooms" that don't even need to be connected anymore? This is why I don't play FFIVX - it is all a bunch of small rooms between fast travel points.
Fractured Online does have very limited fast travel - ports that will take you to other ports that are on the edges of the continents.
Travel really matters in this game - something worth 100gp each in Aerhen is worth 250 in Terra, and even more in the far reaches of Terra because of the risk of transporting items through the portal (PvP zones) and the time involved.
It also matters when someone is killed by a Pk - I ask where it happened because it lets me know if I need to move along or if I'm relatively safe. There are PK hotspots in the game - and because of the lack of fast travel - you can do quite a bit on corners of the map that are just to far away for them to bother searching. Fast travel would kill that.
For PvP, trade, and map design the lack of fast travel is essential to what makes a game enjoyable to me. That said, the game has to support it, and what I mean is there are items all over the map, even in noob zones, that are valuable to players at every level.
It makes sense for level base games to have fast travel because you have to get past the noob content to advance. Sure, teleport through the poorly designed game world to get where you need to go - the level system, garbage that it is, is a game design choice that ends up breaking other elements.
Developers should be asking themselves: How do I make the entire game world interesting and important to all players of the game for the duration of their stay? IMHO, levels and fast travel are for people who should be designing accounting software and not video games.
All interesting points that illustrate that while fast travel is well suited to some MMORPG games it can be contrary to the play of others.
However if one complaint they keep getting is travel and they are showcasing the game, even during a EA or beta etc then they need to test the travel crap too.
Developers don't need to do anything in response to travel complaints, but can test alternatives at their option. They could also not and instead state to the complainers that perhaps the game being made isn't suited to their preferences.
Sure and that would just go to show they are letting their ego run the show and point and parcel to the point being made.
Ofc no one can "force" the effing devs to do anything even if it means their game will fail. Just like peeps can also say fk you and not play the game at all and it can just fail.
Not sure why people are being so stupid and friggin obtuse on this......if you are marketing something and can't practice what you preach in general it wont go well for you.
Cases of do what I say not what I do.....it says lots.
Look at the OP again...the question is are devs delusional?
..... the plain fact is many are and plenty of games they have tried to push have failed because of it especially when they let their ego's run the show.
We have seen many such cases of ego driven delusional cases right here such as Chronicles of Elyria and Revival...just to name two off the top of my head.
It could instead go to show they are committed to the decision they made. Commitment to one's choices isn't by necessity a flaw. Some consider it a virtue.
Making decisions that solely appeal to a narrow audience doesn't automatically lead to failure. It does lead to a smaller profit potential. Some are okay with that.
People aren't being obtuse over this. They are looking at it from a perspective differing from you own. There is nothing stupid about doing so.
There is nothing delusional about choosing to offer a niche product. It is in fact a business tactic that often leads to success. It can also lead to failure. Risky business is a phrase based in fact.
What is odd is the expected conformance some have that every thing must tick their personal boxes of preference. One could argue that perspective delusional.
No shit dick tracy......
I have no problems with devs that have a vision, stick to it and also stick to it when playing the game or showcasing it, mostly devs like this wont cheat or quick travel somewhere when live streaming and wont say shit like "my time is too valuable to waste on walking 15 minutes" to get from point a to point b cause they will want to show WHY they want this kind of thing in game and WHY they want to player base to do this.
Nothing wrong with the above and I never said there was, not once in this thread.
Brainy however has a point in that not all devs are like that some are stubborn aholes with large oversized egos and those while they seem to be sticking to their "vision" also tend to friggin cheat and not stick to it when playing themselves or showcasing their game cause...you know their time is too valuable. A case of do or play as I say not what I do or how I play with those.
It's this example here above some of you are being friggin obtuse about and refuse to admit is a valid point.
It's like no shit sherlock not every game will appeal to every player, some like pvp, some don't, some are okay with smaller niche games that will appeal to a smaller audience...really not a great revelation there mate and nothing wrong with that, its just so obvious that it goes without saying......lol
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
However if one complaint they keep getting is travel and they are showcasing the game, even during a EA or beta etc then they need to test the travel crap too.
Developers don't need to do anything in response to travel complaints, but can test alternatives at their option. They could also not and instead state to the complainers that perhaps the game being made isn't suited to their preferences.
Sure and that would just go to show they are letting their ego run the show and point and parcel to the point being made.
Ofc no one can "force" the effing devs to do anything even if it means their game will fail. Just like peeps can also say fk you and not play the game at all and it can just fail.
Not sure why people are being so stupid and friggin obtuse on this......if you are marketing something and can't practice what you preach in general it wont go well for you.
Cases of do what I say not what I do.....it says lots.
Look at the OP again...the question is are devs delusional?
..... the plain fact is many are and plenty of games they have tried to push have failed because of it especially when they let their ego's run the show.
We have seen many such cases of ego driven delusional cases right here such as Chronicles of Elyria and Revival...just to name two off the top of my head.
It could instead go to show they are committed to the decision they made. Commitment to one's choices isn't by necessity a flaw. Some consider it a virtue.
Making decisions that solely appeal to a narrow audience doesn't automatically lead to failure. It does lead to a smaller profit potential. Some are okay with that.
People aren't being obtuse over this. They are looking at it from a perspective differing from you own. There is nothing stupid about doing so.
There is nothing delusional about choosing to offer a niche product. It is in fact a business tactic that often leads to success. It can also lead to failure. Risky business is a phrase based in fact.
What is odd is the expected conformance some have that every thing must tick their personal boxes of preference. One could argue that perspective delusional.
No shit dick tracy......
I have no problems with devs that have a vision, stick to it and also stick to it when playing the game or showcasing it, mostly devs like this wont cheat or quick travel somewhere when live streaming and wont say shit like "my time is too valuable to waste on walking 15 minutes" to get from point a to point b cause they will want to show WHY they want this kind of thing in game and WHY they want to player base to do this.
Nothing wrong with the above and I never said there was, not once in this thread.
Brainy however has a point in that not all devs are like that some are stubborn aholes with large oversized egos and those while they seem to be sticking to their "vision" also tend to friggin cheat and not stick to it when playing themselves or showcasing their game cause...you know their time is too valuable. A case of do or play as I say not what I do or how I play with those.
It's this example here above some of you are being friggin obtuse about and refuse to admit is a valid point.
It's like no shit sherlock not every game will appeal to every player, some like pvp, some don't, some are okay with smaller niche games that will appeal to a smaller audience...really not a great revelation there mate and nothing wrong with that, its just so obvious that it goes without saying......lol
Developers don't need to jump though the hoops Brainy wishes and you seem to feel reasonable. If he wants something that will do such on command he is free to acquire a poodle and so train it.
Displaying travel makes sense only when travel itself is being showcased. Outside of that it is a waste of time for the presenter and viewer both. Nobody cares how the person showcasing a new dungeon got there.
A decision to minimize or even deny fast travel methods in a game need not be justified. It should be mentioned to prospective players as such is atypical in MMORPGs, but anything beyond that isn't necessary.
Everything about MMORPGs is do as the developer permits, not as they can. This has and will always be so. Extra mobility within a game is not unreasonable for developers to have or make use of to facilitate their work, of which showcasing the game is part.
That some developers are stubborn aholes with oversized egos is entirely irrelevant. To expect them to abide by player limitations in the course of their work, which at time includes showcasing the game, is absurd.
If it was so obvious that games need not widely appeal there wouldn't be so much bitching in the forums over games that choose instead that narrow. Yet there is, so apparently we are not quite there yet.
Developers don't need to jump though the hoops Brainy wishes and you seem to feel reasonable. If he wants something that will do such on command he is free to acquire a poodle and so train it.
Displaying travel makes sense only when travel itself is being showcased. Outside of that it is a waste of time for the presenter and viewer both. Nobody cares how the person showcasing a new dungeon got there.
More strawman fallacies as I never said otherwise and even said the same thing essentially that loading right to a dungeon when testing a dungeons is fine. One more BS response to try and appear clever and spout BS that's not relevant to what I said.
A decision to minimize or even deny fast travel methods in a game need not be justified. It should be mentioned to prospective players as such is atypical in MMORPGs, but anything beyond that isn't necessary.
No shit and I never said other wise so more strawmaning here to refute an argument I never made!
Everything about MMORPGs is do as the developer permits, not as they can. This has and will always be so. Extra mobility within a game is not unreasonable for developers to have or make use of to facilitate their work, of which showcasing the game is part.
More bullshit here, if devs showcase a game and want to peddle some features as must have for immersion or w/e then they should be playing it, they should be showing it and skipping it just cause they are devs and they can isn't really a great way to convince anyone its a great idea, no one here was taking about in the middle of their work when coding the game or bloody testing a dungeon but rather of showing the game off and actually paying it.
Devs that only play their own game with godmode on and using other such cheats tend to suck arse as devs and make crappy games cause they dont really know how to play it and thus make crappy calls in the game itself when it comes to mechanics etc.
Practice what you preach, walk the talk, do the time for the crime or STFU when told you you don't know your own game.
Trying to peddle showcasing a game as part of the job where skipping a key feature is okay is fking stupid and ludicrous.
That some developers are stubborn aholes with oversized egos is entirely irrelevant. To expect them to abide by player limitations in the course of their work, which at time includes showcasing the game, is absurd.
Its really on point to what I was saying and the idea in that last sentence is again fking stupid and ludicrous for the reason previously stated
If it was so obvious that games need not widely appeal there wouldn't be so much bitching in the forums over games that choose instead that narrow. Yet there is, so apparently we are not quite there yet.
Hogwash, this is a forum to talk about such things if having a conversation is bitching maybe you should stop bitching yourself and let others have at it?
Not sure why you think the idea not all game need to be a huge raging success for the masses is even relevant to this conversation other than to try and inflate your ego and self worth by making stupidly obvious comments in the guise of trying to teach your betters stuff they already know.
....and yes I said your betters cause you are pretty low down the rung if you need to resort to this kind of BS.
Maybe stop "bitching in a forum" and go get some fresh air.
Anyways... Brainy had it right in his last post I guess.
Carry on peeps.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Developers don't need to jump though the hoops Brainy wishes and you seem to feel reasonable. If he wants something that will do such on command he is free to acquire a poodle and so train it.
Displaying travel makes sense only when travel itself is being showcased. Outside of that it is a waste of time for the presenter and viewer both. Nobody cares how the person showcasing a new dungeon got there.
More strawman fallacies as I never said otherwise and even said the same thing essentially that loading right to a dungeon when testing a dungeons is fine. One more BS response to try and appear clever and spout BS that's not relevant to what I said.
A decision to minimize or even deny fast travel methods in a game need not be justified. It should be mentioned to prospective players as such is atypical in MMORPGs, but anything beyond that isn't necessary.
No shit and I never said other wise so more strawmaning here to refute an argument I never made!
Everything about MMORPGs is do as the developer permits, not as they can. This has and will always be so. Extra mobility within a game is not unreasonable for developers to have or make use of to facilitate their work, of which showcasing the game is part.
More bullshit here, if devs showcase a game and want to peddle some features as must have for immersion or w/e then they should be playing it, they should be showing it and skipping it just cause they are devs and they can isn't really a great way to convince anyone its a great idea, no one here was taking about in the middle of their work when coding the game or bloody testing a dungeon but rather of showing the game off and actually paying it.
Devs that only play their own game with godmode on and using other such cheats tend to suck arse as devs and make crappy games cause they dont really know how to play it and thus make crappy calls in the game itself when it comes to mechanics etc.
Practice what you preach, walk the talk, do the time for the crime or STFU when told you you don't know your own game.
Trying to peddle showcasing a game as part of the job where skipping a key feature is okay is fking stupid and ludicrous.
That some developers are stubborn aholes with oversized egos is entirely irrelevant. To expect them to abide by player limitations in the course of their work, which at time includes showcasing the game, is absurd.
Its really on point to what I was saying and the idea in that last sentence is again fking stupid and ludicrous for the reason previously stated
If it was so obvious that games need not widely appeal there wouldn't be so much bitching in the forums over games that choose instead that narrow. Yet there is, so apparently we are not quite there yet.
Hogwash, this is a forum to talk about such things if having a conversation is bitching maybe you should stop bitching yourself and let others have at it?
Not sure why you think the idea not all game need to be a huge raging success for the masses is even relevant to this conversation other than to try and inflate your ego and self worth by making stupidly obvious comments in the guise of trying to teach your betters stuff they already know.
....and yes I said your betters cause you are pretty low down the rung if you need to resort to this kind of BS.
Maybe stop "bitching in a forum" and go get some fresh air.
Anyways... Brainy had it right in his last post I guess.
Carry on peeps.
Did I say you said otherwise? What I said is you seem to feel Brainy's wishes reasonable. Perhaps you should on what I say rather than what you contrive it to mean.
You previously said this:
b cause they will want to show WHY they want this kind of thing in game and WHY they want to player base to do this.
Apparently you felt some sort of justification should be offered then. Did you forget that earlier assertion or have you since changed you mind?
Developers should showcase what they wish to in the manner they desire. It's their call to make, not that of those critiquing from the sidelines.
Sometimes people bitch in the course of making conversation. Gaming forums are an excellent source of examples of such.
Why all games need not be raging successes is relevant to the expressed dissatisfaction over atypical choices made in some niche appeal games.
There is no need to call out your superiority complex, Asm0deus. Your ongoing blatant oozing of it is devoid of subtlety.
Did I say you said otherwise? What I said is you seem to feel Brainy's wishes reasonable. Perhaps you should on what I say rather than what you contrive it to mean.
You previously said this:
b cause they will want to show WHY they want this kind of thing in game and WHY they want to player base to do this.
Apparently you felt some sort of justification should be offered then. Did you forget that earlier assertion or have you since changed you mind?
Developers should showcase what they wish to in the manner they desire. It's their call to make, not that of those critiquing from the sidelines.
Sometimes people bitch in the course of making conversation. Gaming forums are an excellent source of examples of such.
Why all games need not be raging successes is relevant to the expressed dissatisfaction over atypical choices made in some niche appeal games.
There is no need to call out your superiority complex, Asm0deus. Your ongoing blatant oozing of it is devoid of subtlety.
More strawming BS on your part here, dunno get another angle mate and the only one oozing anything right now is you in this sad sack attempt to avoid admitting brainy had a point.
Btw the answer to your question is in the the WHOLE friggin sentence you highlighted only half of. Not sure what kind of stupid you are on about but it is indeed effing stupid and a half arsed deflection at that.
Anyways no point in continuing this conversation as we clearly wont agree and you clearly can't debate shit honestly or even admit someone with a counter argument has a point.
I am not the one denying peoples points when they make a valid one, like for example its okay to skip travel if devs are just testing a dungeon itself, in some of their counter arguments showing a superiority complex so maybe stop deflecting and projecting your own issues.
Anyways I am done here there's no point in continuing to reply to your very, very asinine responses.
SMH havent read this much stupid in here for along time now. You're right up there with smiley boy that's no longer here.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
No, I absolutely think there are other opinions and tastes. I've always said that for all my years. My issue is that developers are making their games, the games they want and what do we hear?
This is bullshit
The days of Brad the Vision McQuaid, where half the Dev team also played the game, are long dead. A Lot of game, and MMO's, went the route of Hollywood Big Money, and are these huge millions upon millions of dollar productions, they are not made by gaming geeks anymore, they are made by people looking for a payout
That means they are not making the game they want, they are making the game they think we will spend a lot of money on
and all the big mouth non-players that have endless time to mouth vomit all over the internet, where they wax poetically about great the old games were, during a time and place where they may have mattered, at least a little.
Pity they stopped playing those games, for "reasons" just like they will stop playing any new game with those mechanics for "reasons"
The reasons simply being, they began to become forgotten, irrelevant, the world expanded and they got swallowed, or it shrunk to clique that didn't include them, and it dawned on them, they were not as important as they thought they were
Wanna know why they really left? Because without that feeling of being a somebody to keep them logging and socializing, they stopped playing because the actual game mechanics themselves sucked
Yah
That's why they don't play those games they say they loved sooo much
Like those 40 year old former jocks that still try to slip on their old Leatherman jacket, or join some local softball team, to recap their glory days when they perceived clout, even if they didn't
But... they never fucking shut up about how great those old games were, but they don't play the old games, and they don't play the new ones based on them
Want to know where the real market is? Go ask the people playing the fucking games, what they enjoy, and not just playing, go ask the people dropping money into their games
Want to really build a great game, have the CS team log-in and chat with the paying players of successful games, hit up the whales as well as mid range payers, and ask them what they want, what keeps them logging in, what do they play this game.
in-game, not on forums or message boards, but in the fucking game, because that is where the payers who love the game itself are, they are playing games, not pissing their game time away on forums
This is will never happen, because no sane person would let their competitors datamine their own clients, in a vain hope to pull them away
So they have these forums, where, as we have seen in these comments, a vast overwhelming majority, are people who stopped playing games, or still looking for their ideal game
I'll be honest, I just clocked 8 hours playing GW2 over the weekend, and this post was some fuck around time for to vent a bit
Meh... still Dev's listen to the noise, to people who claim they want that shit, but, is that really want you want?
Nahh, what we want is to enjoy the journey, at least once. That's fun.
Going through the trees, and admiring the realistic water, with currents, the movement of the sun and light, shadows, and all the nooks and spots, and mobs, and loot, and all that fun shit.
When you are on your 200th corpse run.. Fuck the Forest, I want my shit back, and a way to recover and I want it now!
and Devs need to grasp that shit, and stop listing people that be like .. Nahh I love that 7000th corpse run, it makes me enjoy the fucking tulips and shit you put in the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
https://www.sherwooddungeon.com/
I suggested adding Classes and more combat skills. Also suggested a PvPvE battleground area for faction combat... The developers gave me a long "Go back to WoW" post response on social media. This was a while ago when Anti WoW was more extreme back then in the MMO community. looking back on it, it was ridiculous but not just that. The game stagnant and hasnt grown much.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
a very few vocal people get their panties into a wad, cry about how much they fucking LOVE all the features that fucking suck, like slow travel, equipment damage, death pens, lack of maps, needing to eat, avoiding shitting your pants, full loot open world pvp with optional corpse abuse, dong slider scales (Like we are all not going to make the biggest dick we can) and a slew of other really annoying bullshit
They see these vocal voices crying OMG WE FUCKING LOVE some of the most annoying asinine bullshit ever, and saying obvious lies like "I would spend Soooo much money if they made a game like that!"
They will cite one game that somehow didn't face fuck the earth upon launch, as their flag ship of greatness, often enough, and unironically, a game they either have not played or no longer play, for "reasons" which, have nothing to do with the sucktastic mechanics, or "It just wasn't done right!"
Dev see this and go.. "OMFG Look at that Untapped market of endless cash they will throw at us if we make that kind of shit game"
and it face fucks the earth on launch, their investors are like "Fix this shit or we cut your balls off"
So lo and behold.. all those lovely mechanics that they put that made the game suck huge hairy balls, that they put in, because they were duped to believe that is what players want... go right the fuck out the window as they try to scramble and save their game, and thus their job and livelihood.
Leaving all the players with any common sense going "The absolute fuck is wrong with you dumbasses?"
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Omg they’re testing. There is no reason they should have to test/ show off parts of the game that don’t require it. The idea that you and brainy don’t understand this is staggering.
now if we were talking about actual daily play, not development, then there would be a point here.
Even I, who prefers less fast travel, would not be showing travel to a place I wanted to feature or test.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Not every game is for everyone. The majority isn't the only market. Games with niche appeal exist through well pleasing a very specific audience. Visions are sacrificed when the desire to grow that audience exceeds that of satisfying the one established.
Those that stay a different course get endless critique over their departure form the norm, naturally. God forbid a game be intended to cater to other than the masses.
MMORPGs persist that are quite unlike WoW so it can indeed work out. It is not a path to success in and of itself. The difference offered must still have sufficient appeal to draw enough of an audience to generate the desired profit.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Developers don't need to do anything in response to travel complaints, but can test alternatives at their option. They could also not and instead state to the complainers that perhaps the game being made isn't suited to their preferences.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
They are being obtuse, because they have lost their point, but dont want to admit that they have. So they are twisting themselves into all kinds of knots trying to to backpedal their entire arguement from the start.
Just as many have said, there is a small group of people that hold these beliefs, that are in many Dev's ears telling them exactly the same message. They dont care if the game is successful or not, they dont care if the game sells a bunch of copies.
What is also true is many of these players dont even play the mechanics they pretend to say they want. I cant tell you how many times the devs finally change the mechanic and put the fast travel into the game begrudgingly, then you have these same people are saying how amazing it is. That somehow this implementation is different then people were saying years before when they were pretending it would somehow kill the game if they put the fast travel in.
They are just playing forum PVP and agruing a point for no good reason.
They say they dont like fast travel, yet all their favorite games they play the most have fast travel, Skyrim, Dark souls, etc... Its a joke.
#1: Reds
According to the developers, in UO a single group of reds could trigger hundreds of support tickets in a single evening. They could do this in large part because they could gate from noob zone to noob zone - and be gone before the law showed up. There was a couple of things broken to make that possible, but fast travel is a big part of it.
#2: Trade
Another issue is trade. If you have a market-based economy and people can teleport to the location of goods, then why buy anything at all? The rarest of goods is a quick teleport away.
#3: Map
Choke points like bridges, valleys, or entrances to dungeons become meaningless if everyone can just teleport everywhere. Why not just make the map a series of "rooms" that don't even need to be connected anymore? This is why I don't play FFIVX - it is all a bunch of small rooms between fast travel points.
Fractured Online does have very limited fast travel - ports that will take you to other ports that are on the edges of the continents.
Travel really matters in this game - something worth 100gp each in Aerhen is worth 250 in Terra, and even more in the far reaches of Terra because of the risk of transporting items through the portal (PvP zones) and the time involved.
It also matters when someone is killed by a Pk - I ask where it happened because it lets me know if I need to move along or if I'm relatively safe. There are PK hotspots in the game - and because of the lack of fast travel - you can do quite a bit on corners of the map that are just to far away for them to bother searching. Fast travel would kill that.
For PvP, trade, and map design the lack of fast travel is essential to what makes a game enjoyable to me. That said, the game has to support it, and what I mean is there are items all over the map, even in noob zones, that are valuable to players at every level.
It makes sense for level base games to have fast travel because you have to get past the noob content to advance. Sure, teleport through the poorly designed game world to get where you need to go - the level system, garbage that it is, is a game design choice that ends up breaking other elements.
Developers should be asking themselves: How do I make the entire game world interesting and important to all players of the game for the duration of their stay? IMHO, levels and fast travel are for people who should be designing accounting software and not video games.
I also enjoy saying fuck way too much.
It could instead go to show they are committed to the decision they made. Commitment to one's choices isn't by necessity a flaw. Some consider it a virtue.
Making decisions that solely appeal to a narrow audience doesn't automatically lead to failure. It does lead to a smaller profit potential. Some are okay with that.
People aren't being obtuse over this. They are looking at it from a perspective differing from you own. There is nothing stupid about doing so.
There is nothing delusional about choosing to offer a niche product. It is in fact a business tactic that often leads to success. It can also lead to failure. Risky business is a phrase based in fact.
What is odd is the expected conformance some have that every thing must tick their personal boxes of preference. One could argue that perspective delusional.
All interesting points that illustrate that while fast travel is well suited to some MMORPG games it can be contrary to the play of others.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Developers don't need to jump though the hoops Brainy wishes and you seem to feel reasonable. If he wants something that will do such on command he is free to acquire a poodle and so train it.
Displaying travel makes sense only when travel itself is being showcased. Outside of that it is a waste of time for the presenter and viewer both. Nobody cares how the person showcasing a new dungeon got there.
A decision to minimize or even deny fast travel methods in a game need not be justified. It should be mentioned to prospective players as such is atypical in MMORPGs, but anything beyond that isn't necessary.
Everything about MMORPGs is do as the developer permits, not as they can. This has and will always be so. Extra mobility within a game is not unreasonable for developers to have or make use of to facilitate their work, of which showcasing the game is part.
That some developers are stubborn aholes with oversized egos is entirely irrelevant. To expect them to abide by player limitations in the course of their work, which at time includes showcasing the game, is absurd.
If it was so obvious that games need not widely appeal there wouldn't be so much bitching in the forums over games that choose instead that narrow. Yet there is, so apparently we are not quite there yet.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Did I say you said otherwise? What I said is you seem to feel Brainy's wishes reasonable. Perhaps you should on what I say rather than what you contrive it to mean.
Developers should showcase what they wish to in the manner they desire. It's their call to make, not that of those critiquing from the sidelines.
Sometimes people bitch in the course of making conversation. Gaming forums are an excellent source of examples of such.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
The days of Brad the Vision McQuaid, where half the Dev team also played the game, are long dead. A Lot of game, and MMO's, went the route of Hollywood Big Money, and are these huge millions upon millions of dollar productions, they are not made by gaming geeks anymore, they are made by people looking for a payout
That means they are not making the game they want, they are making the game they think we will spend a lot of money on
and all the big mouth non-players that have endless time to mouth vomit all over the internet, where they wax poetically about great the old games were, during a time and place where they may have mattered, at least a little.
Pity they stopped playing those games, for "reasons" just like they will stop playing any new game with those mechanics for "reasons"
The reasons simply being, they began to become forgotten, irrelevant, the world expanded and they got swallowed, or it shrunk to clique that didn't include them, and it dawned on them, they were not as important as they thought they were
Wanna know why they really left? Because without that feeling of being a somebody to keep them logging and socializing, they stopped playing because the actual game mechanics themselves sucked
Yah
That's why they don't play those games they say they loved sooo much
Like those 40 year old former jocks that still try to slip on their old Leatherman jacket, or join some local softball team, to recap their glory days when they perceived clout, even if they didn't
But... they never fucking shut up about how great those old games were, but they don't play the old games, and they don't play the new ones based on them
Want to know where the real market is? Go ask the people playing the fucking games, what they enjoy, and not just playing, go ask the people dropping money into their games
Want to really build a great game, have the CS team log-in and chat with the paying players of successful games, hit up the whales as well as mid range payers, and ask them what they want, what keeps them logging in, what do they play this game.
in-game, not on forums or message boards, but in the fucking game, because that is where the payers who love the game itself are, they are playing games, not pissing their game time away on forums
This is will never happen, because no sane person would let their competitors datamine their own clients, in a vain hope to pull them away
So they have these forums, where, as we have seen in these comments, a vast overwhelming majority, are people who stopped playing games, or still looking for their ideal game
I'll be honest, I just clocked 8 hours playing GW2 over the weekend, and this post was some fuck around time for to vent a bit
Meh... still Dev's listen to the noise, to people who claim they want that shit, but, is that really want you want?
Nahh, what we want is to enjoy the journey, at least once. That's fun.
Going through the trees, and admiring the realistic water, with currents, the movement of the sun and light, shadows, and all the nooks and spots, and mobs, and loot, and all that fun shit.
When you are on your 200th corpse run.. Fuck the Forest, I want my shit back, and a way to recover and I want it now!
and Devs need to grasp that shit, and stop listing people that be like .. Nahh I love that 7000th corpse run, it makes me enjoy the fucking tulips and shit you put in the game.