No, I absolutely think there are other opinions and tastes. I've always said that for all my years. My issue is that developers are making their games, the games they want and what do we hear?
I'll be honest, I just clocked 8 hours playing GW2 over the weekend,
I called that "Sunday." The weekend was closer to 20hrs, all in a single multiplayer game I've spent $25 on since buying it 7 years ago. (Only just started playing it last June though)
Filthy casual game hoppers and their irrelevant opinions.
I've played and quit a fair number of MMORPGS since my first one back in 2002. A couple I stuck with long term but most were 6 months or less.
Can't really recall many I quit because of particularly onerous in game mechanics though I did welcome WOWs quest based approach after 3 yrs of heavy camp grinders.
Usually I left because the game changed in ways which made playing them different from how I originally enjoyed them, so I moved on, rarely going back to ever try them again.
So yes, I would still play games with some more time consuming mechanics, but getting the balance right is very tricky and of course varies between players as they are all a matter of one's preference.
No quest markers is bearable, no compass or in game map showing where me any my party members are in relationship to each other and in the game world are no gos.
I don't mind having longer travel times in the game world but definitely want faster travel options like hearth stones, horse/gryphon routes, classes which can open portals or blessed teleport markers and scrolls as I found in my first MMORPG, Lineage the BloodPledge.
I'm glad devs don't listen to or design for what's popular, or pay to win, or good for the freemium crowd else every new online game would be Pokemon, Call of Duty, Fortnight, Genshin or Minecraft spin offs.
Now what we "need" are for some games with more retro mechanics to be delivered with good quality and decent content, which actually hasn't happen too often (if at all) in the past 15 or so years.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But... they never fucking shut up about how great those old games were, but they don't play the old games, and they don't play the new ones based on them
We get some of this in Fractured Online.
Part of the problem is a lack of honesty. For example, we get reds that want full loot across the board (it ain't happening) because they remember UO in the old days when they could spend an entire evening on a DSL line terrorizing a bunch of defenseless noobs on dial up modems. (I could be killed before the other player even registered on my screen)
So instead of saying "I want to be a god again, terrorizing people that cannot defend themselves and dry looting them all evening" they claim full loot is needed because it's good for the in-game economy.
None of them can explain how it is good for the economy or handle the fact PvE can provide gold sinks galore or that 99% of the player base doesn't want to relive UO '98. You ask why they're not in Mortal Online, or UO, or some other game and they have no answer - because they cannot be honest and admit what they really want.
So the developers need to weed out these sorts of players from the conversation. They are providing dishonest feedback and they'll be the first to leave your game.
No, I absolutely think there are other opinions and tastes. I've always said that for all my years. My issue is that developers are making their games, the games they want and what do we hear?
I'll be honest, I just clocked 8 hours playing GW2 over the weekend,
I called that "Sunday." The weekend was closer to 20hrs, all in a single multiplayer game I've spent $25 on since buying it 7 years ago. (Only just started playing it last June though)
Filthy casual game hoppers and their irrelevant opinions.
(sic)
Now what we "need" are for some games with more retro mechanics to be delivered with good quality and decent content, which actually hasn't happen too often (if at all) in the past 15 or so years.
I'm not holding my breath.
Yah, my 4 hours a night is weak sauce casual shit to you hardcore mutherfukkers
All shit aside, what "Retro" mechanic do you want?
For me, the forced grouping made playing an MMO akin to dragging my nuts across broken glass, I could not just log in and play, I had to find a group, I had to play a class that was easy to get a group, I had to deal with bullshit, egotism, drama, and some of the most entitled fuckery ever, just to grind out some exp... making the MMO experience drastically worse then playing any single player game
Which is why, during my EQ years, I very quickly started to only group and play with my static (which by no small sense of irony was my D&D group, that would play TTRPG's with, and everyone else, all 250K other subs, could go fuck themselves right off.
Did I find that fun?
Well sure, until my brother took a night shift job, and suddenly we could only play twice a week, and one of those nights was D&D night, and things went to shit. Because fuck all, if I was going to out level him, and fuck all if I was going to deal with pugs again either, so now I am dealing with pointless bullshit and drama that never needed to happen in a game
Compare that to GW2, where I can solo, and be down leveled so I could have always grouped with my friends and family members, makes that old school mechanic suck some giant cockroach balls.
In fact, I'll be honest, I cannot think of any of those "Old School" Pre-2006-WoW era mechanics I want brought back
DDO, 2006, had some cool shit, but most of their cool shit was based on TTRPG D&D, so yah, it was cool shit. They had a lot of crap stuff too, No lie
But, while I could list some of the Post WoW-2006 MMO mechanics I liked, What "old School" Pre-Wow, mechanics did you find enamoring that do not currently exist in modern MMO's?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
But, while I could list some of the Post WoW-2006 MMO mechanics I liked, What "old School" Pre-Wow, mechanics did you find enamoring that do not currently exist in modern MMO's?
I can think of some:
UO it was possible to place something on the ground. You could scatter loot all over the place OR create a trapped chest and place it where chests spawn and watch people open them, die, and then loot.
UO had house keys and you could lock your house. It was possible to steal a key and loot someone else's house.
UO where a mage could shape-shift into just about any creature.
UO lockpicking trapped chests, disarming traps.
UO spirit speak spells for communicating with ghosts.
UO cartography, treasure maps, and builds all about treasure hunting.
UO limited spawns of certain creatures such that getting a Nightmare or rare Ostard was quite a find.
UO dye tubs
Nothing really comes close to putting trapped chests, in your house, so that if a thief did get in there you had a shot at killing him. Imagine coming home to a corpse in your house.
Oh that's right, most modern games are instanced housing, no possibility of theft, no need to lock anything or be careful - just a bookshelf for old baseball trophies, basically.
But, while I could list some of the Post WoW-2006 MMO mechanics I liked, What "old School" Pre-Wow, mechanics did you find enamoring that do not currently exist in modern MMO's?
I can think of some:
UO it was possible to place something on the ground. You could scatter loot all over the place OR create a trapped chest and place it where chests spawn and watch people open them, die, and then loot.
UO had house keys and you could lock your house. It was possible to steal a key and loot someone else's house.
UO where a mage could shape-shift into just about any creature.
UO lockpicking trapped chests, disarming traps.
UO spirit speak spells for communicating with ghosts.
UO cartography, treasure maps, and builds all about treasure hunting.
UO limited spawns of certain creatures such that getting a Nightmare or rare Ostard was quite a find.
UO dye tubs
Nothing really comes close to putting trapped chests, in your house, so that if a thief did get in there you had a shot at killing him. Imagine coming home to a corpse in your house.
Oh that's right, most modern games are instanced housing, no possibility of theft, no need to lock anything or be careful - just a bookshelf for old baseball trophies, basically.
a few things.
Dropping Loot would be a lag nightmare in modern MMO's, can you imagine what kind of cluster fuck of a garbage heap game worlds would turn into if players could just drop loot on the ground and it did not go away? This is why it was taken away as early back as EQ1, because having piles of shit everywhere was not good for the overall game environment or the lag it generated
As for People looting your house? That's something you actually want? People breaking into your house and stealing your shit? Since to me, that seems counterproductive, because even if make traps, that ends up being all I can really do with my home, turn it into a death trap, I can't use it for storage or put anything of value in it, and to me, that seems to defeat the whole point of having a home instance to start with. So how does that make it fun for you and a mechanic you want?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
But, while I could list some of the Post WoW-2006 MMO mechanics I liked, What "old School" Pre-Wow, mechanics did you find enamoring that do not currently exist in modern MMO's?
I can think of some:
UO it was possible to place something on the ground. You could scatter loot all over the place OR create a trapped chest and place it where chests spawn and watch people open them, die, and then loot.
UO had house keys and you could lock your house. It was possible to steal a key and loot someone else's house.
UO where a mage could shape-shift into just about any creature.
UO lockpicking trapped chests, disarming traps.
UO spirit speak spells for communicating with ghosts.
UO cartography, treasure maps, and builds all about treasure hunting.
UO limited spawns of certain creatures such that getting a Nightmare or rare Ostard was quite a find.
UO dye tubs
Nothing really comes close to putting trapped chests, in your house, so that if a thief did get in there you had a shot at killing him. Imagine coming home to a corpse in your house.
Oh that's right, most modern games are instanced housing, no possibility of theft, no need to lock anything or be careful - just a bookshelf for old baseball trophies, basically.
a few things.
Dropping Loot would be a lag nightmare in modern MMO's, can you imagine what kind of cluster fuck of a garbage heap game worlds would turn into if players could just drop loot on the ground and it did not go away? This is why it was taken away as early back as EQ1, because having piles of shit everywhere was not good for the overall game environment or the lag it generated
As for People looting your house? That's something you actually want? People breaking into your house and stealing your shit? Since to me, that seems counterproductive, because even if make traps, that ends up being all I can really do with my home, turn it into a death trap, I can't use it for storage or put anything of value in it, and to me, that seems to defeat the whole point of having a home instance to start with. So how does that make it fun for you and a mechanic you want?
Nothing wrong if you don't want these things.
#1: As for garbage on the ground it is a matter of having stuff decay and disappear after a few minutes. It allowed for some interesting things and not being able to put stuff on the ground seems ridiculous to me. I'd use it to hide stuff from PKs when in the wild. UO managed it on dial up, so modern connections should be fine.
#2: Housing theft was an additional challenge in the game is all. IIRC there was an 'unlootable' chest, and then the rest you worked at increasing the level of the lock. This created a market for chests created by high level tinkers. PvP/Markets/Skills were impacted by this sort of thing. You also had people that specialized in getting into houses.
So a friend and I worked thieves for a short time and we stopped a guy in town. While my friend and him talked I snooped his pack and stole his key and his rune stone to his house (if I would have failed in my attempt, the town guards would have whacked me instantly) - it was nip and tuck there, but we got it and went to his house and stole some things.
^--- you don't get anything like that in modern dress up games.
Games today are so shallow, little markers that take you from point A to point B - and glowing icons for THIS IS THE MONSTER YOU NEED TO KILL and color codes so you don't get in too deep. Everyone is entitled to the leather bondage gear outfit, the one that comes with a matching 200 foot whip -- and I won't play them as they're hot garbage.
But, while I could list some of the Post WoW-2006 MMO mechanics I liked, What "old School" Pre-Wow, mechanics did you find enamoring that do not currently exist in modern MMO's?
I can think of some:
UO it was possible to place something on the ground. You could scatter loot all over the place OR create a trapped chest and place it where chests spawn and watch people open them, die, and then loot.
UO had house keys and you could lock your house. It was possible to steal a key and loot someone else's house.
UO where a mage could shape-shift into just about any creature.
UO lockpicking trapped chests, disarming traps.
UO spirit speak spells for communicating with ghosts.
UO cartography, treasure maps, and builds all about treasure hunting.
UO limited spawns of certain creatures such that getting a Nightmare or rare Ostard was quite a find.
UO dye tubs
Nothing really comes close to putting trapped chests, in your house, so that if a thief did get in there you had a shot at killing him. Imagine coming home to a corpse in your house.
Oh that's right, most modern games are instanced housing, no possibility of theft, no need to lock anything or be careful - just a bookshelf for old baseball trophies, basically.
a few things.
Dropping Loot would be a lag nightmare in modern MMO's, can you imagine what kind of cluster fuck of a garbage heap game worlds would turn into if players could just drop loot on the ground and it did not go away? This is why it was taken away as early back as EQ1, because having piles of shit everywhere was not good for the overall game environment or the lag it generated
As for People looting your house? That's something you actually want? People breaking into your house and stealing your shit? Since to me, that seems counterproductive, because even if make traps, that ends up being all I can really do with my home, turn it into a death trap, I can't use it for storage or put anything of value in it, and to me, that seems to defeat the whole point of having a home instance to start with. So how does that make it fun for you and a mechanic you want?
Nothing wrong if you don't want these things.
#1: As for garbage on the ground it is a matter of having stuff decay and disappear after a few minutes. It allowed for some interesting things and not being able to put stuff on the ground seems ridiculous to me. I'd use it to hide stuff from PKs when in the wild. UO managed it on dial up, so modern connections should be fine.
#2: Housing theft was an additional challenge in the game is all. IIRC there was an 'unlootable' chest, and then the rest you worked at increasing the level of the lock. This created a market for chests created by high level tinkers. PvP/Markets/Skills were impacted by this sort of thing. You also had people that specialized in getting into houses.
So a friend and I worked thieves for a short time and we stopped a guy in town. While my friend and him talked I snooped his pack and stole his key and his rune stone to his house (if I would have failed in my attempt, the town guards would have whacked me instantly) - it was nip and tuck there, but we got it and went to his house and stole some things.
^--- you don't get anything like that in modern dress up games.
Games today are so shallow, little markers that take you from point A to point B - and glowing icons for THIS IS THE MONSTER YOU NEED TO KILL and color codes so you don't get in too deep. Everyone is entitled to the leather bondage gear outfit, the one that comes with a matching 200 foot whip -- and I won't play them as they're hot garbage.
A. The garbage was a problem for UO, if in massive quantities. Raph Koster has told the story of a Player who would drop so many items on the ground that any player running by would lag out, making that player an easy kill. They found a way to fix that, but I forget what it was. I think they limited how many items could load to a player, based on closeness.
B. I don't recall an "unlootable" chest. But yeah, they had locks based on skill (making and picking). I do wish that sort of thing can be in a game for that level of game play. But as it was, it was a real problem. Surely there can be ways to make it a viable aspect of game play without causing so much harm to the general player. Maybe more advanced locking systems that can break the key if not done right, along with magical Wards, and very expensive lockpicks that can also break. But I do love the idea of thieves and spies performing special tasks.
C. Per the Dye Tubs, there was also the layers of clothing that fit over top of armor and other clothing, so that a Player could make a "unique" look for themselves, and Guilds could make identifiable uniforms to wear. So many colors, plus a good number of wearable options, allowed for identities that added something to the game. Players often did the same for their NPC vendors, at their houses. Sort of a "house uniform" sort of thing.
But, while I could list some of the Post WoW-2006 MMO mechanics I liked, What "old School" Pre-Wow, mechanics did you find enamoring that do not currently exist in modern MMO's?
I can think of some:
UO it was possible to place something on the ground. You could scatter loot all over the place OR create a trapped chest and place it where chests spawn and watch people open them, die, and then loot.
UO had house keys and you could lock your house. It was possible to steal a key and loot someone else's house.
UO where a mage could shape-shift into just about any creature.
UO lockpicking trapped chests, disarming traps.
UO spirit speak spells for communicating with ghosts.
UO cartography, treasure maps, and builds all about treasure hunting.
UO limited spawns of certain creatures such that getting a Nightmare or rare Ostard was quite a find.
UO dye tubs
Nothing really comes close to putting trapped chests, in your house, so that if a thief did get in there you had a shot at killing him. Imagine coming home to a corpse in your house.
Oh that's right, most modern games are instanced housing, no possibility of theft, no need to lock anything or be careful - just a bookshelf for old baseball trophies, basically.
a few things.
Dropping Loot would be a lag nightmare in modern MMO's, can you imagine what kind of cluster fuck of a garbage heap game worlds would turn into if players could just drop loot on the ground and it did not go away? This is why it was taken away as early back as EQ1, because having piles of shit everywhere was not good for the overall game environment or the lag it generated
As for People looting your house? That's something you actually want? People breaking into your house and stealing your shit? Since to me, that seems counterproductive, because even if make traps, that ends up being all I can really do with my home, turn it into a death trap, I can't use it for storage or put anything of value in it, and to me, that seems to defeat the whole point of having a home instance to start with. So how does that make it fun for you and a mechanic you want?
Dropping loot wasn’t a big deal In Lineage 2 except for cities where some people would make large floor murals with piles of the currency.
A simple fix and players could no longer do that.
Wasn’t an issue. Heck I created several clan events with hidden dropped loot and puzzles for my clan mates to solve and find it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
As for People looting your house? That's something you actually want? People breaking into your house and stealing your shit? Since to me, that seems counterproductive, because even if make traps, that ends up being all I can really do with my home, turn it into a death trap, I can't use it for storage or put anything of value in it, and to me, that seems to defeat the whole point of having a home instance to start with. So how does that make it fun for you and a mechanic you want?
Nothing wrong if you don't want these things.
I am going to start by saying that it is not a matter of if I want these things or not, I think they are abominations, and would not play a game with those mechanics. But that is not relevant to my question.
My Question Was: Why do YOU want these things.
And that really is the kind of question devs should be asking, not simply "what do you want" but also "Why do you want it" which goes back to the aspect of being dishonest behind their motives for wanting things
This allows Devs to understand why this mechanic is desired, and perhaps maybe understand why it went away in general, as well as what would be the advantage to bring it back
Now when we say Devs seem to be morons, I think it is because they do not ask those kinds of deep questions, to understand why any player would want this, what would be the pro's and con's of this feature.
I'm not going to address the trash issue, because I want to talk about housing.
#2: Housing theft was an additional challenge in the game is all. IIRC there was an 'unlootable' chest, and then the rest you worked at increasing the level of the lock. This created a market for chests created by high level tinkers. PvP/Markets/Skills were impacted by this sort of thing. You also had people that specialized in getting into houses.
How does this profit me as the Developer? How does this make for a better game for my players? How much abuse does this open my player base up to?
See, this the real questions and why Devs make bad games
They hear people say "Oh this was such a super cool feature! We should have this one brought back" but they don't follow that up with the deep questions, the Why!
Let's be honest, In a modern setting this would just end with the players that do not want their shit stolen end up demanding the Item Mall carry items that make the homes impervious
We both also know that if the Devs did not abide to that demand, due to "vision" or whatever, those players would leave, maybe not all at once, but they would leave, and take their money with them
If they give to the demands of the players that want Safe Homes, that will just result in players crying that the system was put in purely to price gouge players and make a "Pay to Win" system for player housing, and we both know this as well
So a friend and I worked thieves for a short time and we stopped a guy in town. While my friend and him talked I snooped his pack and stole his key and his rune stone to his house (if I would have failed in my attempt, the town guards would have whacked me instantly) - it was nip and tuck there, but we got it and went to his house and stole some things.
^--- you don't get anything like that in modern dress up games.
Now, this is not a dis, but when I read this, I get the feeling that you both, didn't want your house broken into or your stuff stolen.
I assume, because of that, didn't use your house as what a home instance would be used for, IE: The storing of collectables, valuables, etc. and pretty much just made it a death trap for other trolls and thieves.
At best you may have had one of those "unlootable chest" (Which given what @Amaranthar said is most likely not the case)
On top of that, given what you just posted, I would say your motive to want this feature is purely to steal from other players
See this all about being honest about what you want, and why you want it
But this is the kind of analytical thinking that Devs need to have when they ask about features, what their players want, and why they want them
What is the real motive, and how would this profit/improve their game
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What is the real motive, and how would this profit/improve their game
I owned a house and put theft protection in place.
Why I wanted these things? Because the PvP wasn't just the stuff of twitch monkeys. If you were clever in UO you could kill the most adept PvP player on the server (twitch monkey version).
Current games give me no options because the game worlds are 1 dimensional. The ability to put stuff on the ground, set traps, and other features granted a depth and options I simply haven't found since.
In most entertainment genres, going back to an old IP is a goldmine. Fast and Furious for instance has 10 movies and made over 7 BILLION dollars. Not my cup of tea, but the key to it's success is that they didn't blow up the prior movie and start over, they pretty much just keep making movies that are very similar and the audience keeps going.
For some reason, MMORPGs are different. There are few sequels and most tend to just re-imagine the original as a very different game and just retain the name.
I will die on the hill that says DAoC2, being a faithful recreation of the original with updated graphics, UI and network coding would be a smashing success. With the death penalty. With the long runs through the frontier. With the grinding. With the non-mirrored races and classes. All of it. It was just a great game.
Like @Kyleran mentioned earlier... we haven't really had a GOOD game made in recent times that attempted to mirror old-school game concepts. We instead have gotten low quality games who's main feature seems to be pointing to one or two old-school mechanics as the reason to buy their game.
What is a shame is that Star Citizen could have lit a bright path for this kind of game. It's entire pitch was a throwback SpaceSim that nobody wanted to fund today. They got all the funding in the world based on promises to bring back old-school Wing Commander and turn it online. But instead of lighting a fire for games, it's instead lit a fire to them. Everyone and their mother starts a game promising this old school mechanic or that one, and not a one of them have had the funding and/or talent to pull off producing an actual complete and fun game. Their failures are not due to the mechanics, but do to the poor quality of the product.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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As for People looting your house? That's something you actually want? People breaking into your house and stealing your shit? Since to me, that seems counterproductive, because even if make traps, that ends up being all I can really do with my home, turn it into a death trap, I can't use it for storage or put anything of value in it, and to me, that seems to defeat the whole point of having a home instance to start with. So how does that make it fun for you and a mechanic you want?
Nothing wrong if you don't want these things.
I am going to start by saying that it is not a matter of if I want these things or not, I think they are abominations, and would not play a game with those mechanics. But that is not relevant to my question.
My Question Was: Why do YOU want these things.
And that really is the kind of question devs should be asking, not simply "what do you want" but also "Why do you want it" which goes back to the aspect of being dishonest behind their motives for wanting things
This allows Devs to understand why this mechanic is desired, and perhaps maybe understand why it went away in general, as well as what would be the advantage to bring it back
Now when we say Devs seem to be morons, I think it is because they do not ask those kinds of deep questions, to understand why any player would want this, what would be the pro's and con's of this feature.
I'm not going to address the trash issue, because I want to talk about housing.
#2: Housing theft was an additional challenge in the game is all. IIRC there was an 'unlootable' chest, and then the rest you worked at increasing the level of the lock. This created a market for chests created by high level tinkers. PvP/Markets/Skills were impacted by this sort of thing. You also had people that specialized in getting into houses.
How does this profit me as the Developer? How does this make for a better game for my players? How much abuse does this open my player base up to?
See, this the real questions and why Devs make bad games
They hear people say "Oh this was such a super cool feature! We should have this one brought back" but they don't follow that up with the deep questions, the Why!
Let's be honest, In a modern setting this would just end with the players that do not want their shit stolen end up demanding the Item Mall carry items that make the homes impervious
We both also know that if the Devs did not abide to that demand, due to "vision" or whatever, those players would leave, maybe not all at once, but they would leave, and take their money with them
If they give to the demands of the players that want Safe Homes, that will just result in players crying that the system was put in purely to price gouge players and make a "Pay to Win" system for player housing, and we both know this as well
So a friend and I worked thieves for a short time and we stopped a guy in town. While my friend and him talked I snooped his pack and stole his key and his rune stone to his house (if I would have failed in my attempt, the town guards would have whacked me instantly) - it was nip and tuck there, but we got it and went to his house and stole some things.
^--- you don't get anything like that in modern dress up games.
Now, this is not a dis, but when I read this, I get the feeling that you both, didn't want your house broken into or your stuff stolen.
I assume, because of that, didn't use your house as what a home instance would be used for, IE: The storing of collectables, valuables, etc. and pretty much just made it a death trap for other trolls and thieves.
At best you may have had one of those "unlootable chest" (Which given what @Amaranthar said is most likely not the case)
On top of that, given what you just posted, I would say your motive to want this feature is purely to steal from other players
See this all about being honest about what you want, and why you want it
But this is the kind of analytical thinking that Devs need to have when they ask about features, what their players want, and why they want them
What is the real motive, and how would this profit/improve their game
I think his motive is simply that it was exciting to play, and different, as well as makes the game feel more "realistic." The problem with it all was that there were a lot of problems with it all. lol
I tried to show some examples of how to make it workable, but I didn't go far enough.
Did I say you said otherwise? What I said is you seem to feel Brainy's wishes reasonable. Perhaps you should on what I say rather than what you contrive it to mean.
You previously said this:
b cause they will want to show WHY they want this kind of thing in game and WHY they want to player base to do this.
Apparently you felt some sort of justification should be offered then. Did you forget that earlier assertion or have you since changed you mind?
Developers should showcase what they wish to in the manner they desire. It's their call to make, not that of those critiquing from the sidelines.
Sometimes people bitch in the course of making conversation. Gaming forums are an excellent source of examples of such.
Why all games need not be raging successes is relevant to the expressed dissatisfaction over atypical choices made in some niche appeal games.
There is no need to call out your superiority complex, Asm0deus. Your ongoing blatant oozing of it is devoid of subtlety.
More strawming BS on your part here, dunno get another angle mate and the only one oozing anything right now is you in this sad sack attempt to avoid admitting brainy had a point.
Btw the answer to your question is in the the WHOLE friggin sentence you highlighted only half of. Not sure what kind of stupid you are on about but it is indeed effing stupid and a half arsed deflection at that.
Anyways no point in continuing this conversation as we clearly wont agree and you clearly can't debate shit honestly or even admit someone with a counter argument has a point.
I am not the one denying peoples points when they make a valid one, like for example its okay to skip travel if devs are just testing a dungeon itself, in some of their counter arguments showing a superiority complex so maybe stop deflecting and projecting your own issues.
Anyways I am done here there's no point in continuing to reply to your very, very asinine responses.
SMH havent read this much stupid in here for along time now. You're right up there with smiley boy that's no longer here.
I highlighted the part of your sentence contrary to your latter statement. Noting the precision of my quoting doesn't qualify as an answer to my question.
Did you forget your earlier assertion or have you changed your mind since?
You my question my debating skills be at least I engage rather than evade the questions I am asked while you indulge in avoidance as often as not.
I don't deny valid points made by others either. It is rather clear that you and I disagree on what qualifies as valid in regard to points made.
Be done then. It is not as though there is much difference between that and continuing on in your current manner. No new ground would be covered either way.
No, I absolutely think there are other opinions and tastes. I've always said that for all my years. My issue is that developers are making their games, the games they want and what do we hear?
This is bullshit
The days of Brad the Vision McQuaid, where half the Dev team also played the game, are long dead. A Lot of game, and MMO's, went the route of Hollywood Big Money, and are these huge millions upon millions of dollar productions, they are not made by gaming geeks anymore, they are made by people looking for a payout
That means they are not making the game they want, they are making the game they think we will spend a lot of money on
and all the big mouth non-players that have endless time to mouth vomit all over the internet, where they wax poetically about great the old games were, during a time and place where they may have mattered, at least a little.
Pity they stopped playing those games, for "reasons" just like they will stop playing any new game with those mechanics for "reasons"
The reasons simply being, they began to become forgotten, irrelevant, the world expanded and they got swallowed, or it shrunk to clique that didn't include them, and it dawned on them, they were not as important as they thought they were
Wanna know why they really left? Because without that feeling of being a somebody to keep them logging and socializing, they stopped playing because the actual game mechanics themselves sucked
Yah
That's why they don't play those games they say they loved sooo much
Like those 40 year old former jocks that still try to slip on their old Leatherman jacket, or join some local softball team, to recap their glory days when they perceived clout, even if they didn't
But... they never fucking shut up about how great those old games were, but they don't play the old games, and they don't play the new ones based on them
Want to know where the real market is? Go ask the people playing the fucking games, what they enjoy, and not just playing, go ask the people dropping money into their games
Want to really build a great game, have the CS team log-in and chat with the paying players of successful games, hit up the whales as well as mid range payers, and ask them what they want, what keeps them logging in, what do they play this game.
in-game, not on forums or message boards, but in the fucking game, because that is where the payers who love the game itself are, they are playing games, not pissing their game time away on forums
This is will never happen, because no sane person would let their competitors datamine their own clients, in a vain hope to pull them away
So they have these forums, where, as we have seen in these comments, a vast overwhelming majority, are people who stopped playing games, or still looking for their ideal game
I'll be honest, I just clocked 8 hours playing GW2 over the weekend, and this post was some fuck around time for to vent a bit
Meh... still Dev's listen to the noise, to people who claim they want that shit, but, is that really want you want?
Nahh, what we want is to enjoy the journey, at least once. That's fun.
Going through the trees, and admiring the realistic water, with currents, the movement of the sun and light, shadows, and all the nooks and spots, and mobs, and loot, and all that fun shit.
When you are on your 200th corpse run.. Fuck the Forest, I want my shit back, and a way to recover and I want it now!
and Devs need to grasp that shit, and stop listing people that be like .. Nahh I love that 7000th corpse run, it makes me enjoy the fucking tulips and shit you put in the game.
The majority quite playing older games because the newer ones were easier and more convenient. This is not surprising as most favour the path with least resistance.
Some people continue to play the old games they love so much. UO and EQ remain commercially viable. Private servers of both also continue on for those not enamoured with their current state. Newer games with similar sensibilities come out, some of which endure despite their focus. It's a small audience to be sure exists nonetheless.
So, it is indeed what some... though not many... want. Accordingly the number of games that cater to those preferences is small.
Yet for some reason people take issue with them for not providing an experience more similar to more modern games. If that is what those players truly wanted though, why choose to play a game that provides otherwise to begin with? Why not instead play those modern games with their lusher graphics, greater ease, and abundant convenience. The answer is they chose to play what they want rather than what others feel they should desire instead.
Those with more mainstream preferences are already well covered, having numerous options available, such as the excellent GW2 you favour and ESO I enjoy, along with the ever popular behemoths of WoW and FFXIV and numerous others.
What is the real motive, and how would this profit/improve their game
I owned a house and put theft protection in place.
Why I wanted these things? Because the PvP wasn't just the stuff of twitch monkeys. If you were clever in UO you could kill the most adept PvP player on the server (twitch monkey version).
Current games give me no options because the game worlds are 1 dimensional. The ability to put stuff on the ground, set traps, and other features granted a depth and options I simply haven't found since.
So it's purely for PvP / hostile game mechanic, similar to floor traps in Fortnight
Now see, we both know if a Dev put that into a game, they would just amount to, well, similar to the floor traps in Fortnight
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No, I absolutely think there are other opinions and tastes. I've always said that for all my years. My issue is that developers are making their games, the games they want and what do we hear?
This is bullshit
The days of Brad the Vision McQuaid, where half the Dev team also played the game, are long dead. A Lot of game, and MMO's, went the route of Hollywood Big Money, and are these huge millions upon millions of dollar productions, they are not made by gaming geeks anymore, they are made by people looking for a payout
That means they are not making the game they want, they are making the game they think we will spend a lot of money on
and all the big mouth non-players that have endless time to mouth vomit all over the internet, where they wax poetically about great the old games were, during a time and place where they may have mattered, at least a little.
Pity they stopped playing those games, for "reasons" just like they will stop playing any new game with those mechanics for "reasons"
The reasons simply being, they began to become forgotten, irrelevant, the world expanded and they got swallowed, or it shrunk to clique that didn't include them, and it dawned on them, they were not as important as they thought they were
Wanna know why they really left? Because without that feeling of being a somebody to keep them logging and socializing, they stopped playing because the actual game mechanics themselves sucked
Yah
That's why they don't play those games they say they loved sooo much
Like those 40 year old former jocks that still try to slip on their old Leatherman jacket, or join some local softball team, to recap their glory days when they perceived clout, even if they didn't
But... they never fucking shut up about how great those old games were, but they don't play the old games, and they don't play the new ones based on them
Want to know where the real market is? Go ask the people playing the fucking games, what they enjoy, and not just playing, go ask the people dropping money into their games
Want to really build a great game, have the CS team log-in and chat with the paying players of successful games, hit up the whales as well as mid range payers, and ask them what they want, what keeps them logging in, what do they play this game.
in-game, not on forums or message boards, but in the fucking game, because that is where the payers who love the game itself are, they are playing games, not pissing their game time away on forums
This is will never happen, because no sane person would let their competitors datamine their own clients, in a vain hope to pull them away
So they have these forums, where, as we have seen in these comments, a vast overwhelming majority, are people who stopped playing games, or still looking for their ideal game
I'll be honest, I just clocked 8 hours playing GW2 over the weekend, and this post was some fuck around time for to vent a bit
Meh... still Dev's listen to the noise, to people who claim they want that shit, but, is that really want you want?
Nahh, what we want is to enjoy the journey, at least once. That's fun.
Going through the trees, and admiring the realistic water, with currents, the movement of the sun and light, shadows, and all the nooks and spots, and mobs, and loot, and all that fun shit.
When you are on your 200th corpse run.. Fuck the Forest, I want my shit back, and a way to recover and I want it now!
and Devs need to grasp that shit, and stop listing people that be like .. Nahh I love that 7000th corpse run, it makes me enjoy the fucking tulips and shit you put in the game.
The majority quite playing older games because the newer ones were easier and more convenient. This is not surprising as most favour the path with least resistance.
Some people continue to play the old games they love so much. UO and EQ remain commercially viable. Private servers of both also continue on for those not enamoured with their current state. Newer games with similar sensibilities come out, some of which endure despite their focus. It's a small audience to be sure exists nonetheless.
So, it is indeed what some... though not many... want. Accordingly the number of games that cater to those preferences is small.
Yet for some reason people take issue with them for not providing an experience more similar to more modern games. If that is what those players truly wanted though, why choose to play a game that provides otherwise to begin with? Why not instead play those modern games with their lusher graphics, greater ease, and abundant convenience. The answer is they chose to play what they want rather than what others feel they should desire instead.
Those with more mainstream preferences are already well covered, having numerous options available, such as the excellent GW2 you favour and ESO I enjoy, along with the ever popular behemoths of WoW and FFXIV and numerous others.
Sure, I'm covered. I'm going to play GW2 for as long as it's still going.
But the discussion is not: "Does Ungood have a Game he like to play"
The Question is: "why the fuck are Devs putting out piles of shit games that end up face fucking the earth on launch, what the hell are these people thinking?" Are they just stupid or are they being maliciously misled?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No, I absolutely think there are other opinions and tastes. I've always said that for all my years. My issue is that developers are making their games, the games they want and what do we hear?
This is bullshit
The days of Brad the Vision McQuaid, where half the Dev team also played the game, are long dead. A Lot of game, and MMO's, went the route of Hollywood Big Money, and are these huge millions upon millions of dollar productions, they are not made by gaming geeks anymore, they are made by people looking for a payout
That means they are not making the game they want, they are making the game they think we will spend a lot of money on
and all the big mouth non-players that have endless time to mouth vomit all over the internet, where they wax poetically about great the old games were, during a time and place where they may have mattered, at least a little.
Pity they stopped playing those games, for "reasons" just like they will stop playing any new game with those mechanics for "reasons"
The reasons simply being, they began to become forgotten, irrelevant, the world expanded and they got swallowed, or it shrunk to clique that didn't include them, and it dawned on them, they were not as important as they thought they were
Wanna know why they really left? Because without that feeling of being a somebody to keep them logging and socializing, they stopped playing because the actual game mechanics themselves sucked
Yah
That's why they don't play those games they say they loved sooo much
Like those 40 year old former jocks that still try to slip on their old Leatherman jacket, or join some local softball team, to recap their glory days when they perceived clout, even if they didn't
But... they never fucking shut up about how great those old games were, but they don't play the old games, and they don't play the new ones based on them
Want to know where the real market is? Go ask the people playing the fucking games, what they enjoy, and not just playing, go ask the people dropping money into their games
Want to really build a great game, have the CS team log-in and chat with the paying players of successful games, hit up the whales as well as mid range payers, and ask them what they want, what keeps them logging in, what do they play this game.
in-game, not on forums or message boards, but in the fucking game, because that is where the payers who love the game itself are, they are playing games, not pissing their game time away on forums
This is will never happen, because no sane person would let their competitors datamine their own clients, in a vain hope to pull them away
So they have these forums, where, as we have seen in these comments, a vast overwhelming majority, are people who stopped playing games, or still looking for their ideal game
I'll be honest, I just clocked 8 hours playing GW2 over the weekend, and this post was some fuck around time for to vent a bit
Meh... still Dev's listen to the noise, to people who claim they want that shit, but, is that really want you want?
Nahh, what we want is to enjoy the journey, at least once. That's fun.
Going through the trees, and admiring the realistic water, with currents, the movement of the sun and light, shadows, and all the nooks and spots, and mobs, and loot, and all that fun shit.
When you are on your 200th corpse run.. Fuck the Forest, I want my shit back, and a way to recover and I want it now!
and Devs need to grasp that shit, and stop listing people that be like .. Nahh I love that 7000th corpse run, it makes me enjoy the fucking tulips and shit you put in the game.
The majority quite playing older games because the newer ones were easier and more convenient. This is not surprising as most favour the path with least resistance.
Some people continue to play the old games they love so much. UO and EQ remain commercially viable. Private servers of both also continue on for those not enamoured with their current state. Newer games with similar sensibilities come out, some of which endure despite their focus. It's a small audience to be sure exists nonetheless.
So, it is indeed what some... though not many... want. Accordingly the number of games that cater to those preferences is small.
Yet for some reason people take issue with them for not providing an experience more similar to more modern games. If that is what those players truly wanted though, why choose to play a game that provides otherwise to begin with? Why not instead play those modern games with their lusher graphics, greater ease, and abundant convenience. The answer is they chose to play what they want rather than what others feel they should desire instead.
Those with more mainstream preferences are already well covered, having numerous options available, such as the excellent GW2 you favour and ESO I enjoy, along with the ever popular behemoths of WoW and FFXIV and numerous others.
Sure, I'm covered. I'm going to play GW2 for as long as it's still going.
But the discussion is not: "Does Ungood have a Game he like to play"
The Question is: "why the fuck are Devs putting out piles of shit games that end up face fucking the earth on launch, what the hell are these people thinking?" Are they just stupid or are they being maliciously misled?
Developers are putting out games that some appreciate and others do not. Even the most popular of games aren't viewed with unanimous favour.
A better question is why can't some accept that tastes very and what one sees as trash another may see as treasure?
Are they just that obtuse such a basic truth eludes them, or are just so consumed by their own preferences that they can't imagine someone wanting other than?
I will die on the hill that says DAoC2, being a faithful recreation of the original with updated graphics, UI and network coding would be a smashing success. With the death penalty. With the long runs through the frontier.
It helped that DAOC had classes that could give 3x speed increases for a group in PVP/PVE. Additionally you could get on a horse and AFK to your destination at 3x speed to pretty much anywhere inside the PVE zone.
Many of these games now only give people like 15-30% speed buffs LOL.
And that really is the kind of question devs should be asking, not simply "what do you want" but also "Why do you want it" which goes back to the aspect of being dishonest behind their motives for wanting things
This allows Devs to understand why this mechanic is desired, and perhaps maybe understand why it went away in general, as well as what would be the advantage to bring it back
Now when we say Devs seem to be morons, I think it is because they do not ask those kinds of deep questions, to understand why any player would want this, what would be the pro's and con's of this feature.
You know what I want more than the devs to ask players these questions. I want a dev that actually already knows these answers because they ask questions their entire life. They are smart enough to understand the customer already.
I am sick of argueing with Devs about how some obvious thing is going to kill their game, and I am sick of watching them be wrong also, with a dead game at launch.
You would think 1 of these game would put an expert on the dev team that already knows these answers. These games are spending millions and they cant find a single product expert.
Why do we see so many of these dev teams going in completely blind all the time.
Sure, I'm covered. I'm going to play GW2 for as long as it's still going.
But the discussion is not: "Does Ungood have a Game he like to play"
The Question is: "why the fuck are Devs putting out piles of shit games that end up face fucking the earth on launch, what the hell are these people thinking?" Are they just stupid or are they being maliciously misled?
Developers are putting out games that some appreciate and others do not. Even the most popular of games aren't viewed with unanimous favour.
A better question is why can't some accept that tastes very and what one sees as trash another may see as treasure?
Are they just that obtuse such a basic truth eludes them, or are just so consumed by their own preferences that they can't imagine someone wanting other than?
You know, if the people that claimed they wanted these shitty ass retro-feature games played and spent money on the new games that put them in, like Mortal Online II and Albion, for example, all would be great in the world.
Legit, all would be fucking prefect!
Those games would thrive, and no one would be wondering "What the Fuck are Dev's thinking putting out this burning pile of shit that face fucks the earth on launch, and they trying to spin the whole thing around to attract us PvE scrubs, the absolute fuck is wrong with those Devs, they can't even get the people that they were targeting to play their shit game, we are not going to play their shit either"
And that right there is the biggest problem, the legion of banshees that raise their voices and spout their bullshit about wanting those mechanics and cry how great those features are, and then when the Devs put them in, then, lo and behold, the people that wanted that shit, don't play the fucking games!
Leaving the devs standing there, holding their balls, now millions in debt, crying to players like me, to save their ass.
And I am going to do it? No, I'm logging into GW2, I didn't ask them to make that pile of steaming of burning shit to start with, and I am not going to play it even as they scramble to put the flames out and make it attractive to players like me.
And yet, if a new game comes out, without any of those really shit old school features, all the whiny voices rise up and cry about how there are no games for them. Well dumbfuck, if you played the games that tried to cater to you, they would exist, and more would exist!
For me, I laugh my ass off at this, because the people that are getting screwed are not me
They are the chorus of harpies that claim they want those features and the devs dumb enough to try and make a game for them
Nothing wrong with wanting those features either, but if you ask for them, and then you just jack off and don't support the companies that make the shit you ask for, what the fuck dude?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
They are the chorus of harpies that claim they want those features and the devs dumb enough to try and make a game for them
I feel like you're hand waving away a bunch of features you don't like by tucking them under this criticism. The criticism is valid, but I don't think it is applicable to all things.
By way of comparison:
Open world games with full loot usually get a very vocal fan club up front but it doesn't take long before the reality of getting dry looted every 15 minutes sinks in and people generally don't hang around. Some people do like this, but despite the uproar it will only ever be a small minority. This is an excellent of example of the screaming fanbois being toxic - and they should be ignored.
However, I don't think including things like "items can be dropped on the ground" or "house keys" or that sort of thing can be immediately dismissed. I don't generally see people screaming for those kinds of things but some of us desire them. Also, unlike full loot PvP things like traps on chests, etc, haven't been exhaustively attempted like the open world full loot thing.
I'm with you in that I also tire of people complaining on the Fractured discord about not being able to kill people in the PvE areas. The mindset that grows angry at someone having fun somewhere else just boggles me. I'd like to see more developers tell people to shut up and leave - followed by a ban - because you don't want these people in any game.
I would like to play a serious PvP game with a long time to kill that had perma-death. I think you need serious repercussions for anti-social behavior and raising the stakes of death would be an interesting test.
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I would like to play a serious PvP game with a long time to kill that had perma-death. I think you need serious repercussions for anti-social behavior and raising the stakes of death would be an interesting test.
I'd like to see more games have hidden stats that you discover along the way, for example, you don't know it but your character has a 50% reduction in damage from lightning. You just happen to notice when you go up against lightning elementals you do better than your mates.
Likewise, I'd be okay (in a game with horizontal progression) if characters had between 80-100 deaths (randomly determined) before permanent death. If you go evil alignment, -20 deaths off your hidden counter, if you go good +10 added.
I think that could add interest and cover deaths due to game crashes and the like.
Houses/Banks etc would be account bound and "leveling" would be easy enough so as to not make it grief.
And that really is the kind of question devs should be asking, not simply "what do you want" but also "Why do you want it" which goes back to the aspect of being dishonest behind their motives for wanting things
This allows Devs to understand why this mechanic is desired, and perhaps maybe understand why it went away in general, as well as what would be the advantage to bring it back
Now when we say Devs seem to be morons, I think it is because they do not ask those kinds of deep questions, to understand why any player would want this, what would be the pro's and con's of this feature.
You know what I want more than the devs to ask players these questions. I want a dev that actually already knows these answers because they ask questions their entire life. They are smart enough to understand the customer already.
I am sick of argueing with Devs about how some obvious thing is going to kill their game, and I am sick of watching them be wrong also, with a dead game at launch.
You would think 1 of these game would put an expert on the dev team that already knows these answers. These games are spending millions and they cant find a single product expert.
Why do we see so many of these dev teams going in completely blind all the time.
I agree with this 1000%
You can check my posting history, and you know that I am a very strong advocate for designing a game with a direct demographic in mind, and then targeting the ever living fuck out of them to the exclusion of all others
But to do that, they need someone who knows their shit, that knows what makes that demographic tick, what moves them, what drives them, what inspires them, and what will keep them around.
The fact that a Developer would spend millions to make a game, and not put a lot of effort into that aspect of the development, is fucking mind boggling
You would think the First thing they would do, is have a target demographic (even if boils down to the game they want to play, like EQ, WoW, Etc) and then focus their efforts towards that one group. If others want to play, great, they can enjoy the game too, but, the game should have a target core player base they want to make their central pillar
But, you're right, they seem to walk in blind, disregard solid advice, and wonder why they have a clusterfuck on their hands.
It really does make you wonder how far up their own asses they have shoved their heads.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Comments
Filthy casual game hoppers and their irrelevant opinions.
I've played and quit a fair number of MMORPGS since my first one back in 2002. A couple I stuck with long term but most were 6 months or less.
Can't really recall many I quit because of particularly onerous in game mechanics though I did welcome WOWs quest based approach after 3 yrs of heavy camp grinders.
Usually I left because the game changed in ways which made playing them different from how I originally enjoyed them, so I moved on, rarely going back to ever try them again.
So yes, I would still play games with some more time consuming mechanics, but getting the balance right is very tricky and of course varies between players as they are all a matter of one's preference.
No quest markers is bearable, no compass or in game map showing where me any my party members are in relationship to each other and in the game world are no gos.
I don't mind having longer travel times in the game world but definitely want faster travel options like hearth stones, horse/gryphon routes, classes which can open portals or blessed teleport markers and scrolls as I found in my first MMORPG, Lineage the BloodPledge.
I'm glad devs don't listen to or design for what's popular, or pay to win, or good for the freemium crowd else every new online game would be Pokemon, Call of Duty, Fortnight, Genshin or Minecraft spin offs.
Now what we "need" are for some games with more retro mechanics to be delivered with good quality and decent content, which actually hasn't happen too often (if at all) in the past 15 or so years.
I'm not holding my breath.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Part of the problem is a lack of honesty. For example, we get reds that want full loot across the board (it ain't happening) because they remember UO in the old days when they could spend an entire evening on a DSL line terrorizing a bunch of defenseless noobs on dial up modems. (I could be killed before the other player even registered on my screen)
So instead of saying "I want to be a god again, terrorizing people that cannot defend themselves and dry looting them all evening" they claim full loot is needed because it's good for the in-game economy.
None of them can explain how it is good for the economy or handle the fact PvE can provide gold sinks galore or that 99% of the player base doesn't want to relive UO '98. You ask why they're not in Mortal Online, or UO, or some other game and they have no answer - because they cannot be honest and admit what they really want.
So the developers need to weed out these sorts of players from the conversation.
They are providing dishonest feedback and they'll be the first to leave your game.
All shit aside, what "Retro" mechanic do you want?
For me, the forced grouping made playing an MMO akin to dragging my nuts across broken glass, I could not just log in and play, I had to find a group, I had to play a class that was easy to get a group, I had to deal with bullshit, egotism, drama, and some of the most entitled fuckery ever, just to grind out some exp... making the MMO experience drastically worse then playing any single player game
Which is why, during my EQ years, I very quickly started to only group and play with my static (which by no small sense of irony was my D&D group, that would play TTRPG's with, and everyone else, all 250K other subs, could go fuck themselves right off.
Did I find that fun?
Well sure, until my brother took a night shift job, and suddenly we could only play twice a week, and one of those nights was D&D night, and things went to shit. Because fuck all, if I was going to out level him, and fuck all if I was going to deal with pugs again either, so now I am dealing with pointless bullshit and drama that never needed to happen in a game
Compare that to GW2, where I can solo, and be down leveled so I could have always grouped with my friends and family members, makes that old school mechanic suck some giant cockroach balls.
In fact, I'll be honest, I cannot think of any of those "Old School" Pre-2006-WoW era mechanics I want brought back
DDO, 2006, had some cool shit, but most of their cool shit was based on TTRPG D&D, so yah, it was cool shit. They had a lot of crap stuff too, No lie
But, while I could list some of the Post WoW-2006 MMO mechanics I liked, What "old School" Pre-Wow, mechanics did you find enamoring that do not currently exist in modern MMO's?
- UO it was possible to place something on the ground. You could scatter loot all over the place OR create a trapped chest and place it where chests spawn and watch people open them, die, and then loot.
- UO had house keys and you could lock your house. It was possible to steal a key and loot someone else's house.
- UO where a mage could shape-shift into just about any creature.
- UO lockpicking trapped chests, disarming traps.
- UO spirit speak spells for communicating with ghosts.
- UO cartography, treasure maps, and builds all about treasure hunting.
- UO limited spawns of certain creatures such that getting a Nightmare or rare Ostard was quite a find.
- UO dye tubs
Nothing really comes close to putting trapped chests, in your house, so that if a thief did get in there you had a shot at killing him. Imagine coming home to a corpse in your house.Oh that's right, most modern games are instanced housing, no possibility of theft, no need to lock anything or be careful - just a bookshelf for old baseball trophies, basically.
Dropping Loot would be a lag nightmare in modern MMO's, can you imagine what kind of cluster fuck of a garbage heap game worlds would turn into if players could just drop loot on the ground and it did not go away? This is why it was taken away as early back as EQ1, because having piles of shit everywhere was not good for the overall game environment or the lag it generated
As for People looting your house? That's something you actually want? People breaking into your house and stealing your shit? Since to me, that seems counterproductive, because even if make traps, that ends up being all I can really do with my home, turn it into a death trap, I can't use it for storage or put anything of value in it, and to me, that seems to defeat the whole point of having a home instance to start with. So how does that make it fun for you and a mechanic you want?
#1: As for garbage on the ground it is a matter of having stuff decay and disappear after a few minutes. It allowed for some interesting things and not being able to put stuff on the ground seems ridiculous to me. I'd use it to hide stuff from PKs when in the wild. UO managed it on dial up, so modern connections should be fine.
#2: Housing theft was an additional challenge in the game is all. IIRC there was an 'unlootable' chest, and then the rest you worked at increasing the level of the lock. This created a market for chests created by high level tinkers. PvP/Markets/Skills were impacted by this sort of thing. You also had people that specialized in getting into houses.
So a friend and I worked thieves for a short time and we stopped a guy in town. While my friend and him talked I snooped his pack and stole his key and his rune stone to his house (if I would have failed in my attempt, the town guards would have whacked me instantly) - it was nip and tuck there, but we got it and went to his house and stole some things.
^--- you don't get anything like that in modern dress up games.
Games today are so shallow, little markers that take you from point A to point B - and glowing icons for THIS IS THE MONSTER YOU NEED TO KILL and color codes so you don't get in too deep. Everyone is entitled to the leather bondage gear outfit, the one that comes with a matching 200 foot whip -- and I won't play them as they're hot garbage.
They found a way to fix that, but I forget what it was. I think they limited how many items could load to a player, based on closeness.
B. I don't recall an "unlootable" chest. But yeah, they had locks based on skill (making and picking).
I do wish that sort of thing can be in a game for that level of game play. But as it was, it was a real problem. Surely there can be ways to make it a viable aspect of game play without causing so much harm to the general player.
Maybe more advanced locking systems that can break the key if not done right, along with magical Wards, and very expensive lockpicks that can also break.
But I do love the idea of thieves and spies performing special tasks.
C. Per the Dye Tubs, there was also the layers of clothing that fit over top of armor and other clothing, so that a Player could make a "unique" look for themselves, and Guilds could make identifiable uniforms to wear.
So many colors, plus a good number of wearable options, allowed for identities that added something to the game.
Players often did the same for their NPC vendors, at their houses.
Sort of a "house uniform" sort of thing.
Once upon a time....
A simple fix and players could no longer do that.
Wasn’t an issue. Heck I created several clan events with hidden dropped loot and puzzles for my clan mates to solve and find it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am going to start by saying that it is not a matter of if I want these things or not, I think they are abominations, and would not play a game with those mechanics. But that is not relevant to my question.
My Question Was: Why do YOU want these things.
And that really is the kind of question devs should be asking, not simply "what do you want" but also "Why do you want it" which goes back to the aspect of being dishonest behind their motives for wanting things
This allows Devs to understand why this mechanic is desired, and perhaps maybe understand why it went away in general, as well as what would be the advantage to bring it back
Now when we say Devs seem to be morons, I think it is because they do not ask those kinds of deep questions, to understand why any player would want this, what would be the pro's and con's of this feature.
I'm not going to address the trash issue, because I want to talk about housing.
How does this profit me as the Developer? How does this make for a better game for my players? How much abuse does this open my player base up to?
See, this the real questions and why Devs make bad games
They hear people say "Oh this was such a super cool feature! We should have this one brought back" but they don't follow that up with the deep questions, the Why!
Let's be honest, In a modern setting this would just end with the players that do not want their shit stolen end up demanding the Item Mall carry items that make the homes impervious
We both also know that if the Devs did not abide to that demand, due to "vision" or whatever, those players would leave, maybe not all at once, but they would leave, and take their money with them
If they give to the demands of the players that want Safe Homes, that will just result in players crying that the system was put in purely to price gouge players and make a "Pay to Win" system for player housing, and we both know this as well
Now, this is not a dis, but when I read this, I get the feeling that you both, didn't want your house broken into or your stuff stolen.
I assume, because of that, didn't use your house as what a home instance would be used for, IE: The storing of collectables, valuables, etc. and pretty much just made it a death trap for other trolls and thieves.
At best you may have had one of those "unlootable chest" (Which given what @Amaranthar said is most likely not the case)
On top of that, given what you just posted, I would say your motive to want this feature is purely to steal from other players
See this all about being honest about what you want, and why you want it
But this is the kind of analytical thinking that Devs need to have when they ask about features, what their players want, and why they want them
What is the real motive, and how would this profit/improve their game
Why I wanted these things? Because the PvP wasn't just the stuff of twitch monkeys. If you were clever in UO you could kill the most adept PvP player on the server (twitch monkey version).
Current games give me no options because the game worlds are 1 dimensional. The ability to put stuff on the ground, set traps, and other features granted a depth and options I simply haven't found since.
For some reason, MMORPGs are different. There are few sequels and most tend to just re-imagine the original as a very different game and just retain the name.
I will die on the hill that says DAoC2, being a faithful recreation of the original with updated graphics, UI and network coding would be a smashing success. With the death penalty. With the long runs through the frontier. With the grinding. With the non-mirrored races and classes. All of it. It was just a great game.
Like @Kyleran mentioned earlier... we haven't really had a GOOD game made in recent times that attempted to mirror old-school game concepts. We instead have gotten low quality games who's main feature seems to be pointing to one or two old-school mechanics as the reason to buy their game.
What is a shame is that Star Citizen could have lit a bright path for this kind of game. It's entire pitch was a throwback SpaceSim that nobody wanted to fund today. They got all the funding in the world based on promises to bring back old-school Wing Commander and turn it online. But instead of lighting a fire for games, it's instead lit a fire to them. Everyone and their mother starts a game promising this old school mechanic or that one, and not a one of them have had the funding and/or talent to pull off producing an actual complete and fun game. Their failures are not due to the mechanics, but do to the poor quality of the product.
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The problem with it all was that there were a lot of problems with it all. lol
I tried to show some examples of how to make it workable, but I didn't go far enough.
Once upon a time....
I highlighted the part of your sentence contrary to your latter statement. Noting the precision of my quoting doesn't qualify as an answer to my question.
Did you forget your earlier assertion or have you changed your mind since?
You my question my debating skills be at least I engage rather than evade the questions I am asked while you indulge in avoidance as often as not.
I don't deny valid points made by others either. It is rather clear that you and I disagree on what qualifies as valid in regard to points made.
Be done then. It is not as though there is much difference between that and continuing on in your current manner. No new ground would be covered either way.
The majority quite playing older games because the newer ones were easier and more convenient. This is not surprising as most favour the path with least resistance.
Some people continue to play the old games they love so much. UO and EQ remain commercially viable. Private servers of both also continue on for those not enamoured with their current state. Newer games with similar sensibilities come out, some of which endure despite their focus. It's a small audience to be sure exists nonetheless.
So, it is indeed what some... though not many... want. Accordingly the number of games that cater to those preferences is small.
Yet for some reason people take issue with them for not providing an experience more similar to more modern games. If that is what those players truly wanted though, why choose to play a game that provides otherwise to begin with? Why not instead play those modern games with their lusher graphics, greater ease, and abundant convenience. The answer is they chose to play what they want rather than what others feel they should desire instead.
Those with more mainstream preferences are already well covered, having numerous options available, such as the excellent GW2 you favour and ESO I enjoy, along with the ever popular behemoths of WoW and FFXIV and numerous others.
Now see, we both know if a Dev put that into a game, they would just amount to, well, similar to the floor traps in Fortnight
But the discussion is not: "Does Ungood have a Game he like to play"
The Question is: "why the fuck are Devs putting out piles of shit games that end up face fucking the earth on launch, what the hell are these people thinking?"
Are they just stupid or are they being maliciously misled?
Developers are putting out games that some appreciate and others do not. Even the most popular of games aren't viewed with unanimous favour.
A better question is why can't some accept that tastes very and what one sees as trash another may see as treasure?
Are they just that obtuse such a basic truth eludes them, or are just so consumed by their own preferences that they can't imagine someone wanting other than?
It helped that DAOC had classes that could give 3x speed increases for a group in PVP/PVE. Additionally you could get on a horse and AFK to your destination at 3x speed to pretty much anywhere inside the PVE zone.
Many of these games now only give people like 15-30% speed buffs LOL.
I am sick of argueing with Devs about how some obvious thing is going to kill their game, and I am sick of watching them be wrong also, with a dead game at launch.
You would think 1 of these game would put an expert on the dev team that already knows these answers. These games are spending millions and they cant find a single product expert.
Why do we see so many of these dev teams going in completely blind all the time.
Legit, all would be fucking prefect!
Those games would thrive, and no one would be wondering "What the Fuck are Dev's thinking putting out this burning pile of shit that face fucks the earth on launch, and they trying to spin the whole thing around to attract us PvE scrubs, the absolute fuck is wrong with those Devs, they can't even get the people that they were targeting to play their shit game, we are not going to play their shit either"
And that right there is the biggest problem, the legion of banshees that raise their voices and spout their bullshit about wanting those mechanics and cry how great those features are, and then when the Devs put them in, then, lo and behold, the people that wanted that shit, don't play the fucking games!
Leaving the devs standing there, holding their balls, now millions in debt, crying to players like me, to save their ass.
And I am going to do it? No, I'm logging into GW2, I didn't ask them to make that pile of steaming of burning shit to start with, and I am not going to play it even as they scramble to put the flames out and make it attractive to players like me.
And yet, if a new game comes out, without any of those really shit old school features, all the whiny voices rise up and cry about how there are no games for them. Well dumbfuck, if you played the games that tried to cater to you, they would exist, and more would exist!
For me, I laugh my ass off at this, because the people that are getting screwed are not me
They are the chorus of harpies that claim they want those features and the devs dumb enough to try and make a game for them
Nothing wrong with wanting those features either, but if you ask for them, and then you just jack off and don't support the companies that make the shit you ask for, what the fuck dude?
By way of comparison:
Open world games with full loot usually get a very vocal fan club up front but it doesn't take long before the reality of getting dry looted every 15 minutes sinks in and people generally don't hang around. Some people do like this, but despite the uproar it will only ever be a small minority. This is an excellent of example of the screaming fanbois being toxic - and they should be ignored.
However, I don't think including things like "items can be dropped on the ground" or "house keys" or that sort of thing can be immediately dismissed. I don't generally see people screaming for those kinds of things but some of us desire them. Also, unlike full loot PvP things like traps on chests, etc, haven't been exhaustively attempted like the open world full loot thing.
I'm with you in that I also tire of people complaining on the Fractured discord about not being able to kill people in the PvE areas. The mindset that grows angry at someone having fun somewhere else just boggles me. I'd like to see more developers tell people to shut up and leave - followed by a ban - because you don't want these people in any game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Likewise, I'd be okay (in a game with horizontal progression) if characters had between 80-100 deaths (randomly determined) before permanent death. If you go evil alignment, -20 deaths off your hidden counter, if you go good +10 added.
I think that could add interest and cover deaths due to game crashes and the like.
Houses/Banks etc would be account bound and "leveling" would be easy enough so as to not make it grief.
You can check my posting history, and you know that I am a very strong advocate for designing a game with a direct demographic in mind, and then targeting the ever living fuck out of them to the exclusion of all others
But to do that, they need someone who knows their shit, that knows what makes that demographic tick, what moves them, what drives them, what inspires them, and what will keep them around.
The fact that a Developer would spend millions to make a game, and not put a lot of effort into that aspect of the development, is fucking mind boggling
You would think the First thing they would do, is have a target demographic (even if boils down to the game they want to play, like EQ, WoW, Etc) and then focus their efforts towards that one group. If others want to play, great, they can enjoy the game too, but, the game should have a target core player base they want to make their central pillar
But, you're right, they seem to walk in blind, disregard solid advice, and wonder why they have a clusterfuck on their hands.
It really does make you wonder how far up their own asses they have shoved their heads.