Noob Slaying Logic

Wargfoot

I'm starting to wonder to what extent the gaming community has been brainwashed by the player killers.

Consider these examples:

#1: Chess pro likes to hang out, incognito, in casual chess clubs and absolutely wreck other players.  He doesn't teach them anything, he just likes to waste a couple of dozen players who have nowhere near his skills, post videos of it online and say silly things like "They knew the risk when they sat down to play the game".

#2: Professional beach volleyball player likes to join pick-up games on the beach with young kids and spike the ball on them for an entire afternoon.  He could play with the other professional players, but he likes to rack up 20 effortless wins in a row right before lunch.

I'd say most people would consider those guys to be arseholes.
Outside of a few practical jokes or doing it once and a great while just to have a lark.

I don't mind reds in games really, and I've even defended them from time to time.
However, online gaming is the only community I know of that this sort of un-sportsman like behavior gets a pass and is even praised.

Can you imagine some of the excuses we see working in any other community?

"LOL, if you didn't wanna get your ass kicked in chess, why you in a chess club?"
"Go cry to your mother and get off the beach if you cannot lose a stupid little game of volleyball"

If you farm noobs all day, you're a bad person in real life.
I'm not sure that conclusion would be anything but totally obvious in every other gaming format.

Sovrath

There are people out there who are insecure and the only way they can feel any validation of who they are is to win over others even though there is no challenge.

This is not to include those who do beat lower level players as part of a game but then move on. 

Wargfoot

Sovrath said:

There are people out there who are insecure and the only way they can feel any validation of who they are is to win over others even though there is no challenge.

This is not to include those who do beat lower level players as part of a game but then move on. 

I think pretty much everyone on the forum agrees; however, I'm trying to figure out how such obvious foolishness became mainstream.

One chestnut I've had to shoot down over at Fractured was the idea player killers are good for the economy.   It seems to make sense on the surface, they're pulling gold/goods out of the economy - until you realize the loot doesn't leave the economy, it is only transferred.

The one I wrestle with the most is the "Risk vs. Reward" claim where they try to get high end resources exclusive to PvP zones or the like.  I know the logic is flawed, but it's hard to put into words.

cameltosis

I don't feel like the mainstream gaming community has been brainwashed by player killers. I feel like the majority of players know enough to both avoid those games in general, and avoid those players specifically even if they do find themselves in the same game.

Wargfoot

cameltosis said:

I don't feel like the mainstream gaming community has been brainwashed by player killers. I feel like the majority of players know enough to both avoid those games in general, and avoid those players specifically even if they do find themselves in the same game.

This is accurate.

I'm just wondering how they can make those arguments and not have people point and laugh.  Why do such bad arguments even occur to people?

cameltosis

Wargfoot said:

cameltosis said:

I don't feel like the mainstream gaming community has been brainwashed by player killers. I feel like the majority of players know enough to both avoid those games in general, and avoid those players specifically even if they do find themselves in the same game.

This is accurate.

I'm just wondering how they can make those arguments and not have people point and laugh.  Why do such bad arguments even occur to people?

I'm not sure I understand.

Are you saying that the player killers have brainwashed themselves into thinking their actions are good?

Wargfoot

cameltosis said:

Are you saying that the player killers have brainwashed themselves into thinking their actions are good?

I cannot imagine in any other activity the beating up of a lesser opponent being the sort of thing you'd brag about in a video or live stream - yet that is regular fare for video games.  Not just doing it, bragging about it.

If you were at a coffee shop with a friend and he started seriously bragging about how he smoked his 10-year-old daughter in tennis you'd be disgusted.  I'd go so far as to claim that it wouldn't happen because some kind of social consciousness would kick in and your friend would know not to bring it up.

It is strange to me the level of self-awareness it totally absent in video games.
I'm wondering how this occurred.

Sovrath

Wargfoot said:

cameltosis said:

Are you saying that the player killers have brainwashed themselves into thinking their actions are good?

I cannot imagine in any other activity the beating up of a lesser opponent being the sort of thing you'd brag about in a video or live stream - yet that is regular fare for video games.  Not just doing it, bragging about it.

If you were at a coffee shop with a friend and he started seriously bragging about how he smoked his 10-year-old daughter in tennis you'd be disgusted.  I'd go so far as to claim that it wouldn't happen because some kind of social consciousness would kick in and your friend would know not to bring it up.

It is strange to me the level of self-awareness it totally absent in video games.
I'm wondering how this occurred.

I believe I’ve already answered this. They have issues.

olepi

I call it the Mortal Kombat Kiddies. Once they started playing MMO's, everything went to H....

Brainy

Wargfoot said:?

I cannot imagine in any other activity the beating up of a lesser opponent being the sort of thing you'd brag about in a video or live stream - yet that is regular fare for video games.  Not just doing it, bragging about it.

I blame dev teams for not incentvising fair play.

Why doesnt this happen in other sports?  Because Pro's get more money.  Pro's against pro's are highly incentivised.  This goes all the way from the bottom, as you move up from little league, every tier is more prestigious.  So all the people that want real competition play at their optimum level.

I am sure some fool would love to join a teeball team and beast down some 4-7 year olds, but that wouldnt be tolerated.

In MMO's you have these ingrates that hang out with Dev teams and are extremely vocal on the forums/discord, so they become friends with the Devs.  The dev teams protect them, give them hookups and want to be part of thier little click.  I have seen dev teams cheat for them.

Then you have situatoins like that UO VP that put in the PVE zone, who now cant sleep at night and wishes he could have been able to keep the 1% of turds that were killing the game.  I am sure they rib him all the time on forums saying he killed UO, even though UO doubled in players and had high retention after the patch.

Hengist

Brainy said:

Wargfoot said:?

I cannot imagine in any other activity the beating up of a lesser opponent being the sort of thing you'd brag about in a video or live stream - yet that is regular fare for video games.  Not just doing it, bragging about it.

In MMO's you have these ingrates that hang out with Dev teams and are extremely vocal on the forums/discord, so they become friends with the Devs.  The dev teams protect them, give them hookups and want to be part of thier little click.  I have seen dev teams cheat for them.

That I can see as unfair or not sporting.


What I haven't seen, other than the complaints about it, is a solution.


Player A is good at PvP, spends a lot of time doing it. How does he insure that he gets to always compete against people who have the same investment level?


Is a game like WoW wrong because you can lock your character to a certain level and then essentially twink your character? Is that unfair to the player who is playing for the first time leveling? What's the solution?


The reality, is most PvPer's would really rather be tested, and play against other people of the same skill, ability, and gear. That's when you find out if you are good or not. Playing against people of lesser anything is usually a function of the way a game works.

No, that's not universal, hell, I remember having fun destroying teams when I had twinked characters, but that's because that was the game I was "stuck" in. Definitely didn't seek that out. 

So how do you solve it, and then how do you differentiate between game system failure, and people being buttheads? No offense, life is full of 'em, I'd be shocked to not encounter them from time to time in a game. Why should a game be radically different from life?

Brainy

Solution is simple, and has been solved in other genres for ages.

1) Separate PVP zones and PVE zones

2) Track win/kill rate percentage
3) Put people up against other people with similar win/kill rates.
4) Create arena's, tournaments or other activities where you have 15+ man teams, make it where you can only enter with a team of 5 or less, this way you cant stack the deck with 15.   Then have a matchmaker pair teams and even both sides out based on average win/kill rates.
5) Incentives playing at higher tiers.
6) Randomize to where sometimes the team is 60% win rate vs 40% win rate, but overall keep the average at 50% as much as possible.  This way even bad players have a chance to win.
7) Create some matches where the entire team is newb players against newb players, and Elite players vs Elite players,  do this around 30% of the time at least.   This way newb have 1/3 of their matches are against similiarly skilled players ONLY.

I am sure the top match makers are doing a couple other things, but you get the gist.   This is how you solve PVP beatdowns nonstop.

Ralphie2449

Are you new to online gamers?

A huge number of them have nothing else to feel good about themselves in real life hence why they try to hide in video games and obsess over being l33t inside a fake world, it becomes very clear when their self worth is based on a video game especially when you see them hate on a game but refuse to quit, which if you noticed i rampart in mmorpgs xd

Slapshot1188

Wargfoot said:

I'm starting to wonder to what extent the gaming community has been brainwashed by the player killers.

Consider these examples:

#1: Chess pro likes to hang out, incognito, in casual chess clubs and absolutely wreck other players.  He doesn't teach them anything, he just likes to waste a couple of dozen players who have nowhere near his skills, post videos of it online and say silly things like "They knew the risk when they sat down to play the game".

#2: Professional beach volleyball player likes to join pick-up games on the beach with young kids and spike the ball on them for an entire afternoon.  He could play with the other professional players, but he likes to rack up 20 effortless wins in a row right before lunch.

I'd say most people would consider those guys to be arseholes.
Outside of a few practical jokes or doing it once and a great while just to have a lark.

I don't mind reds in games really, and I've even defended them from time to time.
However, online gaming is the only community I know of that this sort of un-sportsman like behavior gets a pass and is even praised.

Can you imagine some of the excuses we see working in any other community?

"LOL, if you didn't wanna get your ass kicked in chess, why you in a chess club?"
"Go cry to your mother and get off the beach if you cannot lose a stupid little game of volleyball"

If you farm noobs all day, you're a bad person in real life.
I'm not sure that conclusion would be anything but totally obvious in every other gaming format.

Lets be real though...  99.9% of players are not like this.  It's literally 1 in a thousand. And they are doing it because they want you to cry and complain. The rage is what they desire.  "To drink the tears of the carebears". 

So I will never, ever give them what they want.  

Kyleran

Brainy said:

Solution is simple, and has been solved in other genres for ages.

1) Separate PVP zones and PVE zones

2) Track win/kill rate percentage
3) Put people up against other people with similar win/kill rates.
4) Create arena's, tournaments or other activities where you have 15+ man teams, make it where you can only enter with a team of 5 or less, this way you cant stack the deck with 15.   Then have a matchmaker pair teams and even both sides out based on average win/kill rates.
5) Incentives playing at higher tiers.
6) Randomize to where sometimes the team is 60% win rate vs 40% win rate, but overall keep the average at 50% as much as possible.  This way even bad players have a chance to win.
7) Create some matches where the entire team is newb players against newb players, and Elite players vs Elite players,  do this around 30% of the time at least.   This way newb have 1/3 of their matches are against similiarly skilled players ONLY.

I am sure the top match makers are doing a couple other things, but you get the gist.   This is how you solve PVP beatdowns nonstop.

I think Guild Wars 1 had some sort of tiered ranking system similar to what you described.

Amaranthar

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

There are people out there who are insecure and the only way they can feel any validation of who they are is to win over others even though there is no challenge.

This is not to include those who do beat lower level players as part of a game but then move on. 

I think pretty much everyone on the forum agrees; however, I'm trying to figure out how such obvious foolishness became mainstream.

One chestnut I've had to shoot down over at Fractured was the idea player killers are good for the economy.   It seems to make sense on the surface, they're pulling gold/goods out of the economy - until you realize the loot doesn't leave the economy, it is only transferred.

The one I wrestle with the most is the "Risk vs. Reward" claim where they try to get high end resources exclusive to PvP zones or the like.  I know the logic is flawed, but it's hard to put into words.

To your last paragraph, what's wrong with it is that it makes PvE'ers lower class customers. 

It's that simple. 

Another point is that the PvPers, by virtue of greater rewards (especially if in resources) can advance faster with their crafters too. And they naturally have more money because of it too. They tend to be the top players all the way around (gear, housing, and coin, because of those special rewards. 

Wargfoot

Amaranthar said:

Wargfoot said:

Sovrath said:

There are people out there who are insecure and the only way they can feel any validation of who they are is to win over others even though there is no challenge.

This is not to include those who do beat lower level players as part of a game but then move on. 

I think pretty much everyone on the forum agrees; however, I'm trying to figure out how such obvious foolishness became mainstream.

One chestnut I've had to shoot down over at Fractured was the idea player killers are good for the economy.   It seems to make sense on the surface, they're pulling gold/goods out of the economy - until you realize the loot doesn't leave the economy, it is only transferred.

The one I wrestle with the most is the "Risk vs. Reward" claim where they try to get high end resources exclusive to PvP zones or the like.  I know the logic is flawed, but it's hard to put into words.

To your last paragraph, what's wrong with it is that it makes PvE'ers lower class customers. 

It's that simple. 

Another point is that the PvPers, by virtue of greater rewards (especially if in resources) can advance faster with their crafters too. And they naturally have more money because of it too. They tend to be the top players all the way around (gear, housing, and coin, because of those special rewards. 

Thank you, it didn't sit right and I couldn't get my head wrapped around it.

Wargfoot

Ralphie2449 said:

Are you new to online gamers?

A huge number of them have nothing else to feel good about themselves in real life hence why they try to hide in video games and obsess over being l33t inside a fake world, it becomes very clear when their self worth is based on a video game especially when you see them hate on a game but refuse to quit, which if you noticed i rampart in mmorpgs xd

I'm not comfortable reading negative motivations into other people, even though I do it all the time.  That said, I'm fishing around for how it became okay to feed these kinds of players - and how lame arguments justifying the behavior manages to convince so many developers to pursue this path.

Going back to the example of tennis: How much of a chance would you have to sponsor an open tennis tournament with no skill/age/gender categories?  The moment you fielded a 10year old girl vs. a 22 year old pro you'd get laughed outta town.  You wouldn't be able to talk investors into sponsering another tournament like that.

Happens in gaming all the time.

Slapshot1188

Amaranthar said:

To your last paragraph, what's wrong with it is that it makes PvE'ers lower class customers. 

It's that simple. 

 

THAT mentality is what is wrong.  Not the game.  The mentality that YOU are a lesser class customer because YOU prefer a different gaming style than the game provides.  It would be quite different if the game CHANGED and added a PvP focus, but when you join a game that has PvP and the game says they want to incentivize risk/rewards... you are no lesser a customer than the next guy.  You actually just display a high level of entitlement in wanting a game to change from what they sold.

It's the same thought pattern that has lead us to "forced grouping" so that "solo MMOPG players" don't feel like second class players.  Those same "groupers" get better rewards than the "solo" players and that's so unfair... I pay my $15 (ha ha likely F2P) just like they do so I should get all the same content they do. And their grouping gets the best gear which lets them even do better solo content!

Same discussion at the end of the day.

Sovrath

Once again, if a game has pvp that can affect a mostly pve player it’s a pvp game. Don’t play it and problem solved.

Scot

Those examples were so of Wargfoot, if you are going use a team sport the PvP should be faction V faction or teams in a FPS. If you are going to use chess it should be dueling PvP. There is no real analogy in real life but if there was I assure you the sort of bad players you are thinking of would be there. 

Anyway PvPers geta a bad rep, they are not all the same. In Deathloop after I killed my first guy three times I never did it again because they lose all their Remindium (or whatever). You don't have to be a dick to enjoy yourself.

In turn I can remember many players helping me out in chat or even forums, but yes you get idiots there to. They tend to be very young.

cameltosis

Wargfoot said:

cameltosis said:

Are you saying that the player killers have brainwashed themselves into thinking their actions are good?

I cannot imagine in any other activity the beating up of a lesser opponent being the sort of thing you'd brag about in a video or live stream - yet that is regular fare for video games.  Not just doing it, bragging about it.

If you were at a coffee shop with a friend and he started seriously bragging about how he smoked his 10-year-old daughter in tennis you'd be disgusted.  I'd go so far as to claim that it wouldn't happen because some kind of social consciousness would kick in and your friend would know not to bring it up.

It is strange to me the level of self-awareness it totally absent in video games.
I'm wondering how this occurred.

Thanks for the clarification!

First, I would point out that I have met people who do indeed act like that in real life, it's not exclusive to gaming. Granted, the bragging part may be less common, but it does happen.

Second, as for explanations? There are plenty.

From my personal experience, I would say that competitiveness can be a good defense mechanism for lack of confidence or lack of self worth. If you don't have a good sense of self worth, then beating other people who do have value can help ward off feelings of worthlessness.

The logic (flawed as it is) goes like this: you have value. I beat you. Therefore I'm better than you. Therefore I have more value than you.

The bragging about it is an attempt to get others to acknowledge your value, and therefore make you feel better about feeling worthless.

Other explanations include straight up lack of empathy, a genuine desire to cause harm, sometimes it's a warped "tough love" approach (I won't go easy on you because life won't go easy on you).

Then there are the in-game reasons - you get rewarded by the game for causing harm to other people.

Brainy

Slapshot1188 said:

Amaranthar said:

To your last paragraph, what's wrong with it is that it makes PvE'ers lower class customers. 

It's that simple. 

 

THAT mentality is what is wrong.  Not the game.  The mentality that YOU are a lesser class customer because YOU prefer a different gaming style than the game provides.  It would be quite different if the game CHANGED and added a PvP focus, but when you join a game that has PvP and the game says they want to incentivize risk/rewards... you are no lesser a customer than the next guy.  You actually just display a high level of entitlement in wanting a game to change from what they sold.

It's the same thought pattern that has lead us to "forced grouping" so that "solo MMOPG players" don't feel like second class players.  Those same "groupers" get better rewards than the "solo" players and that's so unfair... I pay my $15 (ha ha likely F2P) just like they do so I should get all the same content they do. And their grouping gets the best gear which lets them even do better solo content!

Same discussion at the end of the day.

I think its your logic that is flawed.  First off, what you are saying is you cant complain about anything unless the manufacturer materially lied or changed the product LOL.

Sorry thats completely BS.

Almost all of these PVP games would completely collapse in population without the PVE'ers.  This is why its OBVIOUS they are suckering in PVE players.

The reverse is also true,  if a game completely bones over PVPers then they can complain.

Your bad logic that if a game has any PVP at all, then its completely fine to bone over PVE'ers, and they should just suck it up, is completely wrong and its you that is showing a high level of entitlement.

Sovrath

Brainy said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Amaranthar said:

To your last paragraph, what's wrong with it is that it makes PvE'ers lower class customers. 

It's that simple. 

 

THAT mentality is what is wrong.  Not the game.  The mentality that YOU are a lesser class customer because YOU prefer a different gaming style than the game provides.  It would be quite different if the game CHANGED and added a PvP focus, but when you join a game that has PvP and the game says they want to incentivize risk/rewards... you are no lesser a customer than the next guy.  You actually just display a high level of entitlement in wanting a game to change from what they sold.

It's the same thought pattern that has lead us to "forced grouping" so that "solo MMOPG players" don't feel like second class players.  Those same "groupers" get better rewards than the "solo" players and that's so unfair... I pay my $15 (ha ha likely F2P) just like they do so I should get all the same content they do. And their grouping gets the best gear which lets them even do better solo content!

Same discussion at the end of the day.

I think its your logic that is flawed.  First off, what you are saying is you cant complain about anything unless the manufacturer materially lied or changed the product LOL.

Sorry thats completely BS.

Almost all of these PVP games would completely collapse in population without the PVE'ers.  This is why its OBVIOUS they are suckering in PVE players.

The reverse is also true,  if a game completely bones over PVPers then they can complain.

Your bad logic that if a game has any PVP at all, then its completely fine to bone over PVE'ers, and they should just suck it up, is completely wrong and its you that is showing a high level of entitlement.

Your logic is flawed. If a person only wants pve then they shouldn't play a pvp game. Not sure where the issue is.

Amaranthar

Slapshot1188 said:

Amaranthar said:

To your last paragraph, what's wrong with it is that it makes PvE'ers lower class customers. 

It's that simple. 

 

THAT mentality is what is wrong.  Not the game.  The mentality that YOU are a lesser class customer because YOU prefer a different gaming style than the game provides.  It would be quite different if the game CHANGED and added a PvP focus, but when you join a game that has PvP and the game says they want to incentivize risk/rewards... you are no lesser a customer than the next guy.  You actually just display a high level of entitlement in wanting a game to change from what they sold.

It's the same thought pattern that has lead us to "forced grouping" so that "solo MMOPG players" don't feel like second class players.  Those same "groupers" get better rewards than the "solo" players and that's so unfair... I pay my $15 (ha ha likely F2P) just like they do so I should get all the same content they do. And their grouping gets the best gear which lets them even do better solo content!

Same discussion at the end of the day.

No, the fact remains that what I said is true. That's a problem for PvEers, no matter how you slice it. The issue is that PvEers go into that game thinking all is well because PvP is separate, but over time they start to realize they are getting the short end of the stick. 

Soloing is a different topic, and can be a lot more complicated, IMO. A lot more depends on how a game is set up for it. 

Amaranthar

Sovrath said:

Once again, if a game has pvp that can affect a mostly pve player it’s a pvp game. Don’t play it and problem solved.

I totally agree. 
Furthermore, game publishers should boldly publicize this issue before they sell their games, just so there's no misunderstanding. 
Right? 

lol