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The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power Season 2 Is Off To A Great Start: Episodes 1-3 Review | MM

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,585
    QMDad2 said:
    I did not say its a 9-10 or even near it. Its a solid 7-8 and that puts it in line with many critical reviews. I am a very detailed cinema and tv critic when it comes to production. I look at things very differently than many people. I look at camera shots, the use of lighting and sound, direction, framing, etc... I absolutely love Wes Anderson movies for they WAY they are filmed. 

    So yes Rings of Power is easily a 7-8 which is a fine rating. I know Tolkien well. I took classes on Tolkien. I studied what Tolkien studied to form a foundation of LOTR. I respect what Rings of Power is doing just like what Jackson did with the films. Neither are true to Tolkien's work but both are solid adaptations. I can enjoy each for what they are. I do rate the movies higher for sheer quality of production, not for loyalty to Tolkien's work.
    You said " I am fleeting with 9-10s"

    Unfortunately like most things these days "critics" are purely political, user reviews will give you a much better understanding of what a show or movie is about. 

    Metacritc critics gave it a 70, users gave it 2.9 which I think the user score is pretty fair.
    To me that indicates 1 of 2 things.  Well actually in this instance I think BOTH are right.

    The first thing that jumps to mind is that there IS a disconnect between the critics and the audience.  I think the critics as a whole definitely are over represented by certain viewpoints.  And some of those folks DEFINITELY judge a property based on how it fits into their own worldview.

    The second thing is that, similarly to the first, there are a number of folks in the general audience who view properties through their own viewpoints.   And they can drum up people to "vote" down (or up) a property based on those same social-political items.

    Too many things today are treated like a "cause" and less like entertainment.
    SovrathWargfoot

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  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,406
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
  • Elidien_gaElidien_ga Member UncommonPosts: 385
    Fleeting in that context means I do not give them (9/10's) out a lot at all. Very, very few things would rank at that level for me. Very few. 

    If you think critics are purely political, then there is nothing I can say or do to change your mind. Not a single word of my feedback, comments, or anything else is political. My views and ratings are personal based out of my enjoyment. 

    Rotten Tomatoes gives is around an 80%, the rating on Amazon itself is a 70-80% as well. 

    User reviews on most websites are meaningless anymore due to review bombing and other organized campaigns based on anything but the content of the show. Most are organized around vendettas that review anything but the show quality and production itself.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    QMDad2 said:
    Sovrath said:
    QMDad2 said:
    Scot said:
    snip
    Might I add a new alternative? The alternative to poor to average new films and TV is good content? It is not just the lore, I have not seen it but a SW fan friend said the best thing about Acolyte was the light sabre fights they were great...nothing else was good.

    I do somewhat agree, we all have dividing lines about what is lore based and what is not, but here the actual quality of the series is in question. Did you enjoy them yourself, how would you rate them? To me if they are not good those lasting memories won't be made, that saddens me.

    You got an awesome by the way for being connected to the missus by the Return of the King. :)
    Oh I enjoyed them because they were Star Wars. I was very critical of them but the enjoyment was there. Everytime I sit in a theater and hear the Star Wars theme, its heaven to me. At the end of the day, it comes down to enjoyment and that's what matters. Like with The Last Jedi, initially I was MEH about it, but the more I have seen it, the better it gets.

    For The Acolyte, I loved the fights yes but it also was an interesting look at the Force but also a mystery which was interesting. It reminded me a lot of some of the darker stories from SW: TOR.  Not my favorite by far but I thought it was much better than many gave it credit for. 

    I love Rings of Power. Sure the acting can be stilted and all of that, and I may disagree here or there, but I get to see the Second Age on screen and that is awesome. I would rate it a 7-8 out of 10 (in line with most consensus reviews) and thats a good score. :) I am fleeting with my 9-10s. 
    People can enjoy whatever they want, but in no way is RoP a 7-8 or fleeting with 9-10.  

    I'm as big of an Lotr nerd as anyone but this show is bad, really bad.  The writing, acting, special affects just about everything in this show is bad and look like a low budget sci-fi channel show.

    If RoP is being rated even at a 7 the original trilogy would be a a 100 on your scale of 1-10. They were made 23 years ago. 

    Again enjoy whatever you want but take off the blinders a bit. 
    That’s the problem here, he doesn’t have blinders on he thinks it’s a 7 and you don’t.

    He’s probably not looking at it the same way you are. And good for him.

    As I said earlier the kids who are watching this stuff and loving it have the right idea.

    But as soon as you get people saying they are nerds or they know everything about a property then that’s when things get dicey. Because they are evaluating this stuff on a whole different level and in some cases have their own detailed ideas about how these things should be.

     I’m thinking the people who don’t really know a property are probably in a better place to enjoy this stuff for what it is and not for what others think it should be.
    That's fair and this isn't a I don't like it you can't like it discussion.   This show is just poorly written,  acting is poor and overall appearance like I said is low budget sci-fi channel show.  

    Hey like whatever you want but you cant take someone serious if they are claiming this show is a 9-10 which is saying its one of the best shows of all time.
    It is poorly written. I don’t think it’s poorly acted though. Working with poor lines can be difficult.

    Besides, I have a pub and bad movie night on Thursdays and have done this for years. I know bad acting!

    The acting is fine. I don’t get the twinge in my gut when I watch it.

    Also, you have to remember that a person saying a show or movie or game is “a certain “ rating has their own criteria. Sometimes a person’s take on a show movie or game is just greater than the sum of its parts.
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,585
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    Wargfoot

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  • Elidien_gaElidien_ga Member UncommonPosts: 385
    I can agree the writing can be stilted at times and the actors do a good job with what they are given. I think the writers tried to develop dialogue in light of Tolkien's work and to make it sound like Tolkien wrote the lines. It just does not work and certain parts are worse than others. The writing is heavy if that makes any sense.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    I can agree the writing can be stilted at times and the actors do a good job with what they are given. I think the writers tried to develop dialogue in light of Tolkien's work and to make it sound like Tolkien wrote the lines. It just does not work and certain parts are worse than others. The writing is heavy if that makes any sense.
    I was watching a video about how Peter Jackson’s movies sound like Tolkien in a lot of their dialogue.

    Apparently they took quotes from other parts of the books and incorporated it into the script.

    I’m betting this series didn’t do that and did what you suggested. They tried to write their own version and it doesn’t work.
    Wargfoot
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  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,406
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    This is an interesting thought - what if they could have launched a new IP (entirely owned by Amazon).  They'd have more freedom and could perhaps create a more compelling story.

    That way I'd feel like I was exploring a new world instead of a bastardized version of one I already love.
  • Elidien_gaElidien_ga Member UncommonPosts: 385
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    This is an interesting thought - what if they could have launched a new IP (entirely owned by Amazon).  They'd have more freedom and could perhaps create a more compelling story.

    That way I'd feel like I was exploring a new world instead of a bastardized version of one I already love.
    I think this is a great thought and question. You look at how long Tolkien's writings have been around, combined with much of the info lives in letters, appendices, etc... and its can be a lot. Add to that the Tolkien himself passed away many years ago and its a complicated situation.

    Compare that to something like The Expanse which is a recently published book series and all the info is in the series and the author's are available for questions and its much easier to adapt. And one of the best series and adaptations ever.
    WargfootScot
  • WargfootWargfoot Member EpicPosts: 1,406
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    This is an interesting thought - what if they could have launched a new IP (entirely owned by Amazon).  They'd have more freedom and could perhaps create a more compelling story.

    That way I'd feel like I was exploring a new world instead of a bastardized version of one I already love.
    I think this is a great thought and question. You look at how long Tolkien's writings have been around, combined with much of the info lives in letters, appendices, etc... and its can be a lot. Add to that the Tolkien himself passed away many years ago and its a complicated situation.

    Compare that to something like The Expanse which is a recently published book series and all the info is in the series and the author's are available for questions and its much easier to adapt. And one of the best series and adaptations ever.
    Totally loved "The Expanse"
    Elidien_ga
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited September 5
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    This is an interesting thought - what if they could have launched a new IP (entirely owned by Amazon).  They'd have more freedom and could perhaps create a more compelling story.

    That way I'd feel like I was exploring a new world instead of a bastardized version of one I already love.
    I think this is a great thought and question. You look at how long Tolkien's writings have been around, combined with much of the info lives in letters, appendices, etc... and its can be a lot. Add to that the Tolkien himself passed away many years ago and its a complicated situation.

    Compare that to something like The Expanse which is a recently published book series and all the info is in the series and the author's are available for questions and its much easier to adapt. And one of the best series and adaptations ever.
    They wanted the brand name and the iconic races/characters but not the narrative or  themes. But ask yourself this would you say yes to a fantasy TV series which was not already a book film etc? Producers would rightly be very nervous about that, putting in a fantasy element (Bewitched was one of the first we may have all seen) is passee these days but making a proper fantasy series would be a different ball game.
  • xanthouscrownxanthouscrown Member UncommonPosts: 13
    Sovrath said:
    I can agree the writing can be stilted at times and the actors do a good job with what they are given. I think the writers tried to develop dialogue in light of Tolkien's work and to make it sound like Tolkien wrote the lines. It just does not work and certain parts are worse than others. The writing is heavy if that makes any sense.
    I was watching a video about how Peter Jackson’s movies sound like Tolkien in a lot of their dialogue.

    Apparently they took quotes from other parts of the books and incorporated it into the script.

    I’m betting this series didn’t do that and did what you suggested. They tried to write their own version and it doesn’t work.
    They had to do their own thing because Amazon does not have the rights to use the Silmarillion. They can't directly adapt everything since they only have permission to use the stories and names mentioned in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and its Appendices. If it isn't mentioned in those works, then they can't use it. That means there are important events and stories from the Silmarillion that are off limits, which leaves a lot of gaps that have to work around.

    https://www.cultureslate.com/news/why-amazon-doesnt-have-the-rights-to-jrr-tolkiens-the-silmarillion

    It's not the greatest show ever, but Season 2 is more engaging, and I am interested to see where it goes. Galadriel is still a b**** though.
    Sovrathcheyane
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,832
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    This is an interesting thought - what if they could have launched a new IP (entirely owned by Amazon).  They'd have more freedom and could perhaps create a more compelling story.

    That way I'd feel like I was exploring a new world instead of a bastardized version of one I already love.

    Its the 21st century mate, creativity like that is very rare......and from a publisher's point of view, too risky.
    Scot
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,585
    edited September 5
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    This is an interesting thought - what if they could have launched a new IP (entirely owned by Amazon).  They'd have more freedom and could perhaps create a more compelling story.

    That way I'd feel like I was exploring a new world instead of a bastardized version of one I already love.

    Its the 21st century mate, creativity like that is very rare......and from a publisher's point of view, too risky.
    But is it really?

    For every Game of Thrones adaptation you have 3 or 4 Shannaras or Legend of the Seekers.

    I think the risk with an existing IP is just has high as with a new one.  Plus it costs a whole lot less.  I mean, the RoP series is going to cost Amazon at LEAST $1B.

    You can throw quite a few non-IP shows at the wall for that kind of money and see if a few stick


    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    Sovrath

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  • AbimorAbimor Member RarePosts: 915
    I'll be honest I'm not thrilled with the liberties taken. however, on just the shows qualities and the fact that I love learning about the history of things I thinks it's been pretty good. I know it's not totally accurate and they have taken liberties but,  just the little choices that can lead you down a different path of life is also really interesting. Erigion is one of my fav zones from lotro also. 
     season 2 episode 1 was really good I enjoyed it. 
    Sovrath
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,599
    edited September 6
    Critics for shows the last few years suck arse and are political shills point blank.  Sorry but you can' trust someone who paycheck and job relies on spouting the party line or be shouted down as a bigot. Frankly I wouldn't trust a critic score further than I can spit.

    It's like news stations some are very pro liberal and some are the opposite.  Also it laughable that this is a "great start"......and more like they can't admit otherwise cause amazon would rather go bankrupt than lose face.

    If concord was amazon's baby they would be spinning how great the game is doing too. The audience score is far more telling than anything any critic can say.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273

    Its the 21st century mate, creativity like that is very rare......and from a publisher's point of view, too risky.
    Which is why relying on your writers to take an IP in a whole new direction as RoP has is rather risky.


    But is it really?

    For every Game of Thrones adaptation you have 3 or 4 Shannaras or Legend of the Seekers.

    I think the risk with an existing IP is just has high as with a new one.  Plus it costs a whole lot less.  I mean, the RoP series is going to cost Amazon at LEAST $1B.

    You can throw quite a few non-IP shows at the wall for that kind of money and see if a few stick

    It is about the recognition of brand and the following that will come to that brand in the new product, it seems that producers see the "no IP" fantasy show as a non-starter. But I think you are right, it is all about nerves and the money, but that's true for commissioning in any media, producers are putting their reputation online and we see that the way MMOs are made too, the WoW template is still king.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,585
    edited September 6
    Yes an IP gets you “recognition “ but largely from those who actually enjoyed the existing IP.  Right? That seems logical.  There is some crossover but I highly doubt many non A song of Ice and Fire” readers knew what Game of Thrones was before the show.  Same with Wheel of Time. Or Shannara.

    So you spend a bunch of money to get the rights to an IP that people enjoy… and then change it to hopefully attract people who are not familiar with the IP.  

    To me it sounds like insanity.

    Either save a bunch of cash by skipping an IP and make something NEW, or follow that IP as closely as possible.  This hybrid concept seems self defeating and that’s being proven out over and over again.


    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    Wargfoot

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  • Elidien_gaElidien_ga Member UncommonPosts: 385
    Asm0deus said:
    Critics for shows the last few years suck arse and are political shills point blank.  Sorry but you can' trust someone who paycheck and job relies on spouting the party line or be shouted down as a bigot. Frankly I wouldn't trust a critic score further than I can spit.

    It's like news stations some are very pro liberal and some are the opposite.  Also it laughable that this is a "great start"......and more like they can't admit otherwise cause amazon would rather go bankrupt than lose face.

    If concord was amazon's baby they would be spinning how great the game is doing too. The audience score is far more telling than anything any critic can say.
    I completely disagree. Its about finding critics you trust and review things in ways you see them.

    Audience scores are more political now. I could care less if someone is angry because of XYZ decision that related to their political biases. I much rather read a review that actually reviews the show than spend 2 pages having to justify female dwarves with beards. I am okay with female dwarves with beards but I want to know answers to the important questions - production quality, acting, story direction, etc...
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273
    edited September 6
    Asm0deus said:
    Critics for shows the last few years suck arse and are political shills point blank.  Sorry but you can' trust someone who paycheck and job relies on spouting the party line or be shouted down as a bigot. Frankly I wouldn't trust a critic score further than I can spit.

    It's like news stations some are very pro liberal and some are the opposite.  Also it laughable that this is a "great start"......and more like they can't admit otherwise cause amazon would rather go bankrupt than lose face.

    If concord was amazon's baby they would be spinning how great the game is doing too. The audience score is far more telling than anything any critic can say.
    I completely disagree. Its about finding critics you trust and review things in ways you see them.

    Audience scores are more political now. I could care less if someone is angry because of XYZ decision that related to their political biases. I much rather read a review that actually reviews the show than spend 2 pages having to justify female dwarves with beards. I am okay with female dwarves with beards but I want to know answers to the important questions - production quality, acting, story direction, etc...
    Critics have become political but you can find trusted ones, so I agree with you both. :)

    Yes an IP gets you “recognition “ but largely from those who actually enjoyed the existing IP.  Right? That seems logical.  There is some crossover but I highly doubt many non A song of Ice and Fire” readers knew what Game of Thrones was before the show.  Same with Wheel of Time. Or Shannara.

    So you spend a bunch of money to get the rights to an IP that people enjoy… and then change it to hopefully attract people who are not familiar with the IP.  

    To me it sounds like insanity.

    Either save a bunch of cash by skipping an IP and make something NEW, or follow that IP as closely as possible.  This hybrid concept seems self defeating and that’s being proven out over and over again.


    It is a balance between giving fans what they want and widening appeal to a larger audience. That is a very tricky path, what they try to do is ensure fans will be happy with the changes.

    So more of the main characters goes down well. Let me give you an example, Agatha Christie often had protagonists starting and running with the case before Poirot steps in. TV and film adaptations typically do away with that and bring in Poirot front and centre.

    On the other hand if you start to change a main protagonists character because of modern sensibilities you are walking on quicksand. Not saying it cannot be done, but that is a minefield. Same goes for role, changing Galadriel into a warrior was a big misstep in my eyes.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,832
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    This is an interesting thought - what if they could have launched a new IP (entirely owned by Amazon).  They'd have more freedom and could perhaps create a more compelling story.

    That way I'd feel like I was exploring a new world instead of a bastardized version of one I already love.

    Its the 21st century mate, creativity like that is very rare......and from a publisher's point of view, too risky.
    But is it really?

    For every Game of Thrones adaptation you have 3 or 4 Shannaras or Legend of the Seekers.

    I think the risk with an existing IP is just has high as with a new one.  Plus it costs a whole lot less.  I mean, the RoP series is going to cost Amazon at LEAST $1B.

    You can throw quite a few non-IP shows at the wall for that kind of money and see if a few stick



    I do think that level of creativity is indeed rare, and going with an existing IP is safer.


    Do you risk upseting the existing fan base? Sure, ofc, and it often happens. But for the majority of films or games, that existing fan base is gonna buy/watch it anyway, you get their money upfront which is why I consider it safer. It's much easier to sell something to existing fans than it is to generate new fans.


    With a new product where you're looking for long term committment - like an MMORPG or TV series - the risk goes up. If you aren't faithful to the source material, those fans aren't going to stick around long enough for you to get your money.



    Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of creating new IPs. I just don't think big companies are particularly good at it. In my experience, so many new IPs, particularly in gaming, just end up being exceedingly generic. That generic-ness ends up putting players off. Its not coincidence that virtually all of the most successful MMOs are based off existing IPs.



    As to Amazon's ROP pricetag - can't really use that as a guideline. LotR has gotta be one of the most expensive IPs out there. I also think Amazon got ripped off (tho, can't blame the rights holders, I'd charge Amazon as much as I possibly could too!!!). There's a whole boatload of quality IPs out there that haven't been adapted yet, could probably pick them up for quite cheap.
    Scot
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,585
    edited September 7
    Again though… why pay all that money for something you want to change?  If you want all the existing fans then give them what they want.  And expect to pickup new people that are now exposed to it.  Paying millions for an IP and then changing it to appeal to people who don’t like that IP seems insane.
    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 17,585
    @lotrlore

    How are you feeling now that season 2 is over?  Still positive?  

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  • TerazonTerazon Member RarePosts: 407
    Awesome season 
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    I think the most difficult thing for ROP to overcome is the history of the IP.

    I've read The Hobbit and LOTR and even played the LOTRO game for a couple of years, so watching those films feels like visiting home.  The new stuff is uncharted territory, so I'm not nearly as invested in it.  
    If the IP is the baggage then I will always question if the IP is the proper vehicle for their story.
    This is an interesting thought - what if they could have launched a new IP (entirely owned by Amazon).  They'd have more freedom and could perhaps create a more compelling story.

    That way I'd feel like I was exploring a new world instead of a bastardized version of one I already love.

    Its the 21st century mate, creativity like that is very rare......and from a publisher's point of view, too risky.

    It doesn't have anything to do with creativity but more about what level of risk are publishers, developers, producers, etc willing to tolerate. So yeah, your statement on "publishers" is pretty much spot on.
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