The argument has been made that our criticisms are a minority and what we are saying is going no where.
You can of course find rave reviews but there is a reason the MC score is 70 on a site that overscores all the time. While only 37% of viewers who started series one finished it. You can believe this is all about review bombing and I am sure there has been a lot of that, but equally there has been a ton of rave reviews which were quite unfounded.
If you have a taste for fantasy what are you going to watch? I think that accounts for the viewing figures being as high as they are to be honest. It is hardly an over supplied genre.
Just to throw this in here, Metacritic doesn’t score themselves: it’s an aggregate site. The metacritic score is an average score of all the critic reviews it aggregates.
just watched the last episode of season 2, it was awesome...
One of the best shows on TV, get over it, we live in a time of diversity and its ok if entertainment reflects that, it should reflect that...we are all one race, the evolutionary differences we had becuase of the areas our more immediate ancestors lived are disappearing
some of the complaints I have read in here, its obvious the complainer didnt even watch the f'n show
I am honestly surprised by some of the posters here. A book series with mixed critical acclaim on release that captured the attention of the masses and became a commercial hit is given attention in the form of a tv series decades later and some liberties are taken (as they always are when book is turned to film) and a few alleged 'fans' protest to the moon that some religious tome has been violated and the world should burn.
A Tolkien was even involved in the making of the series. I find it weird that no one here wrote these books. Yet the strange need to defend the books exists as it does. I have always found that to be very odd behavior. If it was your own works I would get it. Even your families work.
I will leave it alone as the mightier than thou posters are never going to engage in a meaningful dialog about why they have no right to decide yet strangely defend. Enjoy rereading your books for the one hundredth time. I will wait for season three of a show I think is fun to watch and a joy to visit every week.
One of the best explanations I have seen was from the BBC a couple of years ago:
The impetus behind Tolkien's legendarium was the creation of a specifically "English" mythology that would live up to all the others he admired, and which he drew on to make up for what he thought lacking in his native tradition. At a moment of hyper-vigilance related to cultural appropriation, his mythopoeia is a reminder that, when done well (and that part is crucial), such literary "borrowing" becomes less about assumed ownership – less, even, about homage and preservation – than about honouring the narrative's most elemental desire to be told and retold, again and again. He succeeded so well that his legendarium has arguably now become a mythology of its own, there for the plundering by other writers, screenwriters included.
The argument has been made that our criticisms are a minority and what we are saying is going no where.
You can of course find rave reviews but there is a reason the MC score is 70 on a site that overscores all the time. While only 37% of viewers who started series one finished it. You can believe this is all about review bombing and I am sure there has been a lot of that, but equally there has been a ton of rave reviews which were quite unfounded.
If you have a taste for fantasy what are you going to watch? I think that accounts for the viewing figures being as high as they are to be honest. It is hardly an over supplied genre.
Just to throw this in here, Metacritic doesn’t score themselves: it’s an aggregate site. The metacritic score is an average score of all the critic reviews it aggregates.
Why yes, that's why I trust it up to a point and I really doubt any of the critic reviews were review bombs. I can't be sure of that but I don't think it has been entertainment journalists who do review bombing at Rotten Tomato's.
I am honestly surprised by some of the posters here. A book series with mixed critical acclaim on release that captured the attention of the masses and became a commercial hit is given attention in the form of a tv series decades later and some liberties are taken (as they always are when book is turned to film) and a few alleged 'fans' protest to the moon that some religious tome has been violated and the world should burn.
A Tolkien was even involved in the making of the series. I find it weird that no one here wrote these books. Yet the strange need to defend the books exists as it does. I have always found that to be very odd behavior. If it was your own works I would get it. Even your families work.
I will leave it alone as the mightier than thou posters are never going to engage in a meaningful dialog about why they have no right to decide yet strangely defend. Enjoy rereading your books for the one hundredth time. I will wait for season three of a show I think is fun to watch and a joy to visit every week.
If I have come across as sanctimonious my apologies, I wrote forums guides when Lotro came out on Hobbit etc lore so players would have some idea what it means to play such characters, what their daily life was like and so on. So perhaps I am overreacting here but that's where I am coming from I can't see this 'anything goes' approach as valid.
Art is subjective, fair enough. But what that refers to is how an art impacts a person. Millions might be moved by a painting, but that don't mean an individual is going to be. Maybe it falls flat.
But I think the difference here is... imagine you have this work of art. Let's say it's Michelangelo's David.
Now, we can differ on whether it's a masterpiece I suppose. But what if someone "bought the rights" to it, and started to edit and change any depiction of it? What if over time, they added a loincloth? Maybe tweaked the muscles a bit. Sharpened the nose? What if THIS version is what was depicted in books, or movies, or TV shows?
While folks could theoretically still go visit the original in Italy... but whole generations grow up thinking Michelangelo's David had a loin cloth and looked like this "new" person decided would make it better?
Because THAT is what I see happening time and time again with our classic literature.
In some cases, it's just not possible to make a direct adaption, but FAR too many times changes are made not because they absolutely HAVE to, but because some 2 bit "show runner" thinks they can make a masterpiece greater than the original by tweaking this and changing that.
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Art is subjective, fair enough. But what that refers to is how an art impacts a person. Millions might be moved by a painting, but that don't mean an individual is going to be. Maybe it falls flat.
But I think the difference here is... imagine you have this work of art. Let's say it's Michelangelo's David.
Now, we can differ on whether it's a masterpiece I suppose. But what if someone "bought the rights" to it, and started to edit and change any depiction of it? What if over time, they added a loincloth? Maybe tweaked the muscles a bit. Sharpened the nose? What if THIS version is what was depicted in books, or movies, or TV shows?
While folks could theoretically still go visit the original in Italy... but whole generations grow up thinking Michelangelo's David had a loin cloth and looked like this "new" person decided would make it better?
Because THAT is what I see happening time and time again with our classic literature.
In some cases, it's just not possible to make a direct adaption, but FAR too many times changes are made not because they absolutely HAVE to, but because some 2 bit "show runner" thinks they can make a masterpiece greater than the original by tweaking this and changing that.
Exactly so. I don't have anything about adaptation of literary works. And I know that an imaginary, static medium like literature and an audiovisual, dynamic medium like cinema are two entirely different things with different reqs. Hell, even Jackson introduced a lot of edits to LoTR(in all movies ; the green overpowered ghosts have to be the most visible one) that Tolkien surely wouldn't allow.
But as you said, these edits aren't because of media transit. No. Numenoreans not being ubermensch, Sauron - Galadriel - Elrond(wtf), edits to timeline and sequence of events(more a showcase of bad writing and planning, but still) etc are not "medium transit pains". I can give them the shortening of timeline(things that should happen over centuries happen over weeks etc) because that is exactly that medium difference(and Jackson also used that to great effect).
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that. It isn't just the writers thinking 'we know better' it is how can we flesh this storyline out that was not written and stay true 'enough' to the overarching story that millions already know from the books. It uses appendices, compressed timelines, the input of Simon and added new characters to move the narrative forward. "Where the core of the original lies" as Tolkien said. As has been reported, the sales of the books are up since the show premiered, both in the first season and the second. The third week of the second season 'Fellowship' spiked to number one on Amazon bestsellers list. Same thing happened in season one. The danger of an unfaithful adaptation is that it discounts and devalues a writer's work. Rings of Power isn't doing this, because it has dramatically boosted sales of the books. Basing art off of art is a way to inspire more people to explore the original artistic core. That is exactly what it is doing.
The reason his works continue to sell as well as they do over all these years is because the works are being interpreted into different mediums. From radio dramas, to animation, the video games, to films to television shows and beyond. They live on because they are kept fresh and relevant by new works based where the core of the original lie.
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that. It isn't just the writers thinking 'we know better' it is how can we flesh this storyline out that was not written and stay true 'enough' to the overarching story that millions already know from the books. It uses appendices, compressed timelines, the input of Simon and added new characters to move the narrative forward. "Where the core of the original lies" as Tolkien said. As has been reported, the sales of the books are up since the show premiered, both in the first season and the second. The third week of the second season 'Fellowship' spiked to number one on Amazon bestsellers list. Same thing happened in season one. The danger of an unfaithful adaptation is that it discounts and devalues a writer's work. Rings of Power isn't doing this, because it has dramatically boosted sales of the books. Basing art off of art is a way to inspire more people to explore the original artistic core. That is exactly what it is doing.
The reason his works continue to sell as well as they do over all these years is because the works are being interpreted into different mediums. From radio dramas, to animation, the video games, to films to television shows and beyond. They live on because they are kept fresh and relevant by new works based where the core of the original lie.
That is a very, very American thing to say.
As for Simon, who is he? I mean, did he even talk or remember his grandpa? How do we know that this marring isn't intended and that Simon don't care about LoTR or his family's legacy(=black sheep)?
As for Simon, who is he? I mean, did he even talk or remember his grandpa? How do we know that this marring isn't intended and that Simon don't care about LoTR or his family's legacy(=black sheep)?
While Christopher (his father, who he had a very strained relationship with) was alive the likes of this series would never have got of the ground, Simon is clearly interested in one thing, making the legacy create money. He (and other members of the family) were paid $250 million for series one and two, that is what this is about.
On a lighter note he is a "consultant" for the series I wonder what if anything he has objected to? Maybe they wanted to have a UFO landing in the Second Age, but don't worry Simon stopped them!
As for Simon, who is he? I mean, did he even talk or remember his grandpa? How do we know that this marring isn't intended and that Simon don't care about LoTR or his family's legacy(=black sheep)?
While Christopher (his father, who he had a very strained relationship with) was alive the likes of this series would never have got of the ground, Simon is clearly interested in one thing, making the legacy create money. He (and other members of the family) were paid $250 million for series one and two, that is what this is about.
On a lighter note he is a "consultant" for the series I wonder what if anything he has objected to? Maybe they wanted to have a UFO landing in the Second Age, but don't worry Simon stopped them!
It starts to add up. In short, it would seem that this Simon Tolkien guy is at odds with the rest of his family and its legacy. I also learned that he was an aspiring writer, but failed one and now most likely takes that out on his famous grandpa and his legacy.
As I kept saying, RoP seems intently malicious. Like a directed hate mixed with incompetence.
And everyone dho enjoys it, I am happy for you, but also sad at the same time. Sad because if only you knew what could have been.
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that. It isn't just the writers thinking 'we know better' it is how can we flesh this storyline out that was not written and stay true 'enough' to the overarching story that millions already know from the books. It uses appendices, compressed timelines, the input of Simon and added new characters to move the narrative forward. "Where the core of the original lies" as Tolkien said. As has been reported, the sales of the books are up since the show premiered, both in the first season and the second. The third week of the second season 'Fellowship' spiked to number one on Amazon bestsellers list. Same thing happened in season one. The danger of an unfaithful adaptation is that it discounts and devalues a writer's work. Rings of Power isn't doing this, because it has dramatically boosted sales of the books. Basing art off of art is a way to inspire more people to explore the original artistic core. That is exactly what it is doing.
The reason his works continue to sell as well as they do over all these years is because the works are being interpreted into different mediums. From radio dramas, to animation, the video games, to films to television shows and beyond. They live on because they are kept fresh and relevant by new works based where the core of the original lie.
That is a very, very American thing to say.
As for Simon, who is he? I mean, did he even talk or remember his grandpa? How do we know that this marring isn't intended and that Simon don't care about LoTR or his family's legacy(=black sheep)?
He does remember JRRT, he spent a few years with him, there are photos of them together, he remembers going to church with him, etc.
However, as indeed you wrote, it is no guarantee of anything related to skills or literary talent. As we can see, for example, in the case of Dune once it was taken over by Frank Herbert's son and the resulting poor caricature of the Dune universe. Nor indeed is it a guarantee of creative control against a mammoth global corporation that has given you a quarter billion dollars and calls all the shots.
As far as literary quality, integrity and coherence of JRRT's work go, Christopher was the last person that could be entirely trusted with it. And yes, I know there was some grumbling about his handling of some of the works when he prepared it for later publishing, such as the Simarillion, but to be fair, it was a virtually impossible task, which I think he managed excellently.
However, it is also well known that CRRT had a long feud with Simon Tolkien over the literary estate and it is hardly surprising that it is after CRRT's passing that all these shenanigans were given free rein at the Tolkien Estate. All of a sudden, the lure of vast piles of money could achieve what had been impossible during CRRT's diligent control of his father's works.
So using (Simon) Tolkien's name to justify Amazon's barbarity is just laughable name dropping at best. But it seems to work its magic on some people, it seems. The marketing and PR teams for RoP might be satisfied to know their cheap tactics bear at least some fruit. Thankfully very limited, it seems. Now the only thing we need is to repeat the equally silly name dropping of Tom Shippey and the circle will be complete.
As for Simon, who is he? I mean, did he even talk or remember his grandpa? How do we know that this marring isn't intended and that Simon don't care about LoTR or his family's legacy(=black sheep)?
While Christopher (his father, who he had a very strained relationship with) was alive the likes of this series would never have got of the ground, Simon is clearly interested in one thing, making the legacy create money. He (and other members of the family) were paid $250 million for series one and two, that is what this is about.
On a lighter note he is a "consultant" for the series I wonder what if anything he has objected to? Maybe they wanted to have a UFO landing in the Second Age, but don't worry Simon stopped them!
It starts to add up. In short, it would seem that this Simon Tolkien guy is at odds with the rest of his family and its legacy. I also learned that he was an aspiring writer, but failed one and now most likely takes that out on his famous grandpa and his legacy.
As I kept saying, RoP seems intently malicious. Like a directed hate mixed with incompetence.
And everyone dho enjoys it, I am happy for you, but also sad at the same time. Sad because if only you knew what could have been.
It would seem like mr.Simon is a massive turd.
I would not say they hate Tolkien works or are trying to be intentionally malicious, but if you start by feeling you can take what liberties you like and you do not have good script writers and so on to make what changes you do want to make as authentic as possible then you are headed in a bad direction.
I know you can only trust aggregate scores so far and scoring anything is such a personnel task, but there is a reason RoP got score of 70 and the LotR films got an average 91, they are in a different league. Like you it saddens me because you think what could have been, it is not like Amazon can't be part of the team on a really good series, they were part of The Expanse.
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that.
Mikaela di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni (The Great Great Great Great descendant of Michelangelo) gave the OK for some people to get a chisel and slap a loin cloth on David and make his right arm a cyborg one to show the duality of man and machine.
Guess that's OK.
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But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that.
Mikaela di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni (The Great Great Great Great descendant of Michelangelo) gave the OK for some people to get a chisel and slap a loin cloth on David and make his right arm a cyborg one to show the duality of man and machine.
Guess that's OK.
I guess think making replicas of a famous art work and then making alterations is fine. As long as the original isn’t touched.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that.
Mikaela di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni (The Great Great Great Great descendant of Michelangelo) gave the OK for some people to get a chisel and slap a loin cloth on David and make his right arm a cyborg one to show the duality of man and machine.
Guess that's OK.
I guess think making replicas of a famous art work and then making alterations is fine. As long as the original isn’t touched.
I was trying to make the point that because someone is a descendant of an artist it doesn't really have any correlation to validating a change
Just like Roddenberry Jr with Star Trek. He's not the artist. Wasn't involved in the creation of the art. His opinion doesn't carry any weight at all...
Any more than if Destry Spielberg gave the thumbs up to change Schindler's List after her Dad passes away.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
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But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that.
Mikaela di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni (The Great Great Great Great descendant of Michelangelo) gave the OK for some people to get a chisel and slap a loin cloth on David and make his right arm a cyborg one to show the duality of man and machine.
Guess that's OK.
I guess think making replicas of a famous art work and then making alterations is fine. As long as the original isn’t touched.
I was trying to make the point that because someone is a descendant of an artist it doesn't really have any correlation to validating a change
Just like Roddenberry Jr with Star Trek. He's not the artist. Wasn't involved in the creation of the art. His opinion doesn't carry any weight at all...
Any more than if Destry Spielberg gave the thumbs up to change Schindler's List after her Dad passes away.
But there are two different things here…
Should someone who is a descendant change their ancestor’s work. No. Just as you say. Just because they are related it doesn’t mean squat.
But, if they have the legal right to use that work or change that work then that’s a completely different story.
It’s not like changes are never made to beloved works over the years.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that.
Mikaela di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni (The Great Great Great Great descendant of Michelangelo) gave the OK for some people to get a chisel and slap a loin cloth on David and make his right arm a cyborg one to show the duality of man and machine.
Guess that's OK.
I guess think making replicas of a famous art work and then making alterations is fine. As long as the original isn’t touched.
I was trying to make the point that because someone is a descendant of an artist it doesn't really have any correlation to validating a change
Just like Roddenberry Jr with Star Trek. He's not the artist. Wasn't involved in the creation of the art. His opinion doesn't carry any weight at all...
Any more than if Destry Spielberg gave the thumbs up to change Schindler's List after her Dad passes away.
But there are two different things here…
Should someone who is a descendant change their ancestor’s work. No. Just as you say. Just because they are related it doesn’t mean squat.
But, if they have the legal right to use that work or change that work then that’s a completely different story.
It’s not like changes are never made to beloved works over the years.
I am not in any way shape or form questioning the legality of any of this. They do.
Bezos committed almost a billion dollars to this. He can put in a stargate and have Gandalf pop into The Boys if he wants.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
Yet that, again, is just your opinion. I think the quality is top tier and I am not alone in that. The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work. The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that.
Mikaela di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni (The Great Great Great Great descendant of Michelangelo) gave the OK for some people to get a chisel and slap a loin cloth on David and make his right arm a cyborg one to show the duality of man and machine.
Guess that's OK.
I guess think making replicas of a famous art work and then making alterations is fine. As long as the original isn’t touched.
I was trying to make the point that because someone is a descendant of an artist it doesn't really have any correlation to validating a change
Just like Roddenberry Jr with Star Trek. He's not the artist. Wasn't involved in the creation of the art. His opinion doesn't carry any weight at all...
Any more than if Destry Spielberg gave the thumbs up to change Schindler's List after her Dad passes away.
I mean Rings of Power is based on a last little tid-bid from the Silmarillion. Which is basically just an omnibus of a collection of story drafts/brainstorms of J.R.R. Tolkien working out Middle Earth. The creation, how the races came to be, short various depictions of the First to Third Ages and what transpired. All in a very fragmented way.
It wasn't until much later that Christopher Tolkien tried to write a lot himself and add to it in later releases of the Silmarillion you come to know and after that Children of Hurin.
And still, The Silmarillion itself was a very hard read, because it was just fragments of short stories taking place all over the timeline. There was a reason why J.R.R. Tolkien publisher refused to release the early version back in the day and ultimately led to Tolkien writing the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings books.
So the Rings of Power TV Series has obviously gotten some freedom to deviate from the Silmarillion to create a watchable TV series out of it. Just as Christopher Tolkien has taken artistic liberty himself to add his own to his father's works. Especially with the Children of Hurin book. (which was excellent by the way... much better to read than the Silmarillion).
When it comes to Rings of Power. I both liked and hated Season 1. It was a very conflicted season, with some really cringe and outright bad episodes.
However, Season 2 was much better in my opinion and put the series more in line with the Lore around the actual Rings of Power and how they came to be. Gandalf reveal in the last episode was an artistic liberty taken for sure, just found the name reveal a bit too cringe. But overall.... a much better season and I am actually looking forward to Season 3, unlike how I felt at the end of Season 1.
Comments
One of the best shows on TV, get over it, we live in a time of diversity and its ok if entertainment reflects that, it should reflect that...we are all one race, the evolutionary differences we had becuase of the areas our more immediate ancestors lived are disappearing
some of the complaints I have read in here, its obvious the complainer didnt even watch the f'n show
Godz of War I call Thee
(as they always are when book is turned to film)
and a few alleged 'fans' protest to the moon that some religious tome has been violated and the world should burn.
A Tolkien was even involved in the making of the series. I find it weird that no one here wrote these books. Yet the strange need to defend the books exists as it does.
I have always found that to be very odd behavior.
If it was your own works I would get it. Even your families work.
I will leave it alone as the mightier than thou posters are never going to engage in a meaningful dialog about why they have no right to decide yet strangely defend.
Enjoy rereading your books for the one hundredth time. I will wait for season three of a show I think is fun to watch and a joy to visit every week.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The impetus behind Tolkien's legendarium was the creation of a specifically "English" mythology that would live up to all the others he admired, and which he drew on to make up for what he thought lacking in his native tradition. At a moment of hyper-vigilance related to cultural appropriation, his mythopoeia is a reminder that, when done well (and that part is crucial), such literary "borrowing" becomes less about assumed ownership – less, even, about homage and preservation – than about honouring the narrative's most elemental desire to be told and retold, again and again. He succeeded so well that his legendarium has arguably now become a mythology of its own, there for the plundering by other writers, screenwriters included.
The surprising ancient roots of The Lord of the Rings (bbc.com)
Now, we can differ on whether it's a masterpiece I suppose. But what if someone "bought the rights" to it, and started to edit and change any depiction of it? What if over time, they added a loincloth? Maybe tweaked the muscles a bit. Sharpened the nose? What if THIS version is what was depicted in books, or movies, or TV shows?
While folks could theoretically still go visit the original in Italy... but whole generations grow up thinking Michelangelo's David had a loin cloth and looked like this "new" person decided would make it better?
Because THAT is what I see happening time and time again with our classic literature.
In some cases, it's just not possible to make a direct adaption, but FAR too many times changes are made not because they absolutely HAVE to, but because some 2 bit "show runner" thinks they can make a masterpiece greater than the original by tweaking this and changing that.
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But as you said, these edits aren't because of media transit. No. Numenoreans not being ubermensch, Sauron - Galadriel - Elrond(wtf), edits to timeline and sequence of events(more a showcase of bad writing and planning, but still) etc are not "medium transit pains". I can give them the shortening of timeline(things that should happen over centuries happen over weeks etc) because that is exactly that medium difference(and Jackson also used that to great effect).
But there is entirely too many edits just because "Tolkien needs to be told in the modern language" or, even worse, because "I know better than Tolkien"(what hubris and disrespect!). And the quality isn't high enough to offset these problems. Not nearly so.
The reality is Simon Tolkien was involved in the storyline the show created and it is his family's work.
The featurette 'after the show' for the final episode this season even talks about that.
It isn't just the writers thinking 'we know better' it is how can we flesh this storyline out that was not written and stay true 'enough' to the overarching story that millions already know from the books.
It uses appendices, compressed timelines, the input of Simon and added new characters to move the narrative forward.
"Where the core of the original lies" as Tolkien said.
As has been reported, the sales of the books are up since the show premiered, both in the first season and the second. The third week of the second season 'Fellowship' spiked to number one on Amazon bestsellers list.
Same thing happened in season one.
The danger of an unfaithful adaptation is that it discounts and devalues a writer's work.
Rings of Power isn't doing this, because it has dramatically boosted sales of the books. Basing art off of art is a way to inspire more people to explore the original artistic core. That is exactly what it is doing.
The reason his works continue to sell as well as they do over all these years is because the works are being interpreted into different mediums.
From radio dramas, to animation, the video games, to films to television shows and beyond.
They live on because they are kept fresh and relevant by new works based where the core of the original lie.
As for Simon, who is he? I mean, did he even talk or remember his grandpa? How do we know that this marring isn't intended and that Simon don't care about LoTR or his family's legacy(=black sheep)?
On a lighter note he is a "consultant" for the series I wonder what if anything he has objected to? Maybe they wanted to have a UFO landing in the Second Age, but don't worry Simon stopped them!
As I kept saying, RoP seems intently malicious. Like a directed hate mixed with incompetence.
And everyone dho enjoys it, I am happy for you, but also sad at the same time. Sad because if only you knew what could have been.
It would seem like mr.Simon is a massive turd.
He does remember JRRT, he spent a few years with him, there are photos of them together, he remembers going to church with him, etc.
However, as indeed you wrote, it is no guarantee of anything related to skills or literary talent. As we can see, for example, in the case of Dune once it was taken over by Frank Herbert's son and the resulting poor caricature of the Dune universe. Nor indeed is it a guarantee of creative control against a mammoth global corporation that has given you a quarter billion dollars and calls all the shots.
As far as literary quality, integrity and coherence of JRRT's work go, Christopher was the last person that could be entirely trusted with it. And yes, I know there was some grumbling about his handling of some of the works when he prepared it for later publishing, such as the Simarillion, but to be fair, it was a virtually impossible task, which I think he managed excellently.
However, it is also well known that CRRT had a long feud with Simon Tolkien over the literary estate and it is hardly surprising that it is after CRRT's passing that all these shenanigans were given free rein at the Tolkien Estate. All of a sudden, the lure of vast piles of money could achieve what had been impossible during CRRT's diligent control of his father's works.
So using (Simon) Tolkien's name to justify Amazon's barbarity is just laughable name dropping at best. But it seems to work its magic on some people, it seems. The marketing and PR teams for RoP might be satisfied to know their cheap tactics bear at least some fruit. Thankfully very limited, it seems. Now the only thing we need is to repeat the equally silly name dropping of Tom Shippey and the circle will be complete.
I know you can only trust aggregate scores so far and scoring anything is such a personnel task, but there is a reason RoP got score of 70 and the LotR films got an average 91, they are in a different league. Like you it saddens me because you think what could have been, it is not like Amazon can't be part of the team on a really good series, they were part of The Expanse.
Guess that's OK.
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Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Just like Roddenberry Jr with Star Trek. He's not the artist. Wasn't involved in the creation of the art. His opinion doesn't carry any weight at all...
Any more than if Destry Spielberg gave the thumbs up to change Schindler's List after her Dad passes away.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Should someone who is a descendant change their ancestor’s work. No. Just as you say. Just because they are related it doesn’t mean squat.
But, if they have the legal right to use that work or change that work then that’s a completely different story.
It’s not like changes are never made to beloved works over the years.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
They do.
Bezos committed almost a billion dollars to this. He can put in a stargate and have Gandalf pop into The Boys if he wants.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
See 'The Acolyte' and how it deteriorated the Star Wars franchise.
Some people don't care to see classics destroyed by modern progressive idealogues.
I don't know the extent to which that is happening in either the Ring or Star Wars.
This is just based off what I've heard - I won't be investigating.
That's where some of the fear originates, I think.
It wasn't until much later that Christopher Tolkien tried to write a lot himself and add to it in later releases of the Silmarillion you come to know and after that Children of Hurin.
And still, The Silmarillion itself was a very hard read, because it was just fragments of short stories taking place all over the timeline.
There was a reason why J.R.R. Tolkien publisher refused to release the early version back in the day and ultimately led to Tolkien writing the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings books.
So the Rings of Power TV Series has obviously gotten some freedom to deviate from the Silmarillion to create a watchable TV series out of it. Just as Christopher Tolkien has taken artistic liberty himself to add his own to his father's works. Especially with the Children of Hurin book. (which was excellent by the way... much better to read than the Silmarillion).
When it comes to Rings of Power. I both liked and hated Season 1. It was a very conflicted season, with some really cringe and outright bad episodes.
However, Season 2 was much better in my opinion and put the series more in line with the Lore around the actual Rings of Power and how they came to be.
Gandalf reveal in the last episode was an artistic liberty taken for sure, just found the name reveal a bit too cringe.
But overall.... a much better season and I am actually looking forward to Season 3, unlike how I felt at the end of Season 1.