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Parallel progression

QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
People sometimes debate whether MMORPGs ought to have vertical or horizontal progression.  I'd like to suggest that they're both wrong for older MMORPGs and introduce an alternative:  parallel progression.

As I've played Uncharted Waters Origin, I've observed that there isn't a universal set of top players the way that there often is in theme park games.  The top players at different types of content are very different from each other.  For example, my server has a clear top four players at skirmish.  In overall company level, those four players are ranked 4, 10, 30, and 44 on the server.  The top traders or adventurers give very different lists from that, too.

That's common in sandbox games.  Uncharted Waters Online had a similar effect, as did A Tale in the Desert.  There's a lot of content, but not a canonical order in which it must be done.  Rather, you can pick and choose what you think is most interesting and defer other parts of the game for later--or never.

This brings some considerable advantages.  One of them is that if there are ten different types of things that a player could do next, getting stuck on one doesn't mean you can't progress at all and ragequit.  It means you pick a different one.  That makes mistakes in difficulty tuning far less punishing, and gives developers plenty of time to fix them, rather than having to make everything way too easy for fear that they'll accidentally make one little thing too hard.

The problem with such open-ended content is that it's hard to have enough content for players if they can defer or skip most of it.  That's a killer problem for new games struggling to have enough content for players to have anything to do.  But older MMORPGs that have had several expansions have created plenty of content.  Games like EverQuest or WoW would easily have enough content to pull this off by now if they hadn't deprecated nearly everything that they ever made.

For concreteness, I'll explain what parallel content could be in WoW.  Suppose that when you create a new character, you get sent to a starter zone depending on your race, as the game already does.  That starter zone is still designed to get you to level 10.  After that, all of the vanilla content that was originally targeted at levels 20-40 is rescaled to cover levels 10-20.  Pick a zone and level from 10 to 20 in that zone.

After that, you get to pick which expansion you want to play.  Vanilla content that originally targeted levels 40-59 would get rescaled to instead cover levels 20-29.  The original vanilla endgame would be changed to level 30 instead, but effectively the same as it was in vanilla.  Leveling content for levels 60-69 from Burning Crusade would instead also be levels 20-29.  The original endgame from Burning Crusade would be level 30.  And similarly for every other expansion.

A character would no longer have one universal level.  Once you reach level 20, you have a separate level in each expansion (loosely counting the end of Vanilla as an "expansion", even though it technically isn't).  Go straight for Wrath of the Lich King upon reaching level 20 and you could get your WotLK level up to 30, but you'd still be level 20 in the rest of the expansions.  You could reach the cap in every expansion, but you'd have to level up separately for each expansion.

Gear from one expansion could be used in any other, but with considerably nerfed stats.  Top tier raid epics from one expansion might be okay for the introductory level 30 content in another, but would not replace the need to gear up separately for each.  Also, players should get quite a lot of bank space so that they can easily keep separate gear from each expansion.

One advantage of this is that it makes it much easier to group with other players than traditional vertical progression.  Rather than needing to be at the same power tier on some universal scale, you'd only need to be about the same power in one expansion, not all of them.  Rather than a high level player carrying a low level one, they'd both be able to make proper progression on their own characters without needing any sort of weird sidekick scaling.

Another advantage is that it keeps all content viable forever.  Instead of being unable to play content from one expansion after the next launches, you'd be able to go back and finish it whenever you please.  And it wouldn't require special consideration from "classic" servers to make this possible.

This would also make the game far more accessible to new players who want to join.  They wouldn't have a very long slog through years of content to catch up.  Nor would they have to fuss with content broken by years of power creep or level squishes.  The starting experience could be as good for players who join today as if they had joined six months after launch, and they could quickly get to the latest endgame if they want to.
cameltosis

Comments

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,831
    I'm not certain I fully understand.


    It sounds like you're still going for vertical progression, its just that you are separating the content into a whole bunch of parallel routes. That sounds like you're still segregating the community a lot, so I dont think you'd make grouping up much easier. However, I can see that when a new xpac comes along, it would be very quick to reach the start of that xpacs content. No more leveling for months just to reach the start of the new content, and thats a good thing.


    What has me most confused is how you prevent upgrades from one of the parallel paths being useful in another of the paths. Like, if I got the BiS gear from the WotLK raids, why wouldn't that gear then trivialise leveling through the MoP parallel path? I'm not just talking about the MoP raids, but the normal leveling content for that xpac too.



    How about PvP and crafting? If gear from one path is nerfed when you're in other paths, which gear works in PvP, or does that count as a separate path too? Also, how do you motivate players to go through all the paths, or keep going back to old paths? Wouldn't the community still end up congregating around the newest content, making it still very difficult to get groups together for old content, even if it's still "on level"?



    I think the thing that sticks in my mind most with this suggestion is: where is the choice? With pure vertical progression, there's minimal choice - you just equip the best you possibly can and keep climbing that ladder. With pure horizontal, its all valid choice - you equip whatever best suits your playstyle or whatever content you are facing.

    With your suggestion, it seems like in theory, you get a lot of choice (because there is a BiS gearset at the end of every path, so the more paths, the more choice), but in reality you're restricted to whatever drops from that path, and the paths are still vertical, so minimal choice.



    I'm also struggling to understand what my motivation would be to clear multiple paths.

    If the gear from one path isn't useful in other paths, then I would be massively put off. Leveling up, raiding, getting the best gear.....and then repeating that exact same process with slightly different content would be a massive turnoff.

    Now, if the gameplay was signficantly different in each path (e.g. a pvp path, a solo pve path, a group pve path, a crafting path, a roleplaying path etc) then I might be motivated. Thats what the start of your post sounded like, but the end of your post didnt. I could also see myself being motivated if the gear was useful everywhere - in essense, so I could level up in just one path, and then participate in the endgame of every path. That seems like a good idea too, but then you're moving closer to horizontal progression.
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,483
    I would expect that gear from different expansions gets rebalanced so that the best in slot gear from each expansion is comparable to each other.  Once that is done, you can make it so that gear from one expansion only gives 2/3 of the normal stats when used in another expansion.  Or some other ratio instead of 2/3, and somehow nerf effects that aren't neatly defined by standard stats.  As I'd envision it, the best in slot gear from one expansion used in another expansion should be roughly comparable to what an average player has upon reaching the level cap in that other expansion.  It would not make endgame gear from the other expansion obsolete.

    You could handle PVP either by having separate PVP arenas with scaled gear from each expansion, or by allowing all gear from all expansions to participate without any wrong-expansion nerfs.  Crafted gear from a given expansion similarly has full stats when used in that expansion and nerfed stats when used in any other expansion.

    Each parallel path would still be pretty vertical.  This really isn't horizontal progression.  For someone who has cleared every expansion as it launched and doesn't care to return, this wouldn't really make any difference.  But someone who comes along later could play though old expansions without them all being deprecated.  And someone who likes one expansion better than another could do the one he likes best rather than having the latest one as the only option.

    Your motivation to clear other expansions is that it's more content for you to play through.  Suppose that WoW did this and you had never played WoW, but picked it up today.  You get to endgame and play through the latest expansion, and then what?  Quit until the next expansion releases?  With this approach, you could then go play a different expansion if you wanted to as it would still be in a playable state, and without having to level a new character through the introductory areas on a classic server.

    My primary goal here is to keep old content playable forever, while still allowing players to get to the latest endgame quickly if they want to.  MMORPGs perennially struggle to offer enough content, and yet older games commonly have less content in a playable state 10 years after launch than they did 1 year after launch.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,831
    edited October 22
    Quizzical said:
    My primary goal here is to keep old content playable forever, while still allowing players to get to the latest endgame quickly if they want to.  MMORPGs perennially struggle to offer enough content, and yet older games commonly have less content in a playable state 10 years after launch than they did 1 year after launch.

    Thanks for the extra explanations, I appreciate it! The idea has me intrigued.


    Now, I don't play WoW, never really have, but wasn't their level squish a few years ago almost exactly what you are suggesting? Each expansion now offering a separate leveling path, giving the player more options and allowing them access to the new content immediately?

    I guess the difference is they don't have separate levels per expansion, as in your suggestion. In your suggestion, each path is still required if you want to reach that path's endgame, whereas (as i understand things, which may be wrong) you're only required to do one path in WoW, then you have access to the whole of the endgame.



    I'm still struggling to see what advantage your system really offers the majority of gamers, beyond quicker access to the latest xpacs content. Aside from that advantage, things basically look the same as they are now, except you are also segregating the playerbase even further through separate levels per path. It's feeling like quite an eleborate catch-up mechanic at the moment!

    I don't see how parallel paths keeps any content relevant. The XP from one path doesn't help you with any other path. The rewards from one path don't help you in any other path. So, if I'm not interested in simply experiencing the content (whether that be stories/quests for leveling, or overcoming the challenge of endgame) then im just not gonna bother.




    I think what got me thinking so much in your OP was when you were talking about different types of gameplay being equally viable and fully fleshed out. Where you could ignore combat gameplay and purely focus on trading, or exploring, or crafting for example. Each type of gameplay being fully fleshed out and comparable to one another, rather than what we currently have which is 90% combat questing, and everything else feeling weak and tacked on.

    I'm definitely on board with that idea. But what you've end up describing just feels like another way to separate content into it's own little silos, further segregating the playerbase whilst only offering a minor benefit to catching up.
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

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