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Good on South Dakota
tedrick
Member Posts: 32
All right let me start with saying if abortion is not murder then what is it? Stick with me here.
If I take you out of your environment and put you in one in which you cannot survive - say in 3500 feet of sea water or in low earth orbit in a pair of jeans what is that called? Manslaughter or something. I deprived you of the environment in which you could continue life. But then again that is not the argument - we all know in our little brains that killing is wrong. Soldiers have to train to be ABLE to kill another person.
Now life a word which has a definition so let me post it --
LIFE - 1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings - 1 c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
Now a fetus after a few days has these traits so it is alive. It is a human. The problem is it is defenseless and silent. It cannot cry out for its lungs have not yet formed. Given time they will. This does not make this little creature any less of a human. Does someone being stricken with being mute make them less of a human? Handicapped? No. So why does being new to the whole life thing?
I do not know how many of you are exposed to that which you champion. Since Roe v Wade there have been about 64,000,000 abortions in the United States. At an average of 1lb 2oz. - 36000 Tons. Imagine 7200 Dump truck load of fetuses Morbid? Gross? I thought they weren't human?
For more exposure than you would like do you know the mechanics of an abortion. Oh you support is - sure, sure - but could you do it as you peered in to the ultrasound?
"Saline Abortion
Also called "saline amniocentesis", "salting out" and "hypertonic saline" abortion, this method is used after 16 weeks of pregnancy because there needs to be enough amniotic fluid to enable the doctor to get a needle into the amniotic sac. The doctor withdraws 50 to 250 cc of amniotic fluid and injects a concentrated solution of salt. The baby breathes in and swallows the salt, which is poisonous. The babys skin is burned by the salt as it draws water out of the babys body. The baby dies within one to two hours, often after violent movements. The mother goes into spontaneous labor in 36 to 72 hours and delivers her shriveled baby."
Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps.
The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.
The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the hole.
The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
You support this? In all honesty? If you can seek help, for you are more the killer than a squad of Marines.
Now for the other argument and I hear it repeatedly. What about rape cases? Incest? And every other possible bad way a woman can become pregnant.
Is a rape a death penalty crime? Incest? In ALL 50 states it is not. So if you were to punish the unborn for this one they will be spending 10-50 years in prison.
Oh but its not thier fault ? Right.
Yet they are most often punished for it by death. Death is the end of life. A fetus, by the definition, is alive. Do not fight me on these simple sentences of logic.
So with all that established should a mother maintain the right to terminate her child at will? For any reason she feels like ? What if she just want to maintain her current jean size? What if she just wants to continue to have sex without consequence?
And therein lies the majority of your abortion excuses. The abliity to remove a sexual mistake. For both parties involved it is a simple and mostly inexpensive solution to thier problem. The only casualty does has absolutely no defense and even law itself has set its will against it. This is why abortions are discreet and private matters because people know in thier deep brain that they are wrong.
So let me summarize.
1) Life is the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body or a distinctive quality of animate beings or a state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli.
2) Death is the end of life.
3) A fetus is alive and is by definition "Life". Re-Read #1 until you agree.
4) Abortion causes death.
5) Abortion is state sanctioned (legal) murder. Re-read #1 thru #4 until you get it.
This case will go to the Supreme court. One day it may change. Then maybe an abortion will not be as easy to get as an oil change.
Comments
The biggest excuse of pro-abortion is that it is sub-human/non-human/not worthy of life, and should be allowed to be slaughtered be it because of an inconvenience, complications, if they just feel like it, whatever.
Sounds like a modern day mirroring of hitlers opinions on Jews.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
I like MMORPGs.
Good post. I dont agree that abortion should be banned, but good post none the less. You made some extremely valid points.
Why do I support abortion then if I think you made good points?
Because to a lot of people, despite anything science says, life does not begin until birth. PERSONALLY I would never condone abortion, but I do not believe that it is the government's job to tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body. You may call it murder, and I guess in a sense it is, but that doesn't change the fact that it's HER body and she should be able to (IMHO) do to it whatever she wants.
Just my opinion of course.
I don't know who you've talked to, because I have NEVER heard that excuse.
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft
Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II
XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
My wife is currently pregnant with our 4th child. Since she is over 40, they did an ultrasound at 6 weeks. At 6 weeks, our child was 5.8mm long, but has a visible heartbeat, head, arms and body. Anyone who could possibly consider an abortion of that child not murder is a truely heartless soul.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Simplified common argument:
Pro-life, "Abortion is murder! How can you condone that!"
Pro-Choice, "They really are not alive/human until they're born!"
You even said it yourself. Most people don't believe life begins until birth.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
first off i walked away to let this topic go but felt i need to post.
things pro lifers need to think about
1 does this effect you? no it doesnt it effects one maybe two people if the dads involved.
2 with all the abandoned babies and kids that need help with families that dont care adopt or open a foster home. when there are no more unwanted kids i might change my opinion.
but mostly focus on number one before trying to make laws to force people to have kids that cant afford or are mentally not able to take care of kids.
abortion should never be used as a form of birth control if a person has more than one abortion they should have there tubes tied in my opinion.
me and my wife had a abortion for the one fact of could we afford it could we provide for a child where we are in our lives. the answer was no we couldnt. i myself love kids but would i want my kids to live like i did on mac and cheese and what ever other family members could help out with no i didnt like that life so i know a child of my DNA wouldnt like it either.
well theres alot of goverment oprograms to help oh yeah make even more strain on the goverment system thats failing.
but always remember number one does it effect you?
now see laws making drugs illegal good why cause it wil can and has effected me personally so yes im agaist drugs.
also for you religious people its not for you to decide if i go to hell or heaven its the creator "if there is one" to decide where i go not you.
i dont need a church or a temple to worship a "god" i can belkieve how i want without those in the privacy of my own mind.
have a wonderful day/night
Wow.. what a way to star horde. You posted this exact same message on the other one. You are officially off my buddy list );
First of all to the OP. You can make any medical method sound cruel and harsh with the right methods. What you posted is the good old propaganda used since this debate emerged. A propaganda that works perfect in making a 14 year old pregnant girls feel suicidal. As if they didn't have enough trouble allready.
In the end it all comes down to when you consider a child to be alive. For me it's the day it's parted from the body of the mother. The day the string of life is cut over. Birth. The day the fetus (Spelled like that?) is able to live and breath on it's own.
so as to just asking why i did that you took me off your friend list
im devistated so just to help you i did that for the reason of not all the people reading this thread arent reading the other thread i posted in that one first so as to hit all the reader with logic thats why i posted on both.
I am actually from SD... I think by and large that state is filled with a bunch of stupid hicks that don't know their heads from their asses, and their legislative branches are filled with caffienated soccer moms and bigots... Nothing good ever comes out of SD, in fact, our ex-governer turned US congressman killed a Minnesota driver in SD, and got off nearly scott-free...
South Dakota has less than a million people in the state and refused to cooperate with Bill Clinton's racial stereotyping program back in the 90's... When I cross the state line to visit my hometown, I also go about 10 years behind in everything in everyway... The place is a dumpy, barren, flat, smelly, cold, mean & boring place to live... These people in SD simply have nothing better to do than pick on people who are different...
In SD, if you are under 18 and busted for curfew *BAM* straight to juvy hall... The laws are so damned strict there, it is not even funny... I find myself visiting less and less as the years go by, and my family is always on my case as to why I never come home anymore...
I remember skipping school in HS to eat at Taco Bell and get loaded... We would drive by the Planned Parenthood clinic and there were always protesters... Pathetic really, of all the important issues like healthcare, our energy crisis and the affects of gloablization as a whole, we squabble over an issue that affects less than 1% of USA's pooulation...
This thread and the people who take their so-called stances are meaningless... Abortion is a non-issue, it doesn't affect me, anyone in my life and probably doesn't affect any of your lives either, so why argue about it?
This post was to give you a taste of the hell that I grew up in...
Simplified common argument:
Pro-life, "Abortion is murder! How can you condone that!"
Pro-Choice, "They really are not alive/human until they're born!"
You even said it yourself. Most people don't believe life begins until birth.
I have defined life. It is a simple definition and by it a fetus is alive within a few days of conception. Some would argue the moment of conception, but I will not make a that argument yet. What I will say is if your judgement on whether something is right or wrong has no bearing on whether it actually is right or wrong.
Stick with me here. If you feel that running stop lights is not wrong. No one, other than you, will care. Not the officer, not he judge, and not the law. So for all intensive purposes what you feel is irrelevant in the matter. As it is in the matter of murder.
Now life has been defined. If you end life of another being you are killing it. If you end life of another human being; you are killing a person. If you place a human being into an environment in which they cannot sustain life on thier; you are killing it. Your feeling have no bearing in the aforementioned sentences - they are irrelevant.
Killing has its place in the world. Soldiers kill. Police kill. People kill in defence of themselves and others. The state kills criminals as well. Whether you agree with killing or not - it does not change the fact that it does have uses. Killing eliminates a problem. Soldiers kill to eliminate a threat. Police kill to eliminate a subjects ability to cause harm. People kill in self defence of thier lives and homes. The State kills to invoke the highest penalty for convict that can be given. Death. With all of these death has to involve the victim doing something to warrant death. If they do not do something to warrant death and they happen by the hands of another. It is murder or manslaughter. The difference between murder and manslaughter is, almost all the time, premeditation. "Did you plan to kill?" If yes, then murder; if not, then manslaughter.
Now in the 'new' age we can kill the unborn. They have not done anything to warrant death. Their demise is a planned event. No one with an ounce of sense could argue that a fetus is not alive. It is alive and it is a human. What they do argue is that the child is property of its mother and therefore she can kill it at will. So a human is property ?
Now stick with me here. If a fetus is propery of its mother, then it is also property of the father. Both gave equal number of chromosomes so it is a join project. Granted only one will have to carry the burden in thier abdomen for the better part of year.
So if humans are property before they are born; so are pets. People own pets - the pet belongs to its owner. It is owned. So if I want to I can go out and blow my pet away with a 12 gauge? Or maybe I can stick a pair of scissors into its head and suck its brains out with a surgical hose? I would be arrested and thrown into prison for many months to many years for animal cruelty.
The reason is simple pets are protected by law. Unborn children are not. Pets you can see walking down the street and generally enjoying thier existence. Unborn children are not seen. They are too busy growing as fast as possible. Their cries cannot be heard. Thier rights are not represented. No one fights for them. No one defends them. The government itself has set its laws against it. It is open season and anyone can get a license.
I will add one post script to all this - there is but one reason a pregnancy should be terminated. fallopian pregnancy. This is where the fetus - if it is allowed to grow - will kill the mother and the child both. This is a sad case, but in these cases an abortion would be warranted because the fetus is endangering its mothers life.
Do not give me the quality of life argument either. There are thousands upon thousands of couple who are ready, willing, and able to accept a newborn. Just because it would be tough on your income does not warrant death for another. Unless your current lifestyle is greater than your morals. Which, sad to say, is true for 98% of all abortions.
I ate mac and cheese for most of my childhood - had a black and white TV to play nintendo. A nintendo that I had to borrow. The power use to go out in my house for a couple weeks. Woe is me. Waa waa. Cry more. I am all the better for it. Any of you that have expereinced 'bare minumum' survival know that it is not fun, but it is doable. I would not choose death over it. Nor should anyone be given the right to do so over another human;
Life.
The following post contains a lot of far out stuff. I'm writing it to prove a point.
Your analogy to pets doesn't necessarily work. Your pet is not part of you. It is not contained within your body. Now, let's say that you put your pet inside your chest and let it there. Let's also say it wasn't harming you in any way shape or form. Would you want to let it stay there? No, you wouldn't! You'd want to get it out by whatever the hell means possible. But oh no! That would be taking the life of a living creature and we can't have that, can we?
That analogy may be extremely far out, but it really explains why saying abortion is the same as killing someone in person does not work. I'm not saying that the average woman hates having a baby in her. All I used that analogy for was to prove the point that it is different killing something INSIDE of your and killing something OUTSIDE of you. I can't think of a better way of saying that, so if the wording sounds strange I'm sorry.
So, what would be the solution to this? Simply put, there isn't one. Since a woman has the right to do what she wants to her body, she can take the baby out, therefore making it an external being and killing it would be truly murder in the sense that we know it in society. But as you said, a fetus can not survive outside of the womb. So the fetus is GOING to die. Would you rather the baby die slowly and most likely painfully on its own outside the womb, or would you rather it be killed quickly and more or less painlessly?
I know everything I just said is really far out, but like I said I'm posting it to make two points:
a) there is no simple solution, and there will never be a simple solution to abortion
b) there is a fundamental difference between taking control of something within your own body and killing something outside of it
Simply put, the government does not have the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with HER body.
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft
Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II
XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Please read my post clearly. I posted THREE TIMES within the post that the analogy I used was far out. I used it purely to MAKE A POINT.
Schutzbar - Human Warrior - Windrunner Alliance - World of Warcraft
Nihilanth - Kerra Paladin - Blackburrow - EverQuest II
XBL Gamertag - Eagle15GT
Sup,
You know I really dont mind abortion, just because it is none of my business weither some one gets an abortion or not, thats just being nosey. So please stop posting this crap, because its called a "blog", on the other hand these laws should be enforced state wise, If you live in Nevada and its illegal, go over to california if its legal there... So im just going to say its none of my business what people want to do, I just need to stay with what I conclude in my head.
First off I am Pro-Choice. I disagree with those who are Pro-Life and Pro-Abortion. I also have strong beliefs that Partial Birth Abortions should be outlawed. They would have been too if it wasn't for the Pro-Life supporters leaving absolutely no allowance if the partial-birth would be needed to save the mother's life or if the mother was at risk. I fully blame these people for keeping Partial-Birth abortions legal and praise President Clinton for making the unpopular but correct choice.
As far as abortions in general, again I am Pro-Choice. I don't believe that life begins until well into the pregnancy and so it doesn't bother me to support women who decide an abortion is the best way to go. I absolutely am disgusted with the idea however, that someone elses religious of moral beliefs will be forced upon others. For people who believe that life begins at conception: Don't have an abortion. For people who believe that life doesn't begin until 4 or 5 months after conception: have an abortion. If it isn't your body than it isn't your choice. It isn't even the husband or boyfriend or father's choice. In the case of the boyfriend of husband: If you chose to be with someone who doesn't include you in the decision than it is on your for your poor judgement on their character.
It is entirely against what this country stands for to make laws that force or deny someone the freedom of choice based soley on a minority or majority's personal opinions or beliefs. Believe what you want to believe and live how you want to live but when you are attempting to control the lives of others you are way out of line.
tedrick.
"Where you believe life begins does not mater." It does. Very much. But we aren't talking about life here. Life is basicly everything here on this planet. Every organismn on this planet. What we have to decide in this debate is when does something become a living being. Living being is the keyword I believe. People have a different opinion of this, but I think most think that a living being is something that can live on it's own. Untill the 23th week a fetus doesn't have any ability to survive on it's own.
You also have to remember that abortion is only allowed untill the 12th week. Freely. After the 12th week you have to have really, really good reasons to take abortion. You have to apply for it and a board will allow it or not. A fetus does not achieve any form of ability to survive untill the 23th week. After the 23th week you can only take abortion if it's about the life of the mother, she can die etc. Atleast this is how the norwegian laws are. So talking about abortion as a freely allowed murder is wrong.
And the "no abortion" laws are something the minority wants to force upon the minority. Mostly based on religious belief. Catholic church etc. Religion is not law.
Well this one is easy.
Dont like abortion? Dont do it!
One side in this argument tries to enforce rules on everyone that do not think and/or see things as they do.
( Coincidentally also valid a world war 2/nazi analogy as someone posted above )
It is not as if the pro-choice people actively tries to encourage people to abort.
The views on when a life is a life is based on opinion, but one side here tries to FORCE the other side to their views, wereas the other side do not really care as long as they are alloved to make that decision for themself.
So, final point must be that whichever side influences the other the least is right, and again pro-choice people do NOT force pro-life people to abort but pro-life are trying to FORCE their opinions and views on the other side of the debate.
End of story, until we all get one common and shared view on when life is life that we all can agree on, but I really do not see that happening.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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A wemon has a right to decide if she wants to have a baby or not. The baby is part of her body before it is born. Is she wants to take it out and not have it she should have that right. Are they gonna start forbiding wemon from cuting their nails? Mabey from getting hair cuts?
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as i stated before pro-lifers should ask themselves one question does this choice of a female or couple hurt you in any way shap or form? i know the answers no so then dont force your opinion to other people who have another opinion please it makes for a easy end of this debate.
Point #1 : Hey plants and animals have life too... Hey, I don't want anyone to kill/eat plants or animals... Lets put a law that restricts that...<_<
Point #2 : Even if it could talk, it has no idea what life even is/mean...
Point #3 : Why the hell force someone to have a baby and now money is going to have to be put out to take care of it, while babies born on the other side of the world dies from starvation...
Smart thinking Joe