Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
MMORPG Leadership Handbook
Desperado
Member Posts: 467
Here's a thread with positive, informative, discussion in mind. Think of it as a sort of "How to" read that we all are building that future or current leaders can get ideas from.
Think about the various guilds, linkshells, pas, etc. that you've belonged to and try and remember the one whose leader was the most successful at fullfilling his role. What qualities did he/she exude that made that person shine to you as "head honcho." In other words...
In your opinion what aspects make a leader a good one? (This is relating purely to MMORPGs or other online gaming)
"A good man knows his limits, a Great man knows he has none...."
"A good man knows his limits, a Great man knows he has none...."
Comments
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Oh my god... dont ask where i found it
A: 73% S: 66% K: 33% E: 26%
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
98% of the teenage population does or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 98% who has, copy & paste this in your signature.
A: 73% S: 66% K: 33% E: 26%
I rememember one of my guild leaders from back in the good ol' days of RO, he knew how to lead. He was very helpful to all of the incoming newbies to the guild, he ALWAYS talked in the guild chat to see what we have to say and stuff, and he always helped us out by giving free stuff. Sure, it's not all about giving free stuff, but it helps to show that a leader cares about us. Now while there may only be 16 people in that guild, it was easy, I'm sure in the games with bigger guilds/clans, things will be done differently. but the key thing is to act nice, help out people ingame, and to talk with your members, because we too make a difference.
I think that a good guild leader is one who sets the tone and direction for the guild and keeps the guild on track, without any ego-tripping and as little drama as possible. A good guild leader delegates some responsibility-- I have seen guilds go haywire while the guildleader was unavailable, and no officer had the authority to control the damage or clean up the mess. Good guild leaders are problem solvers, and if they think quick on their feet, that's even better. They are also informed about the state of the game-- what's going on and where to go to do what-- and can rally the guild around a gameplan.
[EDIT: Little wording change, no change to meaning.]
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Sadly Ive never actually had a good guild leader, more of a puppet ruler, controlled by the second in command *cough* *evil grin*
I have been in one guild where it was divised into command units. (EnB)
we had one guy who was really good,
So far I find it works best, ESPECIALLY in large guilds, if you follow the classical command system, its tried and true.
Leader
Sub-Leaders
Members devided among sub leaders
(add another division if there are 100's of people but rarely is there a structured guild with that many)
Leader has the final say, and Talks a lot with The sub-leaders, They are on a talking basis, they get along.
Most news to members should come through the Sub-Leaders, Thus establishing a "family" among the sub-leader and his members.
Leader is in charge of many things, choices and such, and also, if any bad changes or announcments happen, that should be hte job of the Leader to announce, this gives the leader a bit more respect, but by giving good news through the sub-leaders and keeping sub groups together, this does a few things.
Unifies, the small groups of members close to each other and gives hte sub-leader the "Big Brother" control, Basically that he can tell you want to do, but you still talk with him, hang out with him, and such.
This unifies the Sub-leaders, so they can work together and use the unity with there own grop to make decisions.
This also Brings hte sub-leaders and Leader in a Unity.
Lastly this also causes the leader to seem, very "uber" and very powerful. It causes 99% of the members to Listen to and respect everything about the leader.
again to some people this sounds VERY elitist, but done correctly it works very well in keeping a guild in unity, especially if you get hte groups to work properly, and try to have them do things in there groups.
Some people look at this and say doesnt that just spread out the group and seperate them, but really, the unity in the small groups brings a closness to your group and a respect for everyone else, and I have seen it work well once... sadly few people ever attempt this.
Many guilds collapse from lack of structure and things, THe communist approach of everyone is equal is good to a point, but ocnes you get a lot of members, it can get chaotic, same with having the masses of ranks where decisions just keep going up the ranks, its good to a point but can get confusing.
AS for what i like in a guild leader, if they can pull the ranking system i just talked about of properly, have the ability, the people skills and the typing skills, they deserve to be a guild leader.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Decisive, but able to compromise.
Bold, but not brash.
Listens well, but knows when enough's been said.
Ignores the petty, but pays attention to details.
Available, but not pliable.
Patient, but able to move quickly.
The most important thing of all, however, is vision and the ability to articulate it.
Leaders gotta have a personailty, he's gotta be good at his job, just as every other guild member should be, whatever their job is. He's gotta be decisive, he's gotta know how to organize, I.E. -Raids, groups, and adventures. He's gotta know how to get people in line. He's gotta know how to welcome new member such as newbies, and lowbies.
Importantly he's gotta be friendly and a good guy to be associated with.
"The sun comes up and I'm all washed out. Is this what Deaner was talkin about? I don't think I will ever return again my friend." ---Gene Ween
"The sun comes up and I'm all washed out. Is this what Deaner was talkin about? I don't think I will ever return again my friend." ---Gene Ween
Most important quality - Selfless.
I have never had a guild leader, as I generally start my own when in game. I know there is alot to learn when doing such. I often communicate with other "leaders" within a particular game world and have had the opportunity to experience different types of leadership. The one quality that I try to bring to the table is being Selfless. Being a leader is a choice, and as such I am willing to set aside my personal "fun" ( read: lvl'ing, crafting, and such) so that I can focus on the enjoyment of the entire guild. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the management side of guilds or I wouldn't do it so often, but it does take away from the standard gameplay.
This is a great thread, there are not enough good "guild" leaders outthere. MMO's being community focused, really need good leaders to help enrich the gaming experience. I have learned alot, and continue to learn.
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
This is a fascet Nick Yee has has felt bartle neglected when talking about how people interact inside a game.
Maybe as games become more complicated in game leadership my become a fascet, but currently I place little no value on it, and even debate if leadership inside MMORPG even exist?
What is MMORPG leadership? Generally it's the same thing as knowledge. If you know a good spot to hunt you might say "Let go to spot X". If you want to kill a big mob, you need to know how many you need. But setting aside the knowledge element, all you have is a person sending a few tells. or saying a few sentences.
The way we interact with people inside the game is so one dimensional, I don't think any true signs of leadership can be show or disproved. People are good MMORPG game leaders and have little or no leadership qualities in life.
MMORPG leadership is more about herding cats, you give a command, you hope it gets followed. You must be positive no matter how bad your people screw it up.
So I guess being a optimist and a socializer are the qualities of a MMORPG "leader"
-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
I can see what you are saying, but the text that people type in games has a different impact on others based on who those others perceive the speaker to be. I noticed that I would type something like, "Let's go to ZoneX to kill MobY," and I was largely ignored. I could poke my husband, he would type EXACTLY the same words a few minutes later, and a raid would start to form. I ran a guild for a while, and even though my husband was only marginally involved, whenever a new member asked in guildchat who the guildleader was, someone would invariably say it was him, even if I was actually the one doing all the work.
So there really is something to in-game leadership. I don't think it necessarily has to correspond to real world leadership; it may be a completely separate quality. For example, I am pretty good at organizing people in real life. I communicate well to groups and individuals, and I can get people moving and talking in the same direction. In game, I don't seem to be able to convey any sort of force behind my words. That could be because I don't say much, so my personality doesn't come through, and people seem to associate personalities with pixels (i.e. they remember and regard your character by what they know or have heard about how you act.)
My husband, on the other hand, isn't much of a real-world leader. He likes to bark commands at people and can't figure out why they won't cooperate. (Too much military in his blood, I guess.) In a game setting, he's just brilliant, though. People see him as a no-nonsense, go-getter kind of guy, and they do whatever he says, even when he's just trying to make casual suggestions. The difference is that he types constantly while he plays. He tells everyone everything he thinks about everything. And people remember that. His personality-to-pixels conversion works better than mine.
Or maybe it is a combination of personality and style. Maybe people want someone to bark orders at them in the game. Maybe consensus building doesn't work in MMORPG worlds.
Anyway, those are my biased and unfounded theories of the day. Feel free to ask for more. I've got a million of them.
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
Clever_Glove, based on what you say I can only be lead to believe you must not have engaged in raiding politics in EQ during your time in that game. The best guild and raid leaders took the least resources and accomplished the most. The mediocre leaders accomplished less with more. The bad ones saw their guilds implode. This was highlighted especially in the Velious era, with the race for the North Temple of Veeshan...the scrambling of resources, the negotiation of attempts, the handling of saboteurs, the internal intrigues with loot distribution, etc... It got worse in the Temple of Ssra (I hate trying to spell that stupid name) and Vex Thal. The well-lead guilds succeeded, the rest succumbed or suffered.
There is a definite role for leadership in MMOG, and that is the context of the discussion after all. Perhaps the best EQ guild leader is a lackey at 7-11 IRL, but the qualities that matter in a MMOG clearly don't depend on potency and effeciency IRL.
Exactly. I agree with ianubisi.
There might be something here that gets into what level of play you are at in a game. Different kinds of guilds need different kinds of leadership. Maybe if you are in a mid-level (difficulty, not exp level) guild, it is fine for someone to say "Hey, let's go and see what's there, maybe kill the named," and then send a few tells, gather a few people, and go. It's another thing entirely to have a low-high level guild (again, difficulty, not the character levels) that's trying to race with 23 other similar guilds to hit high-profile targets as they spawn. It's requires a much higher level of coordination and communication. And that's at least part of where the leadership comes in.
I am going to have to think about how to talk about these different styles of play. One is not "better" than another, and I am afraid that talking about "higher" and "lower" levels of play tends to imply that one is better than the other, that Achievers are better than Socializers. It's not better. In some cases, if you are in the wrong sort of guild for you, it can be much, much worse. But that's another topic entirely.
Maybe other games are different. Most of my experience was in EQ. (I was in a UO guild too, but I was more of a mascot than a member there, so that doesn't count.)
...
This is where I draw the line: __________________.
The one response I expected to see to Clever Glove was regarding Community. Yes if you just want to play within the mechanics of the game, guilds are pointless. You don't really need a structered group to tell you where the best hunting spots are. But, for those that enjoy MMORPG's beyond the simple mechanics provided and seek the community aspect of the game, guild leadership is an important role. I have played many, many different online games, I don't think I have ever had a single charecter reach max level. This is because I spent loads of time interacting with other players, doing things that were fun and not necessarily rewarding in terms of XP and such.
This is what a good Guild leader brings to the table. The ability to take a simple game of 1's and 0's and make it so much more through interaction. It can be alot of fun, it can be very frustrating. But it is what gives the game a lasting lifespan. Lvls and such can only take a game so far. the community has to pick it up from the and carry on.
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
/gu We move in 5
-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
The qualities that make a good organizer != qualities that make a good raid leader != qualities that make a good guild leader.
Organizers and forum admins are attenders. They look after details, keep the i's dotted and t's crossed. They keep the lines of communication open and manage the flow of things.
Raid leaders make decisions, pursue opportunities, avert crisis, and manage directed efforts. They rise and fall by the fortunes of their team, and are able to get more out of people that people thought possible.
Guild leaders provide vision, mediate arguments, assuage fears, foster hopes, and manage the "hearts and minds" aspects. They wield great reputations, for folly or heroism, and can often be legendary.
The best leaders delegate, I definitely forgot to list this. They foster trust that their decisions are good. When a good leader says "go" people do as such and ask questions later. Bad leaders either foster suspicion or outright insubordination.
I have never found a single guild leader or even a manager in business that was good at all these things. The best guild leader I knew was good at the vision aspect but only a mediocre raid leader, and a terrible organizer. He chose, however, good organizers and raid leaders...and he was a phenomenal listener who always made everyone feel important. His presence was not always necessary, but always appreciated.
I definitely agree that MMOGs often foist leadership upon the unwary, and when that happens more often than not that person is crushed. The expectations and demands of the masses can weigh down even the most patient of souls.
While what you say may be true about leaders in life, leadership inside MMORPG's is much different.
For example you only have carrots to motivated people. If you try use sticks, very quickly you'll be talking to yourself in /gu.
Because of the positive enforcement nature of all things concerning volunteer participation, optimism becomes paramount for "leadership". While the same my be true in real world models for .org's for real world companies it is the paranoid that do the best.
Much of game leadership boil down to someone making suggestions and getting enough people to follow that others will fall in line. (hopefully) It's more a peer-presure performance than good leadership.
I think the peer-presure and allowing people that want to "get things" done, goes well inside MMORPG. Basically a optimist with a hands off apporch. In EQ a DKP system a few "go get'ems" the whole guild leadership takes care of itself.
Just to toss a long on the fire. IMHO a good leader is never someone wanting the position. Anyone that desires leadership is by default unworthily. Since desirous leaders will favor there own self interests. Reluctant leaders are the best. Those that have no problem stepping aside when there work is complete.
-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
That really depends on the personality and capability. On the server in EQ I played on, the best guild for 3 years straight was ruled by a man with an iron fist. He never used a carrot, always used the stick. He demanded the best of everyone, all the time, and had no tolerance for failure. His affection was expressed like a warrior, not like a cheerleader or confidant. He retained a tight control on the top spawns of the game until Luclin, when he retired. His guild won all the time.
And winning was the key, for him, and for his guild. While he won, his followers stayed with him and loved him, in a bittersweet manner, because he brought them victory. I know this sounds dramatic, but it's entirely accurate.
Mind you, others tried to emulate his style...always to disastrous results. They beat their guildmembers bloody. In that, your point is correct. But there are times when an iron fist can be the best way to lead.
-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
No. What I'm saying is that some people are successful with an iron fist tactic.
You know who else runs with a iron fist? Castro, Saddom, Mussolini....ect.
I can't deny the effectiveness of this approach, but it's difficult to believe it's effectiveness when voluntary participation is on the line.
For example, in Iraq, you did what the military told you or you were raped, killed or raped then killed. This is what kept people in line fear.
In a guild since you can't actually make people fear for there lives. (at least I hope not) What is the fear tactic to keep people in line on a raid? Being booted form the guild? So if a raid fails, was a MT forced to leave? Or did the clerics take the blame get the axe?
If someone was late, where they told to leave? (I can't tell how much I wanted to do this). What happed when 40 people showed, but you didn't have enough clerics? Were those that didn't make it forced to leave the guild?
I think maybe your not using a phases that accurate, it extremely difficult to believe people would stay in a guild where they were belittled constantly and dropped if they didn't preform up to someone elses standards on every raid.
Iron fisted rulers aren't liked. Remember, no one can MAKE anyone preform, they have to want to do it. In life, a good leader/couch will not play or fire those that don't preform. In a MMORPG this isn't a overly effective solution, since people join guilds to play with friends, removing one generally results is loss of many.
And allot you think I not social.
-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
For some people, it's not about being liked it's about winning. Ghengis Khan was brutal beyond comprehension, but he commanded respect and love from his followers because he brought victory. I can repeat this theme over and over with other examples, but that's not necessary.
What I will say about it that I feel is true is that most people who employ this method fail miserably. More people who employ a carrot approach will have more middling to strong success than the majority that try an iron fist approach. Iron fist is an extreme, and has extreme results...extreme failure or extreme success.
I'm not trying to refute your points, they are mostly accurate. But you simply cannot rule out an iron fist approach as a potential means to success, and thus a legitimate form of leadership.
I'm not ruling out this approch, I'm trying to figure out how it was possable. Your not answering my questions.
Iron Fist means you keep your subjuects in line by use of fear. What is the fear tatic employed in a MMORPG?
-=-=-=-=-
"The beauty of MMORPGS is the merging of gaming and chatrooms. EQ is really just AOL merged with a fantasy game." - billus8
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
Fear of being kicked out of the guild, being passed over for loot, and being ridiculed by your peers.
People were on a waiting list to get into this guild. They maintained a monopoly on NToV for months, never letting another guild kill Aaryonar and thus having free reign in NToV. So yes, if the MT died because a cleric was a moron the cleric would get the boot (provided it wasn't just a goof that moment) and another cleric would be promoted into the ranks. Happened occasionally, but not often.
That doesn't sound so Iron handed to me, but I certainly wasn't there. Anyone part of leadership is you must loose the dead wieght. Every large guild I was in elminated people for one reason or another.
-=-=-=-=-
Chess the oringal hardcore PvP game.
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
I think thats all very interesting. But that type of leadership only draws a certain type of player. Clever Glove makes a very good point tho. While there are those leaders known to rule with an "Iron Fist" I don't believe that it is the "norm". There is very little motivation in an MMO for a player to continuiously log on and take a beating. Although, I admit there are some that will. I have also seen Iron Fist leaders guilds dissolve as fast as they were created. People will tolerate certain things for a period of time,but when they realize that putting up with a ton of BS doesn't give them any real gain over another guild, they leave.
"Hardcore" guilds the real nasty pvp guilds and such (in my experience) are constantly recruiting because they have a high turnover. The type of leadership depends heavily on the game and its mechanics. If its a "war" game then people who enjoy war games tend to want to follow orders and such. Not only does it help keep things organized but it also adds immersion to the game for some players. Fantasy games are the same. Depending on the mechanics of the game determines the type of guild and leadership that will be successful
I follow one simple rule when leading guilds/clans/outfits and so on: Those that join do so by choice and can just as easily leave. Its my job to insure there enjoyment factor is significantly increased as a result of being in my guild/clan/outfit or they will move on.
Not sure if I expressed that "rule" very well but you get the idea. People have the ability to choose what guild they want to be a part of, Its the leaders of the guild that have to show that their community offers what people want.
Lastly, I have moved away from leading the individual game guild. I enjoy it, but what I really enjoy is a gaming community. I am now a part of a multi gaming community that focuses on getting to know members. I enjoy the fact that when the Next Great Thing is released I can hop in from day one with people I know. After being a part of a community for over a year, I am sure I will never go back to just leading game specific guilds. While the Community still needs a guild/clan/outfit leader for each specific games, it really ends up being a situation like Clever Glove mentioned. which is...no one really wants to be the leader because we are all familiar with each other, but someone has to do it, therefore we have a reluctant leader who does a great job to keep the game fun. Currently we have active clans/guilds/outfits in Planetside, Horizons, Eveonline, and for the upcoming Soldner. With over 200 members combined its alot of fun seeing familiar faces in new games
Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.