Official "We're Angry about SOE" Thread

Stradden · May 2006

Ok guys, it's been a while since the announcement, and we're still getting a whole lot of people creating threads over this issue. It's not that we mind you voicing your opinions, but it makes it difficult for others who would like to learn more about the game.

If you've got something to say on this topic, please post it here. Otherwise, the thread will be deleted / locked.

*Also, remember our Rules of Conduct. Don't step over the line here. Rules will be strictly enforced.

Cheers,

Jon "Stradden" Wood, Community Manager

Vengeful · May 2006

The topic is dead...

Unknown · May 2006

thank you!

cumbom · May 2006

THIS IS WHY PEOPLE HATE SOE

Nikoz78 · May 2006

Censorship sucks.

Definition: "Censorship is the control of speech and other forms of human expression."

Amathe · May 2006

Let's look at a timeline instead of just quoting Brad.

Time 1: Sigil pitches the game to Microsoft and they like the Vision (tm). They like it so much they are willing to invest many millions of dollars and fund its development over the course of many years.

Time 2: Brad and Co. work on the game for years, all the while touting the freedom MS affords them to make the game the way Sigil wants, and the harmonious relationship they enjoy.

Time 3: Game goes into closed Beta.

Time 4: Suddenly, out of the blue, Sigil needs a new financial backer and a new publisher because of alleged differences with MS about how the game should be made, and an alleged need for more control.

Think about this. What really changed? It's obvious. The beta. MS saw something in the beta that caused them to realize that this was going to be a turd. Why else would they walk away from a return on their investment as the game is approaching launch in the next six months or so? MS saw the feedback and said "fix this crap" and Brad said no and had to buy them out instead.

So the question each of you has to answer is, do you think MS are fools? Do you think they are unable to see the problems? Do you think they just hate money and walked away from something that was clearly going to be a huge success? Do you think they would have had those reservations if, as Brad likes to imply, the beta testers like the game and are raving about how great it is? You know better.

TommyKHart · May 2006

I had nothing to do with the beta. From what ive heard ms wanted vg to use windows vista. Sigil didnt want this so they pulled out.

Vengeful · May 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

Let's look at a timeline instead of just quoting Brad.
Time 1: Sigil pitches the game to Microsoft and they like the Vision (tm). They like it so much they are willing to invest many millions of dollars and fund its development over the course of many years.
Time 2: Brad and Co. work on the game for years, all the while touting the freedom MS affords them to make the game the way Sigil wants, and the harmonious relationship they enjoy.
Time 3: Game goes into closed Beta.
Time 4: Suddenly, out of the blue, Sigil needs a new financial backer and a new publisher because of alleged differences with MS about how the game should be made, and an alleged need for more control.
Think about this. What really changed? It's obvious. The beta. MS saw something in the beta that caused them to realize that this was going to be a turd. Why else would they walk away from a return on their investment as the game is approaching launch in the next six months or so? MS saw the feedback and said "fix this crap" and Brad said no and had to buy them out instead.
So the question each of you has to answer is, do you think MS are fools? Do you think they are unable to see the problems? Do you think they just hate money and walked away from something that was clearly going to be a huge success? Do you think they would have had those reservations if, as Brad likes to imply, the beta testers like the game and are raving about how great it is? You know better.

Other influences:

1) Release and focus on the Xbox 360 and their console war with Sony

2) Microsofts search for Vista exclusive titles to boost Window's Vista sales.

3) The sudden success of World of Warcraft dramatically changes the common held idea of what an MMO was supposed to be.

4) Microsoft, as any buisness, wants to offer a product that will compete in the market. After the market changed drastically with the release of World of Warcraft, it became less attractive to produce a game that didn't conform to the new market's standard.

5) All of these added factors changed Microsoft's approach to Vanguard, and Brad being the stubborn idealist that he is, would not comprimise.

Am I missing anything?

n2sooners · May 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

Let's look at a timeline instead of just quoting Brad.
Time 1: Sigil pitches the game to Microsoft and they like the Vision (tm). They like it so much they are willing to invest many millions of dollars and fund its development over the course of many years.
Time 2: Brad and Co. work on the game for years, all the while touting the freedom MS affords them to make the game the way Sigil wants, and the harmonious relationship they enjoy.
Time 3: Game goes into closed Beta.
Time 4: Suddenly, out of the blue, Sigil needs a new financial backer and a new publisher because of alleged differences with MS about how the game should be made, and an alleged need for more control.
Think about this. What really changed? It's obvious. The beta. MS saw something in the beta that caused them to realize that this was going to be a turd. Why else would they walk away from a return on their investment as the game is approaching launch in the next six months or so? MS saw the feedback and said "fix this crap" and Brad said no and had to buy them out instead.
So the question each of you has to answer is, do you think MS are fools? Do you think they are unable to see the problems? Do you think they just hate money and walked away from something that was clearly going to be a huge success? Do you think they would have had those reservations if, as Brad likes to imply, the beta testers like the game and are raving about how great it is? You know better.

First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE. But they did need someone with lots of experience to publish the game for them. Since Brad had friends at SOE, that was the natural choice.

Second, let's take a look at MS's experience with MMOs. Now, there may be more, but I only know of three MS MMOs. The first was AC. It was a decent game, but always overshadowed by EQ and UO. People always say EQ did so well because it was the only game on the market, but that wasn't true. UO and AC still existed, but UO wasn't 3d, and AC is often either dismissed or forgotten. Second was AC2. It is on the extremely short list of MMOs that have actually had to be shut down. Third was Mythica, but MS got cold feet on that one and killed it (possibly because of Vanguard). So it isn't like MS has some spectatular track record when it comes to MMOs. My guess is they wanted the game out faster, and possibly that they wanted it on the X-Box some time in the near future. I don't think they tried to directly alter the game, but by saying they wanted it out sooner rather than letting the beta run it's full course, that means content would have to be cut to make the deadline and the game would be released in a condition that many other games are being released now days, in a payed beta state.

Malakai · May 2006

Ahh.... all the unintelligent, immature posts are now on one single, easily ignored thread

. I can understand people stating their opinion, but when people keep crying

about the same dumb crap over and over for months, it gets a little old. Nice job mmorpg in making the forums a more friendly place for people who would like to learn more about the game's features

.

anarchyart · May 2006

Originally posted by n2sooners

First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE. But they did need someone with lots of experience to publish the game for them. Since Brad had friends at SOE, that was the natural choice.

Second, let's take a look at MS's experience with MMOs. Now, there may be more, but I only know of three MS MMOs. The first was AC. It was a decent game, but always overshadowed by EQ and UO. People always say EQ did so well because it was the only game on the market, but that wasn't true. UO and AC still existed, but UO wasn't 3d, and AC is often either dismissed or forgotten. Second was AC2. It is on the extremely short list of MMOs that have actually had to be shut down. Third was Mythica, but MS got cold feet on that one and killed it (possibly because of Vanguard). So it isn't like MS has some spectatular track record when it comes to MMOs. My guess is they wanted the game out faster, and possibly that they wanted it on the X-Box some time in the near future. I don't think they tried to directly alter the game, but by saying they wanted it out sooner rather than letting the beta run it's full course, that means content would have to be cut to make the deadline and the game would be released in a condition that many other games are being released now days, in a payed beta state.

Good job buddy. Thank the lord someone is paying attention so that I can just be a fan. Thank you for dealing with the uniformed, although he was at least a kind worded uninformed person.

Shayde · May 2006

Originally posted by thomas.hart
I had nothing to do with the beta. From what ive heard ms wanted vg to use windows vista. Sigil didnt want this so they pulled out.

That's crap, because there is NO WAY IN HELL Vista will be done before Vanguard launches.

altairzq · May 2006

Originally posted by Stradden
Ok guys, it's been a while since the announcement, and we're still getting a whole lot of people creating threads over this issue. It's not that we mind you voicing your opinions, but it makes it difficult for others who would like to learn more about the game.

If you've got something to say on this topic, please post it here. Otherwise, the thread will be deleted / locked.

*Also, remember our Rules of Conduct. Don't step over the line here. Rules will be strictly enforced.

Cheers,

Jon "Stradden" Wood, Community Manager

This is SOE's way to handle the comunity. Great. It shows SOE's hand is very long.

Amathe · May 2006

Originally posted by thomas.hart
I had nothing to do with the beta. From what ive heard ms wanted vg to use windows vista. Sigil didnt want this so they pulled out.

According to Brad, that is a "false rumor", as is the one about the xbox. Now, I don't happen to believe a lot of what Brad says anymore, but for those of you who do, there it is (third or 4th post down in the linked forum).

Vengeful · May 2006

Originally posted by Shayde

Originally posted by thomas.hart
I had nothing to do with the beta. From what ive heard ms wanted vg to use windows vista. Sigil didnt want this so they pulled out.

That's crap, because there is NO WAY IN HELL Vista will be done before Vanguard launches.

Maybe that's what sealed the deal for Sigil then, ailienating their already small playerbase and possibly pushing the game back (which I'll admit is a little odd). One way or another, Microsoft wanted to do somethin' Sigil didn't.

Vengeful · May 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by thomas.hart
I had nothing to do with the beta. From what ive heard ms wanted vg to use windows vista. Sigil didnt want this so they pulled out.

According to Brad, that is a "false rumor", as is the one about the xbox. Now, I don't happen to believe a lot of what Brad says anymore, but for those of you who do, there it is (third or 4th post down in the linked forum).

I'm pretty sure he's not allowed to give out any details about the agreement, so on this subject, I woudn't put a whole lot of weight on what the man says.

hatebreed0 · May 2006

All i got to say is this. As long as SOE doesn't ruin this game like they did Star Wars.

Nikoz78 · May 2006

Originally posted by Malakai
Ahh.... all the unintelligent, immature posts are now on one single, easily ignored thread . I can understand people stating their opinion, but when people keep crying about the same dumb crap over and over for months, it gets a little old. Nice job mmorpg in making the forums a more friendly place for people who would like to learn more about the game's features .

/yawn

Amathe · May 2006

Originally posted by n2sooners

First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

Wildcat84 · May 2006

As someone who played SWG through 2 catastrophic revisions to the system, and one who was (pre-SOE) looking at Vanguard, I give you two hard and solid reasons to avoid _ANY_ MMO that has SOE anywhere near it:

Combat Upgrade
New Game Experience

I rest my case.

Vengeful · May 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by n2sooners
First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

I really don't think it matters too much, because they're the ones who own the Intellectual Property. Perhaps there is a loan, and perhaps there is interest that need be paid back...but whoever made the loan would have as little say in the project as your bank would have on where you drove your car on your next vacation.

Shayde · May 2006

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by n2sooners
First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

Exactly. Brad PROBABLY leveraged the buyout with whatever $OE paid them. Money doesn't just magically appear, especially totals like that.

Vengeful · May 2006

Originally posted by Shayde

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by n2sooners
First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

Exactly. Brad PROBABLY leveraged the buyout with whatever $OE paid them. Money doesn't just magically appear, especially totals like that.

I thought you were in exile, troll.

Money doesn't magically appear, true...but SoE isn't the only one that has money, there are plenty of places the cash could have come from...including banks, stock holders, and the like.

Apache_ · May 2006

Originally posted by Wildcat84
As someone who played SWG through 2 catastrophic revisions to the system, and one who was (pre-SOE) looking at Vanguard, I give you two hard and solid reasons to avoid _ANY_ MMO that has SOE anywhere near it:

Combat Upgrade
New Game Experience

I rest my case.

QFE

I was following Vanguard too, untill I found out that SOE had got involved. Now there is just no way. No way will I ever touch a product that I know SOE is connected with.

Having expierenced first hand what SOE can and will do gives me a strong suspicion that something bad will happen with Vanguard. It might be 6 months or even a year after going live. But knowing SOE....they'll try and pull something

Shayde · May 2006

Originally posted by Vengeful

Originally posted by Shayde

Originally posted by Amathe

Originally posted by n2sooners
First off, you made a mistake in number 4. They didn't need a new financial backer. They bought all the rights from MS without any help from SOE.

OMG that is so naive. So Brad and Jeff broke their piggy banks and came up with the tens of millions of dollars MS invested in this game? Lmao. No. They borrowed money or got investors. Maybe it was SOE, and maybe it was an affiliate of SOE, but even if it wasn't, be sure of one thing - that money wasn't loaned or invested because Brad makes rabbits out of napkins at parties. They would have had to leverage the game itself to raise that level of capital. Somebody other than Sigil now has a say so in the direction of this game, because they have to pay all that money back to someone.

Exactly. Brad PROBABLY leveraged the buyout with whatever $OE paid them. Money doesn't just magically appear, especially totals like that.

I thought you were in exile, troll.

Money doesn't magically appear, true...but SoE isn't the only one that has money, there are plenty of places the cash could have come from...including banks, stock holders, and the like.

First of all, fanboi, how can I be a troll if I'm NOT trolling.

Second of all, the moderator told me to post here when he locked my other thread, so alas... you haven't escaped my witty reparte totally. I was playing nice until you shook my monkey tree genius.

Truedat · May 2006

Let's look at a timeline instead of just quoting Brad.

Time 1: Sigil pitches the game to Microsoft and they like the Vision (tm). They like it so much they are willing to invest many millions of dollars and fund its development over the course of many years.

Time 2: Brad and Co. work on the game for years, all the while touting the freedom MS affords them to make the game the way Sigil wants, and the harmonious relationship they enjoy.

Time 3: Game goes into closed Beta.

Time 4: Suddenly, out of the blue, Sigil needs a new financial backer and a new publisher because of alleged differences with MS about how the game should be made, and an alleged need for more control.

Think about this. What really changed? It's obvious. The beta. MS saw something in the beta that caused them to realize that this was going to be a turd. Why else would they walk away from a return on their investment as the game is approaching launch in the next six months or so? MS saw the feedback and said "fix this crap" and Brad said no and had to buy them out instead.

So the question each of you has to answer is, do you think MS are fools? Do you think they are unable to see the problems? Do you think they just hate money and walked away from something that was clearly going to be a huge success? Do you think they would have had those reservations if, as Brad likes to imply, the beta testers like the game and are raving about how great it is? You know better.

I'm not sure MS exactly knows what goes into making an MMO. I'm not impressed with any of their attempts except for maybe AC1. And I remember with their release of AC2, that MS had turbine release a game that contained none of the ground breaking concepts that Turbine had advertised, and that it was also months earlier than the original release date. Heck AC2 was nothing more than a map with some monsters and that was it. And oh ya, I think we got chat sometimes, but more often than not chat was broken. A lot of times, Microsoft loses money on their secondary businesses outside of their flagship products, so I'm not sure they exactly know to spot a good thing or not.
I don't like Sony much more, but honestly in my eyes they both come out of the same mold. But one thing I do like in SOE over MS is that SOE has shown that they will support a game forever, while MS will drop a game the second it loses popularity.

I still don't like the politics that go into SOE games tho.

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