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The truth about DAoC and PvP (70% say it's important)
Clever_Glove
Member Posts: 996
Billus8 hates PvP. The numbers he posted are completely fictional. Since data is actually taken on the numbers of people like PvP in DAoC I'm going to post those.
http://www.nickyee.com/codeblue/misc.html
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Chess the orginal hardcore PvP game!
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
Yee: Ach: 85% GRE: 65% AFF: 15% Imm 15% Test Click here to learn about it.
Comments
I think everyone deep down wants to do PvP, but no game has solved the critical issues of griefing, balance, and purpose. I really hope somone can solve this, because I do like the excitement of PvP and DAOC is probably the only solution out there that's playable. Not perfect, but still playable.
Nice chart, Clever, however I still stand by my guess that only about 5% of RPG'ers are into the P vs P thing. By "into it", I mean like it, not just put up with it (different thing). Your poll, as your posted stated, was for DAOC. However, my understanding was that DAOC was largely populated by the UO crowd in the beginning. With its R vs R, I could see a good portion of the folks playing DAOC liking their version player versus player system.
However, if you took the Everquest crowd, you'd likely get a different response. There's a reason that Everquest, and similar games, have one or two P vs P servers and 18 to 20 (or however many) non- PvsP servers.
MMORPG's are social games (i.e. chat rooms merged with some sort of fantasy game), and not unlike the table top Dungeons and Dragons game of days past. Folks in those games cooperated and played to have fun. They don't mind excitement and a casualty here and there, but largely they do not want to end their gaming day by getting ganked by surprise. No one I know likes to be ganked. Not much fun in getting ganked. Can't enjoy exploring the dungeon when your biggest fear isn't the inhabitants but rather some wandering group of P vs P gankers.
Another thing about P vs P, I've played Shadowbane and DAOC's realm vs. realm, and I've not been that impressed with P vs P'ers anyway. Though I'm personally not into P vs P, I found it fairly easy to "gank the gankers" when they thought they were sneaking up on my group. (If someone's going to continually do something they ought to at least develop some level of skill at.)
No, I'll take the more challenging NPC monster AI over P vs P shenanigans any day of the week. Got to have some challenge.
There nothing wrong with not enjoying PvP, there are many types of MMORPG's for every type of player.
If you don't like PvP, more power to you. But allot of people do, and I won't tolerate the posting outright fabrications.
Since your in the DAoC forums, we'll be talking about DAoC. There is a general forum for general comments about MMORPG's witch you have made use of, and your more than welcome to talk about EQ in the EQ forums.
Since the major focus of DAoC is RvR I think it's safe to assume that most will enjoy that fascet of the game. Otherwise they would play something else.
You need accept some people enjoy something that you, yourself do not.
Best wishes.
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Chess the original hardcore PvP game!
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
Yee: Ach: 85% GRE: 65% AFF: 15% Imm 15% Test Click here to learn about it.
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Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
Clever, I don't mind folks being for P vs. P, I just felt that the push on these boards that P vs. P elements be in every new MMORPG is not reasonable. I think if you take the new Everquest 2, for example, which I predict to be a big hit, and if you were to make it P vs. P it would ruin the game for a lot of folks.
The problems with P vs. P really come down to levels. Someone who is level 50 in a P vs P game is going to toast the level 20 opposition every time. There are few things as frustrating as trying to venture out from town to explore a dungeon or the local wilderness, and suddenly find yourself ganked by an invisible rogue who was 30 levels higher than yourself. Nothing you can do about it really, except perhaps not venture from town.
Someone had a good idea about P vs. P and that was to have it geared so that any P vs P was on equal footing, even if the levels were disparate. There has to be some counter to the level 50 gankers who prey on noobs. Otherwise, the game world takes a back seat to P vs P.
But like you say, to each his own.
There is a push for PvP in MMORPG's, nearly all newer games will have it some form. Even EQ2 has claimed to have better PvP since it will be a consideration from the beginning. The idea is behind this is why alienate a large percentage of your user base? DAoC if anything has proven you can have PvP and still have people that hate PvP play. DAoC is PvP centric.. yet no one is force to participate. As a game company if you can make money from those that love PvP and those that hate it at the same time... why wouldn't you implament it?
BG's and RvR are a means a simple answer to the "level imbalance". DAoC has taken strides to create a balance. If you wander out into RvR pre-50, you know what's going to happen. There is a common sense element to all PvP. Other game companies have other methods to even this out.
Level 50 "whatevers" can't prey on low levels, except in DF and no forces them to enter. The increase in exp, cash and loot comes with some risk. But even so, it's a extremely minimal one for the gain.
PvP in DAoC is the most sterile of any game PvP centric game I've played.
I expect to see DAoC style PvP in many new MMORPG. (WoW and MOE for example)
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Chess the original hardcore PvP game!
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
Yee: Ach: 85% GRE: 65% AFF: 15% Imm 15% Test Click here to learn about it.
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Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
The reason it has become sterile in DAOC is because every class has some cookie cutter template that everyone seems to follow not to mention it seems like everyone has a Buff Bot.
Go to the VN boards and you will see what I mean. Don't get me wrong, you can pick up some nice information from those boards. But a lot of it is garbage. I learned the best way to enjoy the game is to customize my character the way I want and not worry about the math geniuses over there tell you that pierce weapons are better than blades versus assasins because ....blah blah blah.
Then another guy will tell you it isn't so and have his own set of numbers to back it up.
Whatever happened to the fun?
You ask what happened to the fun?
Power gamers happened, and I must admit that I have been a powergamer myself. In the end, it is not worth it to powergame, it ruins the game.
Greetings,
Cyberwiz.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
PvP in DaoC is sterile because it's not across all zones, you don't pick your team they assign you one and you can't talk to enemy members.
DAoC has mades strides to turn fighting people much the same as fighting mobs, except they have a better AI... most of the time.
This is a good thing for some, not so much for others.
As for the power gamer comments? What is a power gamer exactly? Someone that plays allot? Someone that plays to win, and trys to learn the game so they may have a advantage? What you said doesn't make any sense. It's was like you said "It ruins monopoly when you read the rules and try to win"
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Chess the original hardcore PvP game!
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% Test learn what it means here.
Yee: Ach: 85% GRE: 65% AFF: 15% Imm 15% Test Click here to learn about it.
-=-=-=-=-
Achievers realise that killers as a concept are necessary in order to make achievement meaningful and worthwhile (there being no way to "lose" the game if any fool can "win" just by plodding slowly unchallenged). -bartle
Bartle: A: 93% E: 55% S:3% K: 50% The Test. Learn what it means here.
Using that logic, the PvP on Mordred must be GREAT!... except, of course, it's not. The vast majority of people who tried the ruleset out eventually left. It's pretty clear that, however important RvR is, most people do NOT want it to be going on all the time.
DAoC RvR (there IS a distinction between the terms, so let's use the right one) is 'sterile' because there's very little strategy. The team with more numbers wins. Even in small group fights or one-on-one, it almost always comes down to what RAs or MLs you have, or what class you are, rather than anything you as the player do during the fight. It takes a lot of the fun out of the fight when it isn't YOU winning, but your character.
No, his comment is really more like saying "it ruins Monopoly when you use statistical analysis to figure out which properties are worth owning, and how many houses to buy, and completely disregard actually having fun." Winning is fun, sure... but most of the time you're not winning, you're trying to get to the point where you can win. And whether you enjoy the destination or not, you'll not have had as much fun as you could if you didn't enjoy the journey.Uriel
Webmaster Light, Classes of Camelot
Type like an idiot, in a medium where the only thing people see is your typing, and they'll think you're an idiot.
Uriel
Webmaster, Classes of Camelot
RR4L3 50 Reaver of Pendragon
Type like an idiot, in a medium where the only thing people see is your typing, and they'll think you're an idiot.
I agree that people don't want RvR or PvP going on all the time. I never played on Modred or the PvP servers but i can imagine trying to hunt some camp so I can lvl and some guy comes up behind me, kills me and me getting pissed off. Then if you have the ability to talk to the enemy, he is calling you "newb" while your reaching for the release button....yeah that sounds like fun to me.
As far as who has the most numbers, isn't that how real battles are won? Usually whoever has the most troops can overwealm the enemy.
The only problem I have with this is that Albion always has the most numbers. That is the real problem.