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Game/On Podcast: Opinions on Recent EIB Scam
lowrads
Member UncommonPosts: 200
in EVE Online
Just finished listening to the new podcast over here. I have to say, I felt it was a little one-sided. I'm not sure that either Garret or Jon plays EVE, so I'll give them the benefit of doubt.
Now I can't speak for all players of EVE, especially not newer ones. But for myself and probably many others, I think what the EIB did was completely within the bounds of acceptable gameplay.
When I pick up a chess piece, or artfully slip monopoly money up my sleeve, I am not playing against the game mechanics, I am playing against my nephews. It doesn't matter if we are missing a couple checkers, because we can still play, and pretty much just have to deal with it because cookies and jellybean replacements are subject to arbitrary rules anyhow.
There are other games which won't even let you play Bingo. I find this odd, which is why I don't play them. At the end of the day though, there is always competition, and there is a limit to what GMs can do. For example, above simple game mechanics, there is always social dynamics, and people can be a bigger challenge than anything in the game. Got a dispute with a guild lieutenant? How you deal with it is a measure of your personal charisma and personality. You can leave for another guild, sabotage their reputation, foment overthrow at a plebian level, headhunt some of the better members and leave to form another guild, or you can just shrink down and knuckle under. Unmitigatable reality.
In EVE, we have a cruel universe inhospitable to the human condition. There is no golden rule in play. And that's just how I and quite a few others like it. There are trillionaires in game. Guess what, they played the odds, and possession is 10/10s of that universe's own "natural law". I'd love to have billions like that, even better, I'd love to have [b]their[/b] billions.
The scammer might not quite have "won EVE," simply because winning is a vague and arbitrary statement in a free form, but the assessment that he "has missed the point of EVE" is downright wierd. But as I said, you guys seem to be outsiders to EVE culture, so maybe you can't be expected to understand it.
There are a lot of metagaming groups in EVE, which is where I put most new players and outsiders. These are the guys that play nice and don't take risks. Some corporations though are properly hypercapitalistic corporations. Some will dismiss you outright if you absorb more capital than you produce and will tell you to clean out your desk or simply make you Kill On Sight to the corporation. Many will reject you unless you have excellent credentials. There are whole swaths of content that may stay remote from the plebian classes. Now most of CCP's content is accessible to the truly determined. However, much of the content is also created by the players, and they are very paranoid.
Why is paranoia acceptable? Because we are operating in a [i]free[/i] space. It's not perfectly free, but it's pretty close. You have liberty not only in ideas and positions, but also that total license in movement and action which sometimes replaces the former. For some, liberty is the means to do right by others, and hopefully to be recognized for it. For others, it's do to wrong and try to get away with it, or get known for it if you prefer. We can do business here, have free associations, and conspire to do harm. Additionally, we can do it all on the basis of very limited trust.
There is always the possiblity that one can achieve through talent what one cannot achieve through persistence. There is also the possibility to horribly and embarassingly fail. I think it is the possiblity of failure that gives a little bit of meaning to any action or relationship. Any game can have this, but no game has this if the people involved aren't thinking about trying to inject it in anywhere it can slip past.
The EIB was pretty much a simple Ponzi scheme in the end, but as an out of game service, it held interesting promise. Most people involved were just thinking, "oh, absurd interest at the end of the week" and they pretty much deserved to be scammed for being greedy imbeciles. There are lots of other Initial Public Offers or other investment opportunities in legit EVE businesses which are worthwhile, but which generally pay at a reasonable rate. Some of these OOG or ingame services are innovative and expand the possibilities of gameplay. These are to be welcomed. I myself was interested in the EIB simply because I thought it would give me more tools to make trades.
I didn't invest in the project, but I did attempt to use the service to see if it would be useful later on. That money is probably gone although the remaining members of EIB are liquidating assets to return to clients. That money is gone, but I don't really mind. I know to keep my assets in diversified portfolios in case of risk. That loss was a measured risk and doesn't really cripple my enterprises at all. I will not be seeking it back. That was my little sprig of figs, and it's what you use to determine whether a group of players are on the level or not. If I'd invested, there was always the possibility that the organization could go bottom-up even with the most well-meaning of project managers.
You talk about value being stolen or lost in the game.. value had to be
created in the first place, and then agreed upon. Because people play
EVE for what it is, sometimes the time in that space has value, but
it's a contingent value that relies upon EVE remaining what it is. All
gain is relational. All assets and reputation are merely tools to get
others to do something similar to what you want. Because there are no
safety nets, reputation is the most valuable commodity in our little
community.
You don't even have to scam to do things that are horrible to people. If you're into the RP of EVE, nobody is innocent. You can target miners or industrialists, or hire other people to do the same on an anonymous basis. You can be a gangster or a predatory lender, or be a ceo that takes in new players and basically farms them because of their generous and eager nature. All completely acceptable and in some cases, so common the players in question won't even mind or realize what's what. A huge swath of the playerbase has no imagination to do more than grind npcs or go semi-afk next to asteroids. Plenty of alliances use their members as a meal ticket with only the promise of npcs for the man hours they extract from them. Why should you feel bad about taking advantage of them? What ground do you stand on to condemn anyone else for doing so? Now if it's profitable to hunt them down, well go for it. However, you are probably going to make more money through a successful entrepreneurial venture that gives thoughtful and profit-oriented clients the ability to make more money if they pay you. They will walk a tightrope with no net if the potential reward is out there. They'll take a risk on the basis of [i]real[/i] trust.
What sort of ventures are these? Well, when you get right down to it, new ventures are concieved everyday to make the life of an average player easier or more efficient through organization and specialization. The limit really stops at the player's imagination. Real entrepreneurs are like artists though. If you have the talent but not the vision, you're just going to emulate others. If you have the vision, and not the talent, then nobody is going to hear you. If you have both, then fate takes a hard look at you.
Now I can't speak for all players of EVE, especially not newer ones. But for myself and probably many others, I think what the EIB did was completely within the bounds of acceptable gameplay.
When I pick up a chess piece, or artfully slip monopoly money up my sleeve, I am not playing against the game mechanics, I am playing against my nephews. It doesn't matter if we are missing a couple checkers, because we can still play, and pretty much just have to deal with it because cookies and jellybean replacements are subject to arbitrary rules anyhow.
There are other games which won't even let you play Bingo. I find this odd, which is why I don't play them. At the end of the day though, there is always competition, and there is a limit to what GMs can do. For example, above simple game mechanics, there is always social dynamics, and people can be a bigger challenge than anything in the game. Got a dispute with a guild lieutenant? How you deal with it is a measure of your personal charisma and personality. You can leave for another guild, sabotage their reputation, foment overthrow at a plebian level, headhunt some of the better members and leave to form another guild, or you can just shrink down and knuckle under. Unmitigatable reality.
In EVE, we have a cruel universe inhospitable to the human condition. There is no golden rule in play. And that's just how I and quite a few others like it. There are trillionaires in game. Guess what, they played the odds, and possession is 10/10s of that universe's own "natural law". I'd love to have billions like that, even better, I'd love to have [b]their[/b] billions.
The scammer might not quite have "won EVE," simply because winning is a vague and arbitrary statement in a free form, but the assessment that he "has missed the point of EVE" is downright wierd. But as I said, you guys seem to be outsiders to EVE culture, so maybe you can't be expected to understand it.
There are a lot of metagaming groups in EVE, which is where I put most new players and outsiders. These are the guys that play nice and don't take risks. Some corporations though are properly hypercapitalistic corporations. Some will dismiss you outright if you absorb more capital than you produce and will tell you to clean out your desk or simply make you Kill On Sight to the corporation. Many will reject you unless you have excellent credentials. There are whole swaths of content that may stay remote from the plebian classes. Now most of CCP's content is accessible to the truly determined. However, much of the content is also created by the players, and they are very paranoid.
Why is paranoia acceptable? Because we are operating in a [i]free[/i] space. It's not perfectly free, but it's pretty close. You have liberty not only in ideas and positions, but also that total license in movement and action which sometimes replaces the former. For some, liberty is the means to do right by others, and hopefully to be recognized for it. For others, it's do to wrong and try to get away with it, or get known for it if you prefer. We can do business here, have free associations, and conspire to do harm. Additionally, we can do it all on the basis of very limited trust.
There is always the possiblity that one can achieve through talent what one cannot achieve through persistence. There is also the possibility to horribly and embarassingly fail. I think it is the possiblity of failure that gives a little bit of meaning to any action or relationship. Any game can have this, but no game has this if the people involved aren't thinking about trying to inject it in anywhere it can slip past.
The EIB was pretty much a simple Ponzi scheme in the end, but as an out of game service, it held interesting promise. Most people involved were just thinking, "oh, absurd interest at the end of the week" and they pretty much deserved to be scammed for being greedy imbeciles. There are lots of other Initial Public Offers or other investment opportunities in legit EVE businesses which are worthwhile, but which generally pay at a reasonable rate. Some of these OOG or ingame services are innovative and expand the possibilities of gameplay. These are to be welcomed. I myself was interested in the EIB simply because I thought it would give me more tools to make trades.
I didn't invest in the project, but I did attempt to use the service to see if it would be useful later on. That money is probably gone although the remaining members of EIB are liquidating assets to return to clients. That money is gone, but I don't really mind. I know to keep my assets in diversified portfolios in case of risk. That loss was a measured risk and doesn't really cripple my enterprises at all. I will not be seeking it back. That was my little sprig of figs, and it's what you use to determine whether a group of players are on the level or not. If I'd invested, there was always the possibility that the organization could go bottom-up even with the most well-meaning of project managers.
You talk about value being stolen or lost in the game.. value had to be
created in the first place, and then agreed upon. Because people play
EVE for what it is, sometimes the time in that space has value, but
it's a contingent value that relies upon EVE remaining what it is. All
gain is relational. All assets and reputation are merely tools to get
others to do something similar to what you want. Because there are no
safety nets, reputation is the most valuable commodity in our little
community.
You don't even have to scam to do things that are horrible to people. If you're into the RP of EVE, nobody is innocent. You can target miners or industrialists, or hire other people to do the same on an anonymous basis. You can be a gangster or a predatory lender, or be a ceo that takes in new players and basically farms them because of their generous and eager nature. All completely acceptable and in some cases, so common the players in question won't even mind or realize what's what. A huge swath of the playerbase has no imagination to do more than grind npcs or go semi-afk next to asteroids. Plenty of alliances use their members as a meal ticket with only the promise of npcs for the man hours they extract from them. Why should you feel bad about taking advantage of them? What ground do you stand on to condemn anyone else for doing so? Now if it's profitable to hunt them down, well go for it. However, you are probably going to make more money through a successful entrepreneurial venture that gives thoughtful and profit-oriented clients the ability to make more money if they pay you. They will walk a tightrope with no net if the potential reward is out there. They'll take a risk on the basis of [i]real[/i] trust.
What sort of ventures are these? Well, when you get right down to it, new ventures are concieved everyday to make the life of an average player easier or more efficient through organization and specialization. The limit really stops at the player's imagination. Real entrepreneurs are like artists though. If you have the talent but not the vision, you're just going to emulate others. If you have the vision, and not the talent, then nobody is going to hear you. If you have both, then fate takes a hard look at you.
Comments
Whats sad is people think scamming is some "feature" of Eve. Oh Eve is so different you can scam people.
You can scam people in any chatroom.
You can lure little kids to your house for sex. You can scam gullible people into signing over their life savings.
Ppl glorify this crap like it's something new or innovative.
A pyramid scheme in Eve, oh wow, I'm shocked. SHOCKED.
Too the podcast guys, it's not the scammer who missed the point of EVE, it's you.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Too the podcast guys, it's not the scammer who missed the point of EVE, it's you.
Funny how they approve of scamming yet selling timecodes for isk is a guaranteed transaction.
Scamming is prohibited when CCP is getting its cut.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
true.
things like the EIB scamm or the famous Guiding Hand one are one of the reasons i am playing EVE. the only thing i dont like ab out these scamms is that most of them involve alts, and this is something i thing devs got wrong. they should have launched the game without the possibility of creating 3 characters per account. only one would have been much better.
Both the EIB and Shogatsu scams involved out-of-game mechanics, they both involved multiple characters/accounts.
Didn't BoB admit to purchasing a character and to use as a corp spy?
What is the RL money value of the EIB scam? A few hundred dollars? The perp can now sell his isk for timecodes which cost RL cash.
You can committ a scam over yahoo chat. Its the same thing. A chatroom is a chatroom, whether its a chatroom in Eve or a chatroom in IRC, whether you are scamming RL cash, or you are scamming Isk that you trade for RL cash.
true.
things like the EIB scamm or the famous Guiding Hand one are one of the reasons i am playing EVE. the only thing i dont like ab out these scamms is that most of them involve alts, and this is something i thing devs got wrong. they should have launched the game without the possibility of creating 3 characters per account. only one would have been much better.
The MMORPG scene right now sucks.
Its because there are no good entertaining games out right now.
Thats why we have grown men kicking each other in the balls for entertainment.
true.
things like the EIB scamm or the famous Guiding Hand one are one of the reasons i am playing EVE. the only thing i dont like ab out these scamms is that most of them involve alts, and this is something i thing devs got wrong. they should have launched the game without the possibility of creating 3 characters per account. only one would have been much better.
The MMORPG scene right now sucks.
Its because there are no good entertaining games out right now.
Thats why we have grown men kicking each other in the balls for entertainment.
well, that may be your opinion, i am enjoying my game time a lot and i dont have any complaints at all. if you dont like any MMORPG you can play single player games, or even make your own MMORPG.
complaining aint gonna take you anywhere.
true.
things like the EIB scamm or the famous Guiding Hand one are one of the reasons i am playing EVE. the only thing i dont like ab out these scamms is that most of them involve alts, and this is something i thing devs got wrong. they should have launched the game without the possibility of creating 3 characters per account. only one would have been much better.
The MMORPG scene right now sucks.
Its because there are no good entertaining games out right now.
Thats why we have grown men kicking each other in the balls for entertainment.
well, that may be your opinion, i am enjoying my game time a lot and i dont have any complaints at all. if you dont like any MMORPG you can play single player games, or even make your own MMORPG.
complaining aint gonna take you anywhere.
It happens to be my opinion too. Mmorpgs seem to be headed down hill. The playerbase in these games gets younger and younger. And like that x developer from Daoc said.. these games are made for the nich hardcore crowd now. Eve online is a game where you can do what you want to anyone. Scams happen all the time in this game. Its almost part of the gameplay. I have a friend that started playing the game after earth & beyond closed. Every time we talk about it, its more like he's venting his frustration. But he's put 4 years into his characters and feels like he can't quit.
This thread is bragging about scamming being an Eve "feature" and I call bullschit.
People been scamming ever since Diablo, and probably earlier.
Shooting bottle-rockets out of your bunghole a la "Jackass : The Movie" does not constitute gaming goodness.
Its funny, yes. Entertaining, yes. But people shouldn't have to do it.
Publicising the EIB scam is like saying "Our game is SO devoid of
entertainment value, our players kick each other in the nuts for fun."
Scamming is prohibited when it involves out of game/ out of character things like real money or character ownership etc. The distiction is very clear imho.
Both the EIB and Shogatsu scams involved out-of-game mechanics, they both involved multiple characters/accounts.
Didn't BoB admit to purchasing a character and to use as a corp spy?
What is the RL money value of the EIB scam? A few hundred dollars? The perp can now sell his isk for timecodes which cost RL cash.
You can committ a scam over yahoo chat. Its the same thing. A chatroom is a chatroom, whether its a chatroom in Eve or a chatroom in IRC, whether you are scamming RL cash, or you are scamming Isk that you trade for RL cash.
RL money value of the EIB scam? Just around 100.000$. No kidding. It's 700bil isk we're talking about.
My whole stand on this scam is.. It's perfectly acceptable. PvP isn't just blowing each other ships off. You can be killed every, physically and economically. People took a risk, and they knew it. They fell for it. Had they been carefull, they wouldn't have lost the money. It's like warping around .4 space, getting killed, and then whinning about it. You knew the risk was there all along. And you took the chance anway.
This is not life savings, this does no harm to any individuals. This is VIRTUAL MONEY. Take a look at the real world market, it's exactly the same. You ain't safe there. You can invest, you can loose your money.
Scamming for virtual money should in no way be compared to ruining peoples life/molesting children.
You can play a game where you can actually -kill- virtual characters. What's next? Will you give a preach about how you can walk out on the street and burn babies, and then rant about how people glorifies it? OPEN YOUR EYES!
That line is getting more and more blurred. I've heard of wardecs over posts on private webpages, TS/Vent blackmail, GM payoffs, and all sorts of things. I have a feeling its going to get worse as the game goes on.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
But what have any of this got to do with scamming and being banned/not banned for it? The line is still very clear what is allowed and not when it concern scamming.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
That line is getting more and more blurred. I've heard of wardecs over posts on private webpages, TS/Vent blackmail, GM payoffs, and all sorts of things. I have a feeling its going to get worse as the game goes on.
hey, you better got any facts to back it up or you'll have to drop those accusations. it is lame to use that sentence "i've heard..." it is cobard.
TS Snooping
Here Too
IG crap over OOG sigs
As far as GM cheating is concerned, I can post where people accuse, and I can post where GMs have been caught cheating, but no proof or lack therof will prove or disprove it. When they make official announcements, they do something about it, but there are more accusations here than any other game I have seen, with the exception of emus and greyshards.
If any game is suseptable to this sort of thing, its EVE though. Its not like you can go to a different server, and its not like the firm is so huge, they have any cred to lose. I mean, the staff drinks beers with alliances, and are friends with subscribers from the old days. Its too "chummy chummy" between CCP and some of the players for us to think that they are going to be fair, when push comes to shove.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
This is not a kids game. Mommy's not there to make sure everybody gets the same size potato.
The devs are there to make things INTERESTING. They get chummy with the players that KEEP the game interesting.
There is no doubt that certain members of the community are what inspire the other %99.
I'm talking about ISS, BoB, Istvan Shogatsu, UK/CVA, Dentara Rast, Dark Shikari, Jade Constantine, and so forth.
These are forum celebs that influence the storyline. There is no way for them to do that unless the Devs get personally involved with these people and see them as what they truly are, Community Leaders.
So if they sit down and have a beer with (for example) Sir Molle, they're not having a beer with Sir Molle, they're having a beer with the community, because hundreds of players identify Molle as their social packleader.
If Molle says "you know it'd be nice to have X Y Z" they're gonna listen, because by consensus he speaks for a large portion of the community.
Same goes for other "celebrities."
Heck look at ISS. I don't know who the f*ck "Count Tasessine" is, but look at what he built. A civilian infrastructure in 0.0, that's a beautiful concept.
If the devs had any brain at all they WOULD have a beer with this guy and get chummy, we need more people with that kind of imagination and vision.
There are the people that DRIVE the game.
Not the %99 of the playerbase whose only thought is to go mine something or do another mission.
Those %99 don't drive the game forward, they dont have any ideas, they have no imagination, nothing they say even matters because they are looking for the game to move THEM, not the other way around.
Eve isnt there to entertain you. Its not there to drive you forward into a pre-built story. Its the other way around, the PLAYERS drive the story forward.
And those players are the %1 elite who are chummy with the devs. They drive the story forward because they also drive the game forward. They are the ISS, the BoBs, the Veto's, the Jericho Fractions, the Ushra'Khans, that actually drive the story forward.
Stop comparing Eve to "MMORPG's" there is no comparison.
When you say "some of the players" you fail to realize that almost all of those are spread out over different alliances all shooting at each other. And I have yet to see even 1 singel evidence that CCP employes are favoring alliances or players ingame, if it's happening as much as you claim then such evidence shouldn't be hard to produce.
BUT again, what have ANY of this got to do with CCP banning or not banning someone for scamming in or out of game? If you want to futher your agenda against eve make your own thread and keep this on topic.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
In my 2 and a half years of playing EVE I have never been scammed, nor do I know anyone who lost more than a few mill from a scam. People who DO get scammed are getting scammed, because they are greedy, and want something for virtually nothing, or don't pay attention.
It only shows the freedom of EVE that you can do scams too, although I admit that I don't like that you have little or no tools to prosecute scammers as a player. So the best is not to let them happen at all. Always lock hangars, only allow certain people you trust 100% access to critical items, ALWAYS check escrow, ALWAYS check show info when buying an item via trade window. If you are too lazy or can't be bothered to do those simple measures, then don't complain afterwards that you got scammed.
No matter if it's Istvaan or that EIB guy. They could only pull it of, because people threw away common sense (in the case of Istvaan and Ubiqa Seraph the blueprints hangar was unlocked, and in the case of EIB people had enough of forewarning that it was a scam, yet didn't realize it or didn't WANTED to realize).
And as it was already said, scamming was not invented in EVE, (other games had serious problems with that too before, like eg Diablo), yet the free gameplay of EVE allows it and so people need to be aware, when they get offered "the deal of their life".
------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
I have now started liquidating my assets and selling those through Ebay. Once that is done, I will contact my CC company and get as much from the subscription money back that I can.
CCP enjoys seeing carebears get screwed over, but even those carebears have teeth if angered properly.
If you get screwed over in any scams in EVE you are either: 1. Stupid or 2. Inexpierenced. I tell every new player in the game to my corp to avoid escrow till you have a good solid grasp of both game mechanics and the value of items in game. I tell them to watch for anything thatsounds to good to be true or that there are no ingame guarntees.
Eve is very much a simulation of RL in many aspects. Scams are everywhere in hte Real World and in many cases you won't even be able to go to a authority figure to attempt to get your money back.
Still , what he did was metagaming
It is totally diferent to scam people , get away with it AND CONTINUE PLAYING
Than scam people and than quit the character ...
One would be gameplay scam , kudos to him for managing to pull it of. While the later is simply METAGAME EXPLOIT the fact that although EVE simulates economy - it is far away from doing that succesfully
BECAUSE EVE can not and has no system of Currency control.
What i mean is , AND IN PURELY ANARCHISTIC SIMPLETON terms. When for some reason A owns money to B - he can either 1.give it to B , 2. Not give it to B - in which case B kills him and gets money anyway
He can not 3. Log out and phase out of existance (surelly he can hide , but there is arisk of being caught , and it is not the same fail safe way as quitting the char)
In my oppinion EVE must deal with this. Perhaps make NPC character that simulates hiding culprit , let players try to find him...somehow the ISK must be returned to the economy...
Everything else just screams
"This game is ridden with exploits"
"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas
And this is Eve-online...Proud of your game there CCP. GHSC did it all from within the boundries of the game mechanics...
So did EIB. Damn wished I had figured that scam out my self...$100,000.00USD is nothing to snicker about. But the GM's and Dev wont step in to end this type of "Play"
Why cause its a "Player" ran game...meaning the GM's are only there to enforce the game rules and help out when the game it self goes bad. You as a player are expected to solve your problems via lasers and missles. Not go crying to CCP "waaaaaa he scamed me and took all my isk" Zeppo the most famous of all scammers is proof positive....
But if you really want revenge....sue the bastard in RL.