4 pages of idiocy, the hardcore's don't wanna give up, mediators have tried to douse the flames, but to no avail.
Now, you UO argument, I've been told by 80%, yes 80 PERCENT of the Internet community that the ganking and general stupidity in that game got so high that a gigantic exodus happened (and an exodus is a very large migration of sorts) and UO lost a massive amount of players, all because you people lost your main targets, people who could not possibly fight back.
You inherently set off a chain reaction that dooms a game. A new player enters a game, he knows there's PvP and he hopes to one day be strong enough to participate, there are other aspects of this game he likes, but after 2 weeks of difficult leveling, learning, and exploration he's now level 25 and progressing well, but he doesn't have enough money to store his items in a bank. But here comes Mr. Level 80 with his Tier 10 uber armor gained from 5 months of constant play. With a few swift strokes the newbie falls and boom, the bastard dances on his corps and takes his items, if only to piss him off.
And so, crushed, he tries again, only to suffer the fate again, he leaves, telling people the game has a horrid community, game goes under.
Don't insult people because of their play styles, because it reveals your over bloated ego and how desperate for targets you really are.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
UO still has a full ganking server. Shadowbane is another FFA PVP game out there. Instead of complaining, why doesn't the smallish, so called hardcore PvP community go back to those games? Surely you all would be happy PvPing against others that are like minded or are the carebears right in when they believe that you won't go back and just fight amongst yourselves, because you actually wanted ganking instead of PvP.
Originally posted by srohek A carebear is someone who would rather fight the computer than an actual person.
A carebear is someone who doesn't like to lose.
A carebear doesn't want to be penalized when he does lose.
A carebear thinks he is better than someone else because he invested more time into the game than them.
A carebear thinks that all PvPers are antisocial people who get their jollies from making other people's life miserable.
A carebear does not prefer that player skill determines the outcome of battles.
Wrong on a couple points there bud.
You are confusing hard core old school pvper with FPS game player.
UO was the start of real true graphical pvp. In that game you gained levels (betters said, you leveld up your skills and stats) and yeah you h ad to have some skill but you also had to have the levels. Level without skill got you killed and skill without levels did the same.
If you want a jump around like a retard while shooting a bazooka that can 1 shot people and emoting /omgwtfijustpwned you while having an headshot cheat active, then you are not a hard core pvper. You are just a poser and someone who does not know what mmorpg pvpers are about.
Originally posted by sebbonx I have a signature just for you stupid "hardcore" players, and YOUR days are the one numbered!
the phrase "hardcore" has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. It's PvP'ers vs Non PvP'ers. It's black and fucking white.
In the long run- the people who have a compulsive aversion to PvP are going to lose dominance. If you look at some of the most prevelant games across the ages- board games, card games- whatever- they are PvP games. This is what people want, have always wanted- to fuck with eachother, compete, and say ha ha I'm better than you- and it isn't going to change because it's electronic, virtual, or impersonal.
Get that through your fucking skull.
The MMO market as we know it represents a size of the population that amounts to a fly's dick on a horses ass. It doesn't take a god damn genius to see where MMO is headed when the market expands from online gaming becoming easily accessible...
i.e. Console gamers getting ever increasing access to online gaming; and cross-platform online gaming; cheaper computers that are more powerful, faster and more affordable internet access- blah blah fucking blah.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
it's been a while since i've read these boards. I guess I forgot how utterly childish people here can be. I wish this carebear crap would die. Are people so insecure they really need to label other mmorpg fans carebear so they can feel better about themselves? Let's just make informative labels for mmorpg enthusiasts. 1: People who enjoy the challenge PVP creates. 2: Pathetic people that enjoy being mean to other people and getting away with it. (this gives the previous group a bad name) 3: People who simply don't like pvp 4: People who don't like being griefed by group 2.
Originally posted by sebbonx I have a signature just for you stupid "hardcore" players, and YOUR days are the one numbered!
the phrase "hardcore" has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. It's PvP'ers vs Non PvP'ers. It's black and fucking white.
In the long run- the people who have a compulsive aversion to PvP are going to lose dominance. If you look at some of the most prevelant games across the ages- board games, card games- whatever- they are PvP games. This is what people want, have always wanted- to fuck with eachother, compete, and say ha ha I'm better than you- and it isn't going to change because it's electronic, virtual, or impersonal.
Get that through your fucking skull.
The MMO market as we know it represents a size of the population that amounts to a fly's dick on a horses ass. It doesn't take a god damn genius to see where MMO is headed when the market expands from online gaming becoming easily accessible...
i.e. Console gamers getting ever increasing access to online gaming; and cross-platform online gaming; cheaper computers that are more powerful, faster and more affordable internet access- blah blah fucking blah.
This can be pretty easily argued. The most popular games are competitive, not people ganking, griefing or killing each other. Cards, for most people are competitive, not about grief.
And take a look at the number of people that play professionally and the number that do not. There are far far fewer people that really really play as pvp but tons that play as competition. Competition is not just pvp, that is just one aspect
I do agree that pvp will get bigger but there will always be rules, FFA PVP will not get much bigger. I still think the funnest pvp type game I ever played was that James Bond game golden eye. However one reason it was fun was because I really did not lose any time invested. But it was thrilling to skulk around and no someone else was hunting me. If I had to train him up for 6 months, I would not be as willing to risk him.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by sebbonx I have a signature just for you stupid "hardcore" players, and YOUR days are the one numbered!
the phrase "hardcore" has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. It's PvP'ers vs Non PvP'ers. It's black and fucking white.
In the long run- the people who have a compulsive aversion to PvP are going to lose dominance. If you look at some of the most prevelant games across the ages- board games, card games- whatever- they are PvP games. This is what people want, have always wanted- to fuck with eachother, compete, and say ha ha I'm better than you- and it isn't going to change because it's electronic, virtual, or impersonal.
Get that through your fucking skull.
The MMO market as we know it represents a size of the population that amounts to a fly's dick on a horses ass. It doesn't take a god damn genius to see where MMO is headed when the market expands from online gaming becoming easily accessible...
i.e. Console gamers getting ever increasing access to online gaming; and cross-platform online gaming; cheaper computers that are more powerful, faster and more affordable internet access- blah blah fucking blah.
1st... Fuck is not an adjective...no reason to punctuate your post with it for emphasis..not if you want to be taken seroiusly.
2nd... You're wrong. Most people dislike unrestricted, FFA PvP. They almost always want safe zones, protections for new players, protection from high level ganking etc. Almost any game or server that has tried unrestricted PvP has gone down in flames. EvE is a notable exception, but I'd argue that accumulating wealth is somewhat easy there (from what other players have posted, not my personal experience) so there's no real loss when you get ganked coming out of a portal
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by srohek A carebear is someone who would rather fight the computer than an actual person.
A carebear is someone who doesn't like to lose.
A carebear doesn't want to be penalized when he does lose.
A carebear thinks he is better than someone else because he invested more time into the game than them.
A carebear thinks that all PvPers are antisocial people who get their jollies from making other people's life miserable.
A carebear does not prefer that player skill determines the outcome of battles.
Most of these are close to my definition of an MMOG carebear. But, I would like to point out that a carebear is not someone who doesn't like to lose, because nobody likes to lose, but rather, a carebear is someone who can't handle losing.
And, interestingly enough, every description you gave deals with losing in some way:
A carebear is someone who would rather fight the computer than an actual person, because a computer is predictable and with practice can be predictably defeated, minimizing the chance of loss.
A carebear is someone who doesn't like to lose, or rather, a carebear is someone who can't handle losing.
A carebear doesn't want to be penalized when he does lose, because he can't handle losing anything.
A carebear thinks he is better than someone else because he invested more time into the game than them, reducing his chance of loss by aquiring superior equipment and more powerful abilities.
A carebear thinks that all PvPers are antisocial people who get their jollies from making other people's life miserable, or in otherwords, carebears label competitive players as evil or antisocial, even in a video game, in order to deamonize them and make arguments against competitive gameplay in order to reduce their chance of loss.
A carebear does not prefer that player skill determines the outcome of battles, they prefer not to be competitive and rather win buy having the most or best stuff, reducing their chance of loss due to poor skill.
So in summary, a carebear is simply defined as a non-competitve MMOG player that cannot handle losing.
Originally posted by goneglockin the phrase "hardcore" has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. It's PvP'ers vs Non PvP'ers. It's black and fucking white.
No, though most people who use the term 'carebear' are dumb enough to think that. It's the 'hardcore' PVPers, who want games with no safe zones, no protection against ganking, and full-loot on death vs everyone else - including PVPers like me who have no interest in full-loot setups or in games where ganking newbies is easy. The fact that the 'hardcore' crowd likes to pretend that they're the only true PVPers confuses things occasionally, but it's just the 'harcores' being nutty.
Full loot, FFA PVP is not the same thing as PVP in general, "Get that through your fucking skull."
In the long run- the people who have a compulsive aversion to PvP are going to lose dominance. If you look at some of the most prevelant games across the ages- board games, card games- whatever- they are PvP games. This is what people want, have always wanted- to fuck with eachother, compete, and say ha ha I'm better than you- and it isn't going to change because it's electronic, virtual, or impersonal.
And if you look further at those games, you'll see that none of them include a 'take all of their stuff' mechanic; I can play chess or non-money card-games and keep playing win or lose, I don't have to go buy a new deck of cards after a loss and the winner doesn't get to take my chess pieces. In money-based card games like poker, there is no equivalent to the 'gank the guy mining and take his valuable ore, if I lose I'm only out disposable gear' which 'hardcore' PVPers so love, you can't win more money off of a person than you're willing to put into the ring, plus you're all aware that a game is being played, you don't suddenly spring a poker game on someone who was playing solitare.
And as far as beating up newbies all day goes, the organized form of most games tend to discourage beating up on newbies, in chess for example you can't raise your rank by winning against people with a far lower rank than you. Tournaments split people up so that competition is between people of roughly equal skill levels. Most people who are competent at chess seek out people who play at their level (or better), or find someone who's worse and teach them to be better, there's none of this 'camp the newbie town' stuff.
These games are nothing like FFA, full loot PVP. "Get that through your fucking skull.'
The extremes are competitive games and non-competitive games.
An example of a highly non-competitive game is a single player game an example of higly competitive game is a Massively Multiplayer Online, Free For All, Open Player Versus Player, Full Loot, Virtual World game.
The problem we are having nowadays is that single player video game fans are invading the MMOG market and as a result the MMOG games are being watered-down to accomodate them.
Originally posted by Brainy From what I see, the debate really isnt "Carebear" vs "PVP. The real debate is FFA PVP vs Concentual PVP.
I don't see that, the real key disagreement seems to be primarily on looting vs non-looting. The 'hardcores' cry 'carebear game' if a game doesn't have full loot (and say that that's the reason), and tend to call anyone who doesn't like looting a carebear (as I've seen over and over again). The way the 'hardcore' crowd uses the term, it really does mean 'doesn't like full-loot PVP', though they like to pretend that anyone who doesn't like gank-and-loot PVP fits a bunch of the other stuff they've listed here.
There's a simple reason that many believe in full loot:
It's believeable that if you kill someone, everything they are carrying should fall to the ground with their corpse and be able to be picked up by anyone. It makes sense and it also brings balance and relative risk into everything that players use or do.
Use the benefits of a super powered weapon in battle - risk losing the valuable super powered weapon.
Run around naked and risk nothing - will likely gain nothing as you are easily defeated.
It's called balance or risk versus reward, elements that are lost in most MMOGs today.
Originally posted by sempiternal An MMOG carebear is a player that does not want to risk or compete in anything, yet be given the sense of accomplishment. so a carebear would be someone whom likes questing and puzzle type games asnd if this is so whta kind of games would these not be?
I am rather a carebear than a person that post arrogant junk like this... And I would gladly face you all in a Counter Strike match. But then, that is real PvP, not stats with levels and lots of numbers that you play around with, and when they number are in your favor.. you look for someone you can kill with 100% certainty. Like you "oh so proud" PvPers like to call "Hardcore PvP".
FPS is real PvP because it is one persons real skills against another persons real skills. Anyhitng else is just a scared kid that need statistics to show him when its safe to attack.
And that.. is what a carebear think of you softies.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
Originally posted by Harafnir I am rather a carebear than a person that post arrogant junk like this... And I would gladly face you all in a Counter Strike match. But then, that is real PvP, not stats with levels and lots of numbers that you play around with, and when they number are in your favor.. you look for someone you can kill with 100% certainty. Like you "oh so proud" PvPers like to call "Hardcore PvP". FPS is real PvP because it is one persons real skills against another persons real skills. Anyhitng else is just a scared kid that need statistics to show him when its safe to attack.
And that.. is what a carebear think of you softies.
I really dont understand thisd whole care bear and non carebear wars all about, isnt there games for both types of these people, and if there is games for both sides of this idiotic fence,wont they please go play there desired games and shut the hell up already, lol.
It all comes back to competitive players and non-competitive players, regardless of what game it is.
A non-competitive player wants to do things on their own, a competitive player wants the challenge of competing with others.
Competing with others is the point of a game, if there is no competition then the activity is a passtime not a game.
Carebears get upset when they have to compete in a game and even more upset when they lose, they want everyone to win regardless of effort or skill.
PvP players enjoy competing with others and accept that either some or most of the time they will lose, but they keep striving to improve themselves and trying to win.
Harafnir is definately a carebear because he only likes competing in simple FPS games where there is very little to gain and very little to lose.
Originally posted by sempiternal It all comes back to competitive players and non-competitive players, regardless of what game it is. A non-competitive player wants to do things on their own, a competitive player wants the challenge of competing with others. Competing with others is the point of a game, if there is no competition then the activity is a passtime not a game. Carebears get upset when they have to compete in a game and even more upset when they lose, they want everyone to win regardless of effort or skill. PvP players enjoy competing with others and accept that either some or most of the time they will lose, but they keep striving to improve themselves and trying to win. well why would someone put themselves in a game that is not suited for them , just to complain about it? i still dont get the war going on here, it reminds me of a race war, yall seem to be fighting cause yer different, I have a very simple salution, go play a game that suits yer playstyle , and tolerate eachother in the forumns, and stop this nonsense.
Originally posted by boognish75 well why would someone put themselves in a game that is not suited for them , just to complain about it? i still dont get the war going on here, it reminds me of a race war, yall seem to be fighting cause yer different, I have a very simple salution, go play a game that suits yer playstyle , and tolerate eachother in the forumns, and stop this nonsense.
Well, the problem with that is both sides of this argument want to be able to play the next great game out there. The competative people & non competative people both want a great gaming experience & the ability to try out the next great game. Lets look at Warhammer for a minute. This is a game, by definition, that will cater to the "hardcore pvp" crowd, but I guarantee that there will be "carebears" or people that are not looking for any type of competition, just a new game to play. These "carebears" are the people that will bitch and moan about getting killed, yet still play the game.
I totally agree with you, these types of players should stay out of games that are not catered toward them, but as the history of MMO games has proven, this simply will not happen.
One personal observation I have made over the last 14+ years of playing MMO games is that most people, after purchasing a new MMO game, will find something that they feel is too hard. There is a certain type of person, though, that once they find the thing that they feel is too hard they will go on a holy crusade to get it changed & not rest until it is. Then, it is that same type of person that will complain that the game is too boring and easy & that they're "announcing" that they are quitting on the official forums, as if anyone cares.
That, imo, is a carebear.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Originally posted by sempiternal Who's fighting? I am just trying to define what a carebear is. After all, that is the topic of the discussion.
lol no your not 'fighting', but youre describing a playstyle and a type of player in such a 'superior' and disdainful manner that it is bound to annoy people.
Maybe try explaining yourself and your standpoint without the 'elitist' attitude?
Both styles are equally as valid, neither are wrong or the 'right way' to play an MMO, try to remember that.
Originally posted by sempiternal Use the benefits of a super powered weapon in battle - risk losing the valuable super powered weapon. Run around naked and risk nothing - will likely gain nothing as you are easily defeated. It's called balance or risk versus reward, elements that are lost in most MMOGs today.
So how exactly does this alleged risk vs reward factor in if you go off mining or clearing a dungeon or other PVE pursuit, come home carrying your loot, and get ambushed by a guy in easily replaceable gear? Or get jumped by 5 guys from ambush specifically set up for the kind of ambush they're doing (like EVE gate camps)? Or get jumped by 10 guys when there are 5 of you because they just look around for smaller groups and run if they see bigger ones? Or what if you're a newbie trying to get your first set of gear and keep getting killed every time you res by some guy camping the newbie area?
'Risk vs reward' is something that the 'hardcore' crowd says to sound sophisticated, but I've yet to hear an adequate explanation of how that term can really apply to any full-loot game. The actual gameplay ends up being 'risk little for big rewards', like the situations I listed above, and not 'you have to risk big to win big' like the expression would normally mean. As far as I can tell, saying 'risk vs reward' really just means 'I want to be able to gank people and take their stuff, but I have a fancy way of saying it'.
Comments
4 pages of idiocy, the hardcore's don't wanna give up, mediators have tried to douse the flames, but to no avail.
Now, you UO argument, I've been told by 80%, yes 80 PERCENT of the Internet community that the ganking and general stupidity in that game got so high that a gigantic exodus happened (and an exodus is a very large migration of sorts) and UO lost a massive amount of players, all because you people lost your main targets, people who could not possibly fight back.
You inherently set off a chain reaction that dooms a game. A new player enters a game, he knows there's PvP and he hopes to one day be strong enough to participate, there are other aspects of this game he likes, but after 2 weeks of difficult leveling, learning, and exploration he's now level 25 and progressing well, but he doesn't have enough money to store his items in a bank. But here comes Mr. Level 80 with his Tier 10 uber armor gained from 5 months of constant play. With a few swift strokes the newbie falls and boom, the bastard dances on his corps and takes his items, if only to piss him off.
And so, crushed, he tries again, only to suffer the fate again, he leaves, telling people the game has a horrid community, game goes under.
Don't insult people because of their play styles, because it reveals your over bloated ego and how desperate for targets you really are.
I think it's the objective of your past self to make you cringe.
Wrong on a couple points there bud.
You are confusing hard core old school pvper with FPS game player.
UO was the start of real true graphical pvp. In that game you gained levels (betters said, you leveld up your skills and stats) and yeah you h ad to have some skill but you also had to have the levels. Level without skill got you killed and skill without levels did the same.
If you want a jump around like a retard while shooting a bazooka that can 1 shot people and emoting /omgwtfijustpwned you while having an headshot cheat active, then you are not a hard core pvper. You are just a poser and someone who does not know what mmorpg pvpers are about.
the phrase "hardcore" has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. It's PvP'ers vs Non PvP'ers. It's black and fucking white.
In the long run- the people who have a compulsive aversion to PvP are going to lose dominance. If you look at some of the most prevelant games across the ages- board games, card games- whatever- they are PvP games. This is what people want, have always wanted- to fuck with eachother, compete, and say ha ha I'm better than you- and it isn't going to change because it's electronic, virtual, or impersonal.
Get that through your fucking skull.
The MMO market as we know it represents a size of the population that amounts to a fly's dick on a horses ass. It doesn't take a god damn genius to see where MMO is headed when the market expands from online gaming becoming easily accessible...
i.e. Console gamers getting ever increasing access to online gaming; and cross-platform online gaming; cheaper computers that are more powerful, faster and more affordable internet access- blah blah fucking blah.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
be a bigger man and live n let live.
utterly childish people here can be. I wish this carebear crap would
die. Are people so insecure they really need to label other mmorpg fans
carebear so they can feel better about themselves? Let's just make
informative labels for mmorpg enthusiasts. 1: People who enjoy the
challenge PVP creates. 2: Pathetic people that enjoy being mean to
other people and getting away with it. (this gives the previous group a
bad name) 3: People who simply don't like pvp 4: People who don't like
being griefed by group 2.
the phrase "hardcore" has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. It's PvP'ers vs Non PvP'ers. It's black and fucking white.
In the long run- the people who have a compulsive aversion to PvP are going to lose dominance. If you look at some of the most prevelant games across the ages- board games, card games- whatever- they are PvP games. This is what people want, have always wanted- to fuck with eachother, compete, and say ha ha I'm better than you- and it isn't going to change because it's electronic, virtual, or impersonal.
Get that through your fucking skull.
The MMO market as we know it represents a size of the population that amounts to a fly's dick on a horses ass. It doesn't take a god damn genius to see where MMO is headed when the market expands from online gaming becoming easily accessible...
i.e. Console gamers getting ever increasing access to online gaming; and cross-platform online gaming; cheaper computers that are more powerful, faster and more affordable internet access- blah blah fucking blah.
This can be pretty easily argued. The most popular games are competitive, not people ganking, griefing or killing each other. Cards, for most people are competitive, not about grief.
And take a look at the number of people that play professionally and the number that do not. There are far far fewer people that really really play as pvp but tons that play as competition. Competition is not just pvp, that is just one aspect
I do agree that pvp will get bigger but there will always be rules, FFA PVP will not get much bigger. I still think the funnest pvp type game I ever played was that James Bond game golden eye. However one reason it was fun was because I really did not lose any time invested. But it was thrilling to skulk around and no someone else was hunting me. If I had to train him up for 6 months, I would not be as willing to risk him.
Venge Sunsoar
the phrase "hardcore" has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing. It's PvP'ers vs Non PvP'ers. It's black and fucking white.
In the long run- the people who have a compulsive aversion to PvP are going to lose dominance. If you look at some of the most prevelant games across the ages- board games, card games- whatever- they are PvP games. This is what people want, have always wanted- to fuck with eachother, compete, and say ha ha I'm better than you- and it isn't going to change because it's electronic, virtual, or impersonal.
Get that through your fucking skull.
The MMO market as we know it represents a size of the population that amounts to a fly's dick on a horses ass. It doesn't take a god damn genius to see where MMO is headed when the market expands from online gaming becoming easily accessible...
i.e. Console gamers getting ever increasing access to online gaming; and cross-platform online gaming; cheaper computers that are more powerful, faster and more affordable internet access- blah blah fucking blah.
1st... Fuck is not an adjective...no reason to punctuate your post with it for emphasis..not if you want to be taken seroiusly.
2nd... You're wrong. Most people dislike unrestricted, FFA PvP. They almost always want safe zones, protections for new players, protection from high level ganking etc. Almost any game or server that has tried unrestricted PvP has gone down in flames. EvE is a notable exception, but I'd argue that accumulating wealth is somewhat easy there (from what other players have posted, not my personal experience) so there's no real loss when you get ganked coming out of a portal
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Most of these are close to my definition of an MMOG carebear. But, I would like to point out that a carebear is not someone who doesn't like to lose, because nobody likes to lose, but rather, a carebear is someone who can't handle losing.
And, interestingly enough, every description you gave deals with losing in some way:
So in summary, a carebear is simply defined as a non-competitve MMOG player that cannot handle losing.
No, though most people who use the term 'carebear' are dumb enough to think that. It's the 'hardcore' PVPers, who want games with no safe zones, no protection against ganking, and full-loot on death vs everyone else - including PVPers like me who have no interest in full-loot setups or in games where ganking newbies is easy. The fact that the 'hardcore' crowd likes to pretend that they're the only true PVPers confuses things occasionally, but it's just the 'harcores' being nutty.
Full loot, FFA PVP is not the same thing as PVP in general, "Get that through your fucking skull."
And if you look further at those games, you'll see that none of them include a 'take all of their stuff' mechanic; I can play chess or non-money card-games and keep playing win or lose, I don't have to go buy a new deck of cards after a loss and the winner doesn't get to take my chess pieces. In money-based card games like poker, there is no equivalent to the 'gank the guy mining and take his valuable ore, if I lose I'm only out disposable gear' which 'hardcore' PVPers so love, you can't win more money off of a person than you're willing to put into the ring, plus you're all aware that a game is being played, you don't suddenly spring a poker game on someone who was playing solitare.
And as far as beating up newbies all day goes, the organized form of most games tend to discourage beating up on newbies, in chess for example you can't raise your rank by winning against people with a far lower rank than you. Tournaments split people up so that competition is between people of roughly equal skill levels. Most people who are competent at chess seek out people who play at their level (or better), or find someone who's worse and teach them to be better, there's none of this 'camp the newbie town' stuff.
These games are nothing like FFA, full loot PVP. "Get that through your fucking skull.'
The extremes are competitive games and non-competitive games.
An example of a highly non-competitive game is a single player game an example of higly competitive game is a Massively Multiplayer Online, Free For All, Open Player Versus Player, Full Loot, Virtual World game.
The problem we are having nowadays is that single player video game fans are invading the MMOG market and as a result the MMOG games are being watered-down to accomodate them.
From what I see, the debate really isnt "Carebear" vs "PVP.
The real debate is FFA PVP vs Concentual PVP.
FFA PVP/Loot
Concentual PVP
I am sure we can keep adding to this list.
I don't see that, the real key disagreement seems to be primarily on looting vs non-looting. The 'hardcores' cry 'carebear game' if a game doesn't have full loot (and say that that's the reason), and tend to call anyone who doesn't like looting a carebear (as I've seen over and over again). The way the 'hardcore' crowd uses the term, it really does mean 'doesn't like full-loot PVP', though they like to pretend that anyone who doesn't like gank-and-loot PVP fits a bunch of the other stuff they've listed here.
There's a simple reason that many believe in full loot:
It's believeable that if you kill someone, everything they are carrying should fall to the ground with their corpse and be able to be picked up by anyone. It makes sense and it also brings balance and relative risk into everything that players use or do.
Use the benefits of a super powered weapon in battle - risk losing the valuable super powered weapon.
Run around naked and risk nothing - will likely gain nothing as you are easily defeated.
It's called balance or risk versus reward, elements that are lost in most MMOGs today.
playing eq2 and two worlds
I am rather a carebear than a person that post arrogant junk like this... And I would gladly face you all in a Counter Strike match. But then, that is real PvP, not stats with levels and lots of numbers that you play around with, and when they number are in your favor.. you look for someone you can kill with 100% certainty. Like you "oh so proud" PvPers like to call "Hardcore PvP".
FPS is real PvP because it is one persons real skills against another persons real skills. Anyhitng else is just a scared kid that need statistics to show him when its safe to attack.
And that.. is what a carebear think of you softies.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
playing eq2 and two worlds
It all comes back to competitive players and non-competitive players, regardless of what game it is.
A non-competitive player wants to do things on their own, a competitive player wants the challenge of competing with others.
Competing with others is the point of a game, if there is no competition then the activity is a passtime not a game.
Carebears get upset when they have to compete in a game and even more upset when they lose, they want everyone to win regardless of effort or skill.
PvP players enjoy competing with others and accept that either some or most of the time they will lose, but they keep striving to improve themselves and trying to win.
Harafnir is definately a carebear because he only likes competing in simple FPS games where there is very little to gain and very little to lose.
playing eq2 and two worlds
Well, the problem with that is both sides of this argument want to be able to play the next great game out there. The competative people & non competative people both want a great gaming experience & the ability to try out the next great game.
Lets look at Warhammer for a minute. This is a game, by definition, that will cater to the "hardcore pvp" crowd, but I guarantee that there will be "carebears" or people that are not looking for any type of competition, just a new game to play. These "carebears" are the people that will bitch and moan about getting killed, yet still play the game.
I totally agree with you, these types of players should stay out of games that are not catered toward them, but as the history of MMO games has proven, this simply will not happen.
One personal observation I have made over the last 14+ years of playing MMO games is that most people, after purchasing a new MMO game, will find something that they feel is too hard. There is a certain type of person, though, that once they find the thing that they feel is too hard they will go on a holy crusade to get it changed & not rest until it is. Then, it is that same type of person that will complain that the game is too boring and easy
& that they're "announcing" that they are quitting on the official forums, as if anyone cares.
That, imo, is a carebear.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Maybe try explaining yourself and your standpoint without the 'elitist' attitude?
Both styles are equally as valid, neither are wrong or the 'right way' to play an MMO, try to remember that.
So how exactly does this alleged risk vs reward factor in if you go off mining or clearing a dungeon or other PVE pursuit, come home carrying your loot, and get ambushed by a guy in easily replaceable gear? Or get jumped by 5 guys from ambush specifically set up for the kind of ambush they're doing (like EVE gate camps)? Or get jumped by 10 guys when there are 5 of you because they just look around for smaller groups and run if they see bigger ones? Or what if you're a newbie trying to get your first set of gear and keep getting killed every time you res by some guy camping the newbie area?
'Risk vs reward' is something that the 'hardcore' crowd says to sound sophisticated, but I've yet to hear an adequate explanation of how that term can really apply to any full-loot game. The actual gameplay ends up being 'risk little for big rewards', like the situations I listed above, and not 'you have to risk big to win big' like the expression would normally mean. As far as I can tell, saying 'risk vs reward' really just means 'I want to be able to gank people and take their stuff, but I have a fancy way of saying it'.