On the off chance you are, I'll answer it point by point:
They hate having to compete with other players. - There are many games out there that require ALOT more competition between players than WoW. Eve Online, for instance, with huge battles fought by hundreds of players over star systems. Lineage 2 with it's castle sieges. DAoC and Shadowbane both rewarded player competition as well. One can hate WoW and still like competition. Infact one of the points thats been made constantly in this thread is that the reason alot of the folks around here don't like WoW is because there isn't enough competition for them.
They hate playing for more than 30 minutes. - I'm not even sure how to answer this besides to say it is wrong. I hate WoW for multiple reasons (both gameplay and real life stuff) but I used to sit and play Asheron's Call for hours upon hours. I played EQ1 a couple of hours a day (and understandably didn't get very far :P). I used to play GW about 5 hours a day. And yet both times I've tried to get into WoW after about an hour I'd just get bored and log off. Hell, tonight I played Quake 4 singleplayer for 3 hours. And yet I dislike WoW.
They keep saying the current game they are playing is better than WoW even though their game has less than 90k players. - As mentioned many, many times in multiple WoW hating threads, just because alot of people play the game it doesn't mean the game is perfect, or even good. Now, it doesn't mean it's necessarily horrible either, but it doesn't de facto make it good.
They only made it to level 20 to 40 when playing WoW and think they know the game inside and out. - I think thats the only sane point you made, honestly. That's entirely true. However, when slogging through level after level of the exact same thing it seems pretty reasonable that the entire rest of the game will be the exact same thing.
They have bad taste in MMORPGs. (The current game they are playing has less quality and options than WoW.) - Taste is entirely subjective. There are some people who won't drink wine that doesn't cost at least $50 a bottle and comes from France, and there are some people who are quite happy drinking boxed wine (though even the quality of some boxed wine is pretty good these days from what I hear). With this statement you basically declare that anybody who doesn't like WoW must have bad taste. That, sir, is a false statement. My roommate loves Blink 182 and other pop-punk bands, whereas I prefer jazz and trip-hop. Does that mean he must have bad taste because he doesn't like my music? No, it just means his tastes are different.
They got killed in PvP a lot. - This is just you making an assumption. And you know what they say about people that make those. PvP varies so much from game to game that to make any assumptions about one's performance in one game's PvP would be rather rash. For instance, I'm considered to be a fairly good PvP'er in Guild Wars, and held my own against all but the twinks in WoW, but I get knocked around left and right in Eve.
They keep claiming the children were the downfall of WoW's community when children make up the majority of players in the MMORPG market. - Oh lord, where to begin. I guess I'll just state that you proved yourself false with this statement. If people believe that children are the downfall of the WoW community, and WoW is most of the MMO market, that would mean that would mean statistically that WoW has a heck of alot of kids in it. In fact, probably more kids than the entire population of some games.
Consider every player playing the game un-intelligent or ignorant. - Not all of them are, but it has already been stated that for alot of people who play it, WoW is their first MMO. So while they may be very intellegent, they would be ignorant of what the rest of the MMO world has to offer.
They keep saying WoW is only going to last one more year. - This hasn't been said once in this entire thread and I haven't seen it in any of the forums I frequent. I won't claim to have read every thread here (I actually only come to this site rarely) but it doesn't seem to be a prediction that's pushed often.
You are either a troll or a fundie. I haven't decided which yet.
Some gamers wake up in the morning with a single thought mulling about in their minds, in fact it probably prompted dreams as they slept, 'How will I beat/get ahead in this game?'. But some, like myself, take that a step further, 'How can I make a game that makes people do that?'.
This launches you into an inevitable maelstrom of information and research and all night game-playing benders. You bounce form game to game trying to see whats been done and what people want and trying to mesh this with your own ideas and your own ouotlook. Trying to form an idea for a game, based on what you know now, that will at the very least pay for itself. And to pay for itself, you have to appeal to gamers, which can limit your vision, changing the game you intended to make.
In Blizzards case we're actually going to have to go back into a bit of history. Back in 199*, I don't care what year it was so don't quote it to me, they made an RTS that was basically a knock off of the popular RPG Warhammer. They did a few interesting things, but nothing new or innovative, just a collection of what had come before, shined and spit polished, if you doubt this a quick visit to [That site with underdog abandonware which shall remain nameless] and their RTS section more specifically should clear up which came first.
It worked, the game was a runaway succes spawning 3 sequels and a couple expansion pack. They then made Diablo, same story, same success. So they thought to test their hand at the MMO game. Their cheif competition was raking in a massive player base of 500k so they probably assumed that was probably their upward cap. They release, same story rinsed and repeated, nothing new, ssdd, better polish, better interface, imho, and a little more hand holding. They soon exceed their expected sales by ohhhhh.... 3 million, and scramble madly to catch up to ta player base some 6 times larger than anticipated and growing. They quickly add content based on their original model and rush to get a team working on a expansion pack. The company gets bleeding rich and hardcore gamers get pissed. Nice bed time story.
You see, WoW, when taken in the context of being designed for a playerbse of millions seems a little, scratch that, alot dissappointing. When designed for a player base of a couple hundered thousand it looks more like a perfect fit. So you see, many times what you are complaining about is not a design flaw, per say, merely a design that was intended for a different use.
Of course there is the second fold of the arguement, the artist's arguement, so to speak. By merely grabbing pre-existing features and rebundling them with more spit polish than you can shake a stick at what they did is not, by some, considered art. But this hearkens back to the arguement of who IS the better artist, Michealangelo or Leonardo DeVinci. Michealangelo is considered one of the greatest masters of all time, but not for inventing an artform, or inventing much of anything actually, but for depicting what others had already been trying to depict in a manner some might describe as perfect. DeVinci invented quite a few things, weapons, contraptions, and a style of drawing that he used ot determine how he would shade a painting in one small portion of it, that we use to this day as a proper style of art. So everything comes back to which you prefer most, the polish or the innovation.
I'm trying not to add too much of my own spin to the provable, since I belieive WoW is what it is and my comments won't change it and shouldn't, BUT it IS a huge financial success. When your facing some hard to swallow development budgets it can be VERY VERY tempting to go with something that already works rather than put it out on the line and hope the hardcore gamers will stop whining long enough to appreciate and support your creativity. In this way WoW can be very destructive to what hard core gamers are looking for.
It's quite simple really. Go to a music forum and say you like Justin Timberlake, they will make fun of you even if he's extremely popular. Or why not try a movie forum and say the best movie of all time is jurassic park..
People like simple things, like WoW, Justin Timberlake and jurassic park.
the problem is people are way too polarized here so much so that there will be potshots from each corner. I think most people can probably agree WoW is a good game, just not everyone's cup of tea and that there are many aspects which perhaps were done better in other mmorpgs. That is no criticism of WoW, as WoW in-turn has done things better than other mmorpgs especially in the form of more casuality.
I'm glad that a MMORPG had such a success. It will probably help developers convince investors to finance their next generation MMORPGs. Plus, in order for the new MMORPG to be successful, they need to put some added value to the equation. They need to perform as good as the current games but also add more to the equation. There is no reason for somebody to abandon his/her current MMORPG unless the next in line has something more to deliver.
I do not share the fear of the people that think that WOW's success will hold the gender back. If nothing else, it proved that the gender has a big appeal and it's worth investing in it.
I also don't think that a new MMORPG needs to be completely different than what is currently in the market, or what was available in the past. If nothing else, it will be wise to follow an evolutionary course. Maybe some people would prefer revolutionary gameplay and some developers may be willing to gamble, but I fear that their efforts will be fruitless (good ideas don't necessarily make good implementations).
The most anticipated games in the main page of this side are evolutions of past games. Which is hardly a bad thing, as long as it's fun to play.
Originally posted by jimmyman99 Originally posted by KaptainZerg
Originally posted by Deathstrike2 ...Now here's the strange thing....WoW has over 8 million players and it's apparently growing. That is a boat load of people. So what's the deal? Do these people not post on forums in support of the game...
Idiots can't read well. Don't be a gamist ( game prejudice or discrimination based on someones gaming preferences ).
Don't be a...don't be...what! lol. If games were racial or ethnic groups of people your term gameist might make some sense. But they aren't, and the reasons why are obvious. My opinion is not a charity organization or a civil right movement, either. I do discriminate based on my "gaming preferences". This is why what I have to say on a subject is valuable even if it pisses you off.
Guys, I'm just not seeing it. Okay, so if the number is 2 million in NA, that's still 2 MILLION players. Still much much more than its competition. Another thing I see is like the post above that says it's dumbed down for kids, and 10 year olds play the game. I'm sure there are 10 year olds playing, but you know what? I'm sure that there's even more adults. In the six months that I played, I met and teamed with hundreds of people who all spoke well, and were fairly educated. They were not ten year olds. The game may be simplified, but judging by the numbers, that's what the vast majority of players seem to want. You can't argue with success. After seeing how divided the Vanguard community is, I hardly think the game will even be a blip on Blizzard's radar. I'm hoping that Conan will be good, and I plan on giving it a try. However, I have yet to see anything substantial coming from any new game that would lead me to believe that it will hurt WoW. In reality, it's probably the other way around. People leave WoW, try other games and find that WoW is simply better. With subscription rates on the rise, it's WoW that is putting the hurt on all these little MMOs. Don't believe me? Consider how much more populated other MMOs would be right now if there were no WoW to complete with.
You are completely wrong. Other MMO's "are" more populated because WoW exist. Because WoW brought a brand new crowd to the MMO market. Most people playing WoW had never been playing an MMO before. Most vets leave WoW, which leaves WoW with it's fan base, which is huge enough to support them for a very long time.
Now, the fact that it brought millions of new people to the genre is actually good for every other good mmo. I know a lot of people who didn't play any mmo before WoW, who got bored of WoW and went to play EvE or Dark age of camelot. Those people would had "never" heard of game like EvE or Daoc if it wasn't to being introduced at the MMO market by Blizzard WoW.
So all and all, people with gaming culture soon realize soon or later that there "are" MMO"s better then WoW currently on the market right now. They just have to stick their head out of their ass and make the jump. It will be even more easier when War Hammer comes out: With all the good pve feature, plus the great RvR (pvp) and a robust crafting sytem.
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
On the off chance you are, I'll answer it point by point:
They hate having to compete with other players. - There are many games out there that require ALOT more competition between players than WoW. Eve Online, for instance, with huge battles fought by hundreds of players over star systems. Lineage 2 with it's castle sieges. DAoC and Shadowbane both rewarded player competition as well. One can hate WoW and still like competition. Infact one of the points thats been made constantly in this thread is that the reason alot of the folks around here don't like WoW is because there isn't enough competition for them.
I'm not talking about WoW ability to give you a challenge. Simply put, they don't like feeling as if they have to prove themselves to anyone. That's what I'm talking about. The reason today's games are so simple is because they are catered to this crowd. If you remove this crowd from the MMORPG market, games would be more challenging.
They hate playing for more than 30 minutes. - I'm not even sure how to answer this besides to say it is wrong. I hate WoW for multiple reasons (both gameplay and real life stuff) but I used to sit and play Asheron's Call for hours upon hours. I played EQ1 a couple of hours a day (and understandably didn't get very far :P). I used to play GW about 5 hours a day. And yet both times I've tried to get into WoW after about an hour I'd just get bored and log off. Hell, tonight I played Quake 4 singleplayer for 3 hours. And yet I dislike WoW.
Actually, the biggest fact as to why people hate this game, which has been mention in WoW and many MMORPG forums (whom compare WoW to their games) that players wish the game could be more causal because the game is more for hardcore players. You can't expect to be level 15 in 30 minutes and that's what a lot of causal players expect when playing this game. And because these players can't keep up, they end up being left in the wind with nobody to play with. Soon they become disinterested and they most likely leave WoW. Not only have I read those post, but I got disinterested in the beginning too when I played the game. But then I reminded myself why I bought this game and put more effort into playing it.
They keep saying the current game they are playing is better than WoW even though their game has less than 90k players. - As mentioned many, many times in multiple WoW hating threads, just because alot of people play the game it doesn't mean the game is perfect, or even good. Now, it doesn't mean it's necessarily horrible either, but it doesn't de facto make it good.
Yes, your opinion supersides that of the 8 million people currently playing the game. You're god and you have the final say so.
They only made it to level 20 to 40 when playing WoW and think they know the game inside and out. - I think thats the only sane point you made, honestly. That's entirely true. However, when slogging through level after level of the exact same thing it seems pretty reasonable that the entire rest of the game will be the exact same thing.
So you haven't been through the game, apparently. I've been through the game to level 60 and it's quite different.
They have bad taste in MMORPGs. (The current game they are playing has less quality and options than WoW.) - Taste is entirely subjective. There are some people who won't drink wine that doesn't cost at least $50 a bottle and comes from France, and there are some people who are quite happy drinking boxed wine (though even the quality of some boxed wine is pretty good these days from what I hear). With this statement you basically declare that anybody who doesn't like WoW must have bad taste. That, sir, is a false statement. My roommate loves Blink 182 and other pop-punk bands, whereas I prefer jazz and trip-hop. Does that mean he must have bad taste because he doesn't like my music? No, it just means his tastes are different.
Some fans like DDO and DDO isn't a really good game. Same goes with Vanguard. Yet all these people will exaggarate and tell you those games are better than WoW.
They got killed in PvP a lot. - This is just you making an assumption. And you know what they say about people that make those. PvP varies so much from game to game that to make any assumptions about one's performance in one game's PvP would be rather rash. For instance, I'm considered to be a fairly good PvP'er in Guild Wars, and held my own against all but the twinks in WoW, but I get knocked around left and right in Eve.
This isn't making assumption, I've played WoW and read the WoW forums, here and on their website. Many people do stop playing for reason of PvP matters.
They keep claiming the children were the downfall of WoW's community when children make up the majority of players in the MMORPG market. - Oh lord, where to begin. I guess I'll just state that you proved yourself false with this statement. If people believe that children are the downfall of the WoW community, and WoW is most of the MMO market, that would mean that would mean statistically that WoW has a heck of alot of kids in it. In fact, probably more kids than the entire population of some games.
Actually, people HAVE said this on the WoW forums HERE and in other forums. There's nothing false here, you just wish it weren't true.
Consider every player playing the game un-intelligent or ignorant. - Not all of them are, but it has already been stated that for alot of people who play it, WoW is their first MMO. So while they may be very intellegent, they would be ignorant of what the rest of the MMO world has to offer.
No, and I've had more experience in this than you. People from other forums or in the WoW forum call other people ignorant or indicate they are un-intelligent for playing WoW. For christsakes, you just sat and did the same thing when you said because 8 million people like the game doesn't means it's good. You are basically saying everyone who doesn't see WoW as you do is ignorant. (Even if you didn't say it outloud) I've played game before WoW I believe WoW is better than most games and has raise the bar for MMORPGs.
They keep saying WoW is only going to last one more year. - This hasn't been said once in this entire thread and I haven't seen it in any of the forums I frequent. I won't claim to have read every thread here (I actually only come to this site rarely) but it doesn't seem to be a prediction that's pushed often.
It's been said on this board, WoW forums and MMORPG forum. They especially believe this whenever a new game is coming out.
You are either a troll or a fundie. I haven't decided which yet.
Dude, get over yourself, you don't have clue of what you are talking about and you believe your opinion matter over other people. I think you maybe more of what you describe than myself. If none of this stuff applies to you, why are you getting mad or in a uproar?
Most (not all) of the people who talk bad about WoW are very anti-social. They hate putting up with other people and they only come up with excuse as to why they hate the game. Like I said, not all the people. Some people don't like the game for various reason in terms of quality, but you can identify those who hate the game for the fact they didn't want to put any effort forth in playing the game or try to be social. In otherwords, they want the game to revolve around them (or an exclusive group) and a not a general crowd.
Now that we have broken down the argument to pieces, its clear to understand where the issue is. For you, there has to be some kind of reward for the win, and some kind of penalty for loss. As you said with the poker example, ud rather bet real money on a chance to win/lose, rather then play for fun/fake money. rohbshop however does not. I dont either. Id rather be on a safe side and not gamble becuase a LOT of things in poker depend on chance, and I HATE betting on chance. I like to bet on my skill, my intelligence, my stamina, or anything that depend purely on something influenced by me, not by random chance. Thats the core difference between these 2 types of PvPers.
PVP isn't poker though. The PVP mechanics still stay the same, i am not suggesting they take away the skill side of things, infact, quite the opposite. It's just the reward/risk aspect that was relevant in the anology and the THRILL and EXCITEMENT of knowing there is something of value to risk should I die. So you argument here is mute.
There are different styles of PvP, there is not one PvP. The fact that you like one way to PvP (risk/reward is great) and others like myself like different PvP (no risk/reward) only proves that. Im not sure what your trying to say here though. I agree that WoW PvP is not the type of PvP you like, so what are you trying to say?
Theres nothing wrong with either one, its up for a taste. But, if a game was designed for one type, it cannot be for the other. So if WoW was designed for the type of people who do not like to risk their daily earnings and their left nut, then why complain? Thats one thing I dont understand, if a game was designed to be one thing, why expect a completely different thing and then complain about it? Its often a good idea to disscuss something in particular to find a way to improve things, but a complete overhaul of a combat system? That would be SWG all over again. Ill try to give an example.
Which is what i said - neither is write or wrong, different playstyle different wants. And i am merely saying why i disliked WOW - i am not on the WOW forums nor am i emailing the dev's trying to change the game. I am simply discussing MMORPG's on a community forum, it's that simple.
I think the OP was speaking in general to those who bash WoW. I dont consider your posts as bashing. Inteeligent discussions like these are healthy for the development of current and future products. Bashing posts are those where people drop a 1-liner bomb like "WoW sux, its for noobz/kids".
The reason there are so many WoW hater threads here and everywhere else is simple and not unique to MMORPGs.
It is human nature to hate the big guy, and people love to love the underdog.
If WoW was exactly the same, but only had 10k Subscriptions, people wouldn't care about it or would love it because it would be an underdog.
No matter how good or bad WoW is, there will be negative posts toward it, and people defending it.
People hated EQ when it was on top, and Now all I see or hear in reference to EQ is how great it was back in the day.
When something comes along and becomes king of the mountain, you may start to see "The Good old days of WoW" posts become more common.
The simple truth to WoW's success is found in the fact that, love or hate, people are comparing their game to WoW.
You don't see people comparing how good or bad game X is compared to say Starwars Galaxies, Anarchy Online, FFXII, Etc..
A great many people hate Microsoft for much the same reason. As soon as another OS becomes the most popular it too will soon be just as hated.
I remember people around me LOVING Blair Witch up and down until it became mainstream, and then hating it. Same with Titanic, ET, Etc... Same thing, different topic.
As I was sitting here reading a few posts, it occured to me that WoW Bashing is rampant here. It's hard to get through a thread without someone making some comparison to WoW and then explaining why their MMO is better. Of course there's a fair amount of posts also that just say WoW sucks. I've also noticed that these threads are not confined to just MMORPG.com. They're everywhere. Now here's the strange thing....WoW has over 8 million players and it's apparently growing. That is a boat load of people. So what's the deal? Do these people not post on forums in support of the game, do they just ignore the WoW bashing, or are they bashing the game themselves while they're subscribed? I just don't understand why 99% of the WoW posts are negative towards the game, but the game itself continues to thrive and grow. My guess is that it's a bad case of MMO-envy on the basher's parts. They wish their game was as successful as WoW. Of course, that's just a guess. Anywho, just for clarification, I don't play the game myself. I tried it for about six months, and had a lot of fun during that time. However, I decided to move on and see what else is out there. I have yet to find a game that is as easy to get into and fun to play at the same time.
WoW has mainly first time players, and is very succesfull with them. In the forums you are most of the time reading posts from veteran mmorpg players. They just know how a mmorpg can be and with that have a much higher standard. Its easier to please first timers.
Thats actualy a very logical thought. Considering most vets went through hardcore school (UO, EQ1, etc), they are used to the old-school MMORPGs. Now here comes a newcomer and the gamestyle differs considerably from the old games. Sometimes its hard to adjust for veterans to something that seems so simple and easy compared to hardcore MMOs they used to play. So they rush through the content, end up grinding hi-end dungeons or PvP points and get frustrated for obvious reasons.
...Now here's the strange thing....WoW has over 8 million players and it's apparently growing. That is a boat load of people. So what's the deal? Do these people not post on forums in support of the game...
Idiots can't read well.
Don't be a gamist ( game prejudice or discrimination based on someones gaming preferences ).
Don't be a...don't be...what! lol. If games were racial or ethnic groups of people your term gameist might make some sense. But they aren't, and the reasons why are obvious. My opinion is not a charity organization or a civil right movement, either. I do discriminate based on my "gaming preferences". This is why what I have to say on a subject is valuable even if it pisses you off.
It doesnt piss me off, its just a gross over-generalization and stereotyping to call a group of people that play a specific game idiots.
Sooo... wait. If that's what you meant, why didn't you say it that way?
What did you think I meant by compete? You came up with your own assumptions about that paragraph. The problem doesn't lie with me, but with you.
Again, one of the biggest complaints in this thread about WoW is how easy it is.
Actually, no, and if you bother to read other people's opinions on other boards, people hate compete meaning they hate investing time to keep up with other players. BTW, Warriors have a hard time soloing and pvp. The game is far from easy.
Did you actually even read that paragraph?
Yes, and you haven't read other people's opinion and people who disagree with you are deem either a troll or fundie. So apparently, you see that anything that disagrees with your opinions is either false or those people are ignorant.
But like I said, when one goes through 40 levels of the game...
If you haven't been to end game and haven't participated in the raids, you have no right to say how the game is at end game. At this point you're talking out of your ass and misinforming people of the gameplay. So don't call me a troll when you haven't even finish the ame.
It caters more to what they want from a game, so for them it is a better game, because it fills their needs better. Thats why I said taste is subjective. Here is a link so you can learn what that means.
By this dumb analogy no MMORPG is good because everyone's opinion is subjective. It's another way of saying I can't come up with a counter argument so I'll eliminate the factors that limit me. I hate it when people try to use the "subjective thinking" argument to null out opinions that outnumber their own. By your analogy, you've also made WoW immune to any criticism you've made. When you apply an analogy to one thing, you have to apply to everything.
Then you need to specify...
They leave because they get ganked, run into a twinked player, their character/class is (tweaked) or nerfed, they get few points because they didn't directly kill something or they lack skill and often find themselves getting killed a lot. I will say it again, you NEED TO READ THE MMORPG FORUMS and WOW forums. Just because you are oblivious or in denial of these posts DOESN'T MAKE UNTRUE in any sense.
Ok, lets say 70% of players that play MMO's are 13-21 range. If WoW has a majority share of the MMO market, it seems reasonable to assume that a good chunk of that 70% plays WoW. Just because you've seen a couple of adults pick up BC at Gamestop doesn't mean all WoW players are adults :P
This analogy has no bearing since it's a big assumption with no correlation. The arguments made by the people arguing are based on the fact that kids make up the majority of WoW and they believe the game is bad because they THINK kids either bring immaturity to the community, the game is catering to kids or the kids are too imcompentent to play this game ruining their experience. Reality is it's neither of those points and it's more of the fact they want the game to be exclusive to them.
What I said, if you had finished that sentence before frothing at the mouth, was that it doesn't necessarily make it good, but it doesn't necessarily make it bad either. You're worse than a Fox News reporter when it comes to taking quotes out of context. I'm saying alot of WoW players are ignorant because they haven't tried any MMO's other than WoW, not because they like WoW.
You my friend have describe yourself because Fox News twists the truth. They make something that really good for you seem bad. I didn't take your quote of context. Did you not state that because a game has a lot of players doesn't mean it's good? Did you not try to say that people haven't come up with the statements I noted earlier? Did you not say that people who play the game haven't play a MMORPG before?
Wow... more assumptions. You can't keep going around making blanket statements like that and expect people to keep taking you seriously.
Don't believe me, go to WoW forums or better yet, go to the forums here on MMORPG.com. The only person making blanket statements right now is yourself for not having gone to these forums in the first place.
For as much as you knock me for saying anyone who hasn't tried any other MMO but WoW could possibly be ignorant about how other MMO's work, here you are saying anybody who doesn't like WoW has bad taste, is anti-social, and sucks at playing.
Again, another display of you throwing words in my mouth. Point out where I said ALL haters are the people I describe. Once I see that post, everything you just said will have a point, but right now you are grasping for straws. Please do us a favor and state of the kitchen.
At this point I'm leaning towards fundie, honestly. A (good) troll would try to make an intelligent reply. Your posts are ripe with the same kind of hypocrisy you find pouring out of fundamentalist religious sects.
Quote, "Dude, get over yourself, you don't have clue of what you are talking about and you believe your opinion matter over other people. I think you maybe more of what you describe than myself. If none of this stuff applies to you, why are you getting mad or in a uproar?
I don't want to get pulled in to this fiasco, but I will say that if you (whoever it was that original stated such) thinks that the majority of mmo players are 13-21 needs to substantiate this claim. Though I can't substantiate it for you, I would guess it to be closer to 19-34 single males as the majority, with females being the same but not single.
I don't have the patience to read this whole thread in detail, but I also agree that if you haven't reached 60 and haven't been to AT LEAST ZG, you also have no clue what end-game is in WoW. It is very different, which is why I always die when I go back to soloing.
And for the comment about warriors sucking at both pvp and pve, try being a rogue sometime. At least you can take hits, maybe an elite somewhere close to your level, and may actually live if you pull more than one.
What else can I comment on.... Oh, here you go. End-game pvp as was hinted at in one post, where competition is lacking to due the constant need to upgrade gear to stay on par is actually a catch-22. the MMO side of the game drives people to play with others in some setting, the Game part usually entails competition (as almost every non-single player game, be it video game, board game, card game, etcs), but then there's the Role Playing part of an MMORPG. The RP part is what involves the storyline, the leveling, and the progression that you all find from lvls 1-60. Once you reach 60 and begin PvPing on what is believed to be a fair playing field, the MMOG and the RPG begin to conflict. To truly make PvP a fair competition you have to remove the RPG from the end-game. If you remove the RPG from the end-game, people lose sight of the reason behind grinding to 60 and playing this type of game in the first place. In other words, a catch-22.
That's what I think. It's an opinion, and thus subjective. Agree, disagree, or agree to disagree. and if you don't know what substantiate, catch-22, or even end-game means try wikipedia for those big words too.
I don't want to get pulled in to this fiasco, but I will say that if you (whoever it was that original stated such) thinks that the majority of mmo players are 13-21 needs to substantiate this claim. Though I can't substantiate it for you, I would guess it to be closer to 19-34 single males as the majority, with females being the same but not single.
I don't have the patience to read this whole thread in detail, but I also agree that if you haven't reached 60 and haven't been to AT LEAST ZG, you also have no clue what end-game is in WoW. It is very different, which is why I always die when I go back to soloing.
And for the comment about warriors sucking at both pvp and pve, try being a rogue sometime. At least you can take hits, maybe an elite somewhere close to your level, and may actually live if you pull more than one.
What else can I comment on.... Oh, here you go. End-game pvp as was hinted at in one post, where competition is lacking to due the constant need to upgrade gear to stay on par is actually a catch-22. the MMO side of the game drives people to play with others in some setting, the Game part usually entails competition (as almost every non-single player game, be it video game, board game, card game, etcs), but then there's the Role Playing part of an MMORPG. The RP part is what involves the storyline, the leveling, and the progression that you all find from lvls 1-60. Once you reach 60 and begin PvPing on what is believed to be a fair playing field, the MMOG and the RPG begin to conflict. To truly make PvP a fair competition you have to remove the RPG from the end-game. If you remove the RPG from the end-game, people lose sight of the reason behind grinding to 60 and playing this type of game in the first place. In other words, a catch-22.
That's what I think. It's an opinion, and thus subjective. Agree, disagree, or agree to disagree. and if you don't know what substantiate, catch-22, or even end-game means try wikipedia for those big words too.
i would actually say that most kids playing are probably 14-40. and i'm completely serious i'm 16, and i know about a 100 kids personally who play, WoW appeals to alot of younger gamers. I on the other hand played, but was dissapointed, i like pve every now and then, but i like to mix it up with crafting and a pvp system where you can capture things in the real world...errr... well not instanced i mean...
I know someone mentioned it earlier, and it really struck me as true, but its true that I started my MMORPG experience with SWG(pre-suck), and the content in that game spoiled me. Luckily i quit before CU was implemented, but my opinoin was definitly cemented to community based games, where there are player cities, player events, player healers.
SWG did alot of things right, i mean their system for medics was ingenious. WoW is also an ingenius game, there are few bugs, and although much of the gameplay is restrictive, it finally creates a foundation of which MMO's can grow on, i just hope that some more community based games or skill based combat systems will become available as the market for mmo's grows.
edit:lol hope this clearifies with anyone whose debated with me why i base all my debates on SWG, suprisingly SWG is one of the strongest examples to argue with.
O, and the reason why, this is my opinoin at least, that there are so many of these hate forums, is because people like to argue. The only reason why i post is to get some responses and get to argue points and stuff, it gives me a warm feeling inside . So i think some people do take these things too seriously, for me nothing said on a forum can be personal, because all we are discussing is a game...with 8 million losers playing!!! lol j/k cause then i would have to count myself as one of those losers, although i'm still mad that WoW banned me on my second day of botting, i mean who ccould blaim me? i had school work to do and my friends were grinding like crazy...
I would like to poitn out now that I am no longer going to debate wether or not WoW is a good game. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and watched it burn in the flame-war. I would, however, like to share ideas and opinions on issues that have since come up.
First as a historian I would debate the point that it is 'human nature' to hate the big guy and love the underdog'. It is not by any means a phenomena repeated throughout the entire human race. It is a western, and largely American at that, ideal. Though we see isolated instances of it, especially in the art community, in other parts of the world, the Unites States is one of the few countries to hold the underdog as a point to rally around, and in some cases, worship. In other parts of the world it is perfectly okay to like the big guy, this is part of why socialist and communist countries were capable of coming into being. They only hated the current government, not the idea of government itself.
For the record, I have played WoW. For the record I did not reach 60, I got tired of the grind at about level 30, twice, and quit. I currently play, and am in the process of creating, text-based MUSHes. In these games I designed from scratch my own living quarters, I designed and later sold pets capable of random action and trained responses and am now working on creating a language for easily communicating complex thoughts to a NPC. Games do not require a grind, in fact it is mostly, in my humble opinion, a gross misuse of the ideas presented in tabletop RPGing where you were supposed to be engaging in interesting story based combat in order to get those levels, not out killing ten random rabbits for a handful of xp with only the most paltry of story to explain why your even doing it.
I do understand the evolutionary theory of game creation, I also believe though that only evolving a single style of play is unhealthy for the genre. Grind based gaming for example. It is diffucult to name a major release recently that did not have you out grinding, RFO, WoW, and UO, just to name ones that I've actually played to some extent. However, oddly enough, the best grind game I've ever played was OZ Online, where they used the grinding game mechanic to further the real intention of the game, socializing. And this is all okay, it's good that grinding has had it's day in the sun and seen some impressive evolutions. However grinding is not the only option to evolve, player based economies have seen some evolutions, but for being such a fascinating subject with such a wide range of players wanting it in a game is still in the early stages of evolution. And hacking simulators have the possibility of being very addictive and fun as Uplink has proven, yet hacking is rarely tackled by MMOs and I have yet to see one using it as the primary mode of gameplay. (If you do know of any please point me to them, btw.)
So yes evolution is good, but I would like to see the light of evolution spread to other areas that are currently underdeveloped.
Oh and as touched on earlier, I would like to say, and this is just my opinion on the matter, competition and roleplaying do not have to be antithesis. It is the underlying basis that roleplaying is based on a set of stats that causes the discordanance. If role playing were about playing a role it would compliment, not conflict with, the competition of the game.
skip to the last 2 lines for the main point, or read on
the only reason people bash WoW is because they are jealous. Jealous that the people who play the game are having fun whilst they sit and troll forums looking for someone to mention their game as a good comparison, yet, WoW allways comes up.
Their solution is to compare WoW to every game? and why would they do that if they bash WoW so much? Because they realize it is obviously doing better than most mmo's out there, in terms of sales, and how well the WoW community is doing.
On a PvP thread you see people bashing WoWs PvP system, stating that it isnt really pvp. (especially from guild wars players where PvP is 100% contained and repetitive) Then you have PvE people saying the game is too easy, and in a month they can beat the game and get the best gear.( offcoarse realistically it takes months to get the best gear, and new dungeons are released, meaning new good gear)
Then you have people complaining about that all WoW is is grinding., Most games have grinding, at different levels, but most contain some amount of grinding, why? well what do you play MMOS for? to get power, strength, a better character. power is work over time, work is force x displacement(or distance), so basically you put in energy by using the computer and apply this force to provide distance(or level gain) and this level gain over time gives you your power, so unless you can find a better system of getting power by using work, distance and time, then grinding / questing is the best way.
Last, but not least, you have people complaining about graphics, honestly world of warcraft has bearable graphics, sure its not F.E.A.R., Oblivion, or even Guild Wars, but atleast the animations look nice and combat isnt really boring, the movement of mobs in world of warcraft is in my opinion is better than that of everquest 2, and so is the way one swings the sword in W.o.W. i mean, in EQ the sword sometimes doesnt even touch the mob. then again im not going to bahs EQ combat, it appeals to some people, just not the millions who are interested in WoW combat.
IMO there are many Great MMos out there, many which I dislike, I like a few such as guild wars and wow, but have quit both of them. There is no need to bash mmos that alot of people play, they play it for a reason you know. Why did George Bush win though many people bashed him? its just because, more people ( who keep quiet ) actually liked him.
so dont be jealous cause of a more successful game, but find the game that is right for you, and instead of comparing to a game you have never played, why not try comparing to one that you actually have played? make sense?
the only reason people bash WoW is because they are jealous. Jealous that the people who play the game are having fun whilst they sit and troll forums looking for someone to mention their game as a good comparison, yet, WoW allways comes up. Their solution is to compare WoW to every game? and why would they do that if they bash WoW so much? Because they realize it is obviously doing better than most mmo's out there, in terms of sales, and how well the WoW community is doing. On a PvP thread you see people bashing WoWs PvP system, stating that it isnt really pvp. (especially from guild wars players where PvP is 100% contained and repetitive) Then you have PvE people saying the game is too easy, and in a month they can beat the game and get the best gear.( offcoarse realistically it takes months to get the best gear, and new dungeons are released, meaning new good gear) Then you have people complaining about that all WoW is is grinding., Most games have grinding, at different levels, but most contain some amount of grinding, why? its the Last, but not least, you have people complaining about graphics
People bash this game as I said before are very anti-social, can't compete with others and wish the game to be exclusive.
thats a pretty cool statement, feel like you have balls? its pretty much stated in my post, there are different kinds of jealously, and success is something people are jealous of on a constant basis. why is a member of your family jealous of that guy who became a doctor or lawyer? ask them
thats a pretty cool statement, feel like you have balls? its pretty much stated in my post, there are different kinds of jealously, and success is something people are jealous of on a constant basis. why is a member of your family jealous of that guy who became a doctor or lawyer? ask them
thats a pretty cool statement, feel like you have balls? its pretty much stated in my post, there are different kinds of jealously, and success is something people are jealous of on a constant basis. why is a member of your family jealous of that guy who became a doctor or lawyer? ask them
I am simply a consumer. I am not a dev nor an employee of a company competing with WOW. I have no reason to be jealous of WOW. If i wanted to play it - i would - but i don't. I played it for 4 months, got to level 60, achieved all i wanted...then left. Simple.
Actually, I will even go on to say that WOW is and has been great for the MMORPG genre as it brought a lot of new people into the market and opened a lot of other companies eyes - just look at bioware, who are now jumping in. Competition is always good news for consumers.
With that said, I realise WOW is probably your first and only MMORPG and that you think it's perfect. But listen carefully - not everyone has the same tastes as you. Lets see, just because you love mcdonalds (and so does a majority of the world) doesn't mean that the people who dislike it are jealous, they simply have different taste. Understand?
And yes, i am cool, why, are you jealous? Sounds like you get jealous a lot...infact i bet you are one of those guys that cries when your girlfriend talks to another guy.
You are either young, sheltered or naive. Grow up.
I would just like to duel some people that say WoW PVP takes no skill, I'm not the best, I'm not the worst and I sure as hell don't have the best gear, I'm just curious.
Comments
On the off chance you are, I'll answer it point by point:
They hate having to compete with other players. - There are many games out there that require ALOT more competition between players than WoW. Eve Online, for instance, with huge battles fought by hundreds of players over star systems. Lineage 2 with it's castle sieges. DAoC and Shadowbane both rewarded player competition as well. One can hate WoW and still like competition. Infact one of the points thats been made constantly in this thread is that the reason alot of the folks around here don't like WoW is because there isn't enough competition for them.
They hate playing for more than 30 minutes. - I'm not even sure how to answer this besides to say it is wrong. I hate WoW for multiple reasons (both gameplay and real life stuff) but I used to sit and play Asheron's Call for hours upon hours. I played EQ1 a couple of hours a day (and understandably didn't get very far :P). I used to play GW about 5 hours a day. And yet both times I've tried to get into WoW after about an hour I'd just get bored and log off. Hell, tonight I played Quake 4 singleplayer for 3 hours. And yet I dislike WoW.
They keep saying the current game they are playing is better than WoW even though their game has less than 90k players. - As mentioned many, many times in multiple WoW hating threads, just because alot of people play the game it doesn't mean the game is perfect, or even good. Now, it doesn't mean it's necessarily horrible either, but it doesn't de facto make it good.
They only made it to level 20 to 40 when playing WoW and think they know the game inside and out. - I think thats the only sane point you made, honestly. That's entirely true. However, when slogging through level after level of the exact same thing it seems pretty reasonable that the entire rest of the game will be the exact same thing.
They have bad taste in MMORPGs. (The current game they are playing has less quality and options than WoW.) - Taste is entirely subjective. There are some people who won't drink wine that doesn't cost at least $50 a bottle and comes from France, and there are some people who are quite happy drinking boxed wine (though even the quality of some boxed wine is pretty good these days from what I hear). With this statement you basically declare that anybody who doesn't like WoW must have bad taste. That, sir, is a false statement. My roommate loves Blink 182 and other pop-punk bands, whereas I prefer jazz and trip-hop. Does that mean he must have bad taste because he doesn't like my music? No, it just means his tastes are different.
They got killed in PvP a lot. - This is just you making an assumption. And you know what they say about people that make those. PvP varies so much from game to game that to make any assumptions about one's performance in one game's PvP would be rather rash. For instance, I'm considered to be a fairly good PvP'er in Guild Wars, and held my own against all but the twinks in WoW, but I get knocked around left and right in Eve.
They keep claiming the children were the downfall of WoW's community when children make up the majority of players in the MMORPG market. - Oh lord, where to begin. I guess I'll just state that you proved yourself false with this statement. If people believe that children are the downfall of the WoW community, and WoW is most of the MMO market, that would mean that would mean statistically that WoW has a heck of alot of kids in it. In fact, probably more kids than the entire population of some games.
Consider every player playing the game un-intelligent or ignorant. - Not all of them are, but it has already been stated that for alot of people who play it, WoW is their first MMO. So while they may be very intellegent, they would be ignorant of what the rest of the MMO world has to offer.
They keep saying WoW is only going to last one more year. - This hasn't been said once in this entire thread and I haven't seen it in any of the forums I frequent. I won't claim to have read every thread here (I actually only come to this site rarely) but it doesn't seem to be a prediction that's pushed often.
You are either a troll or a fundie. I haven't decided which yet.
This launches you into an inevitable maelstrom of information and research and all night game-playing benders. You bounce form game to game trying to see whats been done and what people want and trying to mesh this with your own ideas and your own ouotlook. Trying to form an idea for a game, based on what you know now, that will at the very least pay for itself. And to pay for itself, you have to appeal to gamers, which can limit your vision, changing the game you intended to make.
In Blizzards case we're actually going to have to go back into a bit of history. Back in 199*, I don't care what year it was so don't quote it to me, they made an RTS that was basically a knock off of the popular RPG Warhammer. They did a few interesting things, but nothing new or innovative, just a collection of what had come before, shined and spit polished, if you doubt this a quick visit to [That site with underdog abandonware which shall remain nameless] and their RTS section more specifically should clear up which came first.
It worked, the game was a runaway succes spawning 3 sequels and a couple expansion pack. They then made Diablo, same story, same success. So they thought to test their hand at the MMO game. Their cheif competition was raking in a massive player base of 500k so they probably assumed that was probably their upward cap. They release, same story rinsed and repeated, nothing new, ssdd, better polish, better interface, imho, and a little more hand holding. They soon exceed their expected sales by ohhhhh.... 3 million, and scramble madly to catch up to ta player base some 6 times larger than anticipated and growing. They quickly add content based on their original model and rush to get a team working on a expansion pack. The company gets bleeding rich and hardcore gamers get pissed. Nice bed time story.
You see, WoW, when taken in the context of being designed for a playerbse of millions seems a little, scratch that, alot dissappointing. When designed for a player base of a couple hundered thousand it looks more like a perfect fit. So you see, many times what you are complaining about is not a design flaw, per say, merely a design that was intended for a different use.
Of course there is the second fold of the arguement, the artist's arguement, so to speak. By merely grabbing pre-existing features and rebundling them with more spit polish than you can shake a stick at what they did is not, by some, considered art. But this hearkens back to the arguement of who IS the better artist, Michealangelo or Leonardo DeVinci. Michealangelo is considered one of the greatest masters of all time, but not for inventing an artform, or inventing much of anything actually, but for depicting what others had already been trying to depict in a manner some might describe as perfect. DeVinci invented quite a few things, weapons, contraptions, and a style of drawing that he used ot determine how he would shade a painting in one small portion of it, that we use to this day as a proper style of art. So everything comes back to which you prefer most, the polish or the innovation.
I'm trying not to add too much of my own spin to the provable, since I belieive WoW is what it is and my comments won't change it and shouldn't, BUT it IS a huge financial success. When your facing some hard to swallow development budgets it can be VERY VERY tempting to go with something that already works rather than put it out on the line and hope the hardcore gamers will stop whining long enough to appreciate and support your creativity. In this way WoW can be very destructive to what hard core gamers are looking for.
People like simple things, like WoW, Justin Timberlake and jurassic park.
the problem is people are way too polarized here so much so that there will be potshots from each corner. I think most people can probably agree WoW is a good game, just not everyone's cup of tea and that there are many aspects which perhaps were done better in other mmorpgs. That is no criticism of WoW, as WoW in-turn has done things better than other mmorpgs especially in the form of more casuality.
I do not share the fear of the people that think that WOW's success will hold the gender back. If nothing else, it proved that the gender has a big appeal and it's worth investing in it.
I also don't think that a new MMORPG needs to be completely different than what is currently in the market, or what was available in the past. If nothing else, it will be wise to follow an evolutionary course. Maybe some people would prefer revolutionary gameplay and some developers may be willing to gamble, but I fear that their efforts will be fruitless (good ideas don't necessarily make good implementations).
The most anticipated games in the main page of this side are evolutions of past games. Which is hardly a bad thing, as long as it's fun to play.
Don't be a gamist ( game prejudice or discrimination based on someones gaming preferences ).
Don't be a...don't be...what! lol. If games were racial or ethnic groups of people your term gameist might make some sense. But they aren't, and the reasons why are obvious. My opinion is not a charity organization or a civil right movement, either. I do discriminate based on my "gaming preferences". This is why what I have to say on a subject is valuable even if it pisses you off.
You are completely wrong. Other MMO's "are" more populated because WoW exist. Because WoW brought a brand new crowd to the MMO market. Most people playing WoW had never been playing an MMO before. Most vets leave WoW, which leaves WoW with it's fan base, which is huge enough to support them for a very long time.
Now, the fact that it brought millions of new people to the genre is actually good for every other good mmo. I know a lot of people who didn't play any mmo before WoW, who got bored of WoW and went to play EvE or Dark age of camelot. Those people would had "never" heard of game like EvE or Daoc if it wasn't to being introduced at the MMO market by Blizzard WoW.
So all and all, people with gaming culture soon realize soon or later that there "are" MMO"s better then WoW currently on the market right now. They just have to stick their head out of their ass and make the jump. It will be even more easier when War Hammer comes out: With all the good pve feature, plus the great RvR (pvp) and a robust crafting sytem.
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
On the off chance you are, I'll answer it point by point:
They hate having to compete with other players. - There are many games out there that require ALOT more competition between players than WoW. Eve Online, for instance, with huge battles fought by hundreds of players over star systems. Lineage 2 with it's castle sieges. DAoC and Shadowbane both rewarded player competition as well. One can hate WoW and still like competition. Infact one of the points thats been made constantly in this thread is that the reason alot of the folks around here don't like WoW is because there isn't enough competition for them.
I'm not talking about WoW ability to give you a challenge. Simply put, they don't like feeling as if they have to prove themselves to anyone. That's what I'm talking about. The reason today's games are so simple is because they are catered to this crowd. If you remove this crowd from the MMORPG market, games would be more challenging.
They hate playing for more than 30 minutes. - I'm not even sure how to answer this besides to say it is wrong. I hate WoW for multiple reasons (both gameplay and real life stuff) but I used to sit and play Asheron's Call for hours upon hours. I played EQ1 a couple of hours a day (and understandably didn't get very far :P). I used to play GW about 5 hours a day. And yet both times I've tried to get into WoW after about an hour I'd just get bored and log off. Hell, tonight I played Quake 4 singleplayer for 3 hours. And yet I dislike WoW.
Actually, the biggest fact as to why people hate this game, which has been mention in WoW and many MMORPG forums (whom compare WoW to their games) that players wish the game could be more causal because the game is more for hardcore players. You can't expect to be level 15 in 30 minutes and that's what a lot of causal players expect when playing this game. And because these players can't keep up, they end up being left in the wind with nobody to play with. Soon they become disinterested and they most likely leave WoW. Not only have I read those post, but I got disinterested in the beginning too when I played the game. But then I reminded myself why I bought this game and put more effort into playing it.
They keep saying the current game they are playing is better than WoW even though their game has less than 90k players. - As mentioned many, many times in multiple WoW hating threads, just because alot of people play the game it doesn't mean the game is perfect, or even good. Now, it doesn't mean it's necessarily horrible either, but it doesn't de facto make it good.
Yes, your opinion supersides that of the 8 million people currently playing the game. You're god and you have the final say so.
They only made it to level 20 to 40 when playing WoW and think they know the game inside and out. - I think thats the only sane point you made, honestly. That's entirely true. However, when slogging through level after level of the exact same thing it seems pretty reasonable that the entire rest of the game will be the exact same thing.
So you haven't been through the game, apparently. I've been through the game to level 60 and it's quite different.
They have bad taste in MMORPGs. (The current game they are playing has less quality and options than WoW.) - Taste is entirely subjective. There are some people who won't drink wine that doesn't cost at least $50 a bottle and comes from France, and there are some people who are quite happy drinking boxed wine (though even the quality of some boxed wine is pretty good these days from what I hear). With this statement you basically declare that anybody who doesn't like WoW must have bad taste. That, sir, is a false statement. My roommate loves Blink 182 and other pop-punk bands, whereas I prefer jazz and trip-hop. Does that mean he must have bad taste because he doesn't like my music? No, it just means his tastes are different.
Some fans like DDO and DDO isn't a really good game. Same goes with Vanguard. Yet all these people will exaggarate and tell you those games are better than WoW.
They got killed in PvP a lot. - This is just you making an assumption. And you know what they say about people that make those. PvP varies so much from game to game that to make any assumptions about one's performance in one game's PvP would be rather rash. For instance, I'm considered to be a fairly good PvP'er in Guild Wars, and held my own against all but the twinks in WoW, but I get knocked around left and right in Eve.
This isn't making assumption, I've played WoW and read the WoW forums, here and on their website. Many people do stop playing for reason of PvP matters.
They keep claiming the children were the downfall of WoW's community when children make up the majority of players in the MMORPG market. - Oh lord, where to begin. I guess I'll just state that you proved yourself false with this statement. If people believe that children are the downfall of the WoW community, and WoW is most of the MMO market, that would mean that would mean statistically that WoW has a heck of alot of kids in it. In fact, probably more kids than the entire population of some games.
Actually, people HAVE said this on the WoW forums HERE and in other forums. There's nothing false here, you just wish it weren't true.
Consider every player playing the game un-intelligent or ignorant. - Not all of them are, but it has already been stated that for alot of people who play it, WoW is their first MMO. So while they may be very intellegent, they would be ignorant of what the rest of the MMO world has to offer.
No, and I've had more experience in this than you. People from other forums or in the WoW forum call other people ignorant or indicate they are un-intelligent for playing WoW. For christsakes, you just sat and did the same thing when you said because 8 million people like the game doesn't means it's good. You are basically saying everyone who doesn't see WoW as you do is ignorant. (Even if you didn't say it outloud) I've played game before WoW I believe WoW is better than most games and has raise the bar for MMORPGs.
They keep saying WoW is only going to last one more year. - This hasn't been said once in this entire thread and I haven't seen it in any of the forums I frequent. I won't claim to have read every thread here (I actually only come to this site rarely) but it doesn't seem to be a prediction that's pushed often.
It's been said on this board, WoW forums and MMORPG forum. They especially believe this whenever a new game is coming out.
You are either a troll or a fundie. I haven't decided which yet.
Dude, get over yourself, you don't have clue of what you are talking about and you believe your opinion matter over other people. I think you maybe more of what you describe than myself.
Most (not all) of the people who talk bad about WoW are very anti-social. They hate putting up with other people and they only come up with excuse as to why they hate the game. Like I said, not all the people. Some people don't like the game for various reason in terms of quality, but you can identify those who hate the game for the fact they didn't want to put any effort forth in playing the game or try to be social. In otherwords, they want the game to revolve around them (or an exclusive group) and a not a general crowd.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
The reason there are so many WoW hater threads here and everywhere else is simple and not unique to MMORPGs.
It is human nature to hate the big guy, and people love to love the underdog.
If WoW was exactly the same, but only had 10k Subscriptions, people wouldn't care about it or would love it because it would be an underdog.
No matter how good or bad WoW is, there will be negative posts toward it, and people defending it.
People hated EQ when it was on top, and Now all I see or hear in reference to EQ is how great it was back in the day.
When something comes along and becomes king of the mountain, you may start to see "The Good old days of WoW" posts become more common.
The simple truth to WoW's success is found in the fact that, love or hate, people are comparing their game to WoW.
You don't see people comparing how good or bad game X is compared to say Starwars Galaxies, Anarchy Online, FFXII, Etc..
A great many people hate Microsoft for much the same reason. As soon as another OS becomes the most popular it too will soon be just as hated.
I remember people around me LOVING Blair Witch up and down until it became mainstream, and then hating it. Same with Titanic, ET, Etc... Same thing, different topic.
WoW has mainly first time players, and is very succesfull with them. In the forums you are most of the time reading posts from veteran mmorpg players. They just know how a mmorpg can be and with that have a much higher standard. Its easier to please first timers.
Thats actualy a very logical thought. Considering most vets went through hardcore school (UO, EQ1, etc), they are used to the old-school MMORPGs. Now here comes a newcomer and the gamestyle differs considerably from the old games. Sometimes its hard to adjust for veterans to something that seems so simple and easy compared to hardcore MMOs they used to play. So they rush through the content, end up grinding hi-end dungeons or PvP points and get frustrated for obvious reasons.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Quote, "Dude, get over yourself, you don't have clue of what you are talking about and you believe your opinion matter over other people. I think you maybe more of what you describe than myself.
"
I don't have the patience to read this whole thread in detail, but I also agree that if you haven't reached 60 and haven't been to AT LEAST ZG, you also have no clue what end-game is in WoW. It is very different, which is why I always die when I go back to soloing.
And for the comment about warriors sucking at both pvp and pve, try being a rogue sometime. At least you can take hits, maybe an elite somewhere close to your level, and may actually live if you pull more than one.
What else can I comment on.... Oh, here you go. End-game pvp as was hinted at in one post, where competition is lacking to due the constant need to upgrade gear to stay on par is actually a catch-22. the MMO side of the game drives people to play with others in some setting, the Game part usually entails competition (as almost every non-single player game, be it video game, board game, card game, etcs), but then there's the Role Playing part of an MMORPG. The RP part is what involves the storyline, the leveling, and the progression that you all find from lvls 1-60. Once you reach 60 and begin PvPing on what is believed to be a fair playing field, the MMOG and the RPG begin to conflict. To truly make PvP a fair competition you have to remove the RPG from the end-game. If you remove the RPG from the end-game, people lose sight of the reason behind grinding to 60 and playing this type of game in the first place. In other words, a catch-22.
That's what I think. It's an opinion, and thus subjective. Agree, disagree, or agree to disagree. and if you don't know what substantiate, catch-22, or even end-game means try wikipedia for those big words too.
I know someone mentioned it earlier, and it really struck me as true, but its true that I started my MMORPG experience with SWG(pre-suck), and the content in that game spoiled me. Luckily i quit before CU was implemented, but my opinoin was definitly cemented to community based games, where there are player cities, player events, player healers.
SWG did alot of things right, i mean their system for medics was ingenious. WoW is also an ingenius game, there are few bugs, and although much of the gameplay is restrictive, it finally creates a foundation of which MMO's can grow on, i just hope that some more community based games or skill based combat systems will become available as the market for mmo's grows.
edit:lol hope this clearifies with anyone whose debated with me why i base all my debates on SWG, suprisingly SWG is one of the strongest examples to argue with.
O, and the reason why, this is my opinoin at least, that there are so many of these hate forums, is because people like to argue. The only reason why i post is to get some responses and get to argue points and stuff, it gives me a warm feeling inside
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Tabatron/Fading-SWGEMU.gif
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/Tabatron/Fading-SWGEMU.gif
First as a historian I would debate the point that it is 'human nature' to hate the big guy and love the underdog'. It is not by any means a phenomena repeated throughout the entire human race. It is a western, and largely American at that, ideal. Though we see isolated instances of it, especially in the art community, in other parts of the world, the Unites States is one of the few countries to hold the underdog as a point to rally around, and in some cases, worship. In other parts of the world it is perfectly okay to like the big guy, this is part of why socialist and communist countries were capable of coming into being. They only hated the current government, not the idea of government itself.
For the record, I have played WoW. For the record I did not reach 60, I got tired of the grind at about level 30, twice, and quit. I currently play, and am in the process of creating, text-based MUSHes. In these games I designed from scratch my own living quarters, I designed and later sold pets capable of random action and trained responses and am now working on creating a language for easily communicating complex thoughts to a NPC. Games do not require a grind, in fact it is mostly, in my humble opinion, a gross misuse of the ideas presented in tabletop RPGing where you were supposed to be engaging in interesting story based combat in order to get those levels, not out killing ten random rabbits for a handful of xp with only the most paltry of story to explain why your even doing it.
I do understand the evolutionary theory of game creation, I also believe though that only evolving a single style of play is unhealthy for the genre. Grind based gaming for example. It is diffucult to name a major release recently that did not have you out grinding, RFO, WoW, and UO, just to name ones that I've actually played to some extent. However, oddly enough, the best grind game I've ever played was OZ Online, where they used the grinding game mechanic to further the real intention of the game, socializing. And this is all okay, it's good that grinding has had it's day in the sun and seen some impressive evolutions. However grinding is not the only option to evolve, player based economies have seen some evolutions, but for being such a fascinating subject with such a wide range of players wanting it in a game is still in the early stages of evolution. And hacking simulators have the possibility of being very addictive and fun as Uplink has proven, yet hacking is rarely tackled by MMOs and I have yet to see one using it as the primary mode of gameplay. (If you do know of any please point me to them, btw.)
So yes evolution is good, but I would like to see the light of evolution spread to other areas that are currently underdeveloped.
Oh and as touched on earlier, I would like to say, and this is just my opinion on the matter, competition and roleplaying do not have to be antithesis. It is the underlying basis that roleplaying is based on a set of stats that causes the discordanance. If role playing were about playing a role it would compliment, not conflict with, the competition of the game.
skip to the last 2 lines for the main point, or read on
the only reason people bash WoW is because they are jealous. Jealous that the people who play the game are having fun whilst they sit and troll forums looking for someone to mention their game as a good comparison, yet, WoW allways comes up.
Their solution is to compare WoW to every game? and why would they do that if they bash WoW so much? Because they realize it is obviously doing better than most mmo's out there, in terms of sales, and how well the WoW community is doing.
On a PvP thread you see people bashing WoWs PvP system, stating that it isnt really pvp. (especially from guild wars players where PvP is 100% contained and repetitive) Then you have PvE people saying the game is too easy, and in a month they can beat the game and get the best gear.( offcoarse realistically it takes months to get the best gear, and new dungeons are released, meaning new good gear)
Then you have people complaining about that all WoW is is grinding., Most games have grinding, at different levels, but most contain some amount of grinding, why? well what do you play MMOS for? to get power, strength, a better character. power is work over time, work is force x displacement(or distance), so basically you put in energy by using the computer and apply this force to provide distance(or level gain) and this level gain over time gives you your power, so unless you can find a better system of getting power by using work, distance and time, then grinding / questing is the best way.
Last, but not least, you have people complaining about graphics, honestly world of warcraft has bearable graphics, sure its not F.E.A.R., Oblivion, or even Guild Wars, but atleast the animations look nice and combat isnt really boring, the movement of mobs in world of warcraft is in my opinion is better than that of everquest 2, and so is the way one swings the sword in W.o.W. i mean, in EQ the sword sometimes doesnt even touch the mob. then again im not going to bahs EQ combat, it appeals to some people, just not the millions who are interested in WoW combat.
IMO there are many Great MMos out there, many which I dislike, I like a few such as guild wars and wow, but have quit both of them. There is no need to bash mmos that alot of people play, they play it for a reason you know. Why did George Bush win though many people bashed him? its just because, more people ( who keep quiet ) actually liked him.
so dont be jealous cause of a more successful game, but find the game that is right for you, and instead of comparing to a game you have never played, why not try comparing to one that you actually have played? make sense?
Cause we all know everyone has the same exact tastes as you and that wow is perfect in everyway for everybody.
thats a pretty cool statement, feel like you have balls? its pretty much stated in my post, there are different kinds of jealously, and success is something people are jealous of on a constant basis. why is a member of your family jealous of that guy who became a doctor or lawyer? ask them
And here's another shining example why WOW sucks.
The community...need i say more.
I am simply a consumer. I am not a dev nor an employee of a company competing with WOW. I have no reason to be jealous of WOW. If i wanted to play it - i would - but i don't. I played it for 4 months, got to level 60, achieved all i wanted...then left. Simple.
Actually, I will even go on to say that WOW is and has been great for the MMORPG genre as it brought a lot of new people into the market and opened a lot of other companies eyes - just look at bioware, who are now jumping in. Competition is always good news for consumers.
With that said, I realise WOW is probably your first and only MMORPG and that you think it's perfect. But listen carefully - not everyone has the same tastes as you. Lets see, just because you love mcdonalds (and so does a majority of the world) doesn't mean that the people who dislike it are jealous, they simply have different taste. Understand?
And yes, i am cool, why, are you jealous? Sounds like you get jealous a lot...infact i bet you are one of those guys that cries when your girlfriend talks to another guy.
You are either young, sheltered or naive. Grow up.