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Tiller
Member LegendaryPosts: 11,449
An Interview with Raph Koster
by Shayde
There are few MMO developers who have made an impact like Raphael Koster.
Back when MMO’s were text based MUDs, he helped bring LegendMUD to the online world. His work at Legend got him noticed by Origin Systems where he was hired as a developer and helped create one of the first real MMO ever, Ultima Online.
In 2000, Raph moved to Verant and was lead designer on a game many of us came to know and love, Star Wars Galaxies. His vision of an online game that was all about freedom and possibilities was something that few other games have come near realizing.
RealMMO : Many people consider you the Father of the MMO. Your accomplishments in the genre have helped define what kind of game many think an MMO should be.
Raph Koster : First off, I think I have zero claim to the title of “the father of the MMO.” I’ve spent too much time looking at the history of virtual worlds to make any such claim. People should be thinking instead of pioneers like RIchard Bartle and Roy Trubshaw, John Taylor and Kelton Flinn, and Randy Farmer and Chip Morningstar. I feel lucky to consider 5 of those 6 folks friends.
RealMMO : Ok, maybe we give you too much credit, or you’re just too humble. From your perspective, what makes a good game?
Raph : I think what someone calls a good game is different for every person. In the book, I talk about how games are about identifying, learning, and mastering patterns. The thing about that is that everyone comes to a game with a different set of experiences, different games in their past, different life experience that means they have a different library of patterns to draw on. They also will have different learning strategies, so what looks like an easy pattern to one person might look insanely hard to another.
Fun happens when the right patterns, or game systems, meet a player with the right sort of expertise, basically. And everyone’s different. Some folks are bored silly by spreadsheet-heavy play. Others think that dancing is unchallenging, or that combat is repetitious and pointless.
I think a key skill for a designer is to be able to understand that simple fact. It’s easy to think that the patterns YOU like are the “right” ones, or to think that games can only have certain sorts of patterns in them. I think you can have great games that are very narrowly focused. But many of my favorite online worlds are the ones where you have a wide array of types of challenges, so you can try lots of stuff, and switch when you grow bored of something.
Sadly, that reality came and went, and so did Raph. Star Wars Galaxies underwent a major overhaul they called “New Game Enhancements” or the NGE. Most of the systems Raph created were tossed aside in favor of a simplistic third-person shooter style MMO that turned the players on their ear. It inspired most of the players to leave the game in anger… while others are trying to re-create the game with their own emulator.
RealMMO : You obviously know about the nge brouhaha, and the work on emulators to help recreate the game they loved so much. How do you feel when so many long for the game you designed?
Raph : Flattered, basically.
RealMMO : Do you think there's hope for those who long for Classic SWG?
Raph : I don’t think the design principles will be gone forever. Someone, somewhere, will make another game with the same qualities and characteristics and philosophies. Hopefully, they’ll make it better, and improve on it. It may not be Star Wars, though.
Could it be Raph’s newest project, Areae? On Thursday, December 14th, Raph announced to the online world the name of his next game. While little details have come out on exactly what type of game Areae is, you know it’ll be the kind of game that we have come to expect from Raph Koster.
But will it fit into an online game dominated by simpler, linear games like World of Warcraft?
RealMMO : Looking at the MMO genre as a whole, you have said WoW has set the industry back instead of moving it foreward. Explain this view for us if you would.
Raph : I think WoW sets us back only in specific ways. I think it moves us forward in other specific ways. Blizzard, as usual, nailed polish, nailed guiding the player, nailed a look and feel. They took the old formula and put it in really snazzy bottles. That’s what they do best, and they are very very good at it – the best in the industry.
But they also didn’t pick up the ball and run with a lot of stuff that are growing trends in the MMO industry today – and what’s more, given their expertise, they probably never will. We’re seeing a lot of interest in stuff like user-created content, in-world economies in games like Eve Online, and so on, and we don’t see anything that sophisticated in WoW. WoW is very much a “theme park” sort of world, one which is about putting you on a ride and letting you experience it. There’s a lot of directions that online worlds are starting to grow in, and I think that in a lot of ways WoW is like the apotheosis of the old, rather than pointing a way to the new.
RealMMO : Some say that WoW was so successful because of its high level of polish and low level of bugs , where many companies (SOE, Dark and Light) have been accused of rushing things out half-done? Could this have been a lesson for other companies?
Raph : It’s certainly a huge lesson. But I think it’s important to realize that virtually no other companies can AFFORD the kind of patience and polish that Blizzard had. It cost them a fortune, and WoW is certainly among the most expensive games ever made. A smaller company simply won’t be able to deliver that – they’d fold before they could ship. They have to choose between size and quality. Or perhaps choose different definitions of quality altogether.
RealMMO : Looking at where the market is now.. what do you think the next big thing will be? Skill based sandboxes, or hand-held linear content? Maybe a "Sandbox with toys" approach? What do you think would be the ideal MMO?
Raph : Well, I hope the next big thing is what we’re working on!
If I had to sum it all up in one world, it’s “choice.” One of the things about the more directed games is that they really don’t give you choice. “You pays your money, you takes yer ride.” You don’t get to hop off midway or try out different ways to play. And while pretty much everyone enjoys a theme park ride at least once, the number of people who come back to it over and over is relatively limited compared to the broader array of activities in the world. We lose sight of the fact that WoW is big, but MySpace dwarfs it.
RealMMO : What's missing from the MMO industry right now?
Raph : Well, honestly, I personally am missing a game that I really want to play. Eve looks cool but takes too much time, and WoW is too linear and familiar for me – I burned out on the level grind very very long ago.
RealMMO : What does it take to develop a game? (In broad strokes).
Raph : Mostly, determination. Anyone can start making a game right now. All you need is something to write on. We get so hung up on the presentation, but you could “play” most of WoW with a deck of cards and some dice. Like most any other field, you have to just go DO it.
It definitely helps to have a deep understanding of how games work, on as many levels as possible. A good designer studies how things work, and in video games, a really good designer can talk to team members from any part of the project in their language, from code to marketing, art to UI.
RealMMO : Many think the Sci-Fi genre is highly underrepresented in the MMO market. Some say it's because elves are the popular games... others say the elves are popular because few are making Sci-Fi MMO's. Is it a chicken/egg dilemma?
Raph : I’m torn. I think that SF is associated with certain types of gameplay – shooting, above all – and that has worked against sci-fi MMORPGs. I also think that there’s something to be said for the argument that fantasy has really strong archetypes that it is easy to identify with.
But I also think that sci-fi can probably pull off a lot of that.
So now we look forward to Areae. Could it be the next big thing? Many MMO gamers will be waiting anxiously to find out. As Areae develops, RealMMO will keep you informed on the latest news, as well as provide a place for you to discuss, dream and pontificate HERE.
Lastly, we asked the most important question…
RealMMO : Can the members of RealMMO.COM be your next betatesters?
Raph : Some of them, probably.
There’s hope for us all.
Comments
This interview really gave me a lot of hope for the future of MMO''s.
I particularily liked Raph's quote about WoW...
"WoW is like the apotheosis of the old, rather then pointing a way to the new"
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Good job, man!
Great interview! There is still hope...
Starwars Galaxies, An Empier Diveded, That's what it says on my box anyway.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
Man I don't think there is any point i actually disagree with. Its almost scary If i had been asked those questions my Answers would have been nearly identical.
So with that I leave you with
"Save us Raph Koster, you're our only hope"
He can't answer those questions due to an NDA. We went over what he could say and what he couldn't, and those questions he clearly couldn't.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
He can't answer those questions due to an NDA. We went over what he could say and what he couldn't, and those questions he clearly couldn't.
Well he does not seem to have a problem talking about SWG whenever it suits his own needs LMAO. As I said it was not a bad interview but yes it was biased to a certain degree but that can only be expected, not really any different from any other gaming website that does interviews. Nevertheless not bad overall
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
Biased on who's part? Interviwer or interviewee?
Also, what do you consider a mistake in his approach to SWG, and are these "mistakes" subjective or objective?
Lastly, how do you know specifically it was Raph that made these "mistakes"?
Nice interview there Shayde! Good to see you at work.
I didn't see any bias in the interview, clearly Raph is just speaking from his experiences, of which he has more than the average bear. WOW is more than a game , its a huge ghost in the virtual machine. It jumps out like some maniac no matter what the mmo game you're talking about.
I wouldn't expect Raph to unleash about the NGE, he talked about that stuff on his web site eons ago and time to move on.
I think the flaw in interviewing him at this point is the same one you get trying to talk to Bioware about their mmorpg...They want publicity and awareness, naturally, but they can't or won't squeek out any real information. Pretty frustrating to dance around that, but they all do it.
Enjoyed reading the interview, thanks!
I wonder if the goals of Areae might be too broad? Trying to provide a game that satisfies everyone might result in nobody being really satisfied. I think the best products will always focus directly on a specific market; it's the old saying, "you can't satisfy everyone."
Regardless, I'm always keeping an eye on Raph.
He said he has a few games on the backburner so he covered all his bases. We may see that niche sandbox MMO as well as the directed content MMO. Games for all play styles really.John Smedley beat up my grandmother.
/yawn
All the MMO News Worth Caring About
yay for pointless posts mixed with elitists attitudes =D
Out of every 100 men, 10 should not be there,
80 are nothing but targets, 9 are the real fighters.
Ah, but one, ONE of them is a warrior,
and he will bring the others home.
-Heraclitus 500BC
thanks a lot for posting this interview!
"I think that in a lot of ways WoW is like the apotheosis of the old, rather than pointing a way to the new."
Well so is Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Titanic or a Tarantino movie.
Yet these patterns are successful, we could go as far as looking at some ancient Greek dramas
Sure the MMORPGs have this interactivity thing going for them,
but we just can't ignore that many people want to be "entertained" rather than entertaining others and creating new content (for example by roleplaying for others) and instead merely join a simplistic competition game about who knows the "game engine" best and wins in PVP matches (most MMO(RP)Gs I played that had a focus on PVP did not demand a skilled mouse or trackball player, like someone who wins because of better reflexes like in sports).
I thought about ways as how we could include all those number crunchers, PVP lovers and quest drones with the roleplayers enjoying their sandbox in some older posts of mine.
So, what happens when someone who eagerly awaits the rides at Disney Land takes the wrong turn and ends up in some open air theater with a sophisticated live performance of some actors going on (you know those nasty ones that like to include the passive listeners in their show
)
It gives you a pretty good feel of what happens in some of those more advanced virtual box games.
There are some patterns in behaviour that can give a game designer a hint. Don't worry, I'll come to the point quick
For example: Why is it people get so upset about "gold sellers" in a mmorpg?
There is multitude of reasons I won't get into. But one thing is obvious, people who play a game want it to be "fair" in a way, they want everyone at the same initial position. No one should cheat (again just think of any sports competition) and of course they want to be able to understand the rules of the game.
However what happens in those virtual sandbox games (especially those that try to encourage grouping/guilds or some other forms of community building) is that the more "social" player type always has an edge over the introverted player. It can get as paradox as players who enjoy the simple grind/timesink/award style game feel threatend by silver-tongued roleplayers, pvp mouse acrobats, or just "big guilds" or twink chars or gold buyers who all somehow seem to "parade" unequal conditions. Part of WoW's philosophy is that everyone should feel like a winner (hero) to some degree, however naturally "real" sandbox worlds won't work out like that.
I think for some players the WoW gameplay is exactly what they are looking for as it gives them satisfaction to have accomplished something.
Levels give satisfaction, items (gear) give satisfaction, titles give satisfaction, and just following some rewarding questlines in a world with nice graphics is "immersive" enough for many players. You may have noticed that some people see levels as accomplishments equal to quest missions as they play exactly to the point they reached level x then they log out, until next time
Then we have those "casual gamers" that just look for some distraction, like a "simple" world where you can do and see fun stuff. We all do it to a degree when we watch some Hollywood movie.
.
And we have those who don't care much about the surroundings and take the game as some sort of advanced chat engine (using avatar emotions and such), where you can meet new people and talk about the weather (observe the silence and you can hear some roleplayers moaning
"If I had to sum it all up in one world, it’s “choice.” "
Choice. Giving players more choices to try out different playstyles and such is usually a good thing.
However one should always make sure not do overdo complexity. In Anarchy Online I've seen people grow
desperate about finding the "correct" nano chip setup to make their avatars more efficient,
and I got to know a player who always wanted to be a space-shipwright in SWG, but then was so overwhelmed by the complexity of the crafting and harvesting systems that he? finally gave up and rolled a combat toon.
While in the later case the player found a different sphere to advance and have fun, things lie
different in first case. AO focuses on pvp and there were quite a few players that thougt they'd
"never have a chance" to compete (unlike your everyday FPS). So give players choices but make sure they are able to understand the rules and possibilities of their world. By the way, it would be interesting to think
about "in game ways" to reward players that do help others to master some of the more complex game mechanics. You could do such things "in Character" and gain something like "social points".
Hmmm, today I won't rehash skill based versus levelbased gameplay though it's obvious how fixed class systems and levels can limit a players possibilities. If Areae is about choice it won't go there for sure.
As I was very curious about this Areae project, I tried to read up about it, but didn't find much at all. One thing that makes me a bit sceptic is that it is announced as a "Web 2.0" application. Well, in my humble opinion the whole Web 2.0 term is nothing but an uninformative marketing phrase, though this should not have any impact on Areae I sure pore over it.
While looking at these forums I noticed that quite a few people demand more immersion from their games, for many the graphical presentation of a game seems to be a key factor for having an immersive game experience. Though I think it's just one of many factors it still makes me think how a Web 2.0 application can hold up to these expectations.
I do think that future MMORPGs should try to cater to as many different playstyles and desires as possible and have many spheres to enjoy. You should be able to include the "directed approach" on top of a sandbox world without falling for shaping the game to please the instant gratification crowd only. Moreover we should reward players that create content for others and give them more tools to do so. Take SWG, how cool would it have been for entertainers to compose their own songs and perform them in front of other players
Nobody can tell me you can't code that, it's just that many game designers are either trapped in old concepts or not able to get their way with the QA or a publisher who's into the proven copycat game. Let's hope for a big surprise with Areae!
Good luck and regards,
Lena