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Why not take Tekken style combat into an MMORPG?
Stereoviewer
Member Posts: 238
Twitch-based games like Tekken or Onimusha are much more fun when it comes to combat than auto attack style MMORPGs, where you can go grab a sandwich while your char is hitting it away (this is why it´s often refered to as sandwich combat). Why can´t gamedevelopers be a little innovative and implement twitch based combat? I know Ultima X was about to do this, but it seems like this game has an uncertain future.
Don´t tell me the ones with the best ping will allways win. This argument is not valid for FPS games, and shouldn´t be it for a MMORPG either. I often play CS on brittish servers, and I live in Sweden. A nice byproduct of twitchbased combat is that you don´t care as much about the leveling treadmill anymore, since it won´t give you certain victory when it comes to PvP.
With less emphasis on grinding, the game devs have to concentrate on providing more varied and fun content. I have a hard time understanding why game devs haven´t tried this yet. Maybe it´s because they´re afraid to challange the conservative MMORPG palyerbase?
Comments
Auto attack gets boring after a while. They do need one of those mmo's where you can button mash it out while trying to do quests and stuff.
MMORPG's are not ready for twitch based melee combat...
FPS games that seem to have twitch based combat use a lot of interpolation (read: educated guessing) to make you believe that lag is not affecting the game. That is possible when the weapons are ranged based. But with melee combat, when you tell your character to punch someone and it takes a half a second before that guys head snaps back and you get a sound effect, the lag will become painfully obvious.
With ranged based combat, they can take a guess at whether or not you hit the guy and let the game engine worry about taking damage away from him later down the road and you just don't know the difference.
Look at it like this:
You tell your character to punch at me. Your PC sends a packet to the server telling it you want to punch. Then the server has to tell my PC you are punching. Now it has been a 10th of a second, you are already expecting your character to be throwing that punch. So, on your screen that punch has almost reached me, but it has not even begun to swing at me on my screen.
Then, I see that punch coming, and I tell my character to throw up a block. My character begins blocking, and my PC sends a packet to the server saying I am blocking. The server sends that packet to your PC telling you I blocked. So, now we are at 1/4 of a second from when you told your character to punch, and in your eyes that punch should have landed already, but what you actually see is a slow motion fight where you threw up a block and your swing almost hit me and my arm flew up in an instant and blocke dth epunch at the last possible moment. I blocked a punch that you threw a quarter of a second ago.
It just wouldn't be realistic in any way shape or form and very frustrating.
With ranged combat (guns), there is no blocking. And the shot you fire can be considered instant. So, if you shoot at where I was standing, your PC has a very good idea whether it hit or not. The question is was I standing there or not. And whether I tried to block or duck doesn't matter, there doesn't have to be reaction time for me.
A Tekken style combat game without blocking and countering would be very boring and dumb. And with Internet Lag, there is no way you can effectively have blocking/dodging/ducking/etc...
The farther away you get from your target the more latency affects your aim, and that is why more people lead their shots. This is controlable but in melee lower ping means more. I always thought most MMORPG players where FPS rejects. *Shrugs* I guess I'm a reject too.
would never work with current tech but maybe latter.
I am THE FUNG!!!!
I am THE FUNG!!!!
I think the Matrix Online is attempting this style of combat are they not ?
"I can tell you with no ego, this is my finest sword. If, on your journey, you should encounter God. . .
. . . God will be cut."
- Quentin Tarantino, Kill Bill
EQII
Requiiem, Templar
Neriak
I want Mortal Combat/Matrix style combat
GET OVER HERE !
FINISH HIM !
For sure this kind of combat is generally wanted, since it gives an extra element of fun to the game. Although the lag issue is a big one, and it seems to be but a hope for the future now. Who wouldn't have loved to have a monk in everquest fighting like Johnny Cage or whoever? that would be incredible!
i like a little mixture of both twitch and auto... i hate full twitch because then its practically an FPS where the person who jumps and strafe's more will win... ntm if u hit a slight lag spike it could mean the end...
i like games where u get in the fight by like double clicking or something and ur person starts taking swings, from which point u start using skills/spells as needed...
this makes it so auto will do alot of the work if ur just fighting small critters and such but for bigger game u still need the twitch and strategy to come out on top...
no matter where u come from... no matter where u are now... no matter where ur going... its all about the EXP
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gee i wonder... lets see now... at most an FPS would have like 40 or so ppl in 1 server at a time while an MMORPG could very well have thousands... hmmm... and who here has ever heard of lag in an MMORPG... everyone knows every MMORPG out there runs with absolutely no lag at all times... [/sarcasm]
whether or not u "buy the lag/ping argument" its a good argument that makes perfect sense...
no matter where u come from... no matter where u are now... no matter where ur going... its all about the EXP
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The problem with 'twitch' combat is that your character can then only become as good as you the player. Which takes away the point of developing your character more or less. i know there are lots of people who can take a weak tekken character and absolutely destroy me even when i pick a better character.
The simple click combat is not good enough and really boring, but i dont think tekken style play is the answer unless the game is going to be more about PvP than anything else.
I know lots of people will disagree with me when i say this but "MMORPG's should have nothing to do with player skill in combat". What i mean by this is that a lvl 10 fighter will kill a level 9 fighter in combat unless hit by bad luck and good luck from the lvl 9 fighter.
I think player tactics should be included, for example pulling enemies, having archers and fighters backed up by healers etc, but not that actual skill.
If my healer is a higher level than yours then he should be better, fullstop.
HOWEVER, i do think that each path you take should allow you a great deal of flexibility in character creation. For example when you level up i think you should get point to put onto certain stats whereby you can make your fighter better or worse than the next mans. This will mean a lvl 9 could beat a badly designed lvl 10. And this is the only way. You should truly have to think about the way you want to create your character and not just be a better twitcher.
Elite Member - MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Elite Member - MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
I have to admit I only played the Neocron free trial, and just for a few minutes. But my point is that games like these do exist, and that is proof enough that it´s possible to play twitch based MMOs.
I agree with that the possibilty of progress is one of the reasons why we play MMORPGs, but that doesn´t have to eliminate player skill. I´m for a compromise between stat based and twitch based combat systems.
This could be done by implementing higher HP and damage dealing and/or access to better armor and weapons for high lvl chars, kind of how it works in Planetside. You could also get access to special attacks, that still has to be aimed. In this way, you can get the best out of the two systems.
PS. I tried out RYL yetserday. The game is promissing. Thanks for the tip.
Something like a compromise between the two wouldnt be so bad, but i would like to be able to choose auto attack and perform the same basic attack over and over again. Then i could use my own skill to perform certain special moves, which could possibly chain into combo'setc.
I like the idea of this from UX:O. As you level you earn special types of attack which you have to perform yourself in combat, but for example if you use one special attack you can then use a follow up special attack, IE i could knock you down then stab you in the chest. You could also knock somebody down but fail to get a combo and just stab them in the chest when they get up, but it wouldnt be as effective.
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Has anyone played jedi knight or jedi academy?
I havent played it but people say that it s skill based combat.
bsherlock makes a good point that in a mmorpg with a "twitch" based combat system that the character would only become as good as the player.
One idea might be to tie the "twitch" combat moves into skills so that they succeed or fail based on your skill level and attributes. Devs could also design it so that you learn more combos as you advance.
I wouldn't mind seeing arms and legs broken, maimed or lopped off if you hit them with maces, axes and swords or very powerful magic missile or energy spell. Fable for the xbox will be adding some of this, but its not going to be a mmorgp, not even online,
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A mmorpg with specific body part damage, scarring, and a more action packed combat system is probably still 2 to 3 years out in my opinion.
"The probability of someone watching you is porportional to the stupidity of your action." Hartley's 1st Law
this is basically Anarchy Online... you have that type of skill set-up, where you can make lvl 15 chars way worse then a lvl 9 one... and AO also has in theory a semi-twitch combat system... but still it is boring button, or hot-key clicking every now and then
but in points to the topic... a twitch-based game would be awesome... but even most cable/dsl users will have problems... and everyone would also need a top of the line computer basically... so really a few years off to being a perfected idea... until then...we have the crap we have now...
-Scott