WAR vs WoW question.

bballermc333 · May 2007

Ok I have a question and Im not flaming so please dont just respond wildly, but actually respond with back up details and such.

Ok I have not realy read alot on this game and I have only recently looked into it but to me the game looks like WoW.

The game has RvR, kind of like WoWs Horde vs Alliance. The game is based on PvP which I like but so is WoW pretty much. The classes look pretty cool but I dont want another WoW game were you quest non stop and get stupid rewards like 2 gold.

I played LOTRo and Ive already gotten somewhat bored at level 15, WoW I got extreamly bored at level 27 and leveled my friends 48 for a little but It was the same exact quests as level 27 with different monsters.

I think personally the game looks OK because Warhammer the board game was cool where you paint your own peices and such. I just dont understand why the game is so hyped. LOTRo still is hyped and I think now it is a WoW copy.

Off topic but I personally think that PvP games like this need to give you XP for killing other players. More XP infact than you get from killing monsters. It takes more skill to fight someone with an actual brain that knows when to do what then it does to kill a monster that sits there. Asheron's Call started this but you get like 1,400 xp for a kill and you can get 1,000,000 from a random monster. So I think you should get more XP from killing a player your level or higher then you get from grinding on a Mob of monsters that spawn in one spot and you can cast a few AOE spells or use a few AOE attacks and get a butt load of xp.

Servase · May 2007

Originally posted by bballermc333

Ok I have a question and Im not flaming so please dont just respond wildly, but actually respond with back up details and such.
Ok I have not realy read alot on this game and I have only recently looked into it but to me the game looks like WoW.
The game has RvR, kind of like WoWs Horde vs Alliance. The game is based on PvP which I like but so is WoW pretty much. The classes look pretty cool but I dont want another WoW game were you quest non stop and get stupid rewards like 2 gold.
I played LOTRo and Ive already gotten somewhat bored at level 15, WoW I got extreamly bored at level 27 and leveled my friends 48 for a little but It was the same exact quests as level 27 with different monsters.
I think personally the game looks OK because Warhammer the board game was cool where you paint your own peices and such. I just dont understand why the game is so hyped. LOTRo still is hyped and I think now it is a WoW copy.
Off topic but I personally think that PvP games like this need to give you XP for killing other players. More XP infact than you get from killing monsters. It takes more skill to fight someone with an actual brain that knows when to do what then it does to kill a monster that sits there. Asheron's Call started this but you get like 1,400 xp for a kill and you can get 1,000,000 from a random monster. So I think you should get more XP from killing a player your level or higher then you get from grinding on a Mob of monsters that spawn in one spot and you can cast a few AOE spells or use a few AOE attacks and get a butt load of xp.

Ok well.. I'll try my best. So here it goes....

First off, the game graphics wise, sort of look like WoW. But remember, WAR has way better graphics, sort of the same idea though.

WoW didn't set the bar, so don't think everything about WoW is original. They copied a lot from previous MMO's, blizzard is rather noob to MMO's. But not noob to what makes a game addicting. That's all that matters.

Anywho, WoW has very little.. in fact nothing to do with PVP. The PVP in WoW is horrible. The RvR in WAR is nothing like horde vs alliance. Since, in WoW, there is no emphasis towards horde fighting alliance. In WAR everything is quite literally, about war. In WoW, it's all about PVE, which they later improved PVP a bit. But in WAR you can take over and/or destroy opposing faction bases. In WoW you can not do any of this.

Horde vs Alliance is rather crummy. When you buy the game, you think all you will end up doing in the end, is fighting horde if your alliance, and alliance if you're horde. When in fact, this is untrue. Blizzard does very little to signify that horde and alliance hate each other. In WAR this is totally untrue. Everything leads to war and you will always be at war. You will always be able to fight the opposing factions, you will never stop waging war. In WoW, meh... you can pve, then if you REALLY want to. You can go to an AB game. You can never take over or destroy a town.

So ya, in conclusion. WAR is very different from WoW. The graphics kind of look similar. But they aren't the same. WAR has much better graphics, WoW is sorta kiddie cartoon. Also, WoW has very little to do with PVP. You have to actually go find a way to pvp. So you have to enter an AB. Even then, it's a small pvp. It's also only in a short small map like AB. Then you win or lose and you sign up again. In WAR there's pvp everywhere. There's never a time you will say, omg... where can I pvp. It's everywhere, and the pvp in WAR will totally own WoW, obviously. However, WoW is more PVE, so it might be than WAR for PVE. EA Mythic hasn't really stated much for PVE in WAR. Like if there will be instances and such. But I doubt you will get anything decent, itemwise, from PVE. Since, that totally contradicts everything the devs said. It will change from skill vs skill, to items vs items.

That's another thing that sets WoW and WAR a part. WAR will be about skill, if you're a 12yr old pussyfart, continue playing WoW, since you will get owned. In WAR skills wins bottom line.

In the end, WAR is still a fantasy game. It doesn't really have that much innovation. It has spew up some new ideas that haven't been in past MMO's. But, it's not a completely new game. I like to think of it as DAoC 2, or DAoC + WoW + a couple new ideas. What I mean by DAoC 2 is, it's got the same background, just a different IP. So like a graphics enhancement, but with rather than old age war, it's futuristic WARHAMMER! WOO lol

EDIT: Forgot to answer your off topic opinion. In WAR you will gain exp from killing players. You can either do nothing but PVP and gain exp and level. Or do nothing but PVE and gain exp and level. Or you can do a mix of both. The land is based on this.

Tier 1: 20% PVP / 80% PVE

Tier 2: 40% PVP / 60% PVE

Tier 3: 60% PVP / 40% PVE

Tier 4: 80% PVP / 20% PVE

So as you can see. Tier 1 might emphasis a bit more on PVE. But you can still totally PVP in tier 1. It will still grant you exp that can be used to level and move on to Tier 2. It does require more skill to fight a human player than an AI. Since, you never know what to expect from something that can think on there own (usually :P). Rather than AI that have scripted fights and designed for you to be able to kill them. So it is possible that you will get more EXP from killing players.

Also, the PVE aspect will be public questing. You can do any quest as many times as you want. You will get less exp each time you do it. But it's publicly shared. So you walk over to the quest area, and your quest log will be updated accordingly to others that are doing the very same quest. So you have a quest to kill 340 bores. Say theres 20 ppl working on it. You kill one bore, now you have 1/340. At the same time, 20 other people kill 1 bore each. Your quest log is now at 21/340.

So I would say you will get more EXP from PVP'ing. But I'm uncertain of this. However, in that section that is 80%/20%. I would totally have to say it will give you more. This game is based on PVPing and in order to make sure everyone is PVP'ing they altered the game play. Meaning, they made it so priests are going to be fighting. IE, short range auras so they stay close to their teammates. They will also be giving skills to fight enemies. So, they will probably make PVP more beneficial than PVE'ing. Just to keep everyone on track of what the idea of WAR is supposed to be.

deadpool960 · May 2007

The PvP system in WoW is crap. This game will be focusing more on PvP.

And you do get XP and loot from killing other players.

JulianDracos · May 2007

1. I do not think there is an original thing about WoW. It is just an EQ clone with PvP as an after thought. But, given that WoW is not the gateway drug to the industry I guess people have to think about WoW being the "first" or "best" which is is neither.

2. As has been mentioned, WAR is much more like DAOC than WoW. Except instead of 3 realms there will be 2.

3. You will be able to "win" in WAR. That means you will be able to actually conquer zones and eventually take everything over. At that point things are reset for another war.

4. Yes you can get XP for killing other players. It has been that way in DAOC for awhile.

Servase · May 2007

Actually, don't say you can actually "win" war. If you watched the dev blog videos. Paul specifically says, you can never win war. Since, the war can never end. You can however, let's put it as.. temporarily take control of a city.

macson1983 · May 2007

Wow for the most part is a PVE game, Some real PvP would of made it a nice game. But its like playing games with your friends. Mythic has a strong grasp on how to make good PvP games. Daoc was and example of that, and if WAR is similar to that game in any way. I think people will love it. Its going to def. be worth a try, because its made by mythic.

Kelsonmac · May 2007

Just to add something here . . .

While you get XP and loot for killing other players, the player you kill does not lose any loot. Not sure how they are going to handle this. Perhaps you can loot a certain amount of loot based on the quality of the kill (meaning, how close in level you are to one another) - or - perhaps the moe PVP kills you have, the better the loot will be.

The latter example would be nice, simply because it will encourage the pvp aspect of the game a bit more.

One thing I hope this game shares with WOW is an AH function. So many MMORPG's don't use an AH. To me, it unclutters towns, thereby diminishing any lag.

vajuras · May 2007

Originally posted by bballermc333

Ok I have a question and Im not flaming so please dont just respond wildly, but actually respond with back up details and such.
Ok I have not realy read alot on this game and I have only recently looked into it but to me the game looks like WoW.
The game has RvR, kind of like WoWs Horde vs Alliance. The game is based on PvP which I like but so is WoW pretty much. The classes look pretty cool but I dont want another WoW game were you quest non stop and get stupid rewards like 2 gold.
I played LOTRo and Ive already gotten somewhat bored at level 15, WoW I got extreamly bored at level 27 and leveled my friends 48 for a little but It was the same exact quests as level 27 with different monsters.
I think personally the game looks OK because Warhammer the board game was cool where you paint your own peices and such. I just dont understand why the game is so hyped. LOTRo still is hyped and I think now it is a WoW copy.
Off topic but I personally think that PvP games like this need to give you XP for killing other players. More XP infact than you get from killing monsters. It takes more skill to fight someone with an actual brain that knows when to do what then it does to kill a monster that sits there. Asheron's Call started this but you get like 1,400 xp for a kill and you can get 1,000,000 from a random monster. So I think you should get more XP from killing a player your level or higher then you get from grinding on a Mob of monsters that spawn in one spot and you can cast a few AOE spells or use a few AOE attacks and get a butt load of xp.

I know others covered this but yes you get XP from PvP. You can level 100% from all PvP I dont understand how can this not be a good thing for pvpers. We are not second class citizens in this game like WoW- we can totally progress our toons via pvp

You can take over opposite race captials and occupy it (see vids). In WoW, the NPC guards will chase you out at some point

In WAR, teamsd will be balanced. I know in WoW sometimes teams wont be balanced if they start quitting due to losing. In WAR, quitters etc are replaced by NPCs to make fights balanced

This game has public quest system meaning you'll actually be placed on a team to do certain specail quests

No stealth so unlike WoW you dont need Hunter/Warlock etc to hunt down rogues. cause they wont exist here. This game is actually trying to innovate PvP and move the genre forward

This game was built from ground up for pvp it wont be tacked on. Paul says that every skill u get will have a purpose in PvP is the goal. I think they're currently even looking into Taunt/Fear and testing that in pvp to make sure they make it viable and balanced

KOrnfan4evr · May 2007

War will probably be about the same as WoW, Mythic is sticking with the DAOC design, as wow did (took daoc added new textures and models and some better features) and Mythic will probably do about the same exept probably grow on the PVP alittle more.

It is MY OPINION AND NOT TRYING TO CHANGE ANYONE ELSES that WAR will be a DAOC optimized, redesigned and rebalanced. But with the gameplay about the same.

Kelsonmac · May 2007

I was just told by someone at warhammerconflict.com that loot from pvp will at least partly be from pvp quests.

For example, you might be told to get 20 Greenskin Scalps . . . and the way you get those is by killing Greenskins via PVP. If this is the case, then this could be a very interesting part of the game!

wjrasmussen · May 2007

Originally posted by Kelsonmac

I was just told by someone at warhammerconflict.com that loot from pvp will at least partly be from pvp quests.
For example, you might be told to get 20 Greenskin Scalps . . . and the way you get those is by killing Greenskins via PVP. If this is the case, then this could be a very interesting part of the game!

Isn't that your website?

Kelsonmac · May 2007

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

Originally posted by Kelsonmac

I was just told by someone at warhammerconflict.com that loot from pvp will at least partly be from pvp quests.
For example, you might be told to get 20 Greenskin Scalps . . . and the way you get those is by killing Greenskins via PVP. If this is the case, then this could be a very interesting part of the game!

Isn't that your website?

Yeah, but I had no idea about PVP quests until someone told me. (I'm a newb

)

bballermc333 · May 2007

Thanks guys for the info, I didnt know alot about the game and i am really a PvP player, Oldschool AC and oldschool DAoC and I am hoping that WAR can take me off the Old good PvP games and into a next gen PvP game. Its just that alot of recent games have been really over hyped by myself and i am sure other players as well.

healz4u · May 2007

Honestly, the game does look a lot like World of Warcraft.

I think based on the videos, it not only looks like WoW but has a WoW feel; this is my most serious concern besides too much of a central focus on PvP.

DaBearman · May 2007

Originally posted by healz4u

Honestly, the game does look a lot like World of Warcraft.

I think based on the videos, it not only looks like WoW but has a WoW feel; this is my most serious concern besides too much of a central focus on PvP.

Well I can certainly see your concern with too much of a central focus being put on PvP. As far as the look of the game goes though, aside from the fact that WoW totally ripped off the Warhammer IP and so it has some similar characters, the look is completely different. As for the feel, well I don't ever get a sense that I'm looking at a Saturday morning cartoon when I look at WAR vids, so I can't agree there either.

kraiden · May 2007

Originally posted by healz4u

Honestly, the game does look a lot like World of Warcraft.

Looks like WoW?

I guess these are both dwarves.... sorta.

same look and feel?

DaBearman · May 2007

heh, that WoW Orc looks like Crusty The Clown.

strongaxe · May 2007

Ok heres my 2cents.

War will be like WoW in the following aspect.

1.) WIll sometimes be a grind. WoW pvp is a grind everyone knows that and so will WAR to an extent. I believe this becuase any level game has a grind whether ur leveling by killing ppl or npc. Also with little consequence placed Mythic is encouraging a grind type pvp experience.

2.)Auto attack, auto aim, same as WoW.

3.) Classes will have a similar feel.

4.) After a while pvp will feel meaningless. You can only capture the other cities and have it reset so many times before it loses its appeal right?

5.) Gear will be important, as is the nature with level based, restictive games.

But WAR pvp will be funner than WoW hopefully. Atleast it will be fun for a few months eh?

FreddyNoNose · May 2007

Originally posted by strongaxe

Ok heres my 2cents.
War will be like WoW in the following aspect.
1.) WIll sometimes be a grind. WoW pvp is a grind everyone knows that and so will WAR to an extent. I believe this becuase any level game has a grind whether ur leveling by killing ppl or npc. Also with little consequence placed Mythic is encouraging a grind type pvp experience.
2.)Auto attack, auto aim, same as WoW.
3.) Classes will have a similar feel.
4.) After a while pvp will feel meaningless. You can only capture the other cities and have it reset so many times before it loses its appeal right?
5.) Gear will be important, as is the nature with level based, restictive games.
But WAR pvp will be funner than WoW hopefully. Atleast it will be fun for a few months eh?

But to say War is like Wow in some aspect, that aspect would have to not appeared in a game prior to Wow.

1) Grind: existed in many games before wow.

2) auto attack: existed before wow.

3) Classes are based in history of RPGS in games like DnD which itself was based off fantasy stories.

4) many things in life lose appeal. Nothing new to wow for certain.

5) Wow didn't originate power gear. If you don't consider DND, then Dave Hargrave's Arduin was a power game with Uber weapons back in the 70's.

So not one single thing you listed is original to Wow. Therefore, War isn't taking it from wow. It would also be the case that Wow borrowed from other things which came before it. Is wow you only mmo?

kraiden · May 2007

Originally posted by strongaxe

Ok heres my 2cents.
War will be like WoW in the following aspect.
1.) WIll sometimes be a grind. WoW pvp is a grind everyone knows that and so will WAR to an extent. I believe this becuase any level game has a grind whether ur leveling by killing ppl or npc. Also with little consequence placed Mythic is encouraging a grind type pvp experience.
Will not be a grind, there are only 4 tiers insted of 70 levels. Mythic devs said their focus is on keeping players playing their game to make money and not making them play more. DAoC was their first big mmo and they focused on keeping players around for LONG term and not burning them out with grinds for the short term. The PvP which is RvR is not a grind. Grind is taken out of a game once you take away gear progression. The reason why we PvP in wow is to get the rep we need to finally gain points to get ....more gear. Whatever gets people the most rep and honor will motivate them for pvp. This is why you have people who dont even fight and log into Alterac valley battle ground and turn on their mods to keep them afk for entire days while queing up again. In DAoC and in WAR. there is no gear grind and no vast seperation by gear. You kill people for the sake of being number 1 on the leader boards which are updated daily with statistics. If you need gear to progree you wouldnt like this game and thus wouldnt play, I know it sounds hard for people whose first game was WoW to belive but not all games have to be like WoW and have grind raids and rep to be an Mmorpg.
2.)Auto attack, auto aim, same as WoW.
I guess so, but we had auto attack and aim in daoc as well.
3.) Classes will have a similar feel.
I have played wow.... I have played WAR (which few people have ) and I am saying here. They do NOT feel the same. The worlds do not feel similar. The happy go lucky gnome mage with a smile on his face bunny hopping around casting insta spells while wearing bright orange colored robes.... ya he dosent exist. Spells are stand to cast, everyone is wartorn and haggard looking, the whole world has a rustic feel nothing is cute. You cant bunny hop and circle straife... unless you want to auto miss because of it, and you cant move through your opponents so that takes away your circle straife and bunny hop anyway. Tanks melee.... but then again so do casters, does your gnome mage melee? can your gnome mage spec higher in weapon and deal more damage and gain special magical attacks with his staff??? Can you take over cities in wow? can you use siege?
4.) After a while pvp will feel meaningless. You can only capture the other cities and have it reset so many times before it loses its appeal right?
Nope. Im going to direct you here
http://www.camelotherald.com/index.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daoc

To show you. This game was active from Oct 10th 2001 and did not add new pvp content until June 22, 2004 if you do things the right way and make them ballanced and enjoyable, the people who fit that playstyle will never get bored with it. Actually, it is the opinion of some people, that mythic added "too much" new content and changed the RvR by adding the new map so much.. thats actually what caused the games demise. Not mechanics, not balance between the 3 realms, not plot holes or lack of fun... just too many changes at one time. Face it,going to football practice and hitting the tackle dummy gets old and boring when you have to hit the same dummy every day. but not many people actually get tired of being in a live game against actual people because of the thrill of competition. This is my comparison to pvp and pve combat, playing against players when your in competition to be #1. will never get boring.
5.) Gear will be important, as is the nature with level based, restictive games.
There is no gear gap.infact, daoc had a STAT CAP. The first day the game opened in 2001 the strongest weapon in the game was 16.5 dps. Today, 6 years later, the strongest weapon in the game is.............. 16.5 dps. you can sit down and start crafting for 3 weeks and get your skill high enough to make this weapon. TO level your skill up you buy materials from NPC's in town, there are no special quests you have to go on, or rare drops you have to gather just to craft, you just do it. So if any player in the game can make the best weapons in the game dosent this take away from gear being important? and even if you find an item that has more stats in it than the next persons item, you still have the stat cap to deal with as your stats cant go above a certain level. Its not the nature of level based games.... its just the nature fo world of warcraft.
But WAR pvp will be funner than WoW hopefully. Atleast it will be fun for a few months eh?
It depends on your playstyle. I do not think raid oriented players would like warhammer. I do not think ex EQ players who covet high amount of pve only content would like it either. its also a very hard game to play with alot of special skills with special requirements. Lots of counters and counters to counters, which adds tactics and planning to fights and wars thus making it not appealing to people who are very short attention spanned.

kraiden · May 2007

Originally posted by DaBearman

heh, that WoW Orc looks like Crusty The Clown.

Hey I never said which one was WoW and which one was WAR. These games both look similar so you are "obviously" very confused as to which one is which............. right?

Bigfoot · May 2007

Very good posts, kraiden. I get tired of people saying that WARs graphics look exactly the same as WoW. I'm not attacking healz4u or anything, because many others have said it in different places.

Being an ex-DAoC player, I can definitely say that trying to take keeps over and over again in DAoC never really got old. Since they could provide bonuses to your realm, and a better opportunity to farm other players, taking keeps is something everyone wanted to do.

I really hope WAR is very successful because I really enjoyed myself with DAoC for years, especially the pvp.

Jetrpg · May 2007

Originally posted by strongaxe

Ok heres my 2cents.
War will be like WoW in the following aspect.
1.) WIll sometimes be a grind. WoW pvp is a grind everyone knows that and so will WAR to an extent. I believe this becuase any level game has a grind whether ur leveling by killing ppl or npc. Also with little consequence placed Mythic is encouraging a grind type pvp experience.
2.)Auto attack, auto aim, same as WoW.
3.) Classes will have a similar feel.
4.) After a while pvp will feel meaningless. You can only capture the other cities and have it reset so many times before it loses its appeal right?
5.) Gear will be important, as is the nature with level based, restictive games.
But WAR pvp will be funner than WoW hopefully. Atleast it will be fun for a few months eh?

Yeah this is an uninformed opinion.

1) it may be a grind but i seriously doubt it the goal of WAR is to experience end game (rvr) from tier 0.0 to tier 40.

2) Is this a joke? - look at the class skills so far besides aa (which has been in games for well way over 15 years) . They are much more like daoc skills. ie they require timing and skill to use ... ie you can't just spam many of them. Like the black orc style has one where you have to use one move after another or choppers have back or side style with follwoing style off that (styles = melee attack).

3) AS in your a tank/hitter .. as in your a caster... as in your a warrior from d&d 25 + years ago ? I mean come on , as for the classes there 24 figure it out thats more than wow has and its been out for a long time... and while soem classes are similar others are quite different ... engineer a dwarf class really doesn't have a similar form in chaos its its not like they copied 4 classes and change a little bit and put them on 6 different races... they are Different classes.. healer shows this best ... greenskins shamans are nuker/healers, chaos zealots are nuker/healer/melee hybrides , empires (human) warrior priest is a melee/healer. They all function differently. While it is true they all have group and single heals how they GET to use them is different. Some use Action points (a mana and stamina/end stat ie a power bar for basic moves [magic or melee]) others use specific power bars (shamans have Waag, warrior priest have fury, i don't know what or if zealots have anything.. ) You may say its the same thing... but so far confirmed is the grudge bar for iron breakers (dwarfs) and the "rage" for choppas (greeenskin) (ps choppas are the light tank and IBs are the heavy) are gained thought very differnt methods. The Black orc (the counter part to iron breakers) use a "builder" or "combo" system (that is similar to rouge in wow .. once again not the first time its been seen) where they atack with certain attacks that are "builders" and using those attacks allows a different attack to be used "finisher" some finishers require more than one builder some that only require a single get their effectiveness increased with more. On top of this there is the moral and tactic systems

So basicaly within classes of 2 (and for sure 3) of the six races of WAR there is more class diversity than in all of WoW...

4) But you are rewarded for pvp .. but i agree that it will get boring i mean there is not a mmo out there that does not get repeditive. However, when comparing DAoc to WoW you can RVR about 20 times longer without the bordum. BAnd i think WAR will do this aspect even better. (Becuase DAOC pv happen in the same places over and over [ganted its larger than wows]).

5) Doubt it they think they may have 2 pve end game dungeons ... 2 why for one its an rvr game .. and 2 you don't need to do them for equipment. DAoc most armor a toon wears is player made. Not saying that WAr will have as much player made equipment ... but Mythic has released one x-pack that was a "raid" pve focused and it was the games downfall .. you know why ... simple people who have tasted rvr don't want to spend days and days and weeks and weeks raiding for equipment its simply not fun or challenging.

A few months? if ya make it to about 12 you may seen a new x-pack ... as mythic is in love with them ... i think they should use less tho ... becuase i am already paying 15 a month no need to pay another 30-40.

Still the wonder of daoc and WAr Is that you can make alts... and there are 3 ENTIRELY different battle fronts each with different content (for allies on the SAme side ) Also there is another side that share much content but differs to a degree... Still the real impostant factor is the Different classes. You eb able to make more than one type of nuker.. or healer or main tank or light tank or ranged unit.

DaBearman · May 2007

Originally posted by kraiden

Originally posted by DaBearman

heh, that WoW Orc looks like Crusty The Clown.

Hey I never said which one was WoW and which one was WAR. These games both look similar so you are "obviously" very confused as to which one is which............. right?

Uhhh ....oh ya....riiiiiight.

Death1942 · May 2007

The game has RvR, kind of like WoWs Horde vs Alliance. The game is based on PvP which I like but so is WoW pretty much. The classes look pretty cool but I dont want another WoW game were you quest non stop and get stupid rewards like 2 gold.

i am sorry but that my friend is the biggest stuff up any WoW player could EVER say. WoW is NOT based on pvp at all. that line suggests you are a PvP freak/fanatic of WoW and i hate em personally

but hey you can always change my opinion of you by not posting such a silly post

Unknown · May 2007

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