[*]Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because something hasn't been done right yet, doesn't mean that it can't be done.
At the same time, it's impossible to prove a negative, so this is really just a cop-out. The 'open, full-loot PVP' crowd can't even adequately explain what such a game 'done right' would look like, or what they think was done wrong in the old games. Pretty much all I ever hear is either 'pre-trammel UO in 3D' or something that drastically waters down the 'open pvp' and 'full loot' portion of the ruleset.
[*]Players will, given the choice, take the easy path.
Right, like camping gates/zones/flight points, wearing a PVP specialized setup to attack someone in a PVE specialized setup, attacking players who have less skills/levels, attacking players in worse gear, attacking with a large group against a small group, ambushing someone who's in the middle of PVE, and so on. The 'hardcore' PVPers are the ones who do the most taking of the easy path.
Most people don't want to lose their stuff over and over in these sorts of situations, which is why they avoid the 'hardcore' PVP games. If you're not lootable, you don't have to go grind back your stuff after a fight, you don't lose the fruits of your mining (or other PVE pursuit) if you get jumped, and so on. And real PVPers (as opposed to the guys who just want to gank) want to seek out challenging fights, which gank-and-loot PVP actively discourages by punishing players for losing a fight.
What it comes down to is the 'hardcore' PVP crowd wants victims, and most people don't care to pay money to be someone else's victim.
In regards to the former: Yes, you're right, it is something of a copout, but it's still true. There haven't been that many attempts at "hardcore PvP" made. As for my personal views on how to handle the situation.. well, for one, narrow the power scope a hell of a lot, so that an experienced PvPer isn't twenty times as powerful as a newbie. Secondly, implement reasonable consequences for being a criminal. Finally, a lot of little things. Make it possible to run away from fights without a 90% assured death rate. Make living within the scope of the law have reasonable benefits as opposed to drawbacks. Slow down combat so that a person who gets attacked isn't dead before he even knows what's going on.
I'd go on, but it's a topic in and of itself. PvP isn't something you can just "slot in". You have to balance around it, you have to build your game mechanics and your world around it. Has to be designed from the ground up.
As for the second point, I was primarily trying to point out the short-sightedness of giving people a choice of servers, seeing them flock to the non-PvP ones, and then crying "Look, look, you see! There's no demand for PvP!" Not everybody wants victims. A lot of people do, but it's really not that simple. The benefits of a world where you're not incapable of punching somebody else in the face are many. I'll make a list if you really want, but even if I did, it wouldn't matter.
That is exactly what I think of when I think of the perfect PvP game.
However, that IS what Ultima Online was when factions was first introduced, and Pre:R before Trammel was introduced.
However, pretty much EVERYTHING else you mentioned is right there in Ultima. You don't believe me? Play it yourself, and you will most certainly find out.
[*]Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Just because something hasn't been done right yet, doesn't mean that it can't be done.
At the same time, it's impossible to prove a negative, so this is really just a cop-out. The 'open, full-loot PVP' crowd can't even adequately explain what such a game 'done right' would look like, or what they think was done wrong in the old games. Pretty much all I ever hear is either 'pre-trammel UO in 3D' or something that drastically waters down the 'open pvp' and 'full loot' portion of the ruleset.
[*]Players will, given the choice, take the easy path.
Right, like camping gates/zones/flight points, wearing a PVP specialized setup to attack someone in a PVE specialized setup, attacking players who have less skills/levels, attacking players in worse gear, attacking with a large group against a small group, ambushing someone who's in the middle of PVE, and so on. The 'hardcore' PVPers are the ones who do the most taking of the easy path.
Most people don't want to lose their stuff over and over in these sorts of situations, which is why they avoid the 'hardcore' PVP games. If you're not lootable, you don't have to go grind back your stuff after a fight, you don't lose the fruits of your mining (or other PVE pursuit) if you get jumped, and so on. And real PVPers (as opposed to the guys who just want to gank) want to seek out challenging fights, which gank-and-loot PVP actively discourages by punishing players for losing a fight.
What it comes down to is the 'hardcore' PVP crowd wants victims, and most people don't care to pay money to be someone else's victim.
you're talking bout games just not even designed right,. I'm playing a hardcore Full PvP MMO right now this does not happen. If you gank a lowbie the lowbie gets to keep his stuff because hes still learning. There are no levels, so ev1 hasd fighting chance. other day a 'shark' (experienced pvper) attacked my newb ship I did just fine and lived. You're talking bout bad games from like 10+ yrs ago or something just not designed right
Camp a gate? Then why cant the victim fly right back through it? Why not give them spawn protection? FPS games have that why is this an issue takes a programmer 1 min to fix. In the game I play was made on a SMALL budget and I can fly right back through a gate jsut fine. everything is instant and seamless.
Attacking a lowbie nets me nothing! I get no rewards. I only get rewards for taking dfown a fellow shark that has something worth taking.
It's all playr skill. no levels. just raw skill and ability to pilot your craft (and its not EvE)
Like I tried to explain to you before- to no avail- its about risk vs reward. When I attack an enemy from another corp and he loses his ship I just won a big victory for -my- guild. Now they have one less ship. When I takeover their land- that's less money and resources they own
no offense but you only focus on the negatives.
It's a Player run content we speak of! of course some bully will take your lunch money lol I'm not denying that but stop bringing on points from games just not designed right
edit- guys he's just baiting us. no matter what we post he will find fault. best not to entertain him. maybe this whole thread jsut flamebait by pve'ers
I was not implying that all PvPers are griefers. I was implying that a large number of PvPers are griefers.
what game are you talking bout? in the hardcore FFA pvp game I play I only gotten attacked once or twice out of all the players that assist me or fly right by me- which is many. im not denying such a thing can happen to you but really that sounds like a game that has no risk vs reward or has levels (vertical progression) so newbies defenseless or newbies can be looted. which is just nutty all of that
well designed full pvp loot games escape all that cause ganking a noob yields no loot. they keep their loot and respawn. onyl worth it to gank vets that have the good ships and owns land/resources worth taking.
<edit - bah this post about UO, a game madfe like 10+ years ago and people picking on it still amazing as if other devs cant implement improvements to an old model>
I'm curious as to what game you play.... sounds solid and worth playing.
I play Starport, a 2D MMO made by former UO devs. was something they cranked out on a small budget obviously but the design blows away most any other MMO out the water.
There's no levels. Servers are up for 2 weeks on the one I play. thats right we get wiped once someone "wins" the universe
you can own colonies and gain xp. but this is the catch. The xp is not for grinding levels. there are no skills but the "A" game you bring with you.
ramp up is short because everyone starts at same time. so everyone's a noob at the begining and the whole community levels together. nice, tight community whjere you can imapct the world. I take what I want and work for it if I desire
I have yet to kill a single NPC for xp. there is no levels here anyway but xp determines who wins.
players lose xp for getting smoked.
You can discover entire planets and colonize them. you better put up some defenses cause guess what everything is 100% persistant. yep, if you logout in a bad place you can get capped. cause your ship is truly persistant
The entire game world is. my colonists are persistant and spaceports can be robbed.
if this thing had a bigger budget it would smoke the upcoming grind games. but the Devs refused the mainstream contract because he wanted full control. He did not want Starport to become a grindfest like these other MMOs
one of the best MMOs I've ever played
solid game design, flawless for hardcore pvp. these devs poured their souls into this and did it for love. not for the paychecks cause they knew sucha brutal world would never appeal to the non-violent lol. but ironically I see more pve'er / pacifists then anyone cause its a world they directly impact and they can win this universe just like the violent warrior can
If this thing was 3D and had a bigger budget it would be even more popular
<edit- sry I got some facts wrong here but you get the gist of it>
1. I will explain what most FFA pvpers want in a game. A combat system based on player skill. I would go twitch but, there are other ways. Ideally, skills would modify player skill by making your swing more likely to go where you aimed it. Kinda like building hand eye coordination for your character since you can't simulate that through controls.
Ok, maybe you're right that most FFA pvp'rs want twitch skills, but I don't fall into most. I can't, nor do I want to, develop the hand-eye coordination of a 14-yr-old. Twitch skill FFA pvp attracts a younger pvp, whom I don't want to play with anyway for other reasons. I want my pvp based on calculators, and with no need for "bunny hopping" all over the place to get your opponent to miss a couple times. I don't mind complex choices of tactics, but I want those tactics queu'd up for calculated execution. If a thief gets behind me for a backstab, its because his skill calculator allowed it, and not because I failed to scramble around with the movement keys trying to keep him in front me. YUCK!
1. Crappy combat, based on dueling calculators instead of player skill. The higher level wins or person with better gear. This is really the main thing. It is what I thought was the biggest problem in AC and Shadowbane and to a much lesser extent in UO. I would excuse UO though since it was to a lesser extent and it was the first of its' kind.
AC was the biggest twitch pvp game of all time. If you had to rate it on a scale of 1-10 it would hit a least a 9 in the twitch department. I played AC Darktide for 2 1/2 years. So I don't understand what your take on AC1.... or are you talking about AC2? Now that was skill calculated, and I loved it. Shadowbane was definately more skill calculated, and I LOVED it also. UO basically got twitchy when it turned into a chase fight.
So there are two niches for FFA PvP... to twitch and not to twitch.
2. Shadowbane (failed)
Shadowbane didn't fail based on the sole fact that it was FFA PvP. Shadowbane failed because...
... because the devs were too slow to fix bugs.
... because the devs were too slow to fix exploits.
... because the devs were too slow to implement improvements.
... because the devs were so slow they abandoned improvements.
... because the devs were too slow to add expansions.
... because the devs were too slow to eliminate point & click movement (they're still thinking that one through)
Is UO Siege Perilous still going? I enjoyed it.
AO - Rimor - 43 Solitus Soldier Played - UO AC1 AC2 SWG SB PS DAoC Eve GW EQ2 WoW
Originally posted by vajuras you're talking bout games just not even designed right,. You're talking bout bad games from like 10+ yrs ago or something just not designed right Camp a gate? Then why cant the victim fly right back through it?
EVE is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, it's not a game from 10 years ago, and no you can't fly right back through a gate. I'd go into more detail, but if everyone who disagrees with you is trolling, and people who comment on words that you post are trolling, there's really not much point in trying to hold a reasonable conversation.
Like I tried to explain to you before-
Actually, what you did before was accuse me of 'trolling' for responding directly to what you wrote. You said that people complaining about being destroyed as newbs were "whining", then switched over to the 'poorly designed' track you're taking now.
edit- guys he's just baiting us. no matter what we post he will find fault.
In other words: If someone disagrees with you, they must be trolling, no one could ever have a different opinion! And if someone finds faults in your posts, it has nothing to do with your posts having a fault, they're just trolling!
I don't know where you guys get your numbers about tons of people leaving because of only having fel. According to www.mmogchart.com there never was a mass cancelling of accounts. The chart shows there were level offs but, still increasing until trammel came out. Which appears to be the first time the numbers start to decrease.
I guess I don't really have anything to add just correcting some of your guys' mistakes. A FFA pvp game done right is so hard to explain because it can take on many many forms just like any art form. I can give you what I would make though.
Let me just take the time to correct quickly one of your mistakes.
UO:Ren released April 3rd 2000.
Following the chart that you linked, they had about 150,000 subscribers in January of that year, and that number continued to RISE for 19 months until July of '01, when there was a slight downward trend (looks like 5-10k subscribers) that carried until July of '03. So please, next time you make a claim like Trammel releasing was the first downward trend, make sure that the link you give supports your point, and in fact, yours does not. In fact there was not a downward trend in subscriptions for 15 months AFTER the release of UO:R, and in fact the first trend was after the NEXT release.
The first downward trend happened after the release of UO: Third Dawn in March, 2001.
A. Change the ruleset allowing players to avoid PvP entirely (Ultima Online)
B. Fail (Shadowbane)
....
gotta love it when someone says a game fails because it had open pvp. I could point to countless all PvE games and said they fail due to no hardcore pvp but we have one hardcore MMO that goes outta business because it was made by broke devs to begin with and people try to keep using it as their reasoning years and years later. nice, but only your fellow PvE'ers will fall for this (which are many though I give u that)
you're talking bout games just not even designed right,. You're talking bout bad games from like 10+ yrs ago or something just not designed right Camp a gate? Then why cant the victim fly right back through it?
EVE is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, it's not a game from 10 years ago, and no you can't fly right back through a gate....
then EvE pvp is broken that simple. I stopped reading this post right here.
all you can do is bring up EvE which is a game that caters to pve'ers (allows farming in safe zones). Starport resolved this like many other real pvp games and Starport was made by like handful of devs and they f2p. so if they can get it right then why not CCP? How can it be such a hard issue to fix that obviously breaks pvp and makes it so I can be exploited? It's -NOT-. Real pvp games fix that its a non-issue
I dont play EvE but that sounds hella broke to me.
An old UO vet here, my residence was always in Felucca and did most of my playing there. My GF who was not very good at pvp also resided there. We had great fun there. The nice thing about UO, you could run around all day with standard blacksmith made stuff and be completely competitive. So if you died, your stuff was easily replaced. What killed UO was the Age of Shadows expansion, it introduced the fancy weapons, and made it an equipment game instead of a skill game.
Problem with most of these open pvp games, they have to have fancy equipment which unbalances the pvp, it becomes an equipment fest instead of a skill fest.
I play Eve now and it is not perfect, but I still have fun. It has problems, but it is the best at the moment for open pvp. Problem with Eve, the aggressor as a significant edge over the defender. There are significant holes in their code that the agressors exploit. Say for example an ore thief comes up and steals something from a group mate, that thief is only flagged to the person they stole from, if i were to attack him i would be killed by the local police, Concord. So the pvp is not balanced well at all, some of the rules are basically unfair. You just have to recognize there will be jerks and it is best just to ignore them if you can.
I laugh at the Darkfall fanboys, the game has been in production so long half the devs are working out of coffins.
really, If I wanted PVE I would play single player games, They are much better than MMO (PVE wise), I can see the reason that many people are scared of PVP, But The day that you experience a real Nice battle (50 vs 50), there is noting even close to that feeling in games.
Just thought I'd weigh in on the whole, "most people who pk don't gank or kill lowbies," thing. IMO that is a complete farce, and totally devoid of what is really happening. My pvp experience is not extensive, limited to CoX, WoW and EQ, and truthfully I tend to suck at it. I tend to get killed a lot, but something I have repeatedly noticed is...
Most of the people killing me are much, much, much higher level than me. I can probably count on one hand the number of people within 5 - 10 levels that have killed me. Not because they couldn't (I allready said I suck at pvp) but because, I can only assume they viewed it as too risky. By far the majority of killings are done by people who are much higher level.
Well since most of the people killed are killed by people of much higher level, and people of similar level avoid the fights, this tends to imply that it is more than a few who enjoy ganking lowbies, in fact it tends to imply that it is the majority of people who pk that do gank and kill lowbies.
Now if it was a minority than the numbers of death due to gankers would be less, but we as carebears have not noticed this, we have noticed that we tend to repeatedly get killed by people who as I said are much higher in level (or skill if your a skill based game becuase for the most part skills and levels are really just semantics). Repeatedly getting killed tends to interfere with our sense of accomplishments in a game, making the game less enjoygable. And since the point of a game is fun we then find a game that is more enjoyable.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Just thought I'd weigh in on the whole, "most people who pk don't gank or kill lowbies," thing. IMO that is a complete farce, and totally devoid of what is really happening. My pvp experience is not extensive, limited to CoX, WoW and EQ, and truthfully I tend to suck at it. I tend to get killed a lot, but something I have repeatedly noticed is... Most of the people killing me are much, much, much higher level than me. I can probably count on one hand the number of people within 5 - 10 levels that have killed me. Not because they couldn't (I allready said I suck at pvp) but because, I can only assume they viewed it as too risky. By far the majority of killings are done by people who are much higher level. Well since most of the people killed are killed by people of much higher level, and people of similar level avoid the fights, this tends to imply that it is more than a few who enjoy ganking lowbies, in fact it tends to imply that it is the majority of people who pk that do gank and kill lowbies. Now if it was a minority than the numbers of death due to gankers would be less, but we as carebears have not noticed this, we have noticed that we tend to repeatedly get killed by people who as I said are much higher in level (or skill if your a skill based game becuase for the most part skills and levels are really just semantics). Repeatedly getting killed tends to interfere with our sense of accomplishments in a game, making the game less enjoygable. And since the point of a game is fun we then find a game that is more enjoyable. Venge Sunsoar
please at least try to mention non-level based grinds which suck at pvp anyway. none of my posts deal with level based grinders.
Cute story but overaggerated. I can tell you didnt play City of Heroes long. You cant be ganked in CoX lol. I know I have reached level cap in that game. -ALL- the pvp zones technically autolevel you to level cap. So, if u enter siren's call you get autoleveled to 30. How cvan you get ganked 1v1 by a higher lvl? Please enlighten me its impossible.
In WoW post-battlegrounds / arena everyone hits those instances for the high lvl honor rewards. ev1 knows open pvp practically dead in WoW. I just took a poll a few days ago some others voted that. how can you bring up WoW all u gotta do is hit the angel and go farm somewhere else. go farm an instance dungeon wit all the rest of the farmers. farm to your hearts content in 100% safety even on the PvP servers.
I thought we were at least talking pvp games where u have something to lose when you die. not level grinders like WoW when all u have is hurt pride. and cant blame a higher lvl for messing you up if you wont even hit the angel. although granted, WoW is really sucky for pvp. I'd say Guild Wars much, much better for pvp if you gonna go all instanced, casul pvp. but none of these games you listed hardcore pvp.
of course people will take your lunch money given the chance especially loot whoring games like WoW where gear >>>>>> noobs
I've always felt that the "area" model for PvP/PvE is the one that will work for larger audiences. Be it Felluca (UO), Ground Zero (Auto Assault), Ettenmoors (LotRO), non-Empire & low sec (EVE) or DAoC's RvR areas, I think that's the only way a game can integrate a more full PvP with a large market. If you want a large market AND full PvP, you just can't have it open everywhere. Most folks WILL avoid the PvP if possible. I think you want their money still, so avoiding PvP means clearly delineated spaces where you don't have it. You'd much rather that than have them take their money to a different game altogether.
UO tried to make full pvp the norm when they started. Apparently, a large enough population of players abused the system to the point where they weren't going to get the audience they wanted/needed to succeed. So, they went to the Trammel/Fel system in an attempt to give the PvPers a haven and the Carebears could enjoy the game. And the game succeeded, obviously.
The key for developers is to make the area or RvR type stuf have enough rewards to draw in the folks who aren't really into PvP. SWG tried with the player-made bases, but the implementation was bad and the rewards not that good. It was mainly for atmosphere. UO actually does reward Fel players, both with better resource yields AND with the champ spawns which only drop certain items in Fel, not in the Tram equivalents. In neither case was the reward enough. Nor was AO's tower battles, though losing your tower bonuses DOES hurt a bit more. And the idea of balancing the levels available in the battle around the towers is a good one. However, the permanent 4-hr PvP flag you gain is a detriment because you're then open to the griefers everywhere without death removing the flag, so a lot of folks stay out of the fray. I enjoy the AA PvP both because of the rewards AND because of its known limit to hi level folks. The RISK part, however, isn't there since there's no DP at all. This is a GOOD thing for drawing in carebears like myself, and it's a lot more fun for me to PvP without a DP, but I know it's not realistic risk/reward. LotRO provides the Ettenmoors just so folks can PvP. It's not really integral to the game, and doesn't fit with the genre since we're all supposed to be on the same side in Tolkein's world. EVE and DAoC seem to have succeeded the best so far at juggling the balancing act.
But in the end, there wouldn't have been a division if players had controlled themselves. To this day, trying Siege Perilous is impossible because you can't even get out of a newbie city without some bored hi-level mage griefing you at the moongate and looting your 2 pickaxes and the 5 herbs you picked off the ground on the way to the moongate. They just cannot seem to control themselves, and that will make people flock to other games in a hurry.
-- Xix "I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
guys if we let pve'ers farm in complete safety then they will come to our pvp zones and totally rip our butts apart. Why? cause they farming in 100% safety. there can be no compromises here, either we get full 100% pvp with looting or its just not hardcore open pvp. if you let ppl farm then the warriors will have to farm just to be competitive. I say screw that I'm taking what I want. not paying $15 a month for some FPS pvp with uber grind
good thoughtful posts but no. we cant have instances for pve'ers to farm in 100% safety then walk into our zones and just own us. If you want to be profitable then do what asian MMOs do. put the casual pvpers/pve'ers on their own server. put the hardcore pvpers on their own server (think Rappelz did this).
works just fine for Starport. works fine for asian MMOs. that way if they want a hardcore experience after casual pvp with 0 impact then let them reroll. but cant let them transfer from PvE ---> PvP either.
As far as i can view it , Guild wars and most Likely Warhammer Online are the way togo.
Defenitly a challenge to make an appelaing for all pvpve. AION seems to claim it also.
Lets see what comes upon us these months ad AION opens in korea to beta June 20 i think and warhammer seems also to get beta in june... Some drops should come our way i hope...
<edit not directed at nice guy above me but these topics get my blood pressure boiling >
See its so funny this entire thread about Trammel which surely ruined UO pvp. Let people farm in complete safety you're catering to pure grind. You make your entire game PvE driven just by giving farmers instances
Without farming why the hell would u farm for hrs and hrs and hrs for uber loot? You wont cause u know you might lose it. so u dont put on what u know good and well youre gonna just lose it in your first fight. so put on junk and go pvp. but then u jsut made pvp meaningless when before you'd put on that good armor perhaps cause maybe u just looted it. maybe because u know theres many others wearing the good stuff!
if pvp is safe (no looting) then hell why not just go buy some account from a farmer? If there is no risk then that means sooner or later im a get good and I dont have to give up my loot that I -never- earned. it is not always this way but in games like WoW where u get honor/rep well hell i saw ppl just go AFK day after day and hit Warlord. they didnt earn it and got no respect in these bad situations. not always this way but that was a general consesnus among many
safe zones ruin hardcore open pvp period. pve'er/farmer (they are synomous to me they are the samething)- will surely ruin pvp. They will get the uber gear. they will. PvE'ers burn content in like a mere hours that takes game developers months and months to make. So they must make PvE'ers grind because pve in its current state is hella repetitive in MMOs.
Pvpers create dynamic content for each other. PvE'ers consume content. thus we get more grind and uber lootz cause of the pve'er that will get bored and quit cause of lack of progression. unlike pvpers they dont create dynamic experiences for each other.
And they wont come to the pvp zones and lose it. And even if they this nutty they gonna come with major backup of fellow 'ubers' and own all the hardocore pvpers and take them to school. because us hardcore pvpers are notorious for hating PvE grind so we can only hope to get the gear from an uber guildie that farms content til their fingers bleed
but that wont happen because uber guild will reduce their risks and run in huge packs.
Absolutely correct on all of the above. But that's kinda the point. The hardcore audience just isn't big enough to support the massive amounts of cash the companies want to make. There's GOT to be compromise to bring in all those "casual" or "carebear" or whatever label you want dollars. Yes, Lineage II is a good game as far as I can tell, but the numbers of players are low compared to what a full-blown MMO producer wants to see these days. So there has GOT to be compromise.
And, yes, with full-loot, open FFA PvP, I AM gonna wear my garbage gear when I go around unless it's with a whole pack of folks along with me. No other way around it. If the point of PvP is to just take other people's stuf, then you won't see a major game that allows that. Niche, maybe. But not full-blown.
Have to find a way to give PvP a POINT more than just taking other people's stuf. One way is to have NO loot-drop gear, like pre-CU SWG. You want something uber, some other PLAYER has to MAKE it for you, so you may need to gather him/her up some resources or components to GET that uber gear. But a game where you can just take from your opponent at will is not going to garner any kind of market share these days, no matter what the franchise or how good it is.
Give ideas on how to make PvP meaningful, and you might spark some thought. Just open, I pwn'd joo, gimme your stuf PvP is NOT going to happen on a large scale anymore.
-- Xix "I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
Lineage II makes like has 75% NCSoft revenues versus City of Heroes (9%) and way more then Guild wars (14%). like those games are spit compared to the income Lineage 2 wheels in. Its a sick fortune its in the NCSoft public statements.
The market is there
Think bout it- GW is overseas too. so dont say its cause L2 is overseas cause so is Guild Wars. but L2 is 75% NCSoft market share GW is 14% and CoX is 9% if memory serves me correctly. this all numbers still fresh on my mind
How can hardcore pvp not have meaning when we fight over land we can own? I kill one of your guildies and I destroy his ship. Hes back in a newbie boat. this is how meaningful pvp goes- you fight and fight til there's nothing but rubble. And its intense because the entire game world is changing and getting bent to your will. PVP has meaning and there is no endless grind from uber loot. pvp in itself entertains players. cast away your doubts I know this model works it already has. it did with UO pre-trammel already. over 150k subs is a success look at City of Heroes its been hovering around 150k since launch. still here.
Sure, noobs will get ganked and get their lunch taken. I'm not denying that. They'll either get smart, reduce their risk, and join a guild or get chased to the newbie servers. Thats the point. It's about dominance. winning. Survivors own the world and the others scram. which is why Starport resets cause they know in enough time someone will dominate completely. This is why we dont see player run content, that simple
people wanna hate on UO but whats funny former UO Devs that didnt relocate to EA North are in Austin making your favorite MMOs and running the big companies. Hell who do you think gonna be help working on Bioware MMO? Austin dEvs! They're spread across the nation and enslaved working on static MMOs designed for farmers
bah so all I want to do is grief young players give me a break. I want to fight real competition and wage epic wars. sure, young players will surely get killed unless they join an association. The weak are solo players. The strong reduce their risk and team
Comments
At the same time, it's impossible to prove a negative, so this is really just a cop-out. The 'open, full-loot PVP' crowd can't even adequately explain what such a game 'done right' would look like, or what they think was done wrong in the old games. Pretty much all I ever hear is either 'pre-trammel UO in 3D' or something that drastically waters down the 'open pvp' and 'full loot' portion of the ruleset.
Right, like camping gates/zones/flight points, wearing a PVP specialized setup to attack someone in a PVE specialized setup, attacking players who have less skills/levels, attacking players in worse gear, attacking with a large group against a small group, ambushing someone who's in the middle of PVE, and so on. The 'hardcore' PVPers are the ones who do the most taking of the easy path.
Most people don't want to lose their stuff over and over in these sorts of situations, which is why they avoid the 'hardcore' PVP games. If you're not lootable, you don't have to go grind back your stuff after a fight, you don't lose the fruits of your mining (or other PVE pursuit) if you get jumped, and so on. And real PVPers (as opposed to the guys who just want to gank) want to seek out challenging fights, which gank-and-loot PVP actively discourages by punishing players for losing a fight.
What it comes down to is the 'hardcore' PVP crowd wants victims, and most people don't care to pay money to be someone else's victim.
In regards to the former: Yes, you're right, it is something of a copout, but it's still true. There haven't been that many attempts at "hardcore PvP" made. As for my personal views on how to handle the situation.. well, for one, narrow the power scope a hell of a lot, so that an experienced PvPer isn't twenty times as powerful as a newbie. Secondly, implement reasonable consequences for being a criminal. Finally, a lot of little things. Make it possible to run away from fights without a 90% assured death rate. Make living within the scope of the law have reasonable benefits as opposed to drawbacks. Slow down combat so that a person who gets attacked isn't dead before he even knows what's going on.
I'd go on, but it's a topic in and of itself. PvP isn't something you can just "slot in". You have to balance around it, you have to build your game mechanics and your world around it. Has to be designed from the ground up.
As for the second point, I was primarily trying to point out the short-sightedness of giving people a choice of servers, seeing them flock to the non-PvP ones, and then crying "Look, look, you see! There's no demand for PvP!" Not everybody wants victims. A lot of people do, but it's really not that simple. The benefits of a world where you're not incapable of punching somebody else in the face are many. I'll make a list if you really want, but even if I did, it wouldn't matter.
It's really not a clear cut subject.
However, that IS what Ultima Online was when factions was first introduced, and Pre:R before Trammel was introduced.
However, pretty much EVERYTHING else you mentioned is right there in Ultima. You don't believe me? Play it yourself, and you will most certainly find out.
At the same time, it's impossible to prove a negative, so this is really just a cop-out. The 'open, full-loot PVP' crowd can't even adequately explain what such a game 'done right' would look like, or what they think was done wrong in the old games. Pretty much all I ever hear is either 'pre-trammel UO in 3D' or something that drastically waters down the 'open pvp' and 'full loot' portion of the ruleset.
Right, like camping gates/zones/flight points, wearing a PVP specialized setup to attack someone in a PVE specialized setup, attacking players who have less skills/levels, attacking players in worse gear, attacking with a large group against a small group, ambushing someone who's in the middle of PVE, and so on. The 'hardcore' PVPers are the ones who do the most taking of the easy path.
Most people don't want to lose their stuff over and over in these sorts of situations, which is why they avoid the 'hardcore' PVP games. If you're not lootable, you don't have to go grind back your stuff after a fight, you don't lose the fruits of your mining (or other PVE pursuit) if you get jumped, and so on. And real PVPers (as opposed to the guys who just want to gank) want to seek out challenging fights, which gank-and-loot PVP actively discourages by punishing players for losing a fight.
What it comes down to is the 'hardcore' PVP crowd wants victims, and most people don't care to pay money to be someone else's victim.
you're talking bout games just not even designed right,. I'm playing a hardcore Full PvP MMO right now this does not happen. If you gank a lowbie the lowbie gets to keep his stuff because hes still learning. There are no levels, so ev1 hasd fighting chance. other day a 'shark' (experienced pvper) attacked my newb ship I did just fine and lived. You're talking bout bad games from like 10+ yrs ago or something just not designed right
Camp a gate? Then why cant the victim fly right back through it? Why not give them spawn protection? FPS games have that why is this an issue takes a programmer 1 min to fix. In the game I play was made on a SMALL budget and I can fly right back through a gate jsut fine. everything is instant and seamless.
Attacking a lowbie nets me nothing! I get no rewards. I only get rewards for taking dfown a fellow shark that has something worth taking.
It's all playr skill. no levels. just raw skill and ability to pilot your craft (and its not EvE)
Like I tried to explain to you before- to no avail- its about risk vs reward. When I attack an enemy from another corp and he loses his ship I just won a big victory for -my- guild. Now they have one less ship. When I takeover their land- that's less money and resources they own
no offense but you only focus on the negatives.
It's a Player run content we speak of! of course some bully will take your lunch money lol I'm not denying that but stop bringing on points from games just not designed right
edit- guys he's just baiting us. no matter what we post he will find fault. best not to entertain him. maybe this whole thread jsut flamebait by pve'ers
what game are you talking bout? in the hardcore FFA pvp game I play I only gotten attacked once or twice out of all the players that assist me or fly right by me- which is many. im not denying such a thing can happen to you but really that sounds like a game that has no risk vs reward or has levels (vertical progression) so newbies defenseless or newbies can be looted. which is just nutty all of that
well designed full pvp loot games escape all that cause ganking a noob yields no loot. they keep their loot and respawn. onyl worth it to gank vets that have the good ships and owns land/resources worth taking.
<edit - bah this post about UO, a game madfe like 10+ years ago and people picking on it still amazing as if other devs cant implement improvements to an old model>
I play Starport, a 2D MMO made by former UO devs. was something they cranked out on a small budget obviously but the design blows away most any other MMO out the water.
There's no levels. Servers are up for 2 weeks on the one I play. thats right we get wiped once someone "wins" the universe
you can own colonies and gain xp. but this is the catch. The xp is not for grinding levels. there are no skills but the "A" game you bring with you.
ramp up is short because everyone starts at same time. so everyone's a noob at the begining and the whole community levels together. nice, tight community whjere you can imapct the world. I take what I want and work for it if I desire
I have yet to kill a single NPC for xp. there is no levels here anyway but xp determines who wins.
players lose xp for getting smoked.
You can discover entire planets and colonize them. you better put up some defenses cause guess what everything is 100% persistant. yep, if you logout in a bad place you can get capped. cause your ship is truly persistant
The entire game world is. my colonists are persistant and spaceports can be robbed.
if this thing had a bigger budget it would smoke the upcoming grind games. but the Devs refused the mainstream contract because he wanted full control. He did not want Starport to become a grindfest like these other MMOs
one of the best MMOs I've ever played
solid game design, flawless for hardcore pvp. these devs poured their souls into this and did it for love. not for the paychecks cause they knew sucha brutal world would never appeal to the non-violent lol. but ironically I see more pve'er / pacifists then anyone cause its a world they directly impact and they can win this universe just like the violent warrior can
If this thing was 3D and had a bigger budget it would be even more popular
<edit- sry I got some facts wrong here but you get the gist of it>
Ok, maybe you're right that most FFA pvp'rs want twitch skills, but I don't fall into most. I can't, nor do I want to, develop the hand-eye coordination of a 14-yr-old. Twitch skill FFA pvp attracts a younger pvp, whom I don't want to play with anyway for other reasons. I want my pvp based on calculators, and with no need for "bunny hopping" all over the place to get your opponent to miss a couple times. I don't mind complex choices of tactics, but I want those tactics queu'd up for calculated execution. If a thief gets behind me for a backstab, its because his skill calculator allowed it, and not because I failed to scramble around with the movement keys trying to keep him in front me. YUCK!
AC was the biggest twitch pvp game of all time. If you had to rate it on a scale of 1-10 it would hit a least a 9 in the twitch department. I played AC Darktide for 2 1/2 years. So I don't understand what your take on AC1.... or are you talking about AC2? Now that was skill calculated, and I loved it. Shadowbane was definately more skill calculated, and I LOVED it also. UO basically got twitchy when it turned into a chase fight.
So there are two niches for FFA PvP... to twitch and not to twitch.
Shadowbane didn't fail based on the sole fact that it was FFA PvP. Shadowbane failed because...
... because the devs were too slow to fix bugs.
... because the devs were too slow to fix exploits.
... because the devs were too slow to implement improvements.
... because the devs were so slow they abandoned improvements.
... because the devs were too slow to add expansions.
... because the devs were too slow to eliminate point & click movement (they're still thinking that one through)
Is UO Siege Perilous still going? I enjoyed it.
AO - Rimor - 43 Solitus Soldier
Played - UO AC1 AC2 SWG SB PS DAoC Eve GW EQ2 WoW
EVE is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, it's not a game from 10 years ago, and no you can't fly right back through a gate. I'd go into more detail, but if everyone who disagrees with you is trolling, and people who comment on words that you post are trolling, there's really not much point in trying to hold a reasonable conversation.
Actually, what you did before was accuse me of 'trolling' for responding directly to what you wrote. You said that people complaining about being destroyed as newbs were "whining", then switched over to the 'poorly designed' track you're taking now.
In other words: If someone disagrees with you, they must be trolling, no one could ever have a different opinion! And if someone finds faults in your posts, it has nothing to do with your posts having a fault, they're just trolling!
Let me just take the time to correct quickly one of your mistakes.
UO:Ren released April 3rd 2000.
Following the chart that you linked, they had about 150,000 subscribers in January of that year, and that number continued to RISE for 19 months until July of '01, when there was a slight downward trend (looks like 5-10k subscribers) that carried until July of '03. So please, next time you make a claim like Trammel releasing was the first downward trend, make sure that the link you give supports your point, and in fact, yours does not. In fact there was not a downward trend in subscriptions for 15 months AFTER the release of UO:R, and in fact the first trend was after the NEXT release.
The first downward trend happened after the release of UO: Third Dawn in March, 2001.
Yes.
gotta love it when someone says a game fails because it had open pvp. I could point to countless all PvE games and said they fail due to no hardcore pvp but we have one hardcore MMO that goes outta business because it was made by broke devs to begin with and people try to keep using it as their reasoning years and years later. nice, but only your fellow PvE'ers will fall for this (which are many though I give u that)
EVE is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, it's not a game from 10 years ago, and no you can't fly right back through a gate....
then EvE pvp is broken that simple. I stopped reading this post right here.
all you can do is bring up EvE which is a game that caters to pve'ers (allows farming in safe zones). Starport resolved this like many other real pvp games and Starport was made by like handful of devs and they f2p. so if they can get it right then why not CCP? How can it be such a hard issue to fix that obviously breaks pvp and makes it so I can be exploited? It's -NOT-. Real pvp games fix that its a non-issue
I dont play EvE but that sounds hella broke to me.
An old UO vet here, my residence was always in Felucca and did most of my playing there. My GF who was not very good at pvp also resided there. We had great fun there. The nice thing about UO, you could run around all day with standard blacksmith made stuff and be completely competitive. So if you died, your stuff was easily replaced. What killed UO was the Age of Shadows expansion, it introduced the fancy weapons, and made it an equipment game instead of a skill game.
Problem with most of these open pvp games, they have to have fancy equipment which unbalances the pvp, it becomes an equipment fest instead of a skill fest.
I play Eve now and it is not perfect, but I still have fun. It has problems, but it is the best at the moment for open pvp. Problem with Eve, the aggressor as a significant edge over the defender. There are significant holes in their code that the agressors exploit. Say for example an ore thief comes up and steals something from a group mate, that thief is only flagged to the person they stole from, if i were to attack him i would be killed by the local police, Concord. So the pvp is not balanced well at all, some of the rules are basically unfair. You just have to recognize there will be jerks and it is best just to ignore them if you can.
I laugh at the Darkfall fanboys, the game has been in production so long half the devs are working out of coffins.
Just thought I'd weigh in on the whole, "most people who pk don't gank or kill lowbies," thing. IMO that is a complete farce, and totally devoid of what is really happening. My pvp experience is not extensive, limited to CoX, WoW and EQ, and truthfully I tend to suck at it. I tend to get killed a lot, but something I have repeatedly noticed is...
Most of the people killing me are much, much, much higher level than me. I can probably count on one hand the number of people within 5 - 10 levels that have killed me. Not because they couldn't (I allready said I suck at pvp) but because, I can only assume they viewed it as too risky. By far the majority of killings are done by people who are much higher level.
Well since most of the people killed are killed by people of much higher level, and people of similar level avoid the fights, this tends to imply that it is more than a few who enjoy ganking lowbies, in fact it tends to imply that it is the majority of people who pk that do gank and kill lowbies.
Now if it was a minority than the numbers of death due to gankers would be less, but we as carebears have not noticed this, we have noticed that we tend to repeatedly get killed by people who as I said are much higher in level (or skill if your a skill based game becuase for the most part skills and levels are really just semantics). Repeatedly getting killed tends to interfere with our sense of accomplishments in a game, making the game less enjoygable. And since the point of a game is fun we then find a game that is more enjoyable.
Venge Sunsoar
please at least try to mention non-level based grinds which suck at pvp anyway. none of my posts deal with level based grinders.
Cute story but overaggerated. I can tell you didnt play City of Heroes long. You cant be ganked in CoX lol. I know I have reached level cap in that game. -ALL- the pvp zones technically autolevel you to level cap. So, if u enter siren's call you get autoleveled to 30. How cvan you get ganked 1v1 by a higher lvl? Please enlighten me its impossible.
In WoW post-battlegrounds / arena everyone hits those instances for the high lvl honor rewards. ev1 knows open pvp practically dead in WoW. I just took a poll a few days ago some others voted that. how can you bring up WoW all u gotta do is hit the angel and go farm somewhere else. go farm an instance dungeon wit all the rest of the farmers. farm to your hearts content in 100% safety even on the PvP servers.
I thought we were at least talking pvp games where u have something to lose when you die. not level grinders like WoW when all u have is hurt pride. and cant blame a higher lvl for messing you up if you wont even hit the angel. although granted, WoW is really sucky for pvp. I'd say Guild Wars much, much better for pvp if you gonna go all instanced, casul pvp. but none of these games you listed hardcore pvp.
of course people will take your lunch money given the chance especially loot whoring games like WoW where gear >>>>>> noobs
I've always felt that the "area" model for PvP/PvE is the one that will work for larger audiences. Be it Felluca (UO), Ground Zero (Auto Assault), Ettenmoors (LotRO), non-Empire & low sec (EVE) or DAoC's RvR areas, I think that's the only way a game can integrate a more full PvP with a large market. If you want a large market AND full PvP, you just can't have it open everywhere. Most folks WILL avoid the PvP if possible. I think you want their money still, so avoiding PvP means clearly delineated spaces where you don't have it. You'd much rather that than have them take their money to a different game altogether.
UO tried to make full pvp the norm when they started. Apparently, a large enough population of players abused the system to the point where they weren't going to get the audience they wanted/needed to succeed. So, they went to the Trammel/Fel system in an attempt to give the PvPers a haven and the Carebears could enjoy the game. And the game succeeded, obviously.
The key for developers is to make the area or RvR type stuf have enough rewards to draw in the folks who aren't really into PvP. SWG tried with the player-made bases, but the implementation was bad and the rewards not that good. It was mainly for atmosphere. UO actually does reward Fel players, both with better resource yields AND with the champ spawns which only drop certain items in Fel, not in the Tram equivalents. In neither case was the reward enough. Nor was AO's tower battles, though losing your tower bonuses DOES hurt a bit more. And the idea of balancing the levels available in the battle around the towers is a good one. However, the permanent 4-hr PvP flag you gain is a detriment because you're then open to the griefers everywhere without death removing the flag, so a lot of folks stay out of the fray. I enjoy the AA PvP both because of the rewards AND because of its known limit to hi level folks. The RISK part, however, isn't there since there's no DP at all. This is a GOOD thing for drawing in carebears like myself, and it's a lot more fun for me to PvP without a DP, but I know it's not realistic risk/reward. LotRO provides the Ettenmoors just so folks can PvP. It's not really integral to the game, and doesn't fit with the genre since we're all supposed to be on the same side in Tolkein's world. EVE and DAoC seem to have succeeded the best so far at juggling the balancing act.
But in the end, there wouldn't have been a division if players had controlled themselves. To this day, trying Siege Perilous is impossible because you can't even get out of a newbie city without some bored hi-level mage griefing you at the moongate and looting your 2 pickaxes and the 5 herbs you picked off the ground on the way to the moongate. They just cannot seem to control themselves, and that will make people flock to other games in a hurry.
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
The Lineage Series. is. The Perfect Answer. For this thread.
guys if we let pve'ers farm in complete safety then they will come to our pvp zones and totally rip our butts apart. Why? cause they farming in 100% safety. there can be no compromises here, either we get full 100% pvp with looting or its just not hardcore open pvp. if you let ppl farm then the warriors will have to farm just to be competitive. I say screw that I'm taking what I want. not paying $15 a month for some FPS pvp with uber grind
good thoughtful posts but no. we cant have instances for pve'ers to farm in 100% safety then walk into our zones and just own us. If you want to be profitable then do what asian MMOs do. put the casual pvpers/pve'ers on their own server. put the hardcore pvpers on their own server (think Rappelz did this).
works just fine for Starport. works fine for asian MMOs. that way if they want a hardcore experience after casual pvp with 0 impact then let them reroll. but cant let them transfer from PvE ---> PvP either.
So how fun are the pvp servers?
how populated are they?
As far as i can view it , Guild wars and most Likely Warhammer Online are the way togo.
Defenitly a challenge to make an appelaing for all pvpve. AION seems to claim it also.
Lets see what comes upon us these months ad AION opens in korea to beta June 20 i think and warhammer seems also to get beta in june... Some drops should come our way i hope...
Have no fear, Xru is here.
<edit not directed at nice guy above me but these topics get my blood pressure boiling >
See its so funny this entire thread about Trammel which surely ruined UO pvp. Let people farm in complete safety you're catering to pure grind. You make your entire game PvE driven just by giving farmers instances
Without farming why the hell would u farm for hrs and hrs and hrs for uber loot? You wont cause u know you might lose it. so u dont put on what u know good and well youre gonna just lose it in your first fight. so put on junk and go pvp. but then u jsut made pvp meaningless when before you'd put on that good armor perhaps cause maybe u just looted it. maybe because u know theres many others wearing the good stuff!
if pvp is safe (no looting) then hell why not just go buy some account from a farmer? If there is no risk then that means sooner or later im a get good and I dont have to give up my loot that I -never- earned. it is not always this way but in games like WoW where u get honor/rep well hell i saw ppl just go AFK day after day and hit Warlord. they didnt earn it and got no respect in these bad situations. not always this way but that was a general consesnus among many
safe zones ruin hardcore open pvp period. pve'er/farmer (they are synomous to me they are the samething)- will surely ruin pvp. They will get the uber gear. they will. PvE'ers burn content in like a mere hours that takes game developers months and months to make. So they must make PvE'ers grind because pve in its current state is hella repetitive in MMOs.
Pvpers create dynamic content for each other. PvE'ers consume content. thus we get more grind and uber lootz cause of the pve'er that will get bored and quit cause of lack of progression. unlike pvpers they dont create dynamic experiences for each other.
And they wont come to the pvp zones and lose it. And even if they this nutty they gonna come with major backup of fellow 'ubers' and own all the hardocore pvpers and take them to school. because us hardcore pvpers are notorious for hating PvE grind so we can only hope to get the gear from an uber guildie that farms content til their fingers bleed
but that wont happen because uber guild will reduce their risks and run in huge packs.
Absolutely correct on all of the above. But that's kinda the point. The hardcore audience just isn't big enough to support the massive amounts of cash the companies want to make. There's GOT to be compromise to bring in all those "casual" or "carebear" or whatever label you want dollars. Yes, Lineage II is a good game as far as I can tell, but the numbers of players are low compared to what a full-blown MMO producer wants to see these days. So there has GOT to be compromise.
And, yes, with full-loot, open FFA PvP, I AM gonna wear my garbage gear when I go around unless it's with a whole pack of folks along with me. No other way around it. If the point of PvP is to just take other people's stuf, then you won't see a major game that allows that. Niche, maybe. But not full-blown.
Have to find a way to give PvP a POINT more than just taking other people's stuf. One way is to have NO loot-drop gear, like pre-CU SWG. You want something uber, some other PLAYER has to MAKE it for you, so you may need to gather him/her up some resources or components to GET that uber gear. But a game where you can just take from your opponent at will is not going to garner any kind of market share these days, no matter what the franchise or how good it is.
Give ideas on how to make PvP meaningful, and you might spark some thought. Just open, I pwn'd joo, gimme your stuf PvP is NOT going to happen on a large scale anymore.
-- Xix
"I know what you're thinking: 'Why, oh WHY, didn't I take the BLUE pill?'"
Lineage II makes like has 75% NCSoft revenues versus City of Heroes (9%) and way more then Guild wars (14%). like those games are spit compared to the income Lineage 2 wheels in. Its a sick fortune its in the NCSoft public statements.
The market is there
Think bout it- GW is overseas too. so dont say its cause L2 is overseas cause so is Guild Wars. but L2 is 75% NCSoft market share GW is 14% and CoX is 9% if memory serves me correctly. this all numbers still fresh on my mind
How can hardcore pvp not have meaning when we fight over land we can own? I kill one of your guildies and I destroy his ship. Hes back in a newbie boat. this is how meaningful pvp goes- you fight and fight til there's nothing but rubble. And its intense because the entire game world is changing and getting bent to your will. PVP has meaning and there is no endless grind from uber loot. pvp in itself entertains players. cast away your doubts I know this model works it already has. it did with UO pre-trammel already. over 150k subs is a success look at City of Heroes its been hovering around 150k since launch. still here.
Sure, noobs will get ganked and get their lunch taken. I'm not denying that. They'll either get smart, reduce their risk, and join a guild or get chased to the newbie servers. Thats the point. It's about dominance. winning. Survivors own the world and the others scram. which is why Starport resets cause they know in enough time someone will dominate completely. This is why we dont see player run content, that simple
people wanna hate on UO but whats funny former UO Devs that didnt relocate to EA North are in Austin making your favorite MMOs and running the big companies. Hell who do you think gonna be help working on Bioware MMO? Austin dEvs! They're spread across the nation and enslaved working on static MMOs designed for farmers
Real PVPers had already been in Siege Perilous for years.
those wanting FFA PVP usually are against equal footing pvp and only want to grief younger players.
...and it's well proven and argued to death fact that UOs playerbase grew once Trammel was introduced.
bah so all I want to do is grief young players give me a break. I want to fight real competition and wage epic wars. sure, young players will surely get killed unless they join an association. The weak are solo players. The strong reduce their risk and team