Originally posted by DethlyBladeZ Well.. In my own opinion I think it'll attract more of those little perverted retards to the game.. sadly.
People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
Well.. In my own opinion I think it'll attract more of those little perverted retards to the game.. sadly.
People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
Well.. In my own opinion I think it'll attract more of those little perverted retards to the game.. sadly.
People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
Well I 'll say it may make for an older player base, but not more mature. By what I have seen for the AOC forums there is certainly nothing more mature about the future player base.
A game with a little nudity is attracting immature perverts. On the other hand your are very mature because you are playing your WOW and WAR cartoon games.
Well you know, even if you were brainwashed with sectarian or religious beliefs since childhood, one day in this life or the next you guys will grow up and suddenly you will begin to accept the fact that other people CAN think, live, and have different opinions.
Sorry to break it for you, but nudity is part of the human body. And no, Jesus was not born with his clothes on.
Originally posted by Rymdkejsaren Originally posted by zido People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
Clearly you were never 13.
I know, I skipped 13 somehow..
Anyways; a 13 year old would have to buy a game he wasn't allowed to, then play a lot to see the breats. There's not exactly a lack of sexual content on the internet, so I doubt even 13 year old kids will bother to play them game just to see sexual content.
Ofcourse, some people will be more "pleased" that there's sexual content in the game than others.
A game with a little nudity is attracting immature perverts. On the other hand your are very mature because you are playing your WOW and WAR cartoon games.
Well you know, even if you were brainwashed with sectarian or religious beliefs since childhood, one day in this life or the next you guys will grow up and suddenly you will begin to accept the fact that other people CAN think, live, and have different opinions.
Sorry to break it for you, but nudity is part of the human body. And no, Jesus was no born with his clothes on.
You totally miss the point. This has nothing to do about modesty, reguardless of anyone's religious peference. Go find a diferent forum to soap box your mis-guided ideology on.
Well.. In my own opinion I think it'll attract more of those little perverted retards to the game.. sadly.
People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
Clearly you were never 13.
I was 13 once and the easiest way to see breasts is not from playing a video game that you have to subscribe to. All you have to do is spell a normal internet site address incorrectly and bickety bam you see some breasts and a hell of a lot more.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
A game with a little nudity is attracting immature perverts. On the other hand your are very mature because you are playing your WOW and WAR cartoon games.
Well you know, even if you were brainwashed with sectarian or religious beliefs since childhood, one day in this life or the next you guys will grow up and suddenly you will begin to accept the fact that other people CAN think, live, and have different opinions.
Sorry to break it for you, but nudity is part of the human body. And no, Jesus was no born with his clothes on.
Theology is way off. But theres a difference between using nudity artistically and just using it crudely. That dungeon boss in the video is pretty mild the whole "rubbing her lady parts" animation just reminds me of Belladonna from Thrill Kill, I won't be surprised if they make that boss moan or something. But you make it sound like just because some people don't want to play a game with nudity cause they don't want to deal with immature players or the likes are some bible thumper when they probably really aren't. Of course people can live, think, etc... But what would you rather hear. "Wow that boss has some pretty nice cans!", or "W0W 0MIG0SH TEH BEWBS!!".
A game with a little nudity is attracting immature perverts. On the other hand your are very mature because you are playing your WOW and WAR cartoon games.
Well you know, even if you were brainwashed with sectarian or religious beliefs since childhood, one day in this life or the next you guys will grow up and suddenly you will begin to accept the fact that other people CAN think, live, and have different opinions.
Sorry to break it for you, but nudity is part of the human body. And no, Jesus was no born with his clothes on.
You totally miss the point. This has nothing to do about modesty, reguardless of anyone's religious peference. Go find a diferent forum to soap box your mis-guided ideology on.
Thanks for proving my point.
Enjoy the rest of your stay calling and labeling people as immature and perverts.
A game with a little nudity is attracting immature perverts. On the other hand your are very mature because you are playing your WOW and WAR cartoon games.
Well you know, even if you were brainwashed with sectarian or religious beliefs since childhood, one day in this life or the next you guys will grow up and suddenly you will begin to accept the fact that other people CAN think, live, and have different opinions.
Sorry to break it for you, but nudity is part of the human body. And no, Jesus was no born with his clothes on.
You totally miss the point. This has nothing to do about modesty, reguardless of anyone's religious peference. Go find a diferent forum to soap box your mis-guided ideology on.
Thanks for proving my point.
Enjoy the rest of your stay calling and labeling people as immature and perverts.
How does that probe your point? all you did was fall back on the religeous key, which really shouldn't have been posted at all. And it didn't help prove anything that the game will have Perverts or not.
But theres a difference between using nudity artistically and just using it crudely.
Of course, I agree with you. Everything what is excessive is not sane.
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.
I'm pretty disappointed to see the nudity. I am a big fan of boobs, myself... but video game boobs don't do anything for me. It just means I can't play the game with my son, or even when he is in the room... so it probably means I'll just skip the game. My son is a very mature 11, but he still doesn't need to play a game where the titties just fly in the breeze. My wife would have my head on a pike if she found out i allowed it anyway.
So the OP is right, it will keep young children away.... but it will also alienate a lot of adults. I agree with the guys saying this just means the game will be full of 16 - 23 year old ass-hats. I would compare them to the xbox live player-base, but I don';t have to... since you will actually be playing this game along with the xbox live guys, you already know exactly what level of maturity to expect.
If you think about it parents wont let little kids play the game because of the ingame nudity and the obvious mature content.
Therefor almost every person playing will be either mature teens or adults, kids will be forced out of playing the game by there parents.
This will for very first time in mmorpg's make the playerbase almost all mature older people.
No more little kids running around cursing and screaming and ruining game play for others.
I hope they put on the Box in very large letters "NUDITY" "18+" and "GORE" it will make any parent say hell no tot here stupid kids when they ask for it.
If you're looking for a game without kids or with very few kids; check out Sociolotron. I'm not putting up a link, just google it.
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.
Nudity and sexuality is part of the violent barbarian world. I enjoy it as it adds to immersion in this world, but of course everything excessive is not good and too much of it can harm certain people's feelings. So yes, it must be controlled and I think they did a very good job as it is now, with some hints here and there.
But yes, I totally agree with you on the "1337 bewbs" part
But theres a difference between using nudity artistically and just using it crudely.
Of course, I agree with you. Everything what is excessive is not sane.
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.Quite frankly some people like this kind of interaction, even if it is for fun or for some pleasure. There is no fault here, just a little creepy, but nothing wrong with enjoying the game HOW you want it. Why does it matter? Is it not up to us to decide how we can play? Well most of you guys already answred the question. I don't think it's wrong to have these interactions for coins, just how people scam other players for gold or coins. If
If you think about it parents wont let little kids play the game because of the ingame nudity and the obvious mature content.
Therefor almost every person playing will be either mature teens or adults, kids will be forced out of playing the game by there parents.
This will for very first time in mmorpg's make the playerbase almost all mature older people.
No more little kids running around cursing and screaming and ruining game play for others.
I hope they put on the Box in very large letters "NUDITY" "18+" and "GORE" it will make any parent say hell no tot here stupid kids when they ask for it.
If you're looking for a game without kids or with very few kids; check out Sociolotron. I'm not putting up a link, just google it.
Hehe One glance at their main site just made me laugh my ass off, for the fact that you're probably very right on the part of having no kids or very few.
But theres a difference between using nudity artistically and just using it crudely.
Of course, I agree with you. Everything what is excessive is not sane.
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.Quite frankly some people like this kind of interaction, even if it is for fun or for some pleasure. There is no fault here, just a little creepy, but nothing wrong with enjoying the game HOW you want it. Why does it matter? Is it not up to us to decide how we can play? Well most of you guys already answred the question. I don't think it's wrong to have these interactions for coins, just how people scam other players for gold or coins. If
So you wouldn't mind 850 different people advertising "services" in the game? If they were going to add prostitution in the game they would make NPCs for it, I don't think they really want people to play the game just to be a whore.
I'm pretty disappointed to see the nudity. I am a big fan of boobs, myself... but video game boobs don't do anything for me. It just means I can't play the game with my son, or even when he is in the room... so it probably means I'll just skip the game. My son is a very mature 11, but he still doesn't need to play a game where the titties just fly in the breeze.
Absolutely. This is definitely a major concern and the reason why this game will be rated. In the same way, there are many movies (involving nudity or violence) that you can't watch in your children's presence.
I'm pretty disappointed to see the nudity. I am a big fan of boobs, myself... but video game boobs don't do anything for me. It just means I can't play the game with my son, or even when he is in the room... so it probably means I'll just skip the game. My son is a very mature 11, but he still doesn't need to play a game where the titties just fly in the breeze. My wife would have my head on a pike if she found out i allowed it anyway. So the OP is right, it will keep young children away.... but it will also alienate a lot of adults. I agree with the guys saying this just means the game will be full of 16 - 23 year old ass-hats. I would compare them to the xbox live player-base, but I don';t have to... since you will actually be playing this game along with the xbox live guys, you already know exactly what level of maturity to expect.
I agree that there will be adult ass-hats too. Your practically saying 16=23 year old are the faults of this immaturity. And if your son was "mature" as you say, then he would really mind these "titties" flying over the screen. You just say, "son these are breasts, they are ont he female body where you had your first sip of milk."
Why do parents do such a bad job at parenting these days? It's just really funny how parents can't really "bond" with their kids and have a "real" talk about body parts to educate their children.
Flame on woot. Not really, it's fact, cause look at this generation of teenagers, most of us are retarded as hell, most of us do drugs and think we are "cool". Yet there's that small % of teenagers that can handle this, and act maturely in the real world and in games. So yes, adults can also be blamed for this maturity, just you can't really tell if it's an adult being immature or a teenager being mature, and vice versa.
Originally posted by Salvatoris I'm pretty disappointed to see the nudity. I am a big fan of boobs, myself... but video game boobs don't do anything for me. It just means I can't play the game with my son, or even when he is in the room... so it probably means I'll just skip the game. My son is a very mature 11, but he still doesn't need to play a game where the titties just fly in the breeze. My wife would have my head on a pike if she found out i allowed it anyway. So the OP is right, it will keep young children away.... but it will also alienate a lot of adults. I agree with the guys saying this just means the game will be full of 16 - 23 year old ass-hats. I would compare them to the xbox live player-base, but I don';t have to... since you will actually be playing this game along with the xbox live guys, you already know exactly what level of maturity to expect.
What impresses me is that you don't mention exposing your kid to the brutality of the game. It's ok for him to see people being slaughtered, but it's not ok if he sees a breast? It just seems like it's better for the kid to grow up to become a serial killer than for him to ever have a girlfriend.
Ofcourse, if you want to skip the game I doubt anybody will try to stop you when you in the same post try to trash it's fanbase. But you probably should consider that most adults have seen breats in their life, and have absolutely no problem with nudity as long as it's to make the game better and more true to Conan lore, so the game is likely to at least the same amount of mature players as any other MMO.
Ofcourse, you have a lot of immature people old enough to play the game, but it would be impossible to filter this out, allowing only people who are old enough and act mature to buy the game.
But theres a difference between using nudity artistically and just using it crudely.
Of course, I agree with you. Everything what is excessive is not sane.
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.Quite frankly some people like this kind of interaction, even if it is for fun or for some pleasure. There is no fault here, just a little creepy, but nothing wrong with enjoying the game HOW you want it. Why does it matter? Is it not up to us to decide how we can play? Well most of you guys already answred the question. I don't think it's wrong to have these interactions for coins, just how people scam other players for gold or coins. If
So you wouldn't mind 850 different people advertising "services" in the game? If they were going to add prostitution in the game they would make NPCs for it, I don't think they really want people to play the game just to be a whore.Nah i woudlnt mind. Why? It's just a game, ignore them. How hard is that? Or are you just lazy?
But theres a difference between using nudity artistically and just using it crudely.
Of course, I agree with you. Everything what is excessive is not sane.
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.Quite frankly some people like this kind of interaction, even if it is for fun or for some pleasure. There is no fault here, just a little creepy, but nothing wrong with enjoying the game HOW you want it. Why does it matter? Is it not up to us to decide how we can play? Well most of you guys already answred the question. I don't think it's wrong to have these interactions for coins, just how people scam other players for gold or coins. If
So you wouldn't mind 850 different people advertising "services" in the game? If they were going to add prostitution in the game they would make NPCs for it, I don't think they really want people to play the game just to be a whore.Nah i woudlnt mind. Why? It's just a game, ignore them. How hard is that? Or are you just lazy?
If you think about it parents wont let little kids play the game because of the ingame nudity and the obvious mature content.
Therefor almost every person playing will be either mature teens or adults, kids will be forced out of playing the game by there parents.
This will for very first time in mmorpg's make the playerbase almost all mature older people.
No more little kids running around cursing and screaming and ruining game play for others.
I hope they put on the Box in very large letters "NUDITY" "18+" and "GORE" it will make any parent say hell no tot here stupid kids when they ask for it.
If you're looking for a game without kids or with very few kids; check out Sociolotron. I'm not putting up a link, just google it.
Hehe One glance at their main site just made me laugh my ass off, for the fact that you're probably very right on the part of having no kids or very few. As far as I know, it's the only MMO where you can rape other players... Never said it was nice...
Comments
People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
--
Age of Conan Wiki
Member of The Axemen
- What archetype will you play?
People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
Clearly you were never 13.[DTE]
People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
You'd be surprisedYou puritans are really amazing.
A game with a little nudity is attracting immature perverts. On the other hand your are very mature because you are playing your WOW and WAR cartoon games.
Well you know, even if you were brainwashed with sectarian or religious beliefs since childhood, one day in this life or the next you guys will grow up and suddenly you will begin to accept the fact that other people CAN think, live, and have different opinions.
Sorry to break it for you, but nudity is part of the human body. And no, Jesus was not born with his clothes on.
I know, I skipped 13 somehow..
Anyways; a 13 year old would have to buy a game he wasn't allowed to, then play a lot to see the breats. There's not exactly a lack of sexual content on the internet, so I doubt even 13 year old kids will bother to play them game just to see sexual content.
Ofcourse, some people will be more "pleased" that there's sexual content in the game than others.
--
Age of Conan Wiki
Member of The Axemen
- What archetype will you play?
People keep predicting that there'll be a lot of perverts in the game because of the nudity. As far as we've seen, there's one dungeon where you can see a boss' breasts. I doubt people looking for nudity will bother playing for a couple of months just to see a couple of breasts.
Clearly you were never 13.I was 13 once and the easiest way to see breasts is not from playing a video game that you have to subscribe to. All you have to do is spell a normal internet site address incorrectly and bickety bam you see some breasts and a hell of a lot more.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Thanks for proving my point.
Enjoy the rest of your stay calling and labeling people as immature and perverts.
Thanks for proving my point.
Enjoy the rest of your stay calling and labeling people as immature and perverts.
How does that probe your point? all you did was fall back on the religeous key, which really shouldn't have been posted at all. And it didn't help prove anything that the game will have Perverts or not.
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.
I'm pretty disappointed to see the nudity. I am a big fan of boobs, myself... but video game boobs don't do anything for me. It just means I can't play the game with my son, or even when he is in the room... so it probably means I'll just skip the game. My son is a very mature 11, but he still doesn't need to play a game where the titties just fly in the breeze. My wife would have my head on a pike if she found out i allowed it anyway.
So the OP is right, it will keep young children away.... but it will also alienate a lot of adults. I agree with the guys saying this just means the game will be full of 16 - 23 year old ass-hats. I would compare them to the xbox live player-base, but I don';t have to... since you will actually be playing this game along with the xbox live guys, you already know exactly what level of maturity to expect.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
Hehe
But yes, I totally agree with you on the "1337 bewbs" part
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.Quite frankly some people like this kind of interaction, even if it is for fun or for some pleasure. There is no fault here, just a little creepy, but nothing wrong with enjoying the game HOW you want it. Why does it matter? Is it not up to us to decide how we can play? Well most of you guys already answred the question. I don't think it's wrong to have these interactions for coins, just how people scam other players for gold or coins. If
Hehe One glance at their main site just made me laugh my ass off, for the fact that you're probably very right on the part of having no kids or very few.
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.Quite frankly some people like this kind of interaction, even if it is for fun or for some pleasure. There is no fault here, just a little creepy, but nothing wrong with enjoying the game HOW you want it. Why does it matter? Is it not up to us to decide how we can play? Well most of you guys already answred the question. I don't think it's wrong to have these interactions for coins, just how people scam other players for gold or coins. If
So you wouldn't mind 850 different people advertising "services" in the game? If they were going to add prostitution in the game they would make NPCs for it, I don't think they really want people to play the game just to be a whore.
I agree that there will be adult ass-hats too. Your practically saying 16=23 year old are the faults of this immaturity. And if your son was "mature" as you say, then he would really mind these "titties" flying over the screen. You just say, "son these are breasts, they are ont he female body where you had your first sip of milk."
Why do parents do such a bad job at parenting these days? It's just really funny how parents can't really "bond" with their kids and have a "real" talk about body parts to educate their children.
Flame on woot. Not really, it's fact, cause look at this generation of teenagers, most of us are retarded as hell, most of us do drugs and think we are "cool". Yet there's that small % of teenagers that can handle this, and act maturely in the real world and in games. So yes, adults can also be blamed for this maturity, just you can't really tell if it's an adult being immature or a teenager being mature, and vice versa.
What impresses me is that you don't mention exposing your kid to the brutality of the game. It's ok for him to see people being slaughtered, but it's not ok if he sees a breast? It just seems like it's better for the kid to grow up to become a serial killer than for him to ever have a girlfriend.
Ofcourse, if you want to skip the game I doubt anybody will try to stop you when you in the same post try to trash it's fanbase. But you probably should consider that most adults have seen breats in their life, and have absolutely no problem with nudity as long as it's to make the game better and more true to Conan lore, so the game is likely to at least the same amount of mature players as any other MMO.
Ofcourse, you have a lot of immature people old enough to play the game, but it would be impossible to filter this out, allowing only people who are old enough and act mature to buy the game.
--
Age of Conan Wiki
Member of The Axemen
- What archetype will you play?
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.Quite frankly some people like this kind of interaction, even if it is for fun or for some pleasure. There is no fault here, just a little creepy, but nothing wrong with enjoying the game HOW you want it. Why does it matter? Is it not up to us to decide how we can play? Well most of you guys already answred the question. I don't think it's wrong to have these interactions for coins, just how people scam other players for gold or coins. If
So you wouldn't mind 850 different people advertising "services" in the game? If they were going to add prostitution in the game they would make NPCs for it, I don't think they really want people to play the game just to be a whore.Nah i woudlnt mind. Why? It's just a game, ignore them. How hard is that? Or are you just lazy?
That's good to hear but it's not what's excessive or passable it just some people just don't want to see female chars going around in the most revealing clothing they can find and offering a "good time for a few coin" in the chat, or having some person with the name 1337 gurl with having the breast and ass to the highest proportion talking in all caps for every message.It's not the nudity that turns people off it's the fact that there's some people who think about it in game a little to excessively.Quite frankly some people like this kind of interaction, even if it is for fun or for some pleasure. There is no fault here, just a little creepy, but nothing wrong with enjoying the game HOW you want it. Why does it matter? Is it not up to us to decide how we can play? Well most of you guys already answred the question. I don't think it's wrong to have these interactions for coins, just how people scam other players for gold or coins. If
So you wouldn't mind 850 different people advertising "services" in the game? If they were going to add prostitution in the game they would make NPCs for it, I don't think they really want people to play the game just to be a whore.Nah i woudlnt mind. Why? It's just a game, ignore them. How hard is that? Or are you just lazy?
As soon as you ignore one 5 more take it's place.
Hehe One glance at their main site just made me laugh my ass off, for the fact that you're probably very right on the part of having no kids or very few. As far as I know, it's the only MMO where you can rape other players... Never said it was nice...