As for examples of game being destroyed by massive inflation.. a prime example of this is Final Fantasy XI ... gils was so over inflated its almost worthless and takes millions of gil to even buy the cheapest decent equipment... of course Squre-Enix fixed this by banning thousands of accounts and removing billions of gil from the economy. Another example is the game Ragnarok Online. You can also consider EQ and EQ2, Lineage 1 and 2, damaged by massive inflation until the developers decided to take action by banning botters, farmers and removing virtual currency out of the game. Forcing a developer's hand into taking action means there's something seriously wrong with the activities of some people. Massive inflation is bad, it forces new players to buy gold to remain competitive, its an endless destructive cycle.
If gold farmers can't hurt your game, it is simply because the design of the game is that weak, and you should just focus on a better gaming experience. Instancing remove all negatives aspect from the gold farmers on the hunting side...and on the inflation side, if you have endless supplies of everything provided at a fixed price, the prices can't inflate above these...so again, with a good design, they are harmless.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Actually slipcarb, everyone does have the same 24 hours. I'll let you know as soon as I figure out how to extend my personal day to 36 hours so we can be on equal footing.
As far as your thoughts on items, do you mean to suggest that all MMOs should institute a policy where every single character has the exact same gear? Because that's certainly the end result of your belief that if someone has better items than you, he or she must be cheating. Meh, I'm done trying to explain basic logic to you. I'm sure you will fail to understand yet again.
First, as Dan pointed out... the people farming the gold aren't quite as poorly off as compared to some of their brethren....just more exploited workers that help feed our consumer economy, and I'm thinking not that bad of a life compared to some others in China....
Alot was said about how gold selling makes the game unfair for players who don't partake in it..... very true... but I think letting people play the game more than 3 hours a day (my normal maximum) is unfair as well. I guess game developers should put in governors to keep everything even. (yeah, right). In fact, that there are people who can play 10+ hours a day boggles my mind and makes me wonder why we don't have them working in a salt mine somewhere just to keep them productive.....
Many complaints about inflation, fact is, most games suffer from this and it doesn't take much effort on the part of developers to either develop better cash drains or control the gold selling to reduce the pressure. Blizzard has done a good job in this regard....
What most people fail to realize about inflation, is that while that shiny new toy you want might cost more.... those shiny items you've farmed yourself also sell for more than they should, which helps to balance things out. Add in the factor that farmers always sell the great drops that they get (and more are available in game due to their efforts) so the net effect is to actually drive down the price of rare spawn items, not upward as most people pre-suppose.
I'm not saying it can't get out of control, FFXI is frequently touted as a great example of this, except most people fail to realize some of that pressure was a result of player run crafting cartels and not just due to excessive gold selling. In game dups/exploits normally contribute far more the inflation than gold farming (IMO I realize) from my experience.
Now, the issue of farmers camping rare spawn (and not so rare) areas is a valid complaint..and like others said...having a solid pvp element in the game (even if its RVR) helps control that problem a bit...but don't kid yourself...start attacking farmers, and they'll attack back, so in the end developer intervention probably has to happen...unless dev's program in some sort of instance based content for farmers to hide in.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Alright, so I read the whole artical, and am now in too much "OMFG!" to actally be able to sit though and read all the responses. Even though my respones is going to be ridculusly long. I personaly believe that RMT is cheaing, that it causes in game inflaction and makes the game more difficult for legit players. I also think that it is understandment to say, basicly, that players who have time to "advance" their character the legit way, don't have a lot of money, and that players who have a lot of real life money, don't have the time to to "advance" their character is a "generalization".
I understand that people with more real life money have more advantages in real life, and I don't think a game should be any different, especally a MMORPG, I just think they should be sepperate. It may still silly but I believe that if you have more in game currency, then you should have more advantages in game. I don't believe that because you have more real life money, or are willing to spend real life money, that you should be able to buy more advantages in game, just like I disagree with players who gain in game currency and sell it to gain real life money. I do however understand that it is a basic part of supply and demand, there for it is to be expected, just like the fact if the demand for cheap shoes, backpacks, clothes, ect. so will the demand for cheap labor, usually suppled by sweet shops.
I don't believe that it has ever runied an entire server or that a server had to be "shut down" because of the ecinomic concuquences of RMT. I have heard that it can cause inflaction, but I understand that inflaction is a natural part of life, there for, is going to be a natural part of any currency baced MMORPG. I don't however recall hearing any complainants about servers being "shut down" or any problems along those lines when reading complaints on gold farmers. I have heard the complaining about camping good spots, but I have heard complains about that towards non gold farmers, like the article says, normal players have been know to do that.
I have also heard it makes game play more diffuclut for leget players, either players who find it easier to "advance", players patient enough to take the time to "advance" or even players "who have all day to play". These players might get frustrated at RMT players who think that they can buy their way to the top, or even think that it "creates a balance" since they "go out and earn a living" they don't have the time to "advance", so they should be able to buy them. Another reason I have heard players tend to get frustrated with RMT is because there are players out their who will pay to be power leveled or flat out buy their account, then there are these players with high level character but no idea how to play them.
I also believe that it doesn't always take hours upon hours of grinding or "all day" to "advance", honestly I believe it takes a good system: a good location, a good group, a good race/class, or a combination of all that, something that works with the player. It make take some time to get it right, it may not, it all comes down to how well a player learns to adapit. I mean I know people who are the "breadwinner" or "who actally go out and earn a living", people who don't have "all day to play", who "advance" just fine without RMT. Honestly it seems to me, that it's just a fact of being lazy or impatient, it can take a long time to "advance" if you don't have much time to play (daily, weekly, monthly) but it's not like it's impossible. If the player has the money to "spend a few bucks getting some better gear for his toon" then they should have the money to instead pay that monthly fee a little longer.
Setting all that aside, there was one base that didn't seem to be touched at all in this article, maybe I missed it, or maybe it was excluding these games but to me there is one huge problem with RMT... It's illegal! Not all games make it so, but most of the games in which players complain about RMT, it is. So while, I may have more money and can afford cable, so I have an advantage over someone who is connecting though a 56k, honestly I only see this mattering if I'm PvPing, but as far as I know, that isn't breaking any law or even any rule. Same with someone who can afford dry cleaning, what they are doing is completly legal.
If a player doesn't like being "forced to pay a monthly fee" , for a game that "requires insane invesments of time", that they don't have or that they don't want to keep paying that fee on a game that will take time to"advance", or even if they think that they need to "advance" quickly to "compete" with others, why don't you just go play a different game. There are differenty types of MMORPG's out, plunty of which not only condone you spending real life money to "advance", but some that actally offer it. There are ones in which players aren't "forced to pay a monthly fee" and even ones that are free to download. Then there are also ones in which players don't need to "compete" with another player who might have more time to "advance" then them.
On my last note, shouldn't reward reflect work. So basicly, RMT is ok for in game balance because it lets people with money but no time, have advantages in game, while gold farming is ok for... what real life balance for those people who play all day but have no money, have advantages in real life...
EULA are rules on the game if you violate the rules you are cheating. Its that simple.
RMT promotes an out of control economy.
If companies made less tedious games I think we woul'd see less farming. Alternatively companies could offer bounties on reporting gold sellers; free month of game play for reporting someone who is selling gold, or maybe just free gold.
I'm not sure I understand why editorials are written on how a game's EULA shouldn't prohibit the things it prohibits. I mean, sure, you can argue a point until you're blue in the face, but bottom line, it's not your decision. It's like renting a house to someone. It's the owner's call whether people are able to have pets or not, and no rationalization on the renter's part makes a darned bit of difference. The reason is because the owner maintains the home, he owns the home, and the renter is just paying to occupy space in the home as long as they abide by the rules of the lease they sign.
All that aside, sure, I can agree that there's a point to Dan's argument, but the point is moot, it's not his decision, or mine, as to whether this activity should be allowed. It's up to the gaming companies. Maybe these little articles will create some new economy based on in game economies which are legitimate and permitted in the EULA. Only time will tell. However, I'm willing to bet that any ideas brought forth by Dan or any of us have already been considered by the people who can actually allow such things to occur, legally.
In WoW I only bother the macro running farmers. I usually run after them for a bit and tag anything they are about to shoot. Easy XP and loot (and if they're killing beasts, skins too)
In EvE Online, gold farmers are generally trespassing in 0.0 so they are shot on sight as a rule, just like anyone else not 'blue'. If I see a sweatshop in Empire, I may loot a few cans and report them. Why? Because they are in my region and I'm a miner myself. If they start selling ore in bulk, they're screwing up the prices and costing me ISK
Overall a good article, just think they dropped the ball going on about "Dry-cleaners" and shit. I play mmorpg's to escape real life issues so i don't understand why everything from RL should also apply in a game.
Professional atheletes are allowed to use drugs, to improve their performance, right?
The laundromat comparizon is just stupid. Compare with other games or sports. Breaking rules is cheating and, in the case of buying MMOG gold, provides an unfair advantage over others.
... What idiot would pay for an account on a server like this lol? much, much more profitable to make money on servers where there is no death penalty, no FFA PVP, and no looting
But I say what is the point in striving to get better stuff and not be able to wear it? If I can't make my toon look better, why would I bother to loot the stuff in the first place? FFA PVP severs might have a small hardcore player base, but the operative word here is small.
I think a pvp/rvr system more like the upcoming WAR is better. In that game, you can kill anyone on the opposing side and loot them, but the dead player loses self respect (important in my opinion) not his gear. That way people kep coming back and don't go offline in a huff or have to go grind somewhere to get more gear... and they can wear their best stuff to look pretty even as corpses -- very important
The way to make botters and selling gold obsolete is simple: play WAR or other games that are not gear-centric and stop chasing epic gear. As long as there is uber BOE stuff that gives an advantage over other players in a game, there will be people willing to pay real money to get it.
All you whinners ,about how gold farmers destroy your games ,are pathetic. There has not been a single game without farmers, So just STFU, unfortunatley for you guys WOW was not the first MMORPG. as the article states ,play on a PvP server; or actually better yet ,quit playing WOW , since all gold farmers are in that game nowadays.I went back to EQ1 and no problems there!
WoW has the most farmers since is the game with the most demand.(why is beyond me). and Gold farmers do not screw up economy , the Elitists guilds do by charging way to much for trivial items which in turn force people to actually go out and buy gold, and the 10 year olds that undercut everyone in the auction house or bazaar to prices that actually are way too low because they believe that everyone else is trying to rip people off. so we have the 2 extremes. Lets face it the Demand for the Gold needs to exist before the farmers sell the gold.
I have no problem with them at all , if you have the cash to spend in make believe items then more power to you. all the rest bitch and whine because
A)they are jealous ,they cant afford it.
B)They are so naive , that actually believe that they suck because of gold farmers , when in fact ,farmers or not they are not competitive enough to play a simple game of economics.
Now one thing that they use to ruin the game is when they spam. Games should go back to the old UO style chat system
You're opinion has been noted. And ignored. Goldfarmers/sellers are cockroaches. People who support and buy from them just allow the cockroaches to breed.
You wasted your first post on calling people who expect their games to be played by the rules whiners and pathetic?
You managed not to post for two years being registered here. Maybe you should stick to that plan.
I dont feel like getting flamed so all I'm going to say is very good article. I think FFA PvP, player looting, and full open pvp would resolve this issue. Lets see how the economy is then on a hardcore open PVP server in comparison to the PVE servers I bet it will be way lower due to players self regulating the servers
Apparently you never played Lineage 2. Full scale PVP doesnt stop them. They don't care about losing xp or gear. They just go buy new gear and go back to where they were farming before. They do however want you to suffer the penalty of a PK so they can kill you and get whatever gear you have on you.
BTW, proprietary selling of anything related to an MMORPG is against the company EULA and thier TOS. Plain and simple they should be banned for selling intellectual property that does not belong to them.
Hey Mr Fortier instead of using an analogy of a guy going to the dry cleaners why don't you try something like this: You apply for a job with a prominent company and so do several other people. A few weeks go buy and you get a letter in the mail saying that you did not receive the job oh well so sorry. A few months later you hear through the grapevine that Joe Snuffy, someone you knew that applied for the job, got the job becuase he used his millionare father to BUY his way into the job. Makes you feel like a winner doesn't it!
Seems to me that games like WoW with it's huge non-US player bases should be pleased to have farmers.
I mean really, Just how much of those player bases are just your average run-of-the-mill gamers and how much is/are dedicated hard core farmers trying to make a living. They have to be a solid chunk of that subscriptions list and help to keep the games doing well in the ratings. These guys are there all the time, always PAYING their subscription fees...Game Companies should welcome that kind of subscriber base.
Seems to me that games like WoW with it's huge non-US player bases should be pleased to have farmers. I mean really, Just how much of those player bases are just your average run-of-the-mill gamers and how much is/are dedicated hard core farmers trying to make a living. They have to be a solid chunk of that subscriptions list and help to keep the games doing well in the ratings. These guys are there all the time, always PAYING their subscription fees...Game Companies should welcome that kind of subscriber base.
Yes, they are also totally screwing the economy, making it impossible for the average gamer to afford in-game items. I played FFXI for over 2 years....I couldn't afford most of the cool thinkgs after awhile. I remember when Hawker +1 daggers were about 250k Gil....now they're a few Mil. Simply put, they put way to much currency into circulation, and inflation goes through the roof.
Like all things, the blame falls squarely into the lap of those who purchase virtual currency and items for real cash. But that is a fuction of greed, native to all humans i guess. While we cannot extract that shortcoming from people, we can fight to remove the enabler...in this case...RMTs.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
The reason people choose to violate the rules of games with anti RMT stances by buying gold and items is very simple. If you and others like you who support RMT, played games that support RMT, you would be like everyone else, no better or worse. You would be on an equal footing, but that's not what you and your ilk desire. You need to cheat in order to get unfair advantages so you can be ahead of everyone else who plays by the rules, and that is why you choose to play anti RMT MMOGs over RMT supported MMOGs.
What happened to analyzing my reason for playing MMO's? Did my answer completly blow away whatever response you had? Buying gold isn't cheating. Buying a character on ebay isn't cheating. Everything people do that you don't like isn't cheating. I DON'T BUY GOLD. Do I need to repeat that? You're a loot whore who gets outbid on shiny purples and now you're bitter. Go buy some gold if it bothers you that much.
Actually slipcarb, everyone does have the same 24 hours. I'll let you know as soon as I figure out how to extend my personal day to 36 hours so we can be on equal footing. As far as your thoughts on items, do you mean to suggest that all MMOs should institute a policy where every single character has the exact same gear? Because that's certainly the end result of your belief that if someone has better items than you, he or she must be cheating. Meh, I'm done trying to explain basic logic to you. I'm sure you will fail to understand yet again.
No I don't. I think MMO's are fine the way they are. But people scream buying gold isn't fair. Well if you're all about fairness then let's be all about fairness. You can't explain logic to me because even simple logic is beyond your grasp.
If someone has to work (yes adults have to work) then there's 8 hours right there that they don't have to play with. Now you take Billy fatass in his parents basement who lives off mommy and daddy and he doesn't have to work. He has 24 hours a day other guy has 16. So in fairness, since that's what this is all about, we should all have a limit to how long we should be able to play.
You can't blame the people who farm. If you believe the game mechanics that encourage "farming" are bad, then you need to place the blame where it belongs. That means you blame the developers who created the system, not the players who work the system. You cannot blame a gold farmer for working the system anymore than you can blame a powergamer. The only difference between powergamers and gold farmers is that powergamers do it for their own in game benefit, and gold farmers do it for the in game benefit of others. What are you actually mad at? The fact that the gold farmer has devised a way to make money while playing a game? If that's the case then do you hate all professional athletes?
As for the "unfair" cries, the article was quite correct. It no more unfair for a player to pay extra for broadband and a high end computer, than it is for a player to pay extra for in game currency or items. It is the exact same thing. If you die because of game crippling lag due to slow connection or your crappy PC do you cry about the inequities of life and online gaming? Do you boo and hiss at the Cable guy when he comes to instal cable internet at your neighbors house? I mean the cable guy is going the same thing the gold farmer is doing. He's giving a player an edge in gaming over those people who don't have broadband. Why don't we moan endlessly about the cable guys on MMO forums too? How about the PC salesmen too?
As for casual gamers who in addition to having limited play time also can't afford to pay for in game currency and items, well what can I tell you. Real life is not fair, why expect that to be different in gaming? Its not our fault that you suck at life. We can't be held accountable because you can't succeed enough in real life to be able to have either the time or money to be able to succeed in virtual life. The only thing I can say to people in this boat is either accept your position at the bottom of the MMO food chain or stop playing MMOs. Hell if you have no money you probably shouldn't be paying a montly fee for a video game anyway.
Actually slipcarb, everyone does have the same 24 hours. I'll let you know as soon as I figure out how to extend my personal day to 36 hours so we can be on equal footing. As far as your thoughts on items, do you mean to suggest that all MMOs should institute a policy where every single character has the exact same gear? Because that's certainly the end result of your belief that if someone has better items than you, he or she must be cheating. Meh, I'm done trying to explain basic logic to you. I'm sure you will fail to understand yet again.
No I don't. I think MMO's are fine the way they are. But people scream buying gold isn't fair. Well if you're all about fairness then let's be all about fairness. You can't explain logic to me because even simple logic is beyond your grasp.
If someone has to work (yes adults have to work) then there's 8 hours right there that they don't have to play with. Now you take Billy fatass in his parents basement who lives off mommy and daddy and he doesn't have to work. He has 24 hours a day other guy has 16. So in fairness, since that's what this is all about, we should all have a limit to how long we should be able to play.
Maybe you should read my posts slip. I've never said anything about the fairness of gold buying. Personally, I wouldn't do it and I don't like the effect it has, but I understand that it's a fact of life. Hm, what are some other facts of life? Bah, why even bother... I was certain your ignorance would continue unabated, and I was right.
If anyone here has ever played golf as a member of a country club, or joined a bowling league, or for that matter, bet on a horse at a racetrack you'd have run into a system called "handicapping".
These games/sports/gambling venues all realize that since people/animals can't all be equally good (physically, mentally) at a game its really sort of impossible to have a valid competition between them, especially when you want to keep it at a non-professional level. (pro sports are different of course)
So, to make things more equal, they install a handicap system which involves giving players free strokes, or extra pins or weighting of a horse if his or her jockey is lighter than another which has the effect of making it possible for the less able player to beat the "good" player (who might practice more, because they have more free time) on a given Sunday.
Now truthfully, they do still give an edge to the more talented player, most bowling leagues only handicap at 80 or 90 percent of average (studies have shown it would have to be about 105% to really make things perfectly equal) and in golf they don't let the lesser player record his full score when computing his average, they cap the limit of strokes they can take on certain holes to +2, and overall a handicap never exceeds 36 strokes, even if the bad golfers average exceeds 108. (72 being par, +36 strokes)
Weight in horses is even more simple, jockey A weighs 120 pounds, Jockey B weights 115 pounds, horse that Jockey B rides has 5 pounds of weight added to his saddle.
So, think of people buying gold as sort of a handicap system that the players have figured out how to use to equalize this non-professional hobby called gaming.
I realize of course, that the TOS doesn't provide for it in most cases, but I view that as a mistake on the part of the developers, for not incorporating a handicap system in to the games, which I feel they should have since its impossible to equalize the amount of time people put into playing them (the only real factor in almost any game, forget the concept of skill, this is a game, not a sport)
Or, we could handicap people another way.... limit the amount of playing time for each character to no more than 3 or 4 hours a day (about the most I can afford) sort of like China does... I'd be all for that.
And to those who say, play according to the rules as the game was designed, I say nonsense again. These games need the subscription fees that the gold buyers and sellers pay them, which is one major reason why most game companies only pay lip service to actively pursuing the RMT market, because they really don't care unless it begins to drive away players who don't do it.
Eventually game companies will realize the need to provide for this handicap system, (some like SOE and CCP already do) and then these games will really begin to become more balanced to the players who don't have the time to spend in them..... which is a reward system (better gear for more time played) that never should have been programmed into the game mechanics in the first place,
Sure, a person who plays all day and develops legitimate skill (taking the dart throwing example used earlier) deserves to be better than another. But if playing all day resulted in you earning a better sets of darts than me, that's just plain wrong and I see no problem in a person 'buying' a better set of darts to remain competitive. Sure, they'd still lack in the skills that come only from lots of practice, but they would have a chance to win on some occasions, as equipment differences wouldn't come into the equation.
Which bring us back to the argument, games should not be designed to directly reward players with better items/money/gear just because they can spend more time on them.....that's the real flawed mechanic and will never go away until games are changed to not do this.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do have something against these damn gold farmers! I play EQ2 and if anyone else does they know this annoying little thing they do! They make new characters with names such as "Ddashduad" and they randomly /tell players with long long 6-7 lines of trying to sell their gold and giving me their long arse website telling me how I can get powerleveled or w/e and it simply annoys the crap out of me. It takes up a crapload of my textlog and I get these tells once an hour or more. ALSO, you can't /ignore them because its always from a different person with a new name of scrambled up random letters! so there, I hate these guys and they do hurt my gameplay to an extent.
Hi! My name is paper. Nerf scissors, rock is fine. MMORPG = Mostly Men Online Roleplaying Girls http://www.MichaelLuckhardt.com
Totally ignoring the content of the article for a moment... I'm sure I've read the self same post somewhere before, not the article in the NY Times, but post this all started from, and it was at the very least a few weeks back! Anyone know where this would have been posted originally???
Comments
As for examples of game being destroyed by massive inflation.. a prime example of this is Final Fantasy XI ... gils was so over inflated its almost worthless and takes millions of gil to even buy the cheapest decent equipment... of course Squre-Enix fixed this by banning thousands of accounts and removing billions of gil from the economy. Another example is the game Ragnarok Online. You can also consider EQ and EQ2, Lineage 1 and 2, damaged by massive inflation until the developers decided to take action by banning botters, farmers and removing virtual currency out of the game. Forcing a developer's hand into taking action means there's something seriously wrong with the activities of some people. Massive inflation is bad, it forces new players to buy gold to remain competitive, its an endless destructive cycle.
Can only affect games with a weak design.
If gold farmers can't hurt your game, it is simply because the design of the game is that weak, and you should just focus on a better gaming experience. Instancing remove all negatives aspect from the gold farmers on the hunting side...and on the inflation side, if you have endless supplies of everything provided at a fixed price, the prices can't inflate above these...so again, with a good design, they are harmless.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Actually slipcarb, everyone does have the same 24 hours. I'll let you know as soon as I figure out how to extend my personal day to 36 hours so we can be on equal footing.
As far as your thoughts on items, do you mean to suggest that all MMOs should institute a policy where every single character has the exact same gear? Because that's certainly the end result of your belief that if someone has better items than you, he or she must be cheating. Meh, I'm done trying to explain basic logic to you. I'm sure you will fail to understand yet again.
First, as Dan pointed out... the people farming the gold aren't quite as poorly off as compared to some of their brethren....just more exploited workers that help feed our consumer economy, and I'm thinking not that bad of a life compared to some others in China....
Alot was said about how gold selling makes the game unfair for players who don't partake in it..... very true... but I think letting people play the game more than 3 hours a day (my normal maximum) is unfair as well. I guess game developers should put in governors to keep everything even. (yeah, right). In fact, that there are people who can play 10+ hours a day boggles my mind and makes me wonder why we don't have them working in a salt mine somewhere just to keep them productive.....
Many complaints about inflation, fact is, most games suffer from this and it doesn't take much effort on the part of developers to either develop better cash drains or control the gold selling to reduce the pressure. Blizzard has done a good job in this regard....
What most people fail to realize about inflation, is that while that shiny new toy you want might cost more.... those shiny items you've farmed yourself also sell for more than they should, which helps to balance things out. Add in the factor that farmers always sell the great drops that they get (and more are available in game due to their efforts) so the net effect is to actually drive down the price of rare spawn items, not upward as most people pre-suppose.
I'm not saying it can't get out of control, FFXI is frequently touted as a great example of this, except most people fail to realize some of that pressure was a result of player run crafting cartels and not just due to excessive gold selling. In game dups/exploits normally contribute far more the inflation than gold farming (IMO I realize) from my experience.
Now, the issue of farmers camping rare spawn (and not so rare) areas is a valid complaint..and like others said...having a solid pvp element in the game (even if its RVR) helps control that problem a bit...but don't kid yourself...start attacking farmers, and they'll attack back, so in the end developer intervention probably has to happen...unless dev's program in some sort of instance based content for farmers to hide in.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Alright, so I read the whole artical, and am now in too much "OMFG!" to actally be able to sit though and read all the responses. Even though my respones is going to be ridculusly long. I personaly believe that RMT is cheaing, that it causes in game inflaction and makes the game more difficult for legit players. I also think that it is understandment to say, basicly, that players who have time to "advance" their character the legit way, don't have a lot of money, and that players who have a lot of real life money, don't have the time to to "advance" their character is a "generalization".
I understand that people with more real life money have more advantages in real life, and I don't think a game should be any different, especally a MMORPG, I just think they should be sepperate. It may still silly but I believe that if you have more in game currency, then you should have more advantages in game. I don't believe that because you have more real life money, or are willing to spend real life money, that you should be able to buy more advantages in game, just like I disagree with players who gain in game currency and sell it to gain real life money. I do however understand that it is a basic part of supply and demand, there for it is to be expected, just like the fact if the demand for cheap shoes, backpacks, clothes, ect. so will the demand for cheap labor, usually suppled by sweet shops.
I don't believe that it has ever runied an entire server or that a server had to be "shut down" because of the ecinomic concuquences of RMT. I have heard that it can cause inflaction, but I understand that inflaction is a natural part of life, there for, is going to be a natural part of any currency baced MMORPG. I don't however recall hearing any complainants about servers being "shut down" or any problems along those lines when reading complaints on gold farmers. I have heard the complaining about camping good spots, but I have heard complains about that towards non gold farmers, like the article says, normal players have been know to do that.
I have also heard it makes game play more diffuclut for leget players, either players who find it easier to "advance", players patient enough to take the time to "advance" or even players "who have all day to play". These players might get frustrated at RMT players who think that they can buy their way to the top, or even think that it "creates a balance" since they "go out and earn a living" they don't have the time to "advance", so they should be able to buy them. Another reason I have heard players tend to get frustrated with RMT is because there are players out their who will pay to be power leveled or flat out buy their account, then there are these players with high level character but no idea how to play them.
I also believe that it doesn't always take hours upon hours of grinding or "all day" to "advance", honestly I believe it takes a good system: a good location, a good group, a good race/class, or a combination of all that, something that works with the player. It make take some time to get it right, it may not, it all comes down to how well a player learns to adapit. I mean I know people who are the "breadwinner" or "who actally go out and earn a living", people who don't have "all day to play", who "advance" just fine without RMT. Honestly it seems to me, that it's just a fact of being lazy or impatient, it can take a long time to "advance" if you don't have much time to play (daily, weekly, monthly) but it's not like it's impossible. If the player has the money to "spend a few bucks getting some better gear for his toon" then they should have the money to instead pay that monthly fee a little longer.
Setting all that aside, there was one base that didn't seem to be touched at all in this article, maybe I missed it, or maybe it was excluding these games but to me there is one huge problem with RMT... It's illegal! Not all games make it so, but most of the games in which players complain about RMT, it is. So while, I may have more money and can afford cable, so I have an advantage over someone who is connecting though a 56k, honestly I only see this mattering if I'm PvPing, but as far as I know, that isn't breaking any law or even any rule. Same with someone who can afford dry cleaning, what they are doing is completly legal.
If a player doesn't like being "forced to pay a monthly fee" , for a game that "requires insane invesments of time", that they don't have or that they don't want to keep paying that fee on a game that will take time to"advance", or even if they think that they need to "advance" quickly to "compete" with others, why don't you just go play a different game. There are differenty types of MMORPG's out, plunty of which not only condone you spending real life money to "advance", but some that actally offer it. There are ones in which players aren't "forced to pay a monthly fee" and even ones that are free to download. Then there are also ones in which players don't need to "compete" with another player who might have more time to "advance" then them.
On my last note, shouldn't reward reflect work. So basicly, RMT is ok for in game balance because it lets people with money but no time, have advantages in game, while gold farming is ok for... what real life balance for those people who play all day but have no money, have advantages in real life...
Dee Dee Dee!
No, I did not mean to make that poll so, one sided.
Yes, I am a moron and can't figure out how to edit my poll.
And, sorry for the long post, I don't know when to shut up.
Dee Dee Dee!
I agree Clea's long post.
EULA are rules on the game if you violate the rules you are cheating. Its that simple.
RMT promotes an out of control economy.
If companies made less tedious games I think we woul'd see less farming. Alternatively companies could offer bounties on reporting gold sellers; free month of game play for reporting someone who is selling gold, or maybe just free gold.
I'm not sure I understand why editorials are written on how a game's EULA shouldn't prohibit the things it prohibits. I mean, sure, you can argue a point until you're blue in the face, but bottom line, it's not your decision. It's like renting a house to someone. It's the owner's call whether people are able to have pets or not, and no rationalization on the renter's part makes a darned bit of difference. The reason is because the owner maintains the home, he owns the home, and the renter is just paying to occupy space in the home as long as they abide by the rules of the lease they sign.
All that aside, sure, I can agree that there's a point to Dan's argument, but the point is moot, it's not his decision, or mine, as to whether this activity should be allowed. It's up to the gaming companies. Maybe these little articles will create some new economy based on in game economies which are legitimate and permitted in the EULA. Only time will tell. However, I'm willing to bet that any ideas brought forth by Dan or any of us have already been considered by the people who can actually allow such things to occur, legally.
In WoW I only bother the macro running farmers. I usually run after them for a bit and tag anything they are about to shoot. Easy XP and loot (and if they're killing beasts, skins too)
In EvE Online, gold farmers are generally trespassing in 0.0 so they are shot on sight as a rule, just like anyone else not 'blue'. If I see a sweatshop in Empire, I may loot a few cans and report them. Why? Because they are in my region and I'm a miner myself. If they start selling ore in bulk, they're screwing up the prices and costing me ISK
Overall a good article, just think they dropped the ball going on about "Dry-cleaners" and shit. I play mmorpg's to escape real life issues so i don't understand why everything from RL should also apply in a game.
Professional atheletes are allowed to use drugs, to improve their performance, right?
The laundromat comparizon is just stupid. Compare with other games or sports. Breaking rules is cheating and, in the case of buying MMOG gold, provides an unfair advantage over others.
I think a pvp/rvr system more like the upcoming WAR is better. In that game, you can kill anyone on the opposing side and loot them, but the dead player loses self respect (important in my opinion) not his gear. That way people kep coming back and don't go offline in a huff or have to go grind somewhere to get more gear... and they can wear their best stuff to look pretty even as corpses -- very important
The way to make botters and selling gold obsolete is simple: play WAR or other games that are not gear-centric and stop chasing epic gear. As long as there is uber BOE stuff that gives an advantage over other players in a game, there will be people willing to pay real money to get it.
______________
Mark E. Cooper
AKA Tohrment
Proud member of Damned Souls since 2007.
http://www.damnedsouls.eu
All you whinners ,about how gold farmers destroy your games ,are pathetic. There has not been a single game without farmers, So just STFU, unfortunatley for you guys WOW was not the first MMORPG. as the article states ,play on a PvP server; or actually better yet ,quit playing WOW , since all gold farmers are in that game nowadays.I went back to EQ1 and no problems there!
WoW has the most farmers since is the game with the most demand.(why is beyond me). and Gold farmers do not screw up economy , the Elitists guilds do by charging way to much for trivial items which in turn force people to actually go out and buy gold, and the 10 year olds that undercut everyone in the auction house or bazaar to prices that actually are way too low because they believe that everyone else is trying to rip people off. so we have the 2 extremes. Lets face it the Demand for the Gold needs to exist before the farmers sell the gold.
I have no problem with them at all , if you have the cash to spend in make believe items then more power to you. all the rest bitch and whine because
A)they are jealous ,they cant afford it.
B)They are so naive , that actually believe that they suck because of gold farmers , when in fact ,farmers or not they are not competitive enough to play a simple game of economics.
Now one thing that they use to ruin the game is when they spam. Games should go back to the old UO style chat system
You wasted your first post on calling people who expect their games to be played by the rules whiners and pathetic?
You managed not to post for two years being registered here. Maybe you should stick to that plan.
Apparently you never played Lineage 2. Full scale PVP doesnt stop them. They don't care about losing xp or gear. They just go buy new gear and go back to where they were farming before. They do however want you to suffer the penalty of a PK so they can kill you and get whatever gear you have on you.
BTW, proprietary selling of anything related to an MMORPG is against the company EULA and thier TOS. Plain and simple they should be banned for selling intellectual property that does not belong to them.
Hey Mr Fortier instead of using an analogy of a guy going to the dry cleaners why don't you try something like this: You apply for a job with a prominent company and so do several other people. A few weeks go buy and you get a letter in the mail saying that you did not receive the job oh well so sorry. A few months later you hear through the grapevine that Joe Snuffy, someone you knew that applied for the job, got the job becuase he used his millionare father to BUY his way into the job. Makes you feel like a winner doesn't it!
Seems to me that games like WoW with it's huge non-US player bases should be pleased to have farmers.
I mean really, Just how much of those player bases are just your average run-of-the-mill gamers and how much is/are dedicated hard core farmers trying to make a living. They have to be a solid chunk of that subscriptions list and help to keep the games doing well in the ratings. These guys are there all the time, always PAYING their subscription fees...Game Companies should welcome that kind of subscriber base.
Yes, they are also totally screwing the economy, making it impossible for the average gamer to afford in-game items. I played FFXI for over 2 years....I couldn't afford most of the cool thinkgs after awhile. I remember when Hawker +1 daggers were about 250k Gil....now they're a few Mil. Simply put, they put way to much currency into circulation, and inflation goes through the roof.
Like all things, the blame falls squarely into the lap of those who purchase virtual currency and items for real cash. But that is a fuction of greed, native to all humans i guess. While we cannot extract that shortcoming from people, we can fight to remove the enabler...in this case...RMTs.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
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What happened to analyzing my reason for playing MMO's? Did my answer completly blow away whatever response you had? Buying gold isn't cheating. Buying a character on ebay isn't cheating. Everything people do that you don't like isn't cheating. I DON'T BUY GOLD. Do I need to repeat that? You're a loot whore who gets outbid on shiny purples and now you're bitter. Go buy some gold if it bothers you that much.
If someone has to work (yes adults have to work) then there's 8 hours right there that they don't have to play with. Now you take Billy fatass in his parents basement who lives off mommy and daddy and he doesn't have to work. He has 24 hours a day other guy has 16. So in fairness, since that's what this is all about, we should all have a limit to how long we should be able to play.
You can't blame the people who farm. If you believe the game mechanics that encourage "farming" are bad, then you need to place the blame where it belongs. That means you blame the developers who created the system, not the players who work the system. You cannot blame a gold farmer for working the system anymore than you can blame a powergamer. The only difference between powergamers and gold farmers is that powergamers do it for their own in game benefit, and gold farmers do it for the in game benefit of others. What are you actually mad at? The fact that the gold farmer has devised a way to make money while playing a game? If that's the case then do you hate all professional athletes?
As for the "unfair" cries, the article was quite correct. It no more unfair for a player to pay extra for broadband and a high end computer, than it is for a player to pay extra for in game currency or items. It is the exact same thing. If you die because of game crippling lag due to slow connection or your crappy PC do you cry about the inequities of life and online gaming? Do you boo and hiss at the Cable guy when he comes to instal cable internet at your neighbors house? I mean the cable guy is going the same thing the gold farmer is doing. He's giving a player an edge in gaming over those people who don't have broadband. Why don't we moan endlessly about the cable guys on MMO forums too? How about the PC salesmen too?
As for casual gamers who in addition to having limited play time also can't afford to pay for in game currency and items, well what can I tell you. Real life is not fair, why expect that to be different in gaming? Its not our fault that you suck at life. We can't be held accountable because you can't succeed enough in real life to be able to have either the time or money to be able to succeed in virtual life. The only thing I can say to people in this boat is either accept your position at the bottom of the MMO food chain or stop playing MMOs. Hell if you have no money you probably shouldn't be paying a montly fee for a video game anyway.
If you want to engage in RMT then find a game that supports it. And stay out of the games that don't.
If someone has to work (yes adults have to work) then there's 8 hours right there that they don't have to play with. Now you take Billy fatass in his parents basement who lives off mommy and daddy and he doesn't have to work. He has 24 hours a day other guy has 16. So in fairness, since that's what this is all about, we should all have a limit to how long we should be able to play.
Maybe you should read my posts slip. I've never said anything about the fairness of gold buying. Personally, I wouldn't do it and I don't like the effect it has, but I understand that it's a fact of life. Hm, what are some other facts of life? Bah, why even bother... I was certain your ignorance would continue unabated, and I was right.
If anyone here has ever played golf as a member of a country club, or joined a bowling league, or for that matter, bet on a horse at a racetrack you'd have run into a system called "handicapping".
These games/sports/gambling venues all realize that since people/animals can't all be equally good (physically, mentally) at a game its really sort of impossible to have a valid competition between them, especially when you want to keep it at a non-professional level. (pro sports are different of course)
So, to make things more equal, they install a handicap system which involves giving players free strokes, or extra pins or weighting of a horse if his or her jockey is lighter than another which has the effect of making it possible for the less able player to beat the "good" player (who might practice more, because they have more free time) on a given Sunday.
Now truthfully, they do still give an edge to the more talented player, most bowling leagues only handicap at 80 or 90 percent of average (studies have shown it would have to be about 105% to really make things perfectly equal) and in golf they don't let the lesser player record his full score when computing his average, they cap the limit of strokes they can take on certain holes to +2, and overall a handicap never exceeds 36 strokes, even if the bad golfers average exceeds 108. (72 being par, +36 strokes)
Weight in horses is even more simple, jockey A weighs 120 pounds, Jockey B weights 115 pounds, horse that Jockey B rides has 5 pounds of weight added to his saddle.
So, think of people buying gold as sort of a handicap system that the players have figured out how to use to equalize this non-professional hobby called gaming.
I realize of course, that the TOS doesn't provide for it in most cases, but I view that as a mistake on the part of the developers, for not incorporating a handicap system in to the games, which I feel they should have since its impossible to equalize the amount of time people put into playing them (the only real factor in almost any game, forget the concept of skill, this is a game, not a sport)
Or, we could handicap people another way.... limit the amount of playing time for each character to no more than 3 or 4 hours a day (about the most I can afford) sort of like China does... I'd be all for that.
And to those who say, play according to the rules as the game was designed, I say nonsense again. These games need the subscription fees that the gold buyers and sellers pay them, which is one major reason why most game companies only pay lip service to actively pursuing the RMT market, because they really don't care unless it begins to drive away players who don't do it.
Eventually game companies will realize the need to provide for this handicap system, (some like SOE and CCP already do) and then these games will really begin to become more balanced to the players who don't have the time to spend in them..... which is a reward system (better gear for more time played) that never should have been programmed into the game mechanics in the first place,
Sure, a person who plays all day and develops legitimate skill (taking the dart throwing example used earlier) deserves to be better than another. But if playing all day resulted in you earning a better sets of darts than me, that's just plain wrong and I see no problem in a person 'buying' a better set of darts to remain competitive. Sure, they'd still lack in the skills that come only from lots of practice, but they would have a chance to win on some occasions, as equipment differences wouldn't come into the equation.
Which bring us back to the argument, games should not be designed to directly reward players with better items/money/gear just because they can spend more time on them.....that's the real flawed mechanic and will never go away until games are changed to not do this.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do have something against these damn gold farmers! I play EQ2 and if anyone else does they know this annoying little thing they do! They make new characters with names such as "Ddashduad" and they randomly /tell players with long long 6-7 lines of trying to sell their gold and giving me their long arse website telling me how I can get powerleveled or w/e and it simply annoys the crap out of me. It takes up a crapload of my textlog and I get these tells once an hour or more. ALSO, you can't /ignore them because its always from a different person with a new name of scrambled up random letters! so there, I hate these guys and they do hurt my gameplay to an extent.
Hi! My name is paper. Nerf scissors, rock is fine.
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Totally ignoring the content of the article for a moment... I'm sure I've read the self same post somewhere before, not the article in the NY Times, but post this all started from, and it was at the very least a few weeks back! Anyone know where this would have been posted originally???