Originally posted by Finwe "If you have any health problems now or have potential for them in the future, or care about anyone facing health issues, you're decision in this election is already made for you. You have to vote for Kerry. Kerry has a good plan. Bush's health policy is literally killing people." Ya! LET US VOTE KERRY! He has a plan alright! Raise taxes as high as he can get them, finish clintons plan for trying to make this a socialistic country. And he'll finish bringing it down to boot! Go kerry! Go kerry! Kerry's plan is simple. Hes going to get you to pay for my healthcare!
Kerry IS going to make those that make those that earn more than $300,000 a year pay for health care for this society.
Why?
Because a capitalist economy does not work efficiently with a unhealthy population. If the work force is sickly, it's not productive. That lost productivity is FAR MORE EXPENSIVE than the costs of the Kerry health care plan. Investments in health care for the work force are a very good investment for a capitalist society. It will increase economic growth. That increases profits.
You, like most neo-conservatives, wouldn't understand good capitalist macroeconomic management if they were beaten about the head and shoulders with a library of economics books.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
First off, the definition of investment, is not theft.
No matter how good it sounds, taking by force ones money and paying for the care of another is morally bankrupt.
Its stealing, simple and clear. Now it may be hard for people that call themselves liberal, but, a true liberal, will give something of their own through their own free will, and not compell other people through force to give up something that belongs to them.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Wrong. The Alberto Gonzales memo described in basic terms the new White House policy on torturing prisoners, and the Justice Department memo used the Gonzales memo as to firther refine the policy the White House implimented. The evidence? The torture in the picture was done in exactly the way the the Gonzales and Justice Dept. memos told the soldiers to torture prisoners. "...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Once again you choose to ignore facts. The fact is, the White House REJECTED the memo from the justice department, and the final memo (writen well before the prison scandal) sets a clear line on what can be done.
Which leaves us with the latest of the released documents, one dated 16 April 2003.
It is from Donald Rumsfeld and it gives his approval to a new list of questioning methods. These are milder than the previous ones but they still include the following:
Significantly increasing the fear in a detainee. Attacking or insulting the ego of a detainee. The "Mutt and Jeff" approach - nice guy and nasty guy. Changing the diet of a detainee. Changing his sleep pattern. Isolation.
Originally posted by Finwe First off, the definition of investment, is not theft. No matter how good it sounds, taking by force ones money and paying for the care of another is morally bankrupt. Its stealing, simple and clear. Now it may be hard for people that call themselves liberal, but, a true liberal, will give something of their own through their own free will, and not compell other people through force to give up something that belongs to them."The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
No... it's called investing in the common infrastructure a society need for economic development to flourish. There's no difference between paying for a minimum level of health care and providing for a society's common defense.
If you were in charge, road and bridges would be morally bankrupt, too, becasue it's stealing to pay for them.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Originally posted by n2sooners Originally posted by leftie Wrong. The Alberto Gonzales memo described in basic terms the new White House policy on torturing prisoners, and the Justice Department memo used the Gonzales memo as to firther refine the policy the White House implimented. The evidence? The torture in the picture was done in exactly the way the the Gonzales and Justice Dept. memos told the soldiers to torture prisoners. "...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy Once again you choose to ignore facts. The fact is, the White House REJECTED the memo from the justice department, and the final memo (writen well before the prison scandal) sets a clear line on what can be done.Which leaves us with the latest of the released documents, one dated 16 April 2003. It is from Donald Rumsfeld and it gives his approval to a new list of questioning methods. These are milder than the previous ones but they still include the following: Significantly increasing the fear in a detainee. Attacking or insulting the ego of a detainee. The "Mutt and Jeff" approach - nice guy and nasty guy. Changing the diet of a detainee. Changing his sleep pattern. [*]Isolation.
That memo wasn't issues until long after the policy of torture was underway, and the Pentagon and State Dept. were having fits over it's implimentation. I posted two articles proving that fact from the Australian paper and the Boston Globe earlier today.
Those two articles prove the torture plan was put into effect. You're case of denial is your baggage, not ours.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Is it just me or does anyone think all this talk of memos, or who condones what, has very little to do with what actually takes place inside a prison camp? Any prison camp? What the legislators and leaders of a nation believe is correct, acceptable and legal can be far divorced from what the people running the place and in charge of the prisoners do.
Government departments and legal bodies can send as many documents to each other and hold as many meetings and write as many papers on it as they want, but at best it will only have a limited impact. George Bush may be telling the truth about what measures were sanctioned, he might not. I don't have any reason to doubt him, to be honest, because the government wouldn't need to sanction torture in order for it to take place. I doubt very much that there's a memo kicking around the place saying, "yep guys, get out the thumbscrews and testicle clamps - we're having a party! Oh and by the way leak this document to the press".
Whether through anger, sadism, boredom, following orders, or a genuine belief that it was neccessary, some prison wardens (or whatever you want to call them) will have tortured some of the prisoners. It would have happened if the US government condoned it, it would have happened if they didn't.
Much as I'd like to wax pompously on how torture is bad (duh!) and much as I hope I would never do anything like that, I've never had the opportunity to subject someone to torture, never been ordered to subject someone to torture and I've never believed someone might know information of such vital importance that I'd go to any lengths to extract it from them. I should probably thank any gods that are listening for that large mercy. But not half as much as I should thank them for never having been on the receiving end.
My number one bugbear with religion and nationalism is that people (people, not the religions or the nations) use them as excuses to subject others to suffering and brutality in the name of righteousness. If the people who have commited the acts of torture see it as a neccessary evil to reach their goals, that I can just about deal with. If they want to try and pass it off as "justice" or in any way morally acceptable, that sticks in my throat a hell of a lot worse.
There, I'm done pontificating on a subject I actually have very little experience of. Who wants to go next?
Originally posted by ReverendDan Is it just me or does anyone think all this talk of memos who condones what has anything to do with what actually takes place inside a prison camp? Any prison camp? What the legislators and leaders of a nation believe is correct, acceptable and legal can be far divorced from what the people running the place and in charge of the prisoners do.Government departments and legal bodies can send as many documents to each other and hold as many meetings and write as many papers on it as they want, but at best it will only have a limited impact. George Bush may be telling the truth about what measures were sanctioned, he might not. I don't have any reason to doubt him, to be honest, because the government wouldn't need to sanction torture in order for it to take place. I doubt very much that there's a memo kicking around the place saying, "yep guys, get out the thumbscrews and testicle clamps - we're having a party! Oh and by the way leak this document to the press".Whether through anger, sadism, boredom, following orders, or a genuine belief that it was neccessary, some prison wardens (or whatever you want to call them) will have tortured some of the prisoners. It would have happened if the US government condoned it, it would have happened if they didn't.Much as I'd like to wax pompously on how torture is bad (duh!) and much as I hope I would never do anything like that, I've never had the opportunity to subject someone to torture, never been ordered to subject someone to torture and I've never believed someone might know information of such vital importance that I'd go to any lengths to extract it from them.My number one bugbear with religion and nationalism is that people (people, not the religions or the nations) use them as excuses to subject others to suffering and brutality in the name of righteousness. If the people who have commited the acts of torture see it as a neccessary evil to reach their goals, that I can just about deal with. If they want to try and pass it off as "justice" or in any way morally acceptable, that sticks in my throat a hell of a lot worse.There, I'm done pontifacting on a subject I actually have very little experience of. Who wants to go next?
The reason these particular acts of torture are so obviously ordered from neo-cons in charge is because of all the acts that attempted to sexually humiliate these Abu Ghirab prisoners. This is all based on one book called "The Arab Mind" by Raphael Patai, a cultural anthropologist. This book includes a 25-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression. It's the neo-con bible regarding Arabic populations. All this sexual humiliation is NOT what Army PFCs would do if they were stressed out and started taking their frustration on the prisoners. This phenomenon hasn't happened before. When prison guards in the US go off on prisoners in US prisons, they beat them up. They don't strip them naked, pile them up, and force them to masterbate in front of females. That crap is straight out of Patai's book. That means the neo-cons in DC ordered it.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Originally posted by leftie The reason these particular acts of torture are so obviously ordered from neo-cons in charge is because of all the acts that attempted to sexually humiliate these Abu Ghirab prisoners. This is all based on one book called "The Arab Mind" by Raphael Patai, a cultural anthropologist. This book includes a 25-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression. It's the neo-con bible regarding Arabic populations. All this sexual humiliation is NOT what Army PFCs would do if they were stressed out and started taking their frustration on the prisoners. This phenomenon hasn't happened before. When prison guards in the US go off on prisoners in US prisons, they beat them up. They don't strip them naked, pile them up, and force them to masterbate in front of females. That crap is straight out of Patai's book. That means the neo-cons in DC ordered it."...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Is that so?
No way some enlisted man, or CIA guy over there in the Abu Graib prison new something about Islam and decided it would be a great way to humiliate them, right? Only a politician or a politicians advisor could possibly know that stuff.
No way in hell, did some SGT in the Army ask a muslim on our side, "What is the most humiliating thing a person could do to you?", and then go do it to a prisoner...
Just no way a Joe Schmoe could figure something as difficult as this out. Had to be a politician back in DC. And hell, must have been George Bush. No way somebody else could have ever figured it out...
Give me a frickin break. The general populace has known this stuff about islam and muslims for a long time.
Wrap their dead bodies in pig intestines and they don't get to go to heaven. Got this from the Russians just a few months back...
Bottom line is, it does not take much intelligence to figure out what humiliates a culture. Especially when you are living among them.
Originally posted by TaskyZZ Originally posted by leftie The reason these particular acts of torture are so obviously ordered from neo-cons in charge is because of all the acts that attempted to sexually humiliate these Abu Ghirab prisoners. This is all based on one book called "The Arab Mind" by Raphael Patai, a cultural anthropologist. This book includes a 25-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression. It's the neo-con bible regarding Arabic populations. All this sexual humiliation is NOT what Army PFCs would do if they were stressed out and started taking their frustration on the prisoners. This phenomenon hasn't happened before. When prison guards in the US go off on prisoners in US prisons, they beat them up. They don't strip them naked, pile them up, and force them to masterbate in front of females. That crap is straight out of Patai's book. That means the neo-cons in DC ordered it."...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Is that so?
No way some enlisted man, or CIA guy over there in the Abu Graib prison new something about Islam and decided it would be a great way to humiliate them, right? Only a politician or a politicians advisor could possibly know that stuff.
No way in hell, did some SGT in the Army ask a muslim on our side, "What is the most humiliating thing a person could do to you?", and then go do it to a prisoner...
Just no way a Joe Schmoe could figure something as difficult as this out. Had to be a politician back in DC. And hell, must have been George Bush. No way somebody else could have ever figured it out...
Give me a frickin break. The general populace has known this stuff about islam and muslims for a long time.
Wrap their dead bodies in pig intestines and they don't get to go to heaven. Got this from the Russians just a few months back...
Bottom line is, it does not take much intelligence to figure out what humiliates a culture. Especially when you are living among them.
Memos from neo-cons in the White House that order torture appear, and then the torture is done exactly in the manner describe by neo-cons favorite book on Arabic populations and you claim it's all a weird coincidence?
RIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Suuuuuuure it is....
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Originally posted by leftie Memos from neo-cons in the White House that order torture appear, and then the torture is done exactly in the manner describe by neo-cons favorite book on Arabic populations and you claim it's all a weird coincidence?RIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Suuuuuuure it is.... "...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
OK... So show me a piece of this memo that says:
"Make them strip naked and have them pile up in a pyramid shape..."
Show me a piece of this memo that says:
"Have a prisoner strip naked, make him get on the ground on all fours, and then have a girls lead him around by a leash..."
Apples & oranges pal. I use roads and bridges, I have no problem with taxation that is commonly used by all. Roads & bridges are done through excise taxes, and indirect taxes, not income taxes. If we're going to pay for healthcare lets throw in gasoline too, everyone has a right to transportation. Also, electric bills, everyone has a right for electricity. Lets go ahead and use housing, food, and clothing as well. Can you think of anything else I need to pay for, for you to use?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
lol, leftie...are you sure you're not a citizen from another country because you make Michael Moore look like Rush Limbaugh.
I never seen any one person to have such hatred against any American official as I do you. It's more like you had a rather bad upbringing and innate problems with authority figures than you do with disagreeing with politics.
Having a difference of opinion is def. your right as an American and you def. use that right in ways that I just have to say "wow"
As a person who served in the U.S. Army as an officer I thank God everyday I wake up that Bush is in Office rather than Gore. Man, if 9/11 happened in a Gore office we would have had 13 trucks of Ben and Jerry's Ice cream sent to Ben Laden as a peace offering and CNN would still be getting their high ratings from personal interviews with the mad man
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Originally posted by Finwe Apples & oranges pal. I use roads and bridges, I have no problem with taxation that is commonly used by all. Roads & bridges are done through excise taxes, and indirect taxes, not income taxes. If we're going to pay for healthcare lets throw in gasoline too, everyone has a right to transportation. Also, electric bills, everyone has a right for electricity. Lets go ahead and use housing, food, and clothing as well. Can you think of anything else I need to pay for, for you to use?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
No, it's not.
You don't personally USE fighter jets, bombers, aircraft carriers, nuclear subs, or recon sattelites, either. You're paying income taxes on those. There is also no difference between different taxes. Money one can't spend on beer is money one can't beer, no matter what method was used to make that sum unuseable for purchasing beer. Saying there is a difference is SPIN used by the greedy to justify their rants that someone other than themselves should pay for the benefits they recieve from the American way of life. The American way of life requires money be spent on maintainance of basic common necessities, and all the citizens who benefit and profit from those commons necessities have a duty to pay to maintain them.
If YOU don't want to contribute your fair share to ensure a healthy American economy, YOU can move to Somalia where you'll have all the liberty you like from government intervention. There's no govenment to intervene in your affairs there, and you'll be in orgasmic glee, reveling in your personal freedom as you dodge bullets from the armed gangs that roam the Mogadishu streets there equally free from govenment theft of their assets as you would be.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Originally posted by En1Gma lol, leftie...are you sure you're not a citizen from another country because you make Michael Moore look like Rush Limbaugh. I never seen any one person to have such hatred against any American official as I do you. It's more like you had a rather bad upbringing and innate problems with authority figures than you do with disagreeing with politics. Having a difference of opinion is def. your right as an American and you def. use that right in ways that I just have to say "wow" As a person who served in the U.S. Army as an officer I thank God everyday I wake up that Bush is in Office rather than Gore. Man, if 9/11 happened in a Gore office we would have had 13 trucks of Ben and Jerry's Ice cream sent to Ben Laden as a peace offering and CNN would still be getting their high ratings from personal interviews with the mad man
The difference between you and me is that I post facts based on evidence that I post links to, and you rant personal insults based on no facts supported by no evidence. I know the Army didn't allow you to approach duties in the same manner in which you post here. Matter of fact, I suspect the closest you got to being an Army officer was way too many hours of playing America's Army and other FPS games. People who have no concept of critical inquiry don't get officer slots, or at very least, get washed out very quickly if they snuck through the filtering process.
By the way, 9/11 wouldn't have happened if Gore had been President.. Gore would have put the airports on the same alert Clinton did 3 times when the they noticed the terrorists talking traffic go up, and the software the airport agents used since the Clinton admin when under alert that screened the reservation system would have flagged the 18 cash paid one way tickets with Arabic named male passengers travelling alone. The 9/11 hijackers wouldn't have made it past the check in desk.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
This disasterous torture policy ordered by White House has caused us to look so bad in the eyes of the world thatb US civillians being beheaded causes no sympathy in foreign lands.
There is always sympathy in death. The world doesn't care which country that civilian belongs to, all they care about is that they died. You can never know unless you ask a foreigner.
"You are the only person talking about "panties on one's head." Therefore, that's YOUR perversion, not ours."
LOL no I just asked a question that you keep avoiding. The only perversion is your prospective. Which in turn is why you refuse to answer the question. LOL
**** "Your words, Galoot...
"Read it again. They said they found no evidence that Saddam and AQ worked together in regard to 9-11. That just means that they haven't found any not that there isn't any."
You defend the tortures at Abu Ghirab even that YOU admit they have no evidence of anyone being guilty of anything. ****
Hmmm let me see, are you trying to say that apples are really oranges in disguise? If not show me where I defended torture of any kind let alone anyone having guilt or lack thereof. LOL I'm still waiting LOL
"Even The White House hasn't tried to justify torture of possible Ansar Al Islam members"
They haven't tried to institute National Kumquat Day either. So does that make it even in your mind? LOL
So let me ask you again:
Show me where I said anything even remotely close to saying that I think, feel or otherwise condone the torture of "the entire civilian population" in any way shape or form.
Oh and one more question, what color is the sky in your world?
"While we may very well live in a Republic, I wasn't aware that it was illegal to criticize the Administration, or it's choices, at war, or otherwise. Nor do I see how doing so gives aid, or relief to the enemy."
it's perfectly constitutional to criticize any administration
it's a pain in the rear end to see it on 10 pages of text in this thread.
Its not a pain because it's here in this thread.
Its a pain because for the last 7 pages people have been arguing the same freakin argument and as in any forum, politics only pisses off people and does nothing constructive whatsoever but to harbor resentment and flames and trolling.
The Thread was constructive up to page 3 but after that its like:
Forum Guy: blah blah blah guns are bad
Forum Guy tw neo-con sucks death to all neo-cons and ban all guns
Forum Guy three: blah blah blah guns are good
Forum Guy tw >inserts three pages of liberal hyped media here< SEE SEE proof!!!
Forum Guy four: >inserts three pages of conservative hyped media here< SEE SEE you're an idiot
Forum Guy one: blah blah blah blah
Forum Guy tw neo cons sucks and so do their guns
forum guy five: >inserts chart here to prove firearms are as bad in UK as in US<
Forum Guy tw defends peace yet cusses out 90% of his forum mates
Forum guy one: blah blah blah blah blah
now imagine this stretched to 10 pages in length.
lol, this thread has run its course of life and needs to be locked. Heck any thread that remotely touches on religion and politics should be locked in a heartbeat.
Thankfully the MODs and Admin here are seriously considering this to be the case:
Well I have nothing against any of those type of arguments as long as they stay polite and mature. Which I think I've really never flamed in any of them.
But I suppose when you have somone saying neo-con dumbasses that just spew BS, amongst other inflammatory remarks, when they should probably be talking/take out their anger at a punchingbag, or physiatrist. Well. Maybe it should be locked.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by Galoot "You are the only person talking about "panties on one's head." Therefore, that's YOUR perversion, not ours."LOL no I just asked a question that you keep avoiding. The only perversion is your prospective. Which in turn is why you refuse to answer the question. LOL**** "Your words, Galoot..."Read it again. They said they found no evidence that Saddam and AQ worked together in regard to 9-11. That just means that they haven't found any not that there isn't any." You defend the tortures at Abu Ghirab even that YOU admit they have no evidence of anyone being guilty of anything. ****Hmmm let me see, are you trying to say that apples are really oranges in disguise? If not show me where I defended torture of any kind let alone anyone having guilt or lack thereof. LOL I'm still waiting LOL "Even The White House hasn't tried to justify torture of possible Ansar Al Islam members"They haven't tried to institute National Kumquat Day either. So does that make it even in your mind? LOLSo let me ask you again:Show me where I said anything even remotely close to saying that I think, feel or otherwise condone the torture of "the entire civilian population" in any way shape or form.Oh and one more question, what color is the sky in your world?
Your standard of evidence of guilt of Iraqi civilians regarding connections to Al Queda is this..."They said they found no evidence that Saddam and AQ worked together in regard to 9-11. That just means that they haven't found any not that there isn't any"
EVERY CITIZEN OF IRAQ THAT HAS NO CONNECTION TO AL-QUEDA ia an Iraqi " they haven't found any (evidence) not that there isn't any (evidence)." According to that standard, every citizen of Iraq is just another person they will find a connection to Al-Queda for, but just have found the evidence to the connection yet. Everybody IN THE WORLD meets that standard of evidence, for that matter. You just think everyone is a suspicious person you'll eventually find the evidence to nail.
That standard means the US can torture everyone in THE WORLD your book, because YOU SAY the US DOESN'T NEED EVIDENCE TO PROVE THINGS BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE THE US NEEDS PROBABLY EXISTS AND WILL EVENTUALLY SHOW UP.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
[quote]Originally posted by En1Gma [b]it's perfectly constitutional to criticize any administration it's a pain in the rear end to see it on 10 pages of text in this thread. Its not a pain because it's here in this thread. Its a pain because for the last 7 pages people have been arguing the same freakin argument and as in any forum, politics only pisses off people and does nothing constructive whatsoever but to harbor resentment and flames and trolling. The Thread was constructive up to page 3 but after that its like: Forum Guy: blah blah blah guns are bad Forum Guy tw neo-con sucks death to all neo-cons and ban all guns Forum Guy three: blah blah blah guns are good Forum Guy tw >inserts three pages of liberal hyped media here< SEE SEE proof!!! Forum Guy four: >inserts three pages of conservative hyped media here< SEE SEE you're an idiot Forum Guy one: blah blah blah blah Forum Guy tw neo cons sucks and so do their guns forum guy five: >inserts chart here to prove firearms are as bad in UK as in US< Forum Guy tw defends peace yet cusses out 90% of his forum mates Forum guy one: blah blah blah blah blah now imagine this stretched to 10 pages in length. lol, this thread has run its course of life and needs to be locked. Heck any thread that remotely touches on religion and politics should be locked in a heartbeat. Thankfully the MODs and Admin here are seriously considering this to be the case: [url=http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/49/loadthread/15641/setstart/1/loadclass/35][/b][/quote]
Why do you keep posting to a thread you swear up and down you want to die?
Because you only want the thread to die on YOUR terms with YOU getting the last word in. That's the real neo-conservative in you, demanding you have the right to silence others whenever you decree, and ranting allowed in non-political threads only when it's you doing the ranting about topics you approve of.
Like I said the last could of times you screamed for the thread to die, if you want the thread to die, don't keep posting on it.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Originally posted by Gnarled Dude you must have a graduate degree in, um. . . cutting & pasting ?
"I can tell you with no ego, this is my finest sword. If, on your journey, you should encounter God. . . . . . God will be cut." - Quentin Tarantino, Kill Bill
lol
"Men speak of natural rights, but I challenge any one to show where in nature any rights existed or were recognized until there was established for their declaration and protection a duly promulgated body of corresponding laws."
(DEFAULT MMORPG PLAYER SIGNATURE, RANDOM QUOTE FROM SOME INTERNET SITE FOUND ON YAHOO SEARCH TO TRY MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK CLEVER)
Originally posted by Galoot "YOU SAY the US DOESN'T NEED EVIDENCE " Really? Where?
Over and over and over again on almost every post on this thread.
I said the 9/11 Commission found there was no evidence whatsoever to indicate a working relationship in any way shape or form at any time between Saddam (Iraq) and Al-Queda. You said...
..."They said they found no evidence that Saddam and AQ worked together in regard to 9-11. That just means that they haven't found any not that there isn't any"
With that ridiculous standard of guilt, the US can point a finger at anyone in the world with any charge, and even if the person is found completely clean, the US can say, "Just because we have no evidence to prove he's guilty doesn't mean that he's innocent. We just haven't found the evidence of his guilt yet.
That standard convicts a defendant 100% of the time with no evidence, and no means to prove one's innocence, EVER.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Comments
Kerry IS going to make those that make those that earn more than $300,000 a year pay for health care for this society.
Why?
Because a capitalist economy does not work efficiently with a unhealthy population. If the work force is sickly, it's not productive. That lost productivity is FAR MORE EXPENSIVE than the costs of the Kerry health care plan. Investments in health care for the work force are a very good investment for a capitalist society. It will increase economic growth. That increases profits.
You, like most neo-conservatives, wouldn't understand good capitalist macroeconomic management if they were beaten about the head and shoulders with a library of economics books.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
First off, the definition of investment, is not theft.
No matter how good it sounds, taking by force ones money and paying for the care of another is morally bankrupt.
Its stealing, simple and clear. Now it may be hard for people that call themselves liberal, but, a true liberal, will give something of their own through their own free will, and not compell other people through force to give up something that belongs to them.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Once again you choose to ignore facts. The fact is, the White House REJECTED the memo from the justice department, and the final memo (writen well before the prison scandal) sets a clear line on what can be done.
No... it's called investing in the common infrastructure a society need for economic development to flourish. There's no difference between paying for a minimum level of health care and providing for a society's common defense.
If you were in charge, road and bridges would be morally bankrupt, too, becasue it's stealing to pay for them.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
That memo wasn't issues until long after the policy of torture was underway, and the Pentagon and State Dept. were having fits over it's implimentation. I posted two articles proving that fact from the Australian paper and the Boston Globe earlier today.
Those two articles prove the torture plan was put into effect. You're case of denial is your baggage, not ours.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Is it just me or does anyone think all this talk of memos, or who condones what, has very little to do with what actually takes place inside a prison camp? Any prison camp? What the legislators and leaders of a nation believe is correct, acceptable and legal can be far divorced from what the people running the place and in charge of the prisoners do.
Government departments and legal bodies can send as many documents to each other and hold as many meetings and write as many papers on it as they want, but at best it will only have a limited impact. George Bush may be telling the truth about what measures were sanctioned, he might not. I don't have any reason to doubt him, to be honest, because the government wouldn't need to sanction torture in order for it to take place. I doubt very much that there's a memo kicking around the place saying, "yep guys, get out the thumbscrews and testicle clamps - we're having a party! Oh and by the way leak this document to the press".
Whether through anger, sadism, boredom, following orders, or a genuine belief that it was neccessary, some prison wardens (or whatever you want to call them) will have tortured some of the prisoners. It would have happened if the US government condoned it, it would have happened if they didn't.
Much as I'd like to wax pompously on how torture is bad (duh!) and much as I hope I would never do anything like that, I've never had the opportunity to subject someone to torture, never been ordered to subject someone to torture and I've never believed someone might know information of such vital importance that I'd go to any lengths to extract it from them. I should probably thank any gods that are listening for that large mercy. But not half as much as I should thank them for never having been on the receiving end.
My number one bugbear with religion and nationalism is that people (people, not the religions or the nations) use them as excuses to subject others to suffering and brutality in the name of righteousness. If the people who have commited the acts of torture see it as a neccessary evil to reach their goals, that I can just about deal with. If they want to try and pass it off as "justice" or in any way morally acceptable, that sticks in my throat a hell of a lot worse.
There, I'm done pontificating on a subject I actually have very little experience of. Who wants to go next?
The reason these particular acts of torture are so obviously ordered from neo-cons in charge is because of all the acts that attempted to sexually humiliate these Abu Ghirab prisoners. This is all based on one book called "The Arab Mind" by Raphael Patai, a cultural anthropologist. This book includes a 25-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression. It's the neo-con bible regarding Arabic populations. All this sexual humiliation is NOT what Army PFCs would do if they were stressed out and started taking their frustration on the prisoners. This phenomenon hasn't happened before. When prison guards in the US go off on prisoners in US prisons, they beat them up. They don't strip them naked, pile them up, and force them to masterbate in front of females. That crap is straight out of Patai's book. That means the neo-cons in DC ordered it.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Is that so?
No way some enlisted man, or CIA guy over there in the Abu Graib prison new something about Islam and decided it would be a great way to humiliate them, right? Only a politician or a politicians advisor could possibly know that stuff.
No way in hell, did some SGT in the Army ask a muslim on our side, "What is the most humiliating thing a person could do to you?", and then go do it to a prisoner...
Just no way a Joe Schmoe could figure something as difficult as this out. Had to be a politician back in DC. And hell, must have been George Bush. No way somebody else could have ever figured it out...
Give me a frickin break. The general populace has known this stuff about islam and muslims for a long time.
Wrap their dead bodies in pig intestines and they don't get to go to heaven. Got this from the Russians just a few months back...
Bottom line is, it does not take much intelligence to figure out what humiliates a culture. Especially when you are living among them.
Is that so?
No way some enlisted man, or CIA guy over there in the Abu Graib prison new something about Islam and decided it would be a great way to humiliate them, right? Only a politician or a politicians advisor could possibly know that stuff.
No way in hell, did some SGT in the Army ask a muslim on our side, "What is the most humiliating thing a person could do to you?", and then go do it to a prisoner...
Just no way a Joe Schmoe could figure something as difficult as this out. Had to be a politician back in DC. And hell, must have been George Bush. No way somebody else could have ever figured it out...
Give me a frickin break. The general populace has known this stuff about islam and muslims for a long time.
Wrap their dead bodies in pig intestines and they don't get to go to heaven. Got this from the Russians just a few months back...
Bottom line is, it does not take much intelligence to figure out what humiliates a culture. Especially when you are living among them.
Memos from neo-cons in the White House that order torture appear, and then the torture is done exactly in the manner describe by neo-cons favorite book on Arabic populations and you claim it's all a weird coincidence?
RIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Suuuuuuure it is....
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
OK... So show me a piece of this memo that says:
"Make them strip naked and have them pile up in a pyramid shape..."
Show me a piece of this memo that says:
"Have a prisoner strip naked, make him get on the ground on all fours, and then have a girls lead him around by a leash..."
You are the one that said "exactly"...
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
lol, leftie...are you sure you're not a citizen from another country because you make Michael Moore look like Rush Limbaugh.
I never seen any one person to have such hatred against any American official as I do you. It's more like you had a rather bad upbringing and innate problems with authority figures than you do with disagreeing with politics.
Having a difference of opinion is def. your right as an American and you def. use that right in ways that I just have to say "wow"
As a person who served in the U.S. Army as an officer I thank God everyday I wake up that Bush is in Office rather than Gore. Man, if 9/11 happened in a Gore office we would have had 13 trucks of Ben and Jerry's Ice cream sent to Ben Laden as a peace offering and CNN would still be getting their high ratings from personal interviews with the mad man
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Originally posted by Finwe Apples & oranges pal. I use roads and bridges, I have no problem with taxation that is commonly used by all. Roads & bridges are done through excise taxes, and indirect taxes, not income taxes. If we're going to pay for healthcare lets throw in gasoline too, everyone has a right to transportation. Also, electric bills, everyone has a right for electricity. Lets go ahead and use housing, food, and clothing as well. Can you think of anything else I need to pay for, for you to use?
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
No, it's not.
You don't personally USE fighter jets, bombers, aircraft carriers, nuclear subs, or recon sattelites, either. You're paying income taxes on those. There is also no difference between different taxes. Money one can't spend on beer is money one can't beer, no matter what method was used to make that sum unuseable for purchasing beer. Saying there is a difference is SPIN used by the greedy to justify their rants that someone other than themselves should pay for the benefits they recieve from the American way of life. The American way of life requires money be spent on maintainance of basic common necessities, and all the citizens who benefit and profit from those commons necessities have a duty to pay to maintain them.
If YOU don't want to contribute your fair share to ensure a healthy American economy, YOU can move to Somalia where you'll have all the liberty you like from government intervention. There's no govenment to intervene in your affairs there, and you'll be in orgasmic glee, reveling in your personal freedom as you dodge bullets from the armed gangs that roam the Mogadishu streets there equally free from govenment theft of their assets as you would be.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
The difference between you and me is that I post facts based on evidence that I post links to, and you rant personal insults based on no facts supported by no evidence. I know the Army didn't allow you to approach duties in the same manner in which you post here. Matter of fact, I suspect the closest you got to being an Army officer was way too many hours of playing America's Army and other FPS games. People who have no concept of critical inquiry don't get officer slots, or at very least, get washed out very quickly if they snuck through the filtering process.
By the way, 9/11 wouldn't have happened if Gore had been President.. Gore would have put the airports on the same alert Clinton did 3 times when the they noticed the terrorists talking traffic go up, and the software the airport agents used since the Clinton admin when under alert that screened the reservation system would have flagged the 18 cash paid one way tickets with Arabic named male passengers travelling alone. The 9/11 hijackers wouldn't have made it past the check in desk.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
Originally posted by leftie
This disasterous torture policy ordered by White House has caused us to look so bad in the eyes of the world thatb US civillians being beheaded causes no sympathy in foreign lands.
There is always sympathy in death. The world doesn't care which country that civilian belongs to, all they care about is that they died. You can never know unless you ask a foreigner.
サ ー ス ベ ン
"You are the only person talking about "panties on one's head." Therefore, that's YOUR perversion, not ours."
LOL no I just asked a question that you keep avoiding. The only perversion is your prospective. Which in turn is why you refuse to answer the question. LOL
****
"Your words, Galoot...
"Read it again. They said they found no evidence that Saddam and AQ worked together in regard to 9-11. That just means that they haven't found any not that there isn't any."
You defend the tortures at Abu Ghirab even that YOU admit they have no evidence of anyone being guilty of anything.
****
Hmmm let me see, are you trying to say that apples are really oranges in disguise? If not show me where I defended torture of any kind let alone anyone having guilt or lack thereof. LOL I'm still waiting LOL
"Even The White House hasn't tried to justify torture of possible Ansar Al Islam members"
They haven't tried to institute National Kumquat Day either. So does that make it even in your mind? LOL
So let me ask you again:
Show me where I said anything even remotely close to saying that I think, feel or otherwise condone the torture of "the entire civilian population" in any way shape or form.
Oh and one more question, what color is the sky in your world?
"While we may very well live in a Republic, I wasn't aware that it was illegal to criticize the Administration, or it's choices, at war, or otherwise. Nor do I see how doing so gives aid, or relief to the enemy."
Two words propaganda and moral.
it's perfectly constitutional to criticize any administration
it's a pain in the rear end to see it on 10 pages of text in this thread.
Its not a pain because it's here in this thread.
Its a pain because for the last 7 pages people have been arguing the same freakin argument and as in any forum, politics only pisses off people and does nothing constructive whatsoever but to harbor resentment and flames and trolling.
The Thread was constructive up to page 3 but after that its like:
Forum Guy: blah blah blah guns are bad
Forum Guy tw neo-con sucks death to all neo-cons and ban all guns
Forum Guy three: blah blah blah guns are good
Forum Guy tw >inserts three pages of liberal hyped media here< SEE SEE proof!!!
Forum Guy four: >inserts three pages of conservative hyped media here< SEE SEE you're an idiot
Forum Guy one: blah blah blah blah
Forum Guy tw neo cons sucks and so do their guns
forum guy five: >inserts chart here to prove firearms are as bad in UK as in US<
Forum Guy tw defends peace yet cusses out 90% of his forum mates
Forum guy one: blah blah blah blah blah
now imagine this stretched to 10 pages in length.
lol, this thread has run its course of life and needs to be locked. Heck any thread that remotely touches on religion and politics should be locked in a heartbeat.
Thankfully the MODs and Admin here are seriously considering this to be the case:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/49/loadthread/15641/setstart/1/loadclass/35
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Well I have nothing against any of those type of arguments as long as they stay polite and mature. Which I think I've really never flamed in any of them.
But I suppose when you have somone saying neo-con dumbasses that just spew BS, amongst other inflammatory remarks, when they should probably be talking/take out their anger at a punchingbag, or physiatrist. Well. Maybe it should be locked.
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
Your standard of evidence of guilt of Iraqi civilians regarding connections to Al Queda is this..."They said they found no evidence that Saddam and AQ worked together in regard to 9-11. That just means that they haven't found any not that there isn't any"
EVERY CITIZEN OF IRAQ THAT HAS NO CONNECTION TO AL-QUEDA ia an Iraqi " they haven't found any (evidence) not that there isn't any (evidence)." According to that standard, every citizen of Iraq is just another person they will find a connection to Al-Queda for, but just have found the evidence to the connection yet. Everybody IN THE WORLD meets that standard of evidence, for that matter. You just think everyone is a suspicious person you'll eventually find the evidence to nail.
That standard means the US can torture everyone in THE WORLD your book, because YOU SAY the US DOESN'T NEED EVIDENCE TO PROVE THINGS BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE THE US NEEDS PROBABLY EXISTS AND WILL EVENTUALLY SHOW UP.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"YOU SAY the US DOESN'T NEED EVIDENCE "
Really? Where?
[quote]Originally posted by En1Gma
[b]it's perfectly constitutional to criticize any administration
it's a pain in the rear end to see it on 10 pages of text in this thread.
Its not a pain because it's here in this thread.
Its a pain because for the last 7 pages people have been arguing the same freakin argument and as in any forum, politics only pisses off people and does nothing constructive whatsoever but to harbor resentment and flames and trolling.
The Thread was constructive up to page 3 but after that its like:
Forum Guy: blah blah blah guns are bad
Forum Guy tw neo-con sucks death to all neo-cons and ban all guns
Forum Guy three: blah blah blah guns are good
Forum Guy tw >inserts three pages of liberal hyped media here< SEE SEE proof!!!
Forum Guy four: >inserts three pages of conservative hyped media here< SEE SEE you're an idiot
Forum Guy one: blah blah blah blah
Forum Guy tw neo cons sucks and so do their guns
forum guy five: >inserts chart here to prove firearms are as bad in UK as in US<
Forum Guy tw defends peace yet cusses out 90% of his forum mates
Forum guy one: blah blah blah blah blah
now imagine this stretched to 10 pages in length.
lol, this thread has run its course of life and needs to be locked. Heck any thread that remotely touches on religion and politics should be locked in a heartbeat.
Thankfully the MODs and Admin here are seriously considering this to be the case:
[url=http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/49/loadthread/15641/setstart/1/loadclass/35][/b][/quote]
Why do you keep posting to a thread you swear up and down you want to die?
Because you only want the thread to die on YOUR terms with YOU getting the last word in. That's the real neo-conservative in you, demanding you have the right to silence others whenever you decree, and ranting allowed in non-political threads only when it's you doing the ranting about topics you approve of.
Like I said the last could of times you screamed for the thread to die, if you want the thread to die, don't keep posting on it.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didnt exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis
"If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979
"Men speak of natural rights, but I challenge any one to show where in nature any rights existed or were recognized until there was established for their declaration and protection a duly promulgated body of corresponding laws."
(DEFAULT MMORPG PLAYER SIGNATURE, RANDOM QUOTE FROM SOME INTERNET SITE FOUND ON YAHOO SEARCH TO TRY MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK CLEVER)
Over and over and over again on almost every post on this thread.
I said the 9/11 Commission found there was no evidence whatsoever to indicate a working relationship in any way shape or form at any time between Saddam (Iraq) and Al-Queda. You said...
..."They said they found no evidence that Saddam and AQ worked together in regard to 9-11. That just means that they haven't found any not that there isn't any"
With that ridiculous standard of guilt, the US can point a finger at anyone in the world with any charge, and even if the person is found completely clean, the US can say, "Just because we have no evidence to prove he's guilty doesn't mean that he's innocent. We just haven't found the evidence of his guilt yet.
That standard convicts a defendant 100% of the time with no evidence, and no means to prove one's innocence, EVER.
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy
"...you just #@*&;$% with the wrong rhino, pal!" - Smoochy