Eventually, as the "old guard" goes and the "young guns" arrive with their experiences and their creativity, I think you shall begin to see some fresh content.
Now, as for the next several years, I doubt any of us will see any "ground breaking" material. Corporations, generally are very, very conservative. Which means the dollar is mightier than the inspiration at this time. We'll see "copycats" for the most part these next several years until we are absolutely bored to tears and angery to the point of "revolution"/boycott.
I am not Nostradamus, but I predict, a sort of flattening effect in this market within the next 2 or 3 years. This means fewer investors and a depressed market value. Once this takes effect, then you shall see some corporate folks make some hard decisions about the future of MMO's.
There will always be some guy or gal out there will a fresh new inspiration. Eventually, that breakthrough shall occur, but not until there is a sort of cleansing of the current run/stint of MMO's. Many if not almost all of these MMO's will go out of business during this "depressed" time. Once this has happened, then the remaking of the 21st century style MMO will occur.
I have many ideas as to what may be the new type of game. But I actually think what we're going to see in the next 10 years could be a total immersion. This means all new computer type hardware/software.
Imagine a HD TV, (which we have already), mounted to your wall. Obiviously a CPU hooked up and you wearing a visual divice, (again we have that techonology, although underdeveloped at present), you are the character. The graphics are nearly life-like. Yep, very much like a first person shooter, but you can decide how you want to experience this gaming. I think possibly some type of stimulation device will be affected for the senses. An MMO, you can feel, hear, see, and maybe even taste. I would imagine you would have to actually manipulate your hands, arms feet, etc. A physically stimulating MMO. Remember before you say. "it can't be done", that many of the tech devices we have today were consider Sci-Fi back 20 years ago. Yep, at first this is going to be very, very costly. Just as the HD TV was, but costs will go down in order for these games to flourish. And what of the technical devices? Yes, the same...they will eventually be priced for the general public.
Instead of panning this as some type of crazy "pie-in-the-sky" dream, why not add your own ideas and hopes for a total physical immersion MMO game?
This is just my ideas here folks...todays MMO's have been developed just about as far as today's technology will allow. As for the gaming style...well, not alot of new and fresh approaches are making out of the planning stages now, becuase to "go along, to get along" is apparently the way most of our gaming corporations want to go.
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
There are changes being made...though very slowly. Things like Wow's auction house, and in game mail system are pretty much staples of newer games. As games come out with things like DDo's active combat(i.e. being able to roll to avoid attacks, etc.) they slowly get implemented into the games. I believe some of the games coming out will have more things like active blocking and such(click yer button at the right time to block)
These things change slowly, and many come out in games that flop, only to be used in other games with more refinement and more success. Changes are slow, due to corporate fear of change, but they DO happen.
Ok, I never played UO, but I have played EQ1, so In my book, it all started there. EQ1 became the norm, and you got copy cats stealing good ideas from eachother. After so many years, it's all a big copy cat fest. We could end up calling it MMOCCG... It's always the same arche types (the tank, the dps, the healer, the CC (and some times a debuffer class)), you have starter quests when you join the game that asks you to kill rats. Bring furs and teeth and paws. Then go speak with your next quest npc. Some games you go get a group and grind mob xp without quests connected to the mobs (most games actually). Most games are based around the fantasy genre (eq1, eq2, DAoC, LOTRO, VG), and others are more on the sci/fi side of things (ao, eve, swg). But its always the same concepts, and the developers dont even try to hide it. let me say this out loud: If I want to play a game that is based on eq1 concepts, I will frikken go play eq1... Joining a mmorpg today that is less than 6 months old usually means you'll play eq1 as it was before it actually got upgraded... And WHY would I want to pay for that?
Yours truly
The original designs and ideas are what people miss. There is no rule that each new game that comes out has to be new and revolutionary. Sometimes the same ol' thing done very well is just what folks are after.
You don't go into a restaurant and say, "Naw, I don't want steak. Tried steak a few years ago, so I'll never eat it again. I need a new dining experience. How about being different and taking some of that cardboard box back there in the kitchen, soaking it in water, mixing it with flour, and making a new kind of bread. Yum. Sounds different and cool."
What folks want is a well designed game without the training wheels, far as I can tell. What we get is either crappy games with no training wheels (Vanguard) or well designed games with training wheels (WOW, LOTRO).
Give us a well designed game, new world, and toss back in the danger and excitement. Then set us free to explore.
Instead of bitching about it, come up with a new one. With everyone here that has played the games they have played. You all should have some good ideas for a new game. So instead of bitching about what is here, come up with a new concept. And once you are done sling it out to some game company.
Games are what they are. They are grabbing from what is popular atm. So why wouldn't every one copy the wow style of games. Its making butt loads of cash.
"When will we ever see a truly original MMORPG again?"
I tend to fall into the group of gamers who enjoyed World of Warcraft. I enjoyed it because I have been playing MMORPGs since Ultima Online and I have always wanted to play an MMO that contained features which distracted from the tedium of leveling while maintaining an understandable Risk vs. Reward system.
When WoW came out it felt like someone had listened to the EverQuest crowd and completely fixed many of the problems that persisted in EQs world. At the time, EverQuest did not have a quest system besides speaking with NPCs and getting clues. These quests were very few and far between, and some were even incomplete. At the time, EverQuest's level grind consisted of finding areas where people of your level killed mobs in groups and joining a group. There was no real reason behind killing the mobs, and no reward for killing masses of them. Players would stay in one spot for hours and constantly kill mobs for very little exp gain. When WoW came out players could complete quests from 1 - 60 by themselves without staying in a single spot killing the same group of mobs over and over.
The next innovation is going to be a vast improvement to a standard feature in MMORPGs. Whether it be dynamic questing, pvp leveling, player-made worlds, or sandbox gaming. I think that nitpicking WoW as a copy cat is like calling wine a copy cat of grape juice. WoW simply took a good thing and made it great.
Eventually, gamers will become tired of similar experiences across the board. A development team will figure out how to further the experience and players will flock to a new giant.
Originality comes when someone takes a great idea and adds their own unique spin on it.
"When will we ever see a truly original MMORPG again?" I tend to fall into the group of gamers who enjoyed World of Warcraft. I enjoyed it because I have been playing MMORPGs since Ultima Online and I have always wanted to play an MMO that contained features which distracted from the tedium of leveling while maintaining an understandable Risk vs. Reward system. When WoW came out it felt like someone had listened to the EverQuest crowd and completely fixed many of the problems that persisted in EQs world. At the time, EverQuest did not have a quest system besides speaking with NPCs and getting clues. These quests were very few and far between, and some were even incomplete. At the time, EverQuest's level grind consisted of finding areas where people of your level killed mobs in groups and joining a group. There was no real reason behind killing the mobs, and no reward for killing masses of them. Players would stay in one spot for hours and constantly kill mobs for very little exp gain. When WoW came out players could complete quests from 1 - 60 by themselves without staying in a single spot killing the same group of mobs over and over. The next innovation is going to be a vast improvement to a standard feature in MMORPGs. Whether it be dynamic questing, pvp leveling, player-made worlds, or sandbox gaming. I think that nitpicking WoW as a copy cat is like calling wine a copy cat of grape juice. WoW simply took a good thing and made it great. Eventually, gamers will become tired of similar experiences across the board. A development team will figure out how to further the experience and players will flock to a new giant. Originality comes when someone takes a great idea and adds their own unique spin on it.
I must say this is exactly how I felt after playing EQ for about 5 years and I welcomed the change of pace that WoW brought to MMOs. I was really sick of the grind and wanted something more solo friendly that was quest driven. I think thats why I enjoyed my time in WoW much. After all the difficulties of EQ and other original MMOs it was a breath of fresh air to have and easy story driven MMO that was more fun then tedium.
Massively multiplayer online collective card game ;p
is already taken lol
I agree that everything is a copy of the next thing, but tbh how can you be original when most things are covered, all they can do is take old concepts and give them new life, and improve on them.
Like wow attempted, and in some areas succesfully with wow copy everquest /AC/UO etc
Actually I take my last suggestion back - aliens are over done already
EQ1 didn't have PvP until at least a year after release... EQ1 was developed as a purely PvE game. People wonder why I am so hostile... Do not make baseless statements before you know your facts.
Well, since we are talking facts, the original EQ had PvP from the start, technically. All you had to do was turn in your book to the Priest of Discord which would "flip the switch" and make your name red. (I can't remember if they had the book at the time or you just talked to him) Not many did it, but some did. I even had a character that did. It was not very effective to play that way and eventually they made PvP servers.
Do mmorpg palyers really want something different and innovative?
The vast majority of the market does not. They're content with the familiar fantasy MMOG, with a dash of sci-fi and superheroes for diversity.
If you'd be developing something radically different, you'd have to to keep in mind that you'll probably end up with 50k subscribers at most, and scale your development costs accordingly. I very much believe it's possible to get a good game made from such a budget.
But you'll also need to keep in mind that somebody not liking your game might trash talk it on any game site they find, as they can't possibly endure that others have other tastes and opinions when it comes to MMOGs. Luckily such people seem to be going for the big games these days, not the small ones.
I've always seen Atriarch as being a pretty original game. It's a small team, small budget project which has been going on for something like 7 or 8 years now so I don't know for sure when we'll see it.
Instead of bitching about it, come up with a new one. With everyone here that has played the games they have played. You all should have some good ideas for a new game. So instead of bitching about what is here, come up with a new concept. And once you are done sling it out to some game company.
Games are what they are. They are grabbing from what is popular atm. So why wouldn't every one copy the wow style of games. Its making butt loads of cash.
Agreed, its better a good clone than a crap original game.
Ok, I never played UO, but I have played EQ1, so In my book, it all started there. EQ1 became the norm, and you got copy cats stealing good ideas from eachother. After so many years, it's all a big copy cat fest. We could end up calling it MMOCCG... It's always the same arche types (the tank, the dps, the healer, the CC (and some times a debuffer class)), you have starter quests when you join the game that asks you to kill rats. Bring furs and teeth and paws. Then go speak with your next quest npc. Some games you go get a group and grind mob xp without quests connected to the mobs (most games actually). Most games are based around the fantasy genre (eq1, eq2, DAoC, LOTRO, VG), and others are more on the sci/fi side of things (ao, eve, swg). But its always the same concepts, and the developers dont even try to hide it. let me say this out loud: If I want to play a game that is based on eq1 concepts, I will frikken go play eq1... Joining a mmorpg today that is less than 6 months old usually means you'll play eq1 as it was before it actually got upgraded... And WHY would I want to pay for that?
Yours truly
You really need to get some kind of sense of perspective here, mate.
Haven't you ever noticed that everything in the whole fucking world is a copy of a previous form? Every single type of artistic expression is built on preexisting inspiration. Architecture, literature, music, cinema, painting, sculpture, technological inventions, fashion, and even human language, mannerisms, and customs are ALL preoccupied with what has come before it; why should games be any different? The entire concept of the genre (French for "kind" or "sort") is based on new creations imitating similar, previous expressions of art. How many rock bands copied the Beatles? How many writers consciously or unconsciously copy the authors they read in their youth? How many centuries of builders copied the cultural elements of architecture established by their predecessors? Hell, even the most original minds of out history draw inspiration from the world around them. Da Vinci based his flying machine on his observations of birds; his tank on turtles!
Evolution is not based on luminous orignality. It is not revolutionary. It is a slow progression of slight, miniscule innovations upon a previous form; each generation building upon what which came before it, perfecting, advancing, and occasionally failing until eventually new forms develop. What you are witnessing here is nothing new, nor is anything specific to the MMO genre; it is in fact the exact same inescapable stigma attached to every single type of artistic expression devised by man.
Yes, Everquest "started it all" but Everquest was itself drawing heavily from MUDs which in turn were drawing on table top RPGs. Every generation of games since has copied the same form and advanced it. When one particular specimen hits upon something singularly sublime in it's presentation of previous forms (World of Warcraft, the greatest and most perfect copycat of them all) it is absolutely no surprise that the next generation will draw upon it significantly. Moreover, the fantasy and sci-fi genres are so ingrained into the barest mechanical foundation of these games that it is no wonder the majority of these games are based in them. Besides, the two are in essence identical. Observe how Anarchy Online is cannot escape the use of melee weapons like swords, axes, and hammers and magic in the form of nanites even in the far flung future!
You should not be looking for something totally revolutionary - more often then not the games that claim to be just that end up being everything but revolutionary or even original. At best they are a regression to previous forms, reimagined with the benefit of hindsight. What you should be looking for is the level at which innovation is realized, how well the setting is integrated into the game mechanics, and how polished the quality of the product is.
However, if you are looking for a genuinely original MMO with no obvious predecessor, I suggest you look into Funcom's upcoming and highly elusive new project, The Secret World. Little is known about it, but it promises to truly be unlike anything we've seen before. Urban yet mythic; realistic yet fantastic; horrifying yet deeply compelling. It's a game set in modern times based on humanities myths, religions, esoteric histories, and conspiracy theories brought to life in a manner that recalls the writings of H.P. Lovecraft and the motherfucking apocalypse! It's going to be really cool.
Wow... I think I killed it. O_o Shows me right up for actually bothering to write something significant...
Well, some of use actually do need to sleep once in a while.
Anyway, yes, what you say in your previous post is true but that does not mean an overall design cannot be original in thought. If not then we would not be able to patent anything either since everything is just a copy of everything else. Little pieces here and there can add up and make it original. The framework may be the same, and maybe a lot of the concepts, but use those in a way that others do not and you have originality.
Same can be said for MMOs. EQ may have been the first true 3D MMO, and may have copied the ground rules from MUDs or D&D, not sure which, but it had a lot of originality. The game "The Realm" was actually before EQ and had some neat ideas as well. It was a mix between 2D/3D. So, EQ may have copied some ideas from that as well.
Point is, just because most things are copied from previous things does not mean you cannot make something original in overall design. If it feels and plays new to the user then it can be considered original.
Comments
Do mmorpg palyers really want something different and innovative?
To me it seems that players only want to play what they are familiar with, but with improved features.
Thats why games like SEED http://news.softpedia.com/news/Non-Combat-MMORPG-Seed-Forced-to-Shutdown-36905.shtml
never make it..... " WTF a non-combat mmorpg, it's impossibly"
Take heart...
Eventually, as the "old guard" goes and the "young guns" arrive with their experiences and their creativity, I think you shall begin to see some fresh content.
Now, as for the next several years, I doubt any of us will see any "ground breaking" material. Corporations, generally are very, very conservative. Which means the dollar is mightier than the inspiration at this time. We'll see "copycats" for the most part these next several years until we are absolutely bored to tears and angery to the point of "revolution"/boycott.
I am not Nostradamus, but I predict, a sort of flattening effect in this market within the next 2 or 3 years. This means fewer investors and a depressed market value. Once this takes effect, then you shall see some corporate folks make some hard decisions about the future of MMO's.
There will always be some guy or gal out there will a fresh new inspiration. Eventually, that breakthrough shall occur, but not until there is a sort of cleansing of the current run/stint of MMO's. Many if not almost all of these MMO's will go out of business during this "depressed" time. Once this has happened, then the remaking of the 21st century style MMO will occur.
I have many ideas as to what may be the new type of game. But I actually think what we're going to see in the next 10 years could be a total immersion. This means all new computer type hardware/software.
Imagine a HD TV, (which we have already), mounted to your wall. Obiviously a CPU hooked up and you wearing a visual divice, (again we have that techonology, although underdeveloped at present), you are the character. The graphics are nearly life-like. Yep, very much like a first person shooter, but you can decide how you want to experience this gaming. I think possibly some type of stimulation device will be affected for the senses. An MMO, you can feel, hear, see, and maybe even taste. I would imagine you would have to actually manipulate your hands, arms feet, etc. A physically stimulating MMO. Remember before you say. "it can't be done", that many of the tech devices we have today were consider Sci-Fi back 20 years ago. Yep, at first this is going to be very, very costly. Just as the HD TV was, but costs will go down in order for these games to flourish. And what of the technical devices? Yes, the same...they will eventually be priced for the general public.
Instead of panning this as some type of crazy "pie-in-the-sky" dream, why not add your own ideas and hopes for a total physical immersion MMO game?
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Here it is.
There are changes being made...though very slowly. Things like Wow's auction house, and in game mail system are pretty much staples of newer games. As games come out with things like DDo's active combat(i.e. being able to roll to avoid attacks, etc.) they slowly get implemented into the games. I believe some of the games coming out will have more things like active blocking and such(click yer button at the right time to block)
These things change slowly, and many come out in games that flop, only to be used in other games with more refinement and more success. Changes are slow, due to corporate fear of change, but they DO happen.
D.
You don't go into a restaurant and say, "Naw, I don't want steak. Tried steak a few years ago, so I'll never eat it again. I need a new dining experience. How about being different and taking some of that cardboard box back there in the kitchen, soaking it in water, mixing it with flour, and making a new kind of bread. Yum. Sounds different and cool."
What folks want is a well designed game without the training wheels, far as I can tell. What we get is either crappy games with no training wheels (Vanguard) or well designed games with training wheels (WOW, LOTRO).
Give us a well designed game, new world, and toss back in the danger and excitement. Then set us free to explore.
Instead of bitching about it, come up with a new one. With everyone here that has played the games they have played. You all should have some good ideas for a new game. So instead of bitching about what is here, come up with a new concept. And once you are done sling it out to some game company.
Games are what they are. They are grabbing from what is popular atm. So why wouldn't every one copy the wow style of games. Its making butt loads of cash.
"When will we ever see a truly original MMORPG again?"
I tend to fall into the group of gamers who enjoyed World of Warcraft. I enjoyed it because I have been playing MMORPGs since Ultima Online and I have always wanted to play an MMO that contained features which distracted from the tedium of leveling while maintaining an understandable Risk vs. Reward system.
When WoW came out it felt like someone had listened to the EverQuest crowd and completely fixed many of the problems that persisted in EQs world. At the time, EverQuest did not have a quest system besides speaking with NPCs and getting clues. These quests were very few and far between, and some were even incomplete. At the time, EverQuest's level grind consisted of finding areas where people of your level killed mobs in groups and joining a group. There was no real reason behind killing the mobs, and no reward for killing masses of them. Players would stay in one spot for hours and constantly kill mobs for very little exp gain. When WoW came out players could complete quests from 1 - 60 by themselves without staying in a single spot killing the same group of mobs over and over.
The next innovation is going to be a vast improvement to a standard feature in MMORPGs. Whether it be dynamic questing, pvp leveling, player-made worlds, or sandbox gaming. I think that nitpicking WoW as a copy cat is like calling wine a copy cat of grape juice. WoW simply took a good thing and made it great.
Eventually, gamers will become tired of similar experiences across the board. A development team will figure out how to further the experience and players will flock to a new giant.
Originality comes when someone takes a great idea and adds their own unique spin on it.
Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde
I must say this is exactly how I felt after playing EQ for about 5 years and I welcomed the change of pace that WoW brought to MMOs. I was really sick of the grind and wanted something more solo friendly that was quest driven. I think thats why I enjoyed my time in WoW much. After all the difficulties of EQ and other original MMOs it was a breath of fresh air to have and easy story driven MMO that was more fun then tedium.
is already taken lol
I agree that everything is a copy of the next thing, but tbh how can you be original when most things are covered, all they can do is take old concepts and give them new life, and improve on them.
Like wow attempted, and in some areas succesfully with wow copy everquest /AC/UO etc
Pirates of The Burning Sea will be the next BIG original MMO, just wait it is going to be awesome.
EQ1 didn't have PvP until at least a year after release... EQ1 was developed as a purely PvE game. People wonder why I am so hostile... Do not make baseless statements before you know your facts.
Well, since we are talking facts, the original EQ had PvP from the start, technically. All you had to do was turn in your book to the Priest of Discord which would "flip the switch" and make your name red. (I can't remember if they had the book at the time or you just talked to him) Not many did it, but some did. I even had a character that did. It was not very effective to play that way and eventually they made PvP servers.
AKA - Bruxail
If you'd be developing something radically different, you'd have to to keep in mind that you'll probably end up with 50k subscribers at most, and scale your development costs accordingly. I very much believe it's possible to get a good game made from such a budget.
But you'll also need to keep in mind that somebody not liking your game might trash talk it on any game site they find, as they can't possibly endure that others have other tastes and opinions when it comes to MMOGs. Luckily such people seem to be going for the big games these days, not the small ones.
I've always seen Atriarch as being a pretty original game. It's a small team, small budget project which has been going on for something like 7 or 8 years now so I don't know for sure when we'll see it.
Agreed, its better a good clone than a crap original game.
You really need to get some kind of sense of perspective here, mate.
Haven't you ever noticed that everything in the whole fucking world is a copy of a previous form? Every single type of artistic expression is built on preexisting inspiration. Architecture, literature, music, cinema, painting, sculpture, technological inventions, fashion, and even human language, mannerisms, and customs are ALL preoccupied with what has come before it; why should games be any different? The entire concept of the genre (French for "kind" or "sort") is based on new creations imitating similar, previous expressions of art. How many rock bands copied the Beatles? How many writers consciously or unconsciously copy the authors they read in their youth? How many centuries of builders copied the cultural elements of architecture established by their predecessors? Hell, even the most original minds of out history draw inspiration from the world around them. Da Vinci based his flying machine on his observations of birds; his tank on turtles!
Evolution is not based on luminous orignality. It is not revolutionary. It is a slow progression of slight, miniscule innovations upon a previous form; each generation building upon what which came before it, perfecting, advancing, and occasionally failing until eventually new forms develop. What you are witnessing here is nothing new, nor is anything specific to the MMO genre; it is in fact the exact same inescapable stigma attached to every single type of artistic expression devised by man.
Yes, Everquest "started it all" but Everquest was itself drawing heavily from MUDs which in turn were drawing on table top RPGs. Every generation of games since has copied the same form and advanced it. When one particular specimen hits upon something singularly sublime in it's presentation of previous forms (World of Warcraft, the greatest and most perfect copycat of them all) it is absolutely no surprise that the next generation will draw upon it significantly. Moreover, the fantasy and sci-fi genres are so ingrained into the barest mechanical foundation of these games that it is no wonder the majority of these games are based in them. Besides, the two are in essence identical. Observe how Anarchy Online is cannot escape the use of melee weapons like swords, axes, and hammers and magic in the form of nanites even in the far flung future!
You should not be looking for something totally revolutionary - more often then not the games that claim to be just that end up being everything but revolutionary or even original. At best they are a regression to previous forms, reimagined with the benefit of hindsight. What you should be looking for is the level at which innovation is realized, how well the setting is integrated into the game mechanics, and how polished the quality of the product is.
How do you kill that which has no life?
Wow... I think I killed it. O_o
Shows me right up for actually bothering to write something significant...
How do you kill that which has no life?
Well, some of use actually do need to sleep once in a while.
Anyway, yes, what you say in your previous post is true but that does not mean an overall design cannot be original in thought. If not then we would not be able to patent anything either since everything is just a copy of everything else. Little pieces here and there can add up and make it original. The framework may be the same, and maybe a lot of the concepts, but use those in a way that others do not and you have originality.
Same can be said for MMOs. EQ may have been the first true 3D MMO, and may have copied the ground rules from MUDs or D&D, not sure which, but it had a lot of originality. The game "The Realm" was actually before EQ and had some neat ideas as well. It was a mix between 2D/3D. So, EQ may have copied some ideas from that as well.
Point is, just because most things are copied from previous things does not mean you cannot make something original in overall design. If it feels and plays new to the user then it can be considered original.
AKA - Bruxail