I think a lot of the PvE games nowadays are the reason why people think PvP centric games are failures waiting to happen. Why I think this is because the majority of the market is indeed mostly PvE centric games with little or no PvP in them at all. And with WoW bringing in a huge new MMO player base they're stuck in the mindset as well in being that if it doesn't cater to PvE lovers it won't do well.
Yes I played DAoC back in 01/02. Apparently you don't know what PvP centric means. DAOC had a great deal more pve than WAR probably will ever have...and that is a game that's 7 years old. Why compare it to a 7 year old game? DAoC at it's peak also has probably 1/30th or less of the total subscribers of WoW. What is your point?
man u should do some research first before u come here brag about ur theory. WoW only has 1 mil US sub rest are in Asia so do u think ppl in asia back then care about what Daoc was about? Look at AoC it doesnt matter if its pve or pvp asian ppl will never play it b/c they never heard of it. To get massive market u need a title thats well know thru out the world and Warhammer has it.
Personally the last game I even remotely enjoyed pvp in was DAoC. I am more into questing and exploration. If I want to worry about people trying to kill me I will go back to work. Games are a stress relief don't need to deal with all the griefers that tend to flood pvp games.
Yes I played DAoC back in 01/02. Apparently you don't know what PvP centric means. DAOC had a great deal more pve than WAR probably will ever have...and that is a game that's 7 years old. Why compare it to a 7 year old game? DAoC at it's peak also has probably 1/30th or less of the total subscribers of WoW. What is your point?
No other game has WoW numbers so therefore going by your statement every other game is a failure.
I won't play a game without PvP. There's only so many times you can bash on A.I till it becomes boring. There's a difference between "well thought out PvP" and "gank fest" games.
Lol odd, i get bored after about 10 min of PVP, there is Never any imagination to it, just find the most exploitable way to kill then whine when it gets balanced and taunt like a 6 year old. PVP centric players have been the most immature players i have ever seen. But on the topic i hope they make a great PVP game, then the real players can finally be free of them
My only qualm with pvp based mmo's is that it requires other players. I know this is obvious. However, finding players in some games can be frustrating. ie vanguard and ddo
It will be interesting to see if they have enough content for a whole PVP centric MMO.
I agree with one poster that with a PVP MMORPG RvR is the way to go and you surely need to have lots of impacts on the world.
It has to be casual friendly enough for the majority of gamer, but hen also content enough for the hardcore gamers, so they don't play through all content in a few weeks and then maybe notice their PVP is not as influental as they thought.
And the worst thing that could happen is that EA notices it is not too meanstream friendly and change the gameplay to attract new /more customers and sacrificing the original gameplay.
Lol odd, i get bored after about 10 min of PVP, there is Never any imagination to it, just find the most exploitable way to kill then whine when it gets balanced and taunt like a 6 year old. PVP centric players have been the most immature players i have ever seen. But on the topic i hope they make a great PVP game, then the real players can finally be free of them
ye coz doing the same instance boss kill over n over week after week... now that's rewarding!!
2moons has 2million registered people...of course its not out yet but whatever
...and how many of these 2 million are actual North American and European players?
not many probably because it's not out yet in those regions?
Or because Asian MMO's are basically all the same, have the same artist drawing the same dull boring characters, point and click pieces of junk. And don't forget the wonderful item mall where you, yes you, can spend real money to buy pixels.
Originally posted by vingvega Or because Asian MMO's are basically all the same, have the same artist drawing the same dull boring characters, point and click pieces of junk. And don't forget the wonderful item mall where you, yes you, can spend real money to buy pixels.
Listen I do agree with most of what you say but that one line I had to disagree with. Should I bring up that UO about 12+years ago started as PVP only. They where doing ok but with the lack of competition and the want for a more friendly game they developed Tram for care bears. Not because people where crying for it because people loved the game as it was, but because they saw a market for it and knew they would make a killing. Some would say they ruined the game with the introduction of Trammel. Myself I lived and played and died and PK'd in Fel. And that did not mean I didn't go to Tram. It just means I liked that environment better. Tram was still the best place to set up market and sell stuff.(pretty much all it was good for IMO)
To the Op to say it will never work IS absolutely Wacko!! All these MMO's essentially evolved from purely PVP games(whether it be tabletop,pnp,or the very first mmo's) I think thats why so many people search for and troll forums is due to the fact that what used to inspire imagination and the creativity of the player to make the world a persistent one is no longer there. IMO the lack of the ability to chose what skills you use is a big downer. Classes killed MMo's IMO. But thats in another post.
I think that the main need in any MMO is something to fight over and thats where I'm thinking Mythic got it right cause they seem to have that implemented pretty well. But again we have seen hypeity hype and got jammed. I personally will be trying "WAR". I have played WOW and do think its a good game in general for the raider crowd but not for me. And I did max a toon before BC was out. The reason I started was cause I thought We would be able to rove around in huge gangs ganking City's and such.Even remember hearing a roomer about burning city's to the ground. When I got in the game and found out that this wasn't possible that right there killed about 60% of my enthusiasm for the game.
Ok nuff Ranting.Flame on!!
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
I mean why would you want to play a game where the majority of it you kill AI controlled things i mean whats the point in that its basically singleplayer with a few people who can help you kill AI PLAYERS!
Shown by alot of surveys anyway most/same amount of the fans enjoy games with good PvP, it gives you something else to do and with WAR's background to the game etc its gonna be beautiful rather than rep grind on mobs, why not get your rep up owning the enemy.
your blatantly just someone who finds PvP too hard so your gonna go kill starting area mobs.
Propably wont be playing WAR, after all I've already played WoW 1
you need to do some reading then coz one is a pve game the other is a pvp game only thing they got in common is 'the look' (for some ppl, I say warhammer looks waaay better but maybe thats coz I've been playing warhammer games for years n years). to be blunt, if you're the kinda guy who thinks WAR is WoW2... then we are probably better off without you anyways
Never have... never will. Those that have tried....have they been successful? Maybe to a minimal extent, but relative to very successful games? No. Name some good mmorpgs games based mostly on PvP? Anyone? The majority of mmorpg players DO NOT PVP, so a business approach to cater about 80% to PvP'ers will not doubt doom this game. This leaves you with a smaller community of players who will simply get frustrated by PvP'ing the majority of the time. Minimal PvE content will eventually force a player to PvP to successfully progress in the game... instead of allowing the player to choose to pvp on his/her own. What does that leave you with? A game with 1/10th or less the population compared to another mmorpg that actually has a business approach that makes sense. What a horrible flaw by Mythic. MMORPGs were never made to be solely PVP based because it's nearly impossible to have good PVP balance. Usually... it's horrible and people would die for semi-good. This is why very few people pvp 24/7 in these types of games and most never will. But what is that... your game lacks alternative gameplay for those who don't feel like PvP'ing every second? I'm not saying this game doesn't have a chance of being a decent PvP game....but the odds are against it due to design flaws and it won't be nearly successful compared to most mmorpgs of the next generation because it fails to attract the type of people who play these games.
Not sure what your point is. That you don't like PvP? That's cool, but why post on a thread about a PvP game. I'm sure there's an "I hate PvP" thread elsewhere on this site if you do a little legwork. Um, did you ever hear of DAoC? UO? People want a fun game to play. Thus far, I have played mostly PvE based games. WAR is the first game that's gotten me interested enough to jump into the more PvP-heavy end of things. Why? Because it looks FUN. I don't care if its PvE, PvP, or RTS. If a game is fun, polished, and engaging, why limit yourself to labels? Stop being silly.
War promisses hardly anythign that can't be delievered though. The only questionable things i making dogs of war not be a dumb ai mobs that don't help balancing scenarios at all, and possibly city sacking (mostly because not much info is known yet) Everything else they say will be in the game is, for the most part ither already in or the code/functionality/playability for it is in.
Ither way, pve mmos will, for the most part, always be more popular than pvp mmos, Mythic knows it, they knew it with daoc and they know it with war. There are however a few things to consider, to understand why mythic is making war an rvr focused game and not pve. And yes, warhammer backstory is more set up for pvp than pve, but climax was making a pve based who, so that's not really the main reason.
1) Mythic is somewhat well known for their rvr in daoc and decent balance. Some liked daoc and some didn't, some think mythic did an alright job with class balance, 40+ classes after all, and some think mythic can't balance at all. Still,Mythic= rvr/pvp in people's mind, not pve. So, if they make an mmo makes sense to make it rvr focused as well. They have experience with it unlike pve (or they have more experience with rvr than pve) and people feel mythic is decent pvp developer, where as their pve reputation isn't exactly outstanding compared to other companies.
2) There is currently a lack of quality pvp games. Wow is a pve based item grind. Daoc is old, eve is too niche with too stiff penalties. Shadowbane is almost dead... what else is there? A few mmos that tacked pvp onto their pve games to appease players, that's not quality pvp.
So, release a pvp based mmo: get most of the pvp'ers + some people who just want a new game.
Release a pve mmo: Compete with the other pve based mmos for subscribers
Even though there might be more pve players than pvp players, Getting most of the pvp'ers and some pve'ers and many in between is better than competing for a part of pve players.
3) No matter what you do, pve games are basically all the same. There is no different between eq1 and wow. The basic idea is you play to get better gear so you can get even better gear to get ever better gear. Combine this with timesinks, which a pve game must have because devs can't pump out content fast enaugh. And it really is just a matter fo time before your subscriber base gets bored with the timesinks.
Sure, some people may enjoy raiding, but tell me, do you, as hardcore pve'ers, really enjoy raiding the same instances for 6 months collecting your dkp to get some uber gear? I am sure you enjoyed it the first fe times, but 3-6months of constant farming? It's not challenging or fun anymore, it's just a time sink. You don't see any lvl 70 players in wow doing onyxia or mc or bwl, because those things are not fun, they never were.
Pvp (rvr) on the other hand plays itself, devs don't need to do anything, fix bugs and fix classes but they don't need to constantly pump out new content. Which means that the content that they do put out, can be fun, and not a collection of time sinks to keep players from being done with it long enaugh for devs to release another collection of timesinks.
Oh, well, war will be a fun rvr game with very fun, but not long lasting (no time sinks) pve. Probably not what hardcore raiders want to hear, but most pvp'ers and those who enjoy both will definitely love it
2moons has 2million registered people...of course its not out yet but whatever
...and how many of these 2 million are actual North American and European players?
not many probably because it's not out yet in those regions?
Or because Asian MMO's are basically all the same, have the same artist drawing the same dull boring characters, point and click pieces of junk. And don't forget the wonderful item mall where you, yes you, can spend real money to buy pixels.
You spend money every month to play pixels, oh ya and aren't there always hundreds of sites where you can buy pixels with real money? All games have that at least the asian MMos have the courtesy to make it in game. And usually thats they're source of revenue in the game since most of the mmos over there are F2P. I could go on about how different it is there. In short the MMo market over there is very different to the Europe or American MMO market don't dismiss it because you've had a bad time with one of them.
"DAoC at it's peak also has probably 1/30th or less of the total subscribers of WoW. What is your point?"
6 years ago the total population of people playing MMO's was very little. Maybe 1 million spread across 4 or 5 games tops. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. DAOC was the #2 subscription MMO behind everquest for a long time. And it was a PVP (RVR) centric game. If you mean FFA PVP then state Free for All.
DAOC went down the tubes when they implemented TOA which they thought would give enough PVE/ High End Raiding that would take more away from EQ and it failed. People who played daoc wanted to pvp not pve.
WHAT!? What about DAoC or Guild Wars, they were successful... Not alot of games go for PvP-centric cuz they dont have the balls to do it. But nowadays, people are sick of the 5 hour dungeon raids, and all other boring PvE methods. Me and many people that I know, in which are waiting for WAR as well, are dying for some hardcore PvP. After playing WoW, any PvPer at heart needs WAR. PvP should be the next generation of MMORPG's. Killing computer controled characters is just lame.
Comments
I think a lot of the PvE games nowadays are the reason why people think PvP centric games are failures waiting to happen. Why I think this is because the majority of the market is indeed mostly PvE centric games with little or no PvP in them at all. And with WoW bringing in a huge new MMO player base they're stuck in the mindset as well in being that if it doesn't cater to PvE lovers it won't do well.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
not many probably because it's not out yet in those regions?
man u should do some research first before u come here brag about ur theory. WoW only has 1 mil US sub rest are in Asia so do u think ppl in asia back then care about what Daoc was about? Look at AoC it doesnt matter if its pve or pvp asian ppl will never play it b/c they never heard of it. To get massive market u need a title thats well know thru out the world and Warhammer has it.
Personally the last game I even remotely enjoyed pvp in was DAoC. I am more into questing and exploration. If I want to worry about people trying to kill me I will go back to work. Games are a stress relief don't need to deal with all the griefers that tend to flood pvp games.
No other game has WoW numbers so therefore going by your statement every other game is a failure.
I won't play a game without PvP. There's only so many times you can bash on A.I till it becomes boring. There's a difference between "well thought out PvP" and "gank fest" games.
Lol odd, i get bored after about 10 min of PVP, there is Never any imagination to it, just find the most exploitable way to kill then whine when it gets balanced and taunt like a 6 year old. PVP centric players have been the most immature players i have ever seen. But on the topic i hope they make a great PVP game, then the real players can finally be free of them
EVE?
My only qualm with pvp based mmo's is that it requires other players. I know this is obvious. However, finding players in some games can be frustrating. ie vanguard and ddo
It will be interesting to see if they have enough content for a whole PVP centric MMO.
I agree with one poster that with a PVP MMORPG RvR is the way to go and you surely need to have lots of impacts on the world.
It has to be casual friendly enough for the majority of gamer, but hen also content enough for the hardcore gamers, so they don't play through all content in a few weeks and then maybe notice their PVP is not as influental as they thought.
And the worst thing that could happen is that EA notices it is not too meanstream friendly and change the gameplay to attract new /more customers and sacrificing the original gameplay.
RVR sucks. I don't want developers to decide who my enemy is.
ye coz doing the same instance boss kill over n over week after week... now that's rewarding!!
then dont play it, simple as that
I'm sure you'll get yours when ( 
) darkfall comes or something like that
not many probably because it's not out yet in those regions?
Or because Asian MMO's are basically all the same, have the same artist drawing the same dull boring characters, point and click pieces of junk. And don't forget the wonderful item mall where you, yes you, can spend real money to buy pixels.
QFT
Listen I do agree with most of what you say but that one line I had to disagree with. Should I bring up that UO about 12+years ago started as PVP only.
They where doing ok but with the lack of competition and the want for a more friendly game they developed Tram for care bears. 
Not because people where crying for it because people loved the game as it was, but because they saw a market for it and knew they would make a killing.
Some would say they ruined the game with the introduction of Trammel. Myself I lived and played and died and PK'd in Fel. And that did not mean I didn't go to Tram. It just means I liked that environment better. Tram was still the best place to set up market and sell stuff.(pretty much all it was good for IMO)
To the Op to say it will never work IS absolutely Wacko!!
All these MMO's essentially evolved from purely PVP games(whether it be tabletop,pnp,or the very first mmo's) I think thats why so many people search for and troll forums is due to the fact that what used to inspire imagination and the creativity of the player to make the world a persistent one is no longer there. IMO the lack of the ability to chose what skills you use is a big downer. Classes killed MMo's IMO. 
But thats in another post.
I think that the main need in any MMO is something to fight over and thats where I'm thinking Mythic got it right cause they seem to have that implemented pretty well. But again we have seen hypeity hype and got jammed. I personally will be trying "WAR". I have played WOW and do think its a good game in general for the raider crowd but not for me. And I did max a toon before BC was out. The reason I started was cause I thought We would be able to rove around in huge gangs ganking City's and such.Even remember hearing a roomer about burning city's to the ground. When I got in the game and found out that this wasn't possible that right there killed about 60% of my enthusiasm for the game.
Ok nuff Ranting.Flame on!!
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
then dont play it, simple as that
I'm sure you'll get yours when ( 
) darkfall comes or something like that
Propably wont be playing WAR, after all I've already played WoW 1
this topic makes me HAHAH
tbh a PvP MMO would own the others.
I mean why would you want to play a game where the majority of it you kill AI controlled things i mean whats the point in that its basically singleplayer with a few people who can help you kill AI PLAYERS!
Shown by alot of surveys anyway most/same amount of the fans enjoy games with good PvP, it gives you something else to do and with WAR's background to the game etc its gonna be beautiful rather than rep grind on mobs, why not get your rep up owning the enemy.
your blatantly just someone who finds PvP too hard so your gonna go kill starting area mobs.
you need to do some reading then coz one is a pve game the other is a pvp game
Not sure what your point is. That you don't like PvP? That's cool, but why post on a thread about a PvP game. I'm sure there's an "I hate PvP" thread elsewhere on this site if you do a little legwork. Um, did you ever hear of DAoC? UO? People want a fun game to play. Thus far, I have played mostly PvE based games. WAR is the first game that's gotten me interested enough to jump into the more PvP-heavy end of things. Why? Because it looks FUN. I don't care if its PvE, PvP, or RTS. If a game is fun, polished, and engaging, why limit yourself to labels? Stop being silly.
A game catering to the hardcore crowd will never do well.
I hope you will not be disappointed as they have to make it fun for the normal gamers to and not only the 'hardcore' crowd.
And we will see when they go into open beta if it delivers what it promises. Too many games promise lots of things and hardly any of them deliver.
War promisses hardly anythign that can't be delievered though. The only questionable things i making dogs of war not be a dumb ai mobs that don't help balancing scenarios at all, and possibly city sacking (mostly because not much info is known yet) Everything else they say will be in the game is, for the most part ither already in or the code/functionality/playability for it is in.
Ither way, pve mmos will, for the most part, always be more popular than pvp mmos, Mythic knows it, they knew it with daoc and they know it with war. There are however a few things to consider, to understand why mythic is making war an rvr focused game and not pve. And yes, warhammer backstory is more set up for pvp than pve, but climax was making a pve based who, so that's not really the main reason.
1) Mythic is somewhat well known for their rvr in daoc and decent balance. Some liked daoc and some didn't, some think mythic did an alright job with class balance, 40+ classes after all, and some think mythic can't balance at all. Still,Mythic= rvr/pvp in people's mind, not pve. So, if they make an mmo makes sense to make it rvr focused as well. They have experience with it unlike pve (or they have more experience with rvr than pve) and people feel mythic is decent pvp developer, where as their pve reputation isn't exactly outstanding compared to other companies.
2) There is currently a lack of quality pvp games. Wow is a pve based item grind. Daoc is old, eve is too niche with too stiff penalties. Shadowbane is almost dead... what else is there? A few mmos that tacked pvp onto their pve games to appease players, that's not quality pvp.
So, release a pvp based mmo: get most of the pvp'ers + some people who just want a new game.
Release a pve mmo: Compete with the other pve based mmos for subscribers
Even though there might be more pve players than pvp players, Getting most of the pvp'ers and some pve'ers and many in between is better than competing for a part of pve players.
3) No matter what you do, pve games are basically all the same. There is no different between eq1 and wow. The basic idea is you play to get better gear so you can get even better gear to get ever better gear. Combine this with timesinks, which a pve game must have because devs can't pump out content fast enaugh. And it really is just a matter fo time before your subscriber base gets bored with the timesinks.
Sure, some people may enjoy raiding, but tell me, do you, as hardcore pve'ers, really enjoy raiding the same instances for 6 months collecting your dkp to get some uber gear? I am sure you enjoyed it the first fe times, but 3-6months of constant farming? It's not challenging or fun anymore, it's just a time sink. You don't see any lvl 70 players in wow doing onyxia or mc or bwl, because those things are not fun, they never were.
Pvp (rvr) on the other hand plays itself, devs don't need to do anything, fix bugs and fix classes but they don't need to constantly pump out new content. Which means that the content that they do put out, can be fun, and not a collection of time sinks to keep players from being done with it long enaugh for devs to release another collection of timesinks.
Oh, well, war will be a fun rvr game with very fun, but not long lasting (no time sinks) pve. Probably not what hardcore raiders want to hear, but most pvp'ers and those who enjoy both will definitely love it
not many probably because it's not out yet in those regions?
Or because Asian MMO's are basically all the same, have the same artist drawing the same dull boring characters, point and click pieces of junk. And don't forget the wonderful item mall where you, yes you, can spend real money to buy pixels.
You spend money every month to play pixels, oh ya and aren't there always hundreds of sites where you can buy pixels with real money? All games have that at least the asian MMos have the courtesy to make it in game. And usually thats they're source of revenue in the game since most of the mmos over there are F2P. I could go on about how different it is there. In short the MMo market over there is very different to the Europe or American MMO market don't dismiss it because you've had a bad time with one of them.
"DAoC at it's peak also has probably 1/30th or less of the total subscribers of WoW. What is your point?"
6 years ago the total population of people playing MMO's was very little. Maybe 1 million spread across 4 or 5 games tops. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. DAOC was the #2 subscription MMO behind everquest for a long time. And it was a PVP (RVR) centric game. If you mean FFA PVP then state Free for All.
DAOC went down the tubes when they implemented TOA which they thought would give enough PVE/ High End Raiding that would take more away from EQ and it failed. People who played daoc wanted to pvp not pve.
WHAT!? What about DAoC or Guild Wars, they were successful... Not alot of games go for PvP-centric cuz they dont have the balls to do it. But nowadays, people are sick of the 5 hour dungeon raids, and all other boring PvE methods. Me and many people that I know, in which are waiting for WAR as well, are dying for some hardcore PvP. After playing WoW, any PvPer at heart needs WAR. PvP should be the next generation of MMORPG's. Killing computer controled characters is just lame.