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What do you mean by perma-death?
Calkrow
Member UncommonPosts: 92
I see quite a lot of threads about a MMORPG with permanent death which interests me from a roleplaying perspective as I think it would add realism. So I'm very much for a game that would include this. In this thread rather than discuss its feasability or how it should work I thought I'd ask for some views on what people think it means.
I'm asking this as I get the impression that when people talk about perma-death they consider that once a character dies it is the end and there is no coming back. I rather take it to mean there is no automatic re-incarnation of a character once they have died, whether you have to recover a corpse or not. This does mean that a character can still be revived by other mechanics. Most games have abilities that allow one player to 'rez' another. Another idea would be that a live character could drag the corpse of a dead character, at a slow speed because of the weight, back to an npc who could rez them.
Comments
What part of permanent death do you not understand ? It means your character dying and never coming back.
People have lives to live.. I don't think you could release this kind of game to be greeted with mass appeal. I have plenty things to be doing other than slowly draggin your stupid ass back to safety. The only thing I see this doing is making characters play the game in a reserved manner, never taking chances. The behavior I mentioned can be seen in the game LOTRO where people reroll a character just because they can't get an undying title.
You play far too much WoW most real MMO's dont operate on easy mode like WoW. Permadeath measn if you die thats it the end of that Toon you need to make a new one. Some people feel that such a system would encourage real PvP with real life consiquences.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
You play far too much WoW most real MMO's dont operate on easy mode like WoW. Permadeath measn if you die thats it the end of that Toon you need to make a new one. Some people feel that such a system would encourage real PvP with real life consiquences.
I see nothing in his post pertaining to WoW. Many games actually do operate under a simple respawn with small penalty to pay in some form. This thread really didn't need to devolve into yet another WoW bashing one.
Thats fun and all, until the first lag spike or disconnection.
The Kouz
TR - Pegasus
If you are so intrigued by perma death you're already playing that mmo. You could get in a car crash on the way home. Your house might catch on fire when you sleep tonight. Someone might shoot you straight in the face at the gas station.
Does any of this sound fun?
If you answered No then maybe you could realize people don't want to play for entertainment with the same ill circumstances.
I'm sure there are some people in here that will want to play a game like that.. I'm not saying you don't exist, but please remember that there are also people out there who like to watch films of people defecating on each other.
You seem to forget that a permadeath game is ust that A GAME.
Let those that want to play such a game alone.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
I can never understand these people who want permadeath in a game. You play a MMO, your character dies, you want permadeath? Delete your character. TADA! You now have permadeath in your MMO.
Lol you really need to learn the difference between real life and a game lifeYou seem to forget that a permadeath game is ust that A GAME.
Let those that want to play such a game alone.
I didn't say they couldn't play.. I just said that in general it wouldn't be a large hit.. He wanted opinions and I stated mine with a bit o' comedy gold I might addI may be way out there in right field when I say this but I felt that most people played games to relax and for enjoyment, not for simulation. I don't agree with no death penalty at all but perma death, especially in an mmo, is a very hard thing to do and still appeal to the masses.
AD&D's <ahem> permadeath , only meant (depending on the age, imagination and resources of your DM/GM - obviously)...that your quest would/could continue on other planes and other demi-planes of existances to get back or semi-back to your former 'self'.....i dont see why they couldnt implement it in mmo's/mmorpgs today..
it would be a massive booost the already presently lame quest system.
imho.
all mmorpgs are based on AD&D anyway....for the most part.....let's use it all! I would LOVE to see a SpellJammer Mmorpg someday, kind of like EVE meets DAOC and EQ1
...there is plenty of room in the mmorpg market for a myriad of ideas yet to come forth and be used, that have never been touched upon before.
its only a matter of time.
Spelljamming would ROCK!
so much can be done....chronomancer Xpaks could be added...Vodoni empire Xpaks...and so on and so on.
for the amount of resources out there to drawn upon in regards to AD&D, and what has been used in mmorpgs to date since the mid to late 90's....we will be in the year 2030..and they will still be scratching the surface of all the options that can be 'had' by the player in respects to what AD&D can offer an online mmorpg.
Permadeath..is just another 'welcomed" ( if done correctly) step in that evolutionary process.
cant wait...it ONLY spells fun!
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I MIGHT play a game with perma-death if they gave us a set number of lives instead of just one. Mabey let us earn more or something.
They'd also have to keep it 100% lag free, or atleast have some amazing customer support.
I don't think an entire MMO with permadeath would be successful at all. In fact, I doubt if it ever made it past the boardroom meeting. But then, look at the retarded movies that get greenlit and financed. What I could see is a hardcore server that had all the hardcore fanboy options enabled, including permadeath. With a huge disclaimer/warning when you choose that server. Screw the customer service, you choose hardcore, you deal with the consequences. Accidents and crap happen in our real lives, and if lag or a network issue was a contributing factor in a character's death, too bad, that comes with the territory. Don't like it? Don't pick the hardcore server.
you could make a good perma death game but the game play would have to be really fun so if you did get killed you would not mind doing it all again.
all so have a bank for that account so it shares for all your toons you could do what sword of another world done and have a family you when you pick your last name it stays with that account so ppl know who your are.
also may be itams that you pick up so when you get killed and u have them in bank give you an exp bonuse
you could do all sorts of things
The discussion seems to be slipping towards why perma-death is a good / bad idea or how to implement it, so trying to pull in back on its intended topic let me add some more thoughts of my own.
I've played a fair few different games, started out with 2 and a bit years EQ1, but I've only come across one game (Horizons) where the lore of the game itself gave a reason for automatic re-incarnation on death. So as a roleplayer and looking for features in an MMORPG that add to the realism, if the lore of the game doesn't support automatic re-incarnation then it shouldn't be there. However that doesn't mean a character can't be rezzed by some other means. This is why I take a meaning for perma-death that seems different from most others I've seen comment.
For those that see the meaning as being one death and that is the end of your character why do you feel that removing automatic resurrection means you also have to remove player ability resurrection?
For those that like the idea of perma-death because you think it makes a game more hardcore would you also want all healing removed?
Perma death is never going to happen in a big budget mmo. Maybe in a niche game , something like A Tale in the Desert or Roma Victor, but not a big production. WoW shows us what the majority of the mmo community is comprised of. These people are not putting reality and challenging gaming on top of their list. The majority of mmo players enjoy the social experience of playing with thousands of other players in a persistant world, guilds, and a long time attachment to their evolving characters.
Almost every game has a type of lore explained re incarnation actually. Anarchy Online has cloning for example.
permadeath is defined nicely by Shawn's blog (used to post here under BalanceFX). you have to google for his blog
PErmadeath has a few forms:
1) In DDO there are guil;ds that will delete their toon upon death like some have eluded to in this post.
2) sometimes in games two pvpers might duel and agree to delete or transfer upon failure.
3) limited number of lives then u get deleted
4) aging- whereas your character will surely die in a set period of time.
the biggest games I know of that have it is Diablo series, some small MMOs, and some Asian MMOs have it. so ya im lol'ing at the nuts that say no one big will ever do it. I've seen it
not really worth arguing especially on a public general forum. much better topic to discuss on developer forums you'll get good feed there. this is more of a brainstorm. opf course the replies will come slow and will be long and well thought out
good idea Guild Wars kinda does this in the Arenas. you cant self rez and must be rezzed by a teammate. even something simple like that is really fun
I've always wanted a game with permadeath, I've always liked the idea because it puts a little more risk into dying, when I played WoW and died it was like whatever, time for another corpse run. But I'd like to feel like if I don't try to put up a fight I'm going to lose everything. I like the idea of having a limited amount of deaths before you permanently die. There was such a game coming out, but I doubt I will ever see it finished. Trials of Ascension, it was planning on doing 100 deaths before you permanently die, it also had it where you could put your life into certain objects before dying that would having special abilities after that characters death. It all sounded amazing to me...but most people don't want that amount of risk in a game, so I don't think anything interesting like a permadeath system will ever make it big.
Ya, but the hardcore mode in Diablo and Diablo 2 is optional.
Ya, but the hardcore mode in Diablo and Diablo 2 is optional.
yeah but its still permadeath option (besides was just tossing out Diablo its not an MMO)
He didnt say he was designing a game for 'mainstream' now did he? Just maybe think for a second he might be happy with jkust making a game and sharing it with close friends? I know I love starting up a server in NWN 2 and sharing the experience with my good friends. mainstream can go to hell
I don't think permadeath has to mean one death (or lagspike) and you're gone for good. Any sort of death system that involves something more than just XP debt or corpse runs will make us permadeath freeks happy
(well, some of us
). To me Permadeath is just some way of handling character death in MMO's that actually hurts the character.
Its a way of putting strategy and skill back into the gameplay instead of zerging through or sending a massive horde of players at the big baddy. Mindless zerging and button smashing can be fun too, but there is so much of that out there and not enough games that require any real thought.
And a little off topic, but there is no real need for permadeath to be built into a game, the DDO permadeath guilds (at least 4 across the 5 servers) are doing just fine making their own permadeath rules. And in my time playing in several of them I've run across a lot of people that have been playing MMO's permadeath style on their own for years. The only reason you would need a permadeath server or game is if you want bragging rights to prove how good you are. The honor system works well for many of us just looking to have fun.
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DDO Permadeath guilds
Its a way of putting strategy and skill back into the gameplay instead of zerging through or sending a massive horde of players at the big baddy. Mindless zerging and button smashing can be fun too, but there is so much of that out there and not enough games that require any real thought.
It doesn't. Ever played Lineage 2? When the risk gets too high, people zerg to ensure they don't lose anything or much.
true just like in real life usually when you face a hard challenge you reduce your risk and steamroll. some of Bills other points I'm not sure I agree with. PErmadeath, whether volunatary or not, is usually so you make an impact. like get a grave site or something. for instance in EVE when Titans die permenantly they mark space for all time. *Impact* not bragging rights. no one wants to lose their Titan and its nothing to be proud of,. infact my friends was hella pissed when they lost their Titan. this is the problem- losing something for 'good' is a hit to morale thus its in direct conflict with subscription models
now that I'd agree with. I'm more eager to try PD in f2p games because they dont focus on grind. so not to bad to get wiped. so maybe im not a real PD'er. but I'm 'open' and obviously interested in the subject
Thanks to those of you who put something interesting or informative in your posts.
The one I will try and remember most is not to put this sort of discussion in a general forum....