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The Grind, pricing, and you.
ThothAmon
Member Posts: 8
From your pricing discussions on your play.net forum boards, I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say it's going to be multi-tiered pricing.
Meaning, pricing can look sorta like this.
1 month = 15 dollars for 1 character.
Addn characters per month = 2 dollars
1 month of premium = 45 dollars (which includes 5+ extra character slots) also will give premium players much extra attention Including:
+ Chance to participate in extra quests/events.
+Chance for better items from event auctions.
+Chance for long term incentive rewards including buffs to weapons/armor.
+Faster GM response/customer service.
+ Premium Exclusive areas
and much more....
This was all deduced from the pay scale of the Simutronics' games Gemstone and DragonRealms.
------------------------------------------
Commentary: I'am fairly well off and I don't mind spending 45 dollars a month or even a day. But, how does a game or any game for that matter constitute such a extreme price? I'm not trying to attack the pricing regime since noone has yet to play this game, but 45 bucks a month? Thats quite a bit for a MMO.Make me understand how it's worth 3 times the value of all other MMOs with brilliant minds and programming in them? .... But first, let me do a bit of analysis.
First and foremost, Simu has priced itself out of the general MMO market by leaps and bounds, I'm talking the 100 million dollar production budget 4th generation MMO's like Age Of Conan and Warhammer. So my only conclusion then is that this game is mainly aimed for existing Gemstone or DragonRealms players. But...
New players may be enticed to try the game out under the 15 buck a month plan, they play it, they really like it, and they maybe upgrade. The thing is, this may or may not work. Why?
+Most people despise a tiered system of payment. It seperates players into the haves and have nots, although I'll be mainly the haves it will royally slam many of my friends who are in the have not categories and also who all happen to be in my clan. A clan thats been in existence since UO days.
+The grind, I have heard horror stories about the Gemstone DragonRealms grind. Supposedly, it takes 5+ years of continuous everyday play to reach the highest level in Gemstone, even longer in Dragonrealms. First, I thought this was largely an exaggeration, but then I saw this.... directly cut and pasted from the Simu official website.
| Exp Req. | = Experience required to gain the next level |
| Av. Hrs | = Average hours of play to gain the next level |
| Experience | Level | Exp Req. | Av. Hrs |
| 2500 | 1 | 2500 | 2.5 |
| 5000 | 2 | 2500 | 2.5 |
| 10000 | 3 | 5000 | 5 |
| 17500 | 4 | 7500 | 7.5 |
| 27500 | 5 | 10000 | 10 |
| 40000 | 6 | 12500 | 12.5 |
| 55000 | 7 | 15000 | 15 |
| 72500 | 8 | 17500 | 17.5 |
| 92500 | 9 | 20000 | 20 |
| 115000 | 10 | 22500 | 22.5 |
| 140000 | 11 | 25000 | 25 |
| 167000 | 12 | 27500 | 27.5 |
| 197500 | 13 | 30000 | 30 |
| 230000 | 14 | 32500 | 32.5 |
| 265000 | 15 | 35000 | 35 |
| 302000 | 16 | 37000 | 37 |
| 341000 | 17 | 39000 | 39 |
| 382000 | 18 | 41000 | 41 |
| 425000 | 19 | 43000 | 43 |
| 470000 | 20 | 45000 | 45 |
| 517000 | 21 | 47000 | 47 |
| 566000 | 22 | 49000 | 49 |
| 617000 | 23 | 51000 | 51 |
| 670000 | 24 | 53000 | 53 |
| 725000 | 25 | 55000 | 55 |
| 781500 | 26 | 56500 | 56.5 |
| 839500 | 27 | 58000 | 58 |
| 899000 | 28 | 59500 | 59.5 |
| 960000 | 29 | 61000 | 61 |
| 1022500 | 30 | 62500 | 62.5 |
| 1086500 | 31 | 64000 | 64 |
| 1152000 | 32 | 65500 | 65.5 |
| 1219000 | 33 | 67000 | 67 |
| 1287500 | 34 | 68500 | 68.5 |
| 1357500 | 35 | 70000 | 70 |
| 1429000 | 36 | 71500 | 71.5 |
| 1502000 | 37 | 73000 | 73 |
| 1576500 | 38 | 74500 | 74.5 |
| 1652500 | 39 | 76000 | 76 |
| 1730000 | 40 | 77500 | 77.5 |
| 1808500 | 41 | 78500 | 78.5 |
| 1888000 | 42 | 79500 | 79.5 |
| 1968500 | 43 | 80500 | 80.5 |
| 2050000 | 44 | 81500 | 81.5 |
| 2132500 | 45 | 82500 | 82.5 |
| 2216000 | 46 | 83500 | 83.5 |
| 2300500 | 47 | 84500 | 84.5 |
| 2386000 | 48 | 85500 | 85.5 |
| 2472500 | 49 | 86500 | 86.5 |
| 2560000 | 50 | 87500 | 87.5 |
| 2648000 | 51 | 88000 | 88 |
| 2736500 | 52 | 88500 | 88.5 |
| 2825500 | 53 | 89000 | 89 |
| 2915000 | 54 | 89500 | 89.5 |
| 3005000 | 55 | 90000 | 90 |
| 3095500 | 56 | 90500 | 90.5 |
| 3186500 | 57 | 91000 | 91 |
| 3278000 | 58 | 91500 | 91.5 |
| 3370000 | 59 | 92000 | 92 |
| 3462500 | 60 | 92500 | 92.5 |
| 3555500 | 61 | 93000 | 93 |
| 3649000 | 62 | 93500 | 93.5 |
| 3743000 | 63 | 94000 | 94 |
| 3837500 | 64 | 94500 | 94.5 |
| 3932500 | 65 | 95000 | 95 |
| 4028000 | 66 | 95500 | 95.5 |
| 4124000 | 67 | 96000 | 96 |
| 4220500 | 68 | 96500 | 96.5 |
| 4317500 | 69 | 97000 | 97 |
| 4415000 | 70 | 97500 | 97.5 |
| 4513000 | 71 | 98000 | 98 |
| 4611500 | 72 | 98500 | 98.5 |
| 4710500 | 73 | 99000 | 99 |
| 4810000 | 74 | 99500 | 99.5 |
| 4910000 | 75 | 100000 | 100 |
| 5010500 | 76 | 100500 | 100.5 |
| 5111500 | 77 | 101000 | 101 |
| 5213000 | 78 | 101500 | 101.5 |
| 5315000 | 79 | 102000 | 102 |
| 5417500 | 80 | 102500 | 102.5 |
| 5520500 | 81 | 103000 | 103 |
| 5624000 | 82 | 103500 | 103.5 |
| 5728000 | 83 | 104000 | 104 |
| 5832500 | 84 | 104500 | 104.5 |
| 5937500 | 85 | 105000 | 105 |
| 6043000 | 86 | 105500 | 105.5 |
| 6149000 | 87 | 106000 | 106 |
| 6255500 | 88 | 106500 | 106.5 |
| 6362500 | 89 | 107000 | 107 |
| 6470000 | 90 | 107500 | 107.5 |
| 6578000 | 91 | 108000 | 108 |
| 6686500 | 92 | 108500 | 108.5 |
| 6795500 | 93 | 109000 | 109 |
| 6905000 | 94 | 109500 | 109.5 |
| 7015000 | 95 | 110000 | 110 |
| 7125500 | 96 | 110500 | 110.5 |
| 7236500 | 97 | 111000 | 111 |
| 7348000 | 98 | 111500 | 111.5 |
| 7460000 | 99 | 112000 | 112 |
| 7572500 | 100 | 112500 | 112.5 |
Those average hours are PER LEVEL btw. So to get from levels 95-100 it will take you 667.5 hours of gameplay.
I know that sounds completely ridiculous, as I can pretty much cap 2 characters in WoW and deck them out with some nice gear in that amount of time but thats the facts for one of Simus most popular games.
If this were the case for HJ, I can guarantee the game will tank and it'll only support those Gemstone and DragonRealms players who all seem to be strangely fascinated with grinding.
BUT, say HJ doesn't become a massive grind, say it takes 700 hours to get from 1-50 or cap. Will it still be fun? Perhaps, but it better be one brand spanking new 6th generation MMO heck of a game to command 45 dollars a pop.
What my spidey sense is telling me:
Simutronics may believe that HJ is Gemstone back when text based games were a hot commodity. They may think that there are people out there that like the grind and will get addicted enough to their particular style of gameplay to shell out 45 bucks. If this is the case, the game is being marketed for a truly niche area, perhaps a subscription level of 5000-10,000 players at the most. If this is the case, why do this? Because the games graphics are a bit behind then the newer 100 million dollar games coming out? Remember Simutronics you could shoot for that 100,000 player mark and people will come as long as the gameplay is nice and you'll be able to make tons of more money, remember there are still a couple hundred thousand players on UO...
Comments
Could you please give a link where they propose this sort of pricing for Hero's Journey? I think, it would be ludicrous to do something like that. It would price them right out of the market! I can not really believe, that Simu is actually planning to use this sort of system for HJ.
I know, they do something similiar for Gemstone IV. That's one reason, I never subscribed after the trial ran out. I am really surprised there are enough subsribers, willing to pay this sort of money, but then, a lot of players have been with them for a looong time....
However, a pricing system such as this for HJ would mean, that they limit themselves more or less to their existing player base. New players will ask, why they have to pay for, i. e. addional char slots, when they get 6 or more inclusive in any other mmo. What can Simutronics offer, what can they add to the normal mmo experience to convince players to pay this amount of money?
Again, I think they are going for a small niche market which I REALLY don't get why, seeing how if they play their cards right they can haul in 100k+ pbase easy. If Simu thinks they can BOTH get a 100k pbase AND make people pay 45 bucks a month for their game they are in one shock of a surprise, the MMO market right now is saturated with games all competing to be the best.
It would be nice if one of the Simu folks would pop on and add to this in one way or another. I would be against the tiered pricing system in shape or form unless they had a premium server for the people who like to buy their perks and regular servers for those of us that like to earn our stuff.
Unless I'm mistaken, they have not officially confirmed what the pricing scheme is going to be like for HJ. I seriously doubt they will follow the gemstone/dr model exactly, because I just don't think it's viable for the graphical market and simu isn't insane (i hope). Although i wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of some sort of tiering or ticketed event type thing.
As for the grind... Yeah, it look pretty preposterous, but honestly when I was playing DR I never felt it. I think it's because the game was never about a big race to the end game or whatever, so it hardly mattered to me how fast I was leveling. I was busy doing other stuff.
Anyways, drawing such direct comparisons to their text-based games may not pan out. I have a feeling HJ may be significantly different from how their text-based games are, since it's level based and aimed at a wider market. Who knows how it'll turn out.
Too many broad assumptions and not enough substantiating links. I enjoy theorycraft as much as the next guy, but c'mon.
Confidently claiming that Simu will follow the same model as a previous game is like someone at the turn of the century saying Ford automotive became successful making the model T's, and those cars were only available in 1 color... black.
The model-T was a huge success, so obviously Ford will only offer cars in one color from now on.
This amount of exp to be earned is fine for me. i dont mind about how much hours I need to get to top level. The fun is in the way not in the finish. Dont you see all this game rusher's complaining about "How they are bored of X game"? They rush to the end game and then what? Do the same raid instances again and again? So you prefer this boring model?. This will probably be a long term game, and a really good one. Im most interested in Hj than in AoC or War or on any other Big Releases. The big releases are all the same.
At least is my opinion.
In Gemstone there is an experience bonus each week called the Gift of Lorminstra/Triple X. You gain triple experience for the first 6 hours, game time, then double experience for the next 3 hours of game time. As someone said, it isn't really the endgame for most of us there. I have a level 72 cleric that I rolled up in 1997. At that time there was no cap, then a soft cap was brought in, then the hard cap of 100 that is still in effect today. Roleplay is heavily encouraged, and even though we "see" our numbers, I believe the roleplay is the most attractive part of the game.
As far as pricing, many started playing Gemstone on Genie and it is my understanding the cost was $6/h or greater at that time. I started on AOL and Prodigy (yes, multi-accounted from the beginning) when you payed the access fee for AOL/Prodigy plus $2.95/hour. When AOL and Prodigy went unlimited it was a break to us AOHellers (as we are fondly known as). Then the Play.net site was established in 1997 and how luxurious to pay such a small fee for the game that we loved!
Come look us over, there are several games in different genre. Even a graphical game that was the graphical gaming leader in it's day of development, Cyberstrike.
You will find community, challenge, roleplay, grinding, quests, fantasy, minimal graphics, but oh, what the mind can see with text! Do I sound like a poster for Simutronics? I have played Gemstone for over 12 years, allowed my children to play, and even met and taken my children to Simucon because of the character of the player base of these games.
You will definately get your moneys worth and yes, I am anxiously awaiting Hero's Journey!
Mikare
Gemstone IV
http://www.play.net/gs4/
I have no information on how pricing will be structured and I cannot say anything about how the leveling and end game experience will be, but your post is one of the most speculative and uninformed posts I have ever read on this forum. That pricing structure makes no sense to me and your perception of level "grinding" may be skewed by how most games have previously done it.
World Builder GM
Hero's Journey
Gemstone and Dragonrealms have always had small populations, thus the need for tiered pricing, ticketed events etc. HJ is aiming for a large population, multiple servers etc. Tiered pricing would be counterproductive for that goal.
As far as the experience model they'll use, I doubt it will be what you see in Gemstone. Gemstone is about roleplaying not power leveling. The experience model that they use is there to promote more roleplaying and less power leveling since it will take you forever to reach max level even if you do grind all the time. HJ is supposed to be about more fun and less tedium which tells me that they want to appeal to a wider audience than Gemstone does. If they use the Gemstone model then they certainly won't be living up to their motto.
Bottom line is you can't compare HJ to Gemstone and Dragonrealms just because they're all made by the same company. Their MUD's are targeted towards a certain player base while HJ is going to be targeted to a wider player base.
Might I also remind everyone of the Hero's Journey design Motto:
"More Fun, Less Tedium"
I think that being forced to grind and farm to succeed in a game falls under the tedium category.
-------------------------
"An area decorated in blood, is an area decorated with love."
- HJ-Rowell
Former Simutronics Staff (ASGM)
Hero's Journey - World Building Team
http://play.net/hj/
Ahh, but the motto is 'less tedium', not 'no tedium'.
There WILL be tedius parts, there has to be - if there wasn't everybody would be max level all the time.
Well fuck that
This is the honest opinion of someone who doesn't make a whole lot of cash and still manages to pay for cable internet and 50$ video games
Okay we have had a HJ person respond to this speculation and that response didn't even address the subject. Never fear the next one will
. And Yakri, I am with you 100% on that one.
I personally am always interested in game-play, and not interested in the whole "gotta get to the END-GAME!!!" If you're not enjoying a game till "end-game" then the game is crap, period.
The fact that the first post in this topic is made with broad assumptions based on games not even in the graphical MMORPG category, with prices that are the equivalent to buying pretty much a new game a month really surprises me that people actually think that Simutronics would charge that much for a subscription. Especially when their competition is charging $15-20 a month.
I don't know how much the monthly subscription rate will be for Hero's Journey; that's not my department. But to get all fired up and angry over a post that gives out assumed prices really isnt fair. Sure, Simu has not been forthcoming with a lot of information lately. And, to be honest, I'm certain they have their reasons. My suggestion is, if the information isnt from Simu, don't count it as credible.
$45 a month for a subscription to an MMO.....where do people come up with that stuff? No company would ever charge that, unless then entire industry was (and.....it isn't).
-------------------------
"An area decorated in blood, is an area decorated with love."
- HJ-Rowell
Former Simutronics Staff (ASGM)
Hero's Journey - World Building Team
http://play.net/hj/
they saw it on the interweb, so it must be true!
They actually have once. But long time ago. Ok, not THAT scheme, but about tiered pricing. Back at simucon 2004.You can see it on the video Q&A. (at Hero´s Hall)
The question is, "Will there be Tiered Pricing?", And David answer "Yes!" and they move on to the next question.
But if it still means they will, I have no clue, as so many other things about this game...
__________________________
Reality is for people who lack imagination
DR and GS both have 45 dollar premium pricing (even more for platinum) you should read the post of where I came up with these numbers (mainly because I HAVE been paying this much for a MUD). So, if a text based game can garner 45 bucks a month why not a full on MMORPG. It's not a huge leap for Simu.
HJ Rowell-
You may honestly believe that HJ won't be tiered but like Simu has officially said " YES!". Then the basic is almost certainly going to be 15 bucks (going rate for most MMOs nowadays) and the premium probably 30-50 dollar range. (which is what it is in DR and GS Simu's current bread and butter games). This pricing regime is NOT complete made up out of nowhere . This is just basic logic, which personally is reasonable to me.
If they can give the depth in a graphical MMO that they do with their MUDs then I would happily pay the money for a premium service. I just do not think the technology is there yet or that anyone can have that big of an art department but you never know.
And in Dragonrealms I do not feel any kind of grind or any real need level. I just rolled a bard a few days ago and I am still circle 1. I have been more worried about learning my smoke images than most of my other skills.
As far as the grind goes. I don't care.
In playing DR for around 7 years, I only made it to around 45th circle. Though during that time I started a group that took over Leth Deriel, which prompted a visit from the Prince of Zoluren, which lead to us being put in charge of Dirge. Two wars, numerous personal vandettas(against Humans of course), some awesome RP in general. Tons of events to deal with...ect. ect. ect. Sort of filled up my time as opposed to going to the random monster spawn point or practicing my mech lore.
So no, the grind didn't effect me much and I doubt it would effect anyone who really got involved in the world. Of course, HJ may not be as well defined as DR is but looking at Simu's history, I have to guess it will be.
Now the price is truly what concerns me. The reason why I stopped playing is because I couldn't afford to pay that much for premium service anymore yet because of it I missed out on a lot of thing (including better places to 'grind'). For instance, I hunted gargoyles. Since my character's main stomping grounds were Dirge...when I was Premie I could take a quick trip to the gargs just north of Crossings, but once I couldn't pay I had to take a ferry, travel through a whole region, then take a gondola in order to hunt something around my combat level. When you're premie you get to be involved in festivals earlier, or exclusively(My most favorite exclusive festival was the Ice Fest.) which held a lot of events that influenced my character directly...once I couldn't pay that money, I lost access to all that stuff. Not to mention the merchants and all the other things (alterations) that a lot of people cared a lot about.
Basically, what I'm saying is that if the game comes close to resembling the other Simu games as far as content and PC influence in the game world....it will be spectacular, but if I have to pay extra (more than the standard game price) in order to be more involved...forget it. I will, however, pay an extra 5 to 10 dollars to have a well policed RP server.
I guess we'll have to wait and see.
I played DR for about 7 years also. The real strength of DR was the roleplaying, game mechanics (best battle system ever), and game lore.
The problem for HJ is it will not be a dedicated roleplaying game. It will be an MMORPG, but in DR, if you were caught talking OOC by another player, you could be reported and have your account banned for a 24 hour period. Do it more than once and eventually they will close the account. They were that serious.
Already, they have stated they will no have an RP server. If that's the case, then they can't expect the same pricing structure for HJ.
My best guess? $15 a month for one character slot and $2 a month per character after that. They will probably offer a premium option around $25 or $30 a month. Quite frankily, without an RP server, I won't be doing the premium option.
P.S. I was a gamehost for DR for over a year, so I have a tad more insight, but not much more than a player of several years experience with the game. Still, it was interesting to work on the other side and see how Simu handled their clients. They really did respect their players a great deal and we were always on our toes to make sure we handled each player request as professionally as possible. They really did care, even though you still got the complainers who thought they didn't. Simu just wasn't advertising their policies, something they should do because it's extremely relevant and important.
Well I am trully hoping that the max level isn't acheivable and that the gaming model here is representative of DR and GS.
I don't care for power levelers and I believe Simutronics will stick to their current methods if people don't like it they can go play the standarad MMORPG dross that is currently being churned.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Can you say where they have said they'll not have roleplaying servers? I haven't seen that information, but this movie says they will. www.youtube.com/watch Admittedly, it was from 2006, so it was a bit ago.
O noes, the xp table makes it so you can't get to the end game within a week!!!1
...So?
Gemstone isn't about the endgame. Although there are things to do at the endgame (you can still gain experience to get more skill), it's not like other MMOs where it's all about said endgame. The XP chart is therefore irrelevant to the game's fun.
It's also wrong. That chart assumes that you gain 1k xp an hour. No, you gain 1.5k on average. Furthermore, in GS they have something called the "Gift of Lumnis", which allows you to gain experience three times faster for three hours, then two times faster for three hours, once every week.
As for $45.00 a month...Yeah, premium service always did irk me, honestly. As did character slots. They better not do that in HJ.