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SWG-Type skill system
dudemantg
Member Posts: 25
So I know there are those complainers out there that can't get over swg being ruined, that not what I'm trying to be. I simply would like to know if there are any games with as open of a skill systems and profession system as swg had. Would just like to know because I feel like that would be a good place to start when looking for a new mmo to play.
Thanks for the input guys.
Comments
theres none
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
There aren't many skill based mmorpg's.
Two that come to mind are:
Ultima Online (Really the first MMORPG with large market penetration)
Saga of Ryzom (the current owners of the game are currently in bankruptsy so its future is in doubt.)
May be others if you keep looking.
Yea, would be nice if we had just ONE good MMO with an open skill system...
Just as a side note; the reason you don't really see a whole lot of open skill tree/profession systems is because they're typically a nightmare to balance and make every tree worthwhile, but not overpowered. It's one of those things that we're really not going to see much of again, simply because of the amount of development time usually required to get this type of system in relatively acceptable balance.
It really is surprising........
Why havent any developers picked up on this? Its obvious there is a market for a new game that utilizes the skill box system instead of levels. I think it has more to do with lazy developers willing to ride the coat tails of successful level based games like WOW. Everyone is trying to get a little piece of another games player base instead of making an exciting new game with a different system of mechanics that would net them their own exclusive audience.
It would be really great to have another game that plays like classic SWG did. I guess Im spoiled but I just cant go back to the boring old level grind after playing something so much better.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Skill based character systems are inherently more difficult to balance as each skill must be weighed not just against each other, but in combinations and exclusion of other skills as well. More, adding additional content forces devs to rebalance everything. This is veritable nightmare if the game supports any kind of pvp. Consequently, there are very few that are willing that take on this design approach. SWG had the advantage of coming out relatively early in the MMORPG genre evolution and had killer IP on which to build.
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Yeah i guess it is hard to balance but even swg wasn't that balanced and it was still tons of fun just because of all the different options you had and how everyone was different. I think that was the key of SWG's awesomeness, because if you think about it swg had limited endgame play so you could go back and play new professions for fun, that would be less time consuming for devs. Just my thoughts.
and this comes from ?
Experience with the industry. SWG and it's system held by a lot of people as an example of one of those mechanics which looked good on paper, but just isn't quite entirely realistic for actual implementation.
If you ask someone that's actually working in development or managing the development of a MMO about what SWG taught them, the skill system is bound to come up with an answer similar to what I just said. The industry has moved on for the most part towards twitch-skill based games and oversimplified condensed MMO games like WoW. The days of sandbox games being put out by companies of note are pretty much over. Maybe in the future we'll see a revival, but not until WoW and it's clone's popularity dies out.
Yeah i guess it is hard to balance but even swg wasn't that balanced and it was still tons of fun just because of all the different options you had and how everyone was different. I think that was the key of SWG's awesomeness, because if you think about it swg had limited endgame play so you could go back and play new professions for fun, that would be less time consuming for devs. Just my thoughts.
lol. While I admire your reverence of the system, everyone was far from different. There were tons of cookie-cutter templates that a large majority of the player base used, but again, this comes back to balancing. I honestly did not enjoy the grinding up of professions, so honestly the "replayability" factor isn't really there for me, personally. Most of the classes did not play all that differently.
and this comes from ?
Experience with the industry. SWG and it's system held by a lot of people as an example of one of those mechanics which looked good on paper, but just isn't quite entirely realistic for actual implementation.
If you ask someone that's actually working in development or managing the development of a MMO about what SWG taught them, the skill system is bound to come up with an answer similar to what I just said. The industry has moved on for the most part towards twitch-skill based games and oversimplified condensed MMO games like WoW. The days of sandbox games being put out by companies of note are pretty much over. Maybe in the future we'll see a revival, but not until WoW and it's clone's popularity dies out.
Yeah i guess it is hard to balance but even swg wasn't that balanced and it was still tons of fun just because of all the different options you had and how everyone was different. I think that was the key of SWG's awesomeness, because if you think about it swg had limited endgame play so you could go back and play new professions for fun, that would be less time consuming for devs. Just my thoughts.
lol. While I admire your reverence of the system, everyone was far from different. There were tons of cookie-cutter templates that a large majority of the player base used, but again, this comes back to balancing. I honestly did not enjoy the grinding up of professions, so honestly the "replayability" factor isn't really there for me, personally. Most of the classes did not play all that differently.
i liek pie plz
Played almost everything...
Currently playing nothing...
Waiting for: Darkfall, WAR, Guild Wars 2.
a open skill system
complex , fun and involved crafting system
unique resource system
if only a game that had that was around
FU SOE
I agree with what you are saying about the cookie-cutter mixes for the best profession combo's but i still think that your explanation of why this style of game hasn't been implemented is a small piece of the reason, there has to be more to it than, "Oh, it just takes too much time"
Well, it's more than "oh, it just takes too much time" since the balancing almost never ends with a system like that. You'd have to expend a lot of effort after release as well into keeping the professions balanced, and it's one of those things where it can never be perfectly in balance...and that doesn't really sell well.
So what your saying is that in non swg-type skill systems its easy to maintain balance? Because that was certainly not the case in my time in WoW, it seemed like every few weeks they would "nerf" a class or make a class better to keep balance. I believe this is a problem in any game. By the way, posts will still be accepted of game titles with similar class systems to swg pre-nge just to stay on topic.
There are a couple of games like that :
Runescape / Ashen Empires / Eternal Lands ... etc
A fair point, but balancing a basic class system is easier. Even though they're never perfectly in balance either, they're never so far out of whack that a class becomes unplayable (if they are, well, then there's something wrong with the developer). There were a lot of classes and combinations in SWG that were virtually useless at one point or another, and that's simply because with such a large tree and the fact that you have to balance combinations too...well, yeah.
There's the depth issue too, from a money standpoint, a game based off of the SWG system will probably only appeal to a niche crowd at this point.
check out WELL online
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/150416
its in closed beta, russian, and sounds really cool!
A fair point, but balancing a basic class system is easier. Even though they're never perfectly in balance either, they're never so far out of whack that a class becomes unplayable (if they are, well, then there's something wrong with the developer). There were a lot of classes and combinations in SWG that were virtually useless at one point or another, and that's simply because with such a large tree and the fact that you have to balance combinations too...well, yeah.
There's the depth issue too, from a money standpoint, a game based off of the SWG system will probably only appeal to a niche crowd at this point.
fair enough thanks for the insight.
and this comes from ?
Experience with the industry. SWG and it's system held by a lot of people as an example of one of those mechanics which looked good on paper, but just isn't quite entirely realistic for actual implementation.
If you ask someone that's actually working in development or managing the development of a MMO about what SWG taught them, the skill system is bound to come up with an answer similar to what I just said. The industry has moved on for the most part towards twitch-skill based games and oversimplified condensed MMO games like WoW. The days of sandbox games being put out by companies of note are pretty much over. Maybe in the future we'll see a revival, but not until WoW and it's clone's popularity dies out.
Yeah i guess it is hard to balance but even swg wasn't that balanced and it was still tons of fun just because of all the different options you had and how everyone was different. I think that was the key of SWG's awesomeness, because if you think about it swg had limited endgame play so you could go back and play new professions for fun, that would be less time consuming for devs. Just my thoughts.
lol. While I admire your reverence of the system, everyone was far from different. There were tons of cookie-cutter templates that a large majority of the player base used, but again, this comes back to balancing. I honestly did not enjoy the grinding up of professions, so honestly the "replayability" factor isn't really there for me, personally. Most of the classes did not play all that differently.
What SWG taught them? If they got what you are saying from what happened to SWG then they didn't learn anything - such a shame dev's don't listen to what players are actually saying instead of making up reasons why they think this or that happened.
SWG "mislead" their player base, they made wholesale changes without really consulting their fan base... I could go on, but their failing was not because of their open skill tree system. They had an alpha class - it wasn't about open skill tree balance, it was about having an alpha class and the balance challenges that introduced. Too many cry babies so they changed it - Jedi are now like everyone else.
Plus you entirely forgot about UO in your arguement - a very successful game in it's own right with open tree development.
EVE is open as well.
AC1 is open.
The fact is open skill tree's work if done right - EVE, Asheron's Call and UO are extremely good games and SWG is fondly remembered for the game it once was.
WoW is not a better game nor does it get more subscribers because of their class system, WoW is a better game and has more subscribers because they took away the level grind, they put in tons of things for players to do, they made it fun, they made seperate pvp servers... I could go on and on and on....
And I am going to go one step further and say there are less balance issues in EVE Online, Asheron's Call and UO then in WoW.
WoW is continually adjusting class balance even today.
UO, Eve, and AC are not the type of skill systems I am talking about. You're talking about an actual player skill reliant system over a system that meshes typical MMORPG ability/spell mechanics with a tiered profession tree.
The skill trees that SWG used are not similar to the systems really used in any of those. Eve is the only one that really has a case, and the only reason it works in that is because the game is focused more towards your ship and cash rather than the skills you have. There is dependence on skills to some extent, but most of the "required" skills to get the most out of the game don't require massive time sinks. And it's also balanced out by the fact that you don't actively gain skills through XP, it's gathered over time spent with the game.
The issues arise when you implement limits like there were in SWG, rather than using something like skill decay or not having any limits at all.
Personally I would much rather have an open skill system then the rigid ;pre NGE SWG one.
There are some that mix class with a skill system, like Rappelz.
But you are correct there are not any skill based systems at present in any of the new games.
I would tend to disagree with the statement that they are inherently harder to balance, DAoC had a rigid class system and they never balanced it ever.
and FU EA
and FU EA
I'll toast to both of those.Yes SWG was hard as fuck to balance. It's obvious with the amount of nerfs handed out when compared to the amount of new content. However once Jedi's started appearing on the servers, everything went to shit. As stated in a previous post, you can't have an alpha class! If anything this is the ONLY thing SOE "fixed" to keep jedi they had to make them just another class. However if they would have just kept it as it was in the beginning with no hints on how to unlock with perma-death. Everything would have been fine and dandy. Yeah I said dandy, what of it?
P.S. FU Smed
_________________________________
Currently Playing: Eve-Online
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I followed SWG pretty closely before release and I always thought the jedi thing was a bad idea. If you're gonna set the game during the classic era YOU DONT ALLOW JEDI PCs. If you want to have jedi PCs (since half the player base want to play jedi) you chose a different timeline. They couldve gone WAY back in SW history and they wouldve had MUCH more freedom (assuming LA wouldve allowed it).
Back to the topic of skill systems. Honestly, I still feel like skill based system are almost completely superior to class/level based. Really, I have a hard time believing that a skill based system cant be balanced.