The American Founding Fathers - A Question

gnomexxx · October 2007

I have a question for MMORPG.com members.

Do you think the American founding fathers would consider what we're living under now tyranny?

Don't just shoot off a response. Think about it first. Seriously, don't let your political persuasion or whatever get in the way. Just think about the founding fathers, what they fought to establish for American's of their time and the future, and then give your opinion.

I'm really curious what you guys think.

tvalentine · October 2007

no, why would they?

WantsumBier · October 2007

I think they would be a little pissed about all the taxes, but I do not see a link to tyranny.

Gorair · October 2007

answer to your question ... no

for other more realistic reasons ... very.

Adreal · October 2007

Originally posted by gnomexxx

I have a question for MMORPG.com members.
Do you think the American founding fathers would consider what we're living under now tyranny?
Don't just shoot off a response. Think about it first. Seriously, don't let your political persuasion or whatever get in the way. Just think about the founding fathers, what they fought to establish for American's of their time and the future, and then give your opinion.
I'm really curious what you guys think.

America has gained some freedoms and lost some. There is no longer slavery. Women can vote. African Americans are treated like free American citizens. However, I predict a shady future for America during this new War on Terror. I believe that many freedoms will be sacrificed for the sake of security and protection. Whenever a crisis of state is declared the door is opened for the potential loss of freedom.

Take the Great Depression for example. Franklin D. Roosevelt had a fair opportunity to turn the Democratic Republic of the United States into a form of despotic government. He was elected for four terms and enacted a fair amount of legislation that gave financial stability to United States' citizens while strengthening the hold of the federal government over the People by increasing the amount of regulation it had in the free market.

Adreal · October 2007

Originally posted by WantsumBier

I think they would be a little pissed about all the taxes, but I do not see a link to tyranny.

I think we should throw another tea party.

CactusmanX · October 2007

In certain ways we have carryed on the dream yet other catergories we have lost freedoms. They probably wouldn't consider modern America to be living under tyranny, yet, but we would be close by their standards. In other words we are slowly slipping back into tyranny. Though I would consider America to be more tyranical than they would.

Ampallang · October 2007

Its unlikely they would consider us to be living under a tyranny but I think they would probably be most disappointed with the current status quo.

frodus · October 2007

DAM RIGHT,its a tyranny !! The gov has gotten so far from what they invisioned it not funny,lets start with the borders,out of control,social security going broke because it was put in place to buy votes, and its broke.Goverment education is another one,made to dumm the masses down to make them more submisof and easyer to control.A tax code that u have to hire people to file for u cause u cant understand it ,and yes the founders are rolling over in their graves.Here is one for u,for ever 3 dollers that gets spend to fight poverity only 1 doller makes it to the poor,or here a better one 73 precent of all black youth are born with out a daddy in the home,why u may ask.... WELL FAIR.And how many of u would vote for someone that would give u an education or a grant to go to collage,If u can vote your self goodys then your freedoms are all ready gone,The founders most of all wanted us to help each other out and be apart of the hole,Power comes from us and then is loaned to the goverment.

Tuor7 · October 2007

I think they would conclude that we've become the very thing they rebelled against -- in spirit if not in fact. Some of them suspected this might happen, and they tried to design our government to minimize (or at least delay) it.

kimmar · October 2007

Originally posted by Tuor7

I think they would conclude that we've become the very thing they rebelled against -- in spirit if not in fact. Some of them suspected this might happen, and they tried to design our government to minimize (or at least delay) it.

I think you're right about the loss of the spirit of freedom.

The spirit of freedom entails our wanting to take care of ourselves without dependence on the government. We've, for all practical purposes, become a nanny state. We expect things from our government that go far beyond what the founding fathers envisioned.

That being said, I can however see where some things are needed that the founding fathers did not foresee. For instance, there is a girl I work with who was recently a victim of mob bullying. She had to put up with so much stress at work that she began to become ill. It was not her fault, there was just a coworker that decided she didn't like her. Instead of keeping it to herself she tried to bring as many people as possible to her side. She did a good job of it too since the girl I work with is too nice to say anything to anyone.

Eventually she ended up going to management about the situation but they did nothing about it. She then got diagnosed with stress related migraines and ulcers. I told her to document all of the problems the coworker was causing and her trips to management. She ended up suing the company and won.

In this case laws were put in that protected our modern workplace. Had they not been added then I'm not sure what this coworker of mine could have done.

So, I'm not so dumb as to not realize that some things are needed for our protection. But at the same time I think their is far too much intrusiveness of the government into our daily lives. And our tax situation is insane.

Varlok91 · October 2007

Would they consider it a tyranny?

No, i don't think they would. Some of them advocated a stronger central government and ultimately thats what happened (with lots of help from John Marshall). A loose contruction of the constitution was adopted pretty much allowing the government to constantly change.

Would they be disappointed?

Probably, but mainly because of the lack of participation in politics by Americans. I mean come on last election we had like a 55% voter turn out. If you don't like the current administration you can't really say anything if you didn't go to the polls (not saying this is anyone on these boards).

Overall we have gained and lost some freedoms along the way, but we have not lost enough to consider it a tyranny. The government constantly changes, this is nothing new. Americans need to get more involved in the elections in my opinion. Only then can we start fixing what is wrong.

lusis · October 2007

Originally posted by Adreal

Take the Great Depression for example. Franklin D. Roosevelt had a fair opportunity to turn the Democratic Republic of the United States into a form of despotic government. He was elected for four terms and enacted a fair amount of legislation that gave financial stability to United States' citizens while strengthening the hold of the federal government over the People by increasing the amount of regulation it had in the free market.

The effect of Roosevelt's policies on the Great Depression is debateable to say the least. Some say the New Deal caused the Depression to last longer, and there is ample evidence to show that. For instance, unemployment still rose after his policies were put into place, and eventually Congress repealed much of what FDR enacted in the 30's, and the Depression wound to a close just in time for WWII.

I'll give him this: he was a great wartime Commander-in-Chief. But your right, his presidency essentially marked the beginning of Big Government.

I'll say this, I think the Founders would be relieved by some things but appalled by others. Slavery was an issue that flew in the face of the principles of the Constitution, and they knew it, but they felt that freeing the slaves at that time was not the best choice for the nation, or the slaves themselves. I think they would be proud at some of the sacrifices we as a nation have made to liberate Europe and other places.

At the same time, I think they'd be appalled at the size and power of our federal government, which they tried to limit in the Constitution. They also opposed the idea of a government taking from one citizen to give to another, no matter how just the cause (i.e. welfare). And Ben Franklin said that it was a oppressive government that taxed its citizens "as much as 20%"; we currently average a 40% tax rate. Also, they felt that a government should fear it's people, which is why they granted everyone the right to bear arms, and they'd have serious problems with the way the 2nd Amendment has been ignored.

daeandor · October 2007

They would not feel we live in a tyranny. They would say that the federal government has too much power, states do not have enough power, our military is too big, our people are too lazy (uninvolved with politics and social service), taxes are too high, we meddle too much in foreign affairs, our debt is outrageous, our social programs are too far reaching, and lastly, they'd think that our current two party's are out of touch with reality and the intent of what they created.

That's all I can think of on short notice. I should ask my old man though since he has taught early American history and government for 35 years. I doubt there are many books on the subject he has not read.

paulscott · October 2007

they'd be extremely upset. massive national debt, high tax rate, their original plan for our govt didn't even include ways for the federal govt to tax...

edit: don't forget about domestic survalaince that's the last thing they would ever want.

Aguy · October 2007

Not tyranny no, it's not that bad. But I'm sure they'd be a little upset at Bush. GET THE TEA!!

truenorthbg · October 2007

Important Question.

HISTORY

When the Founding Fathers rebelled and revolted, they were the most free and most prosperous people on earth. Most people do not know this. Most public school teachers [government operated, controlled schools] do not know this either.

King George III was hardly a tyrant. He was controlled to an extent by Parliament.

Many in the British Parliament wanted to compromise [and that is all the Founders really wanted as well] such as Edmund Burke who supported the colonists. Edmund Burke is also the founder of the modern conservative philosophy.

Why were the Founders mad?

Taxes. They were mad because of the French and Indiana Wars [or Seven Years War] cost a ton of money to protect the colonists. The UK needed more money, and the war was to protect the British colonists, so they imposed taxes on the colonists to help pay to protect colonists.

Who Were The "Founders?"

The best analogy is a small business owner. These were go-getters, can-do, and independently minded individuals of tremendous courage [they took-on the British Empire, the most indomitable force!]. However, they would not have seen each other as "idols" or "gods" with perhaps the one exception of George Washington, who could have been KING OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Instead, he said that power will reside where it should - the states, the people.

They owned their own farms, breweries, masonries, blacksmiths, inter alia. They were productive individuals, innovative, creative, inventive [Benjamin Franklin]. Overall, enlightened.

TODAY

Taxes

I think there is no question that the Founders would not be opposed to the income tax. Rather, they would be appalled by it and they would be ashamed of YOU (taxpayer) for tolerating it. Most "working Americans" [those like your parents who wake up in the morning, shower, go to work, and earn their bread] pay an inordinate amount of their incomes to the USA government. Most have never studied Public Finance, and most do not know "why" they pay taxes let alone "how" their taxes are spent. It is sad if not pathetic.

Foreign Policy

The USA has not declared war since World War II. However, the USA fought many wars since then. War is a powerful business in the USA. Seriously powerful groups are involved in this, including BOTH parties. More to the point, it is why virtually ALL states not only have a military base but also military contracts doing business there. Why? The state gets money and jobs from military bases and military contractors designing weapons and building them.

So, a military contractor goes to YOUR member of Congress and says,

"Here is 200,000 to the Democratic/Republican party [often both] to build this factory in YOUR state."

Congressman says, "Great idea. WE will make jobs. And we need to be safe!."

Military Contractor, "Good luck in the election."

[Often the "leaders" and "managers" and "head sales people" in these military companies are former Officers of the US military. They retire from the US military and then work for these military companies to sell, build, and trade weapons. And of course use them, to build more, to get research money, etc.]

War is BIG, and I mean HUGE, business.

Domestic Policies: Surveillance, Wiretapping, the US Constitution

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. 4th Amend. U.S. Const.

Authorization of indefinite detentions of immigrants; "sneak and peek" searches through which law enforcement officers search a home or business without the owner’s or the occupant’s permission or knowledge; the expanded use of "National Security Letters", which allow the FBI to search telephone, email and financial records without a court order; and the expanded access of law enforcement agencies to government records, including library and financial records. USA PATRIOT ACT

The Founders authored the 4th Amend. to the U.S. Const. Today's politicians authored the USA Patriot Act by BOTH parties. Do you see a difference?

CONCLUSION

Based on the USA' foreign policy, tax policies, and domestic policies, the Founders would have been ashamed with what USA citizens tolerate.

Keep going with Bush Clinton then Bush then Clinton so that NOTHING changes, even the names of the Presidents barely change. In all seriousness, by the Founding Father's standards, this is tyranny of two parties (Democrat and Republican) whose policies are designed to benefit those who contribute the most money to their campaigns. In fact, the integrity of elections in the USA is even under assault, which is crucial to democracy: free, fair, and open elections.

cornoffcob · October 2007

truenorth, in your history section, you are quite mislead. I'm tired now and don't have the desire to type much out, but if I remember tomorrow, I'll be sure to clear up the flaws in your view of the us and it's history.

Arndur · October 2007

Originally posted by daeandor

They would not feel we live in a tyranny. They would say that the federal government has too much power, states do not have enough power, our military is too big, our people are too lazy (uninvolved with politics and social service), taxes are too high, we meddle too much in foreign affairs, our debt is outrageous, our social programs are too far reaching, and lastly, they'd think that our current two party's are out of touch with reality and the intent of what they created.

That's all I can think of on short notice. I should ask my old man though since he has taught early American history and government for 35 years. I doubt there are many books on the subject he has not read.

When half the world hates you how could your military big too big. Im a strong supporter in the war in Iraq the press does not show us what is really going on. One of my teachers had her old students come back form a tour and tell her how they are improving the country by building schools and giveing them things they never had while under Sadams rule. But sadly with a liberal press they just want to make Bush look bad. Also for people who talk about the soldiers dieing. How parents are prosting their 18-20 year old kids dieing. Their has been no recent draft they voulnetered while we were in Iraq and knew that they could serve their. I am not saying its makes their deaths any worse but those who died chose to fight it was not forced on them . They chose to help free a counrty that had known nonthing but pain and torturte for many years.

I agree that states do not have enough power.Just this year the Supreme Court took up a case on the leathal injection on the case that if the anthisesia does not knock you out you basicly sufficoate to death and i say WHO CARES.(i know for sure if they do Texas will be the first with a new way to kill them) If you have the death sentance then you killed someone and not just you suddenly got intoa fight then killed them. No its almost extremely cruel like to a child or it was planed. In geroiga a man who killed a little girl and badly hurt the rest of her famliy and is currently in for life is getting a $300,000 surgery to save his life he needs bone marrow, and guess who pays for the geroiga tax payers including the family of the little girl he killed now how wrong is that. But do you know the worse part of that.... a eldery person with no family who has been nonthing but a loyal citizen cant have a surgery becuase they cant pay for it.

I think were land of the whiners. Our debt might not be that bad if tree huggers didnt get their way and we could make new refinerys on the gulf coast(havent made one since 1976 i think) and we could mine for oil in alaska i mean really polar bares again WHO CARES. Al Gore in his movie says that the polar bear population is droping. WRONG its thriveing and he does not derserve a nobel prize for that.

The fact that a woman from mexico can illegaly cross the borders have their child here and that child be a ameraicn citizen is wrong. once they can travel send them packing to mexico. I find it funny that mexicans complain about our immgrations it funny i dont see anyone else doing that. O yeah its cuz they come here legaly. When i see them marching with the mexican flag it makes me laugh if you like your country so much why dont you go back. At a school in California a group of mexican students put the US flap upside down underneath the mexican flag. The fact that the school let them do just shows where our counrty is going.

But the one thing that tops all those are the people who wont say the pledge because it says "one nation under God" The 3 main religions in the US Chrisintiy Judism and Islam all belive in One God. As for other religions and atheise i think you can get by saying four words.

Dont know how close to topic this was but in my view i pretty much sumed up what i think the state of the country is. I am a Bush supporter and if do not what Hiliray ot Obama to become president as i am opposed of their views. And if you say im just making up a excuse for being sexist or racist no i wouldve voted for Rice or Powell unfountly Powell made it clear he would not run. If a democrat is elected that would mean a full pullout of Iraq since congress is in democratic control right now. If we pull out their then they will just follow us when they see they have no more infeidels to blow up over there.

daeandor · October 2007

Arndor, you rambled a little too much. We were just looking for what the founding fathers would think, not what we think personally or how / why we got to the state we are in.

GreenChaos · October 2007

Legalize pot bro.

gnomexxx · October 2007

Let me add more to this discussion with a quote from Jefferson...

"Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day" (sound a bit familiar of our times?)

Jefferson goes on to add...

"A series of oppressions begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through change of ministers, to plainly prove a deliberate and systematical plan of reducing us to slavery."

If this doesn't sound like something the people of today who are sick of our bloated government and its far reaching tentacles of control through taxation and force say then I don't know what does. You can take his words to the bank my friends. These were very wise men who bordered on psychic when it comes to societies and their evolutionary march towards downfall.

We need to learn what is going on and not just sit in the backseat asleep while our nanny government takes the wheel and treats us like children instead of citizens.

The founding fathers may not have all agreed that Britain was a tyrannical power for the states, but what they did agree on was that we were headed in that direction (if not already there by some of their standards). Are we not in that same boat today?

If you don't think so, then stop paying your taxes. See what power the federal government has on you then. You will certainly then face an onslaught of tyranny that you cannot begin to comprehend!

Liberty. That's what the founding fathers thought we should all have. I wonder sometimes if people even know what that word means. It's in our pledge, but the word just rolls off our tongues with no thought. It's freedom from obligation, control, and a focus put more on choice. We don't have that so much today. And we are losing it more and more with each every law that is passed in Washington. No one can argue that!

gnomexxx · October 2007

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Legalize pot bro.

I am for the legalization of drugs as well. But I suspect not for the same reason as you are.

Legalization does not mean that we begin to perceive drugs as acceptable. It instead means that we begin to confront the issue on our own instead of letting the government use it as a means of control. Drugs are a societal problem. They hurt our society in many ways. But using the government and the prisons to curb behavior is just adding to the problem.

Now, take control and responsibility of your life so that you can show individuals can best take care of themselves. Sitting around stoned and dumb is not going to help your cause if liberty is what you want.

Arndur · October 2007

Originally posted by daeandor

Arndor, you rambled a little too much. We were just looking for what the founding fathers would think, not what we think personally or how / why we got to the state we are in.

Yeah i know i get carried away with political stuff im very opionated. Personal they might agree with most of that expect for maby the Iraq. As for immgraition it might fall under forgine stuff which didnt they want a part in. After all once a peace was struck with them and Britan they basicly told the war get out and just france and spain could keep what they add.

Swafdawg23 · October 2007

RON PAUL 2008! http://thisnovember5th.com/

n25philly · October 2007

Originally posted by gnomexxx

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Legalize pot bro.

I am for the legalization of drugs as well. But I suspect not for the same reason as you are.

Legalization does not mean that we begin to perceive drugs as acceptable. It instead means that we begin to confront the issue on our own instead of letting the government use it as a means of control. Drugs are a societal problem. They hurt our society in many ways. But using the government and the prisons to curb behavior is just adding to the problem.

Now, take control and responsibility of your life so that you can show individuals can best take care of themselves. Sitting around stoned and dumb is not going to help your cause if liberty is what you want.

Definately agree with you on this one. Make drugs legal and then tax them like crazy. Then lower income taxes thanks to the money taken in through drug taxes.

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The American Founding Fathers - A Question

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