I've lost hope in MMORPGs. Goodbye fellow vets

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

Originally posted by goneglockin

The carebear gamer only amounts to a majority of anything in MMO land which they have completely hijacked for themselves. All the biggest games are PvP in one form or another. Between FPS gamers and RTS gamers alone I think carebears don't amount to shit in terms of market segment of electronic entertainment industry. Then there's whole history of mankind where games have been invented, board games, card games, sports- to pit man against a man... thousands of years of history.
Carebears won't own the MMORPG genre forever. These developers are going to tire of investing tens of millions in production costs to chug out new grind after new grind for them every year because that's the nature of carebear gaming. Grind. Max out. Get bored. Repeat in new game that plays exactly the same as the last.
PvP games offer survivability where the game needs to change little if at all to keep people playing a long, long time.
Carebears, your time as masters of MMORPG is coming to an end. You've had your chance- and everyone is bored stupid by you.

yeah this is the painful truth of it all. PVe'ers tend to burn through content. PVPers create fun for each other.

Richard Bartle classified carebears as 'achievers'. If they have no goal (like uber loot), this type will stop playing. The only players that create content for each other are socializers and killers he describes. Explorers will stick around too to experiment with game mechanics.

The only type that burns through content is achiever (aka carebear)

I like crafting and PVP. I agree that PVP has more longevity, but his message is lost in his bitter flame of carebears. Hell, I love shooting people and blowing crap up in PS and would play it today if I could get it to run. PS is the most basic lore of any MMO I've seen and has NO NPCs or MOBs whatsoever, but I love it.

No one is going to listen to you if you insult them with every sentence. Even the term carebear is derogatory.

airhead · November 2007

I have good memories from WoW.... particularly, wild fights in Booty Bay. It was a real pirate town back then. People jumping off the buildings to avoid getting killed, only to go splat on the hardwood below. And that one time some druid rooted me under water...drown... what a move.

Oh, but wait... that was during the first 6 months of WoW. Then they released battle-grounds... forgot about that. Then I quit. Well, a few good memories at least.

So YES, I agree with the OP. Everything is so anti-griefing now, that it's taken all the suspense out of the games.

So I drink to you griefers, you evil rogues and stealth types, that made some town more than just a big collection of nicely textured polygons and scripted information terminals called NPCs.... you made me look over my shoulder! In truth, you were not there as often as I would have liked... but you were there some. Now you are gone... and that age of gaming is over. We live in an economic world. A world where everyone is either maximizing their game-time, or mining virtual bits to sell to others so they can maximize their game time. The age of suspense is over. Even 'evilness' needs some economic justification anymore.

Example case in point: I went back and checked out WoW a couple of years later. I was somewhere below tanaris and saw some troll. "If it's Red, it's Dead" was always my motto. So I kill it. My chat log was then filled with screams and rants from other Alliance players, "Why did you do that? Now he is going to get his friends, and I will not be able to finish my quest of killing these 10 pigs?! You blank blank moron blank blah!!". My only regret was not having a hordite on that server, so I could have logged him in an camped them for hours.

So now... mmorpg = "let's all hold hands and mine together" .... everybody! click click click...

Huntn · November 2007

Originally posted by kodath
kudos some one finally said it

Actually this is one of the standard "the MMO is Dead" threads that are posted on a regular basis around here. Of course I don't disagree with the reasons players get frustrated with the current crop.:)

logicbomb82 · November 2007

Warhammer online = WOW. Don't expect anything special from this game.

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by goneglockin

Originally posted by Dreadlich

No one is going to listen to you if you insult them with every sentence. Even the term carebear is derogatory.

You're right. But it's like- I don't really care. Carebears hijacked the genre from real gamers and they don't deserve it. The only reason the genre is the way it is today is because of the actions of a few hundred thousand players who got the ball rolling in the late 90's. Problem was a little better than half of them decided they just wanted to "veg out" and "relieve stress."

They couldn't be simple about relieving their stress. Couldn't just light some candles, listen to soft music, go for a walk, whatever- they couldn't do it by themselves. They decided they needed an entire genre of gaming devoted to them so they could feel better about themselves, like they accomplished something in mindless content grinding. Why do they need waste bandwith online with other people to do that? Are they secretly competing with other human beings by out-achieving them? Oh they'd never admit to that- because it's not supposed to be competitive.

Everybody is just supposed to hold hands, stand around and enjoy the content together until the game is over and move on to the next one. That's why we call them carebears- and "disposable" is exactly what MMORPGs were NOT meant to be. But that's ok- because it looks like it's gonna work itself out on it's own.

Not only is keeping content hungry carebear achievers fed expensive as expansions and new games are continually needed to give them a reason to play- but the genre has gotten too big for it's britches. The console gamers are coming aboard now. You know- the ones who made Halo 3 one of the biggest sellers in recent history. FPS gamers. P-V-Motherf***ing-P'ers.

It won't be long now. So if I offend you and you don't wanna listen to me, I don't care. No one listened to us when they ruined Ultima Online- and for what? After most of those whiners got their way it didn't take long for them to completely bail on Ultima Online to go burn though more content in EverQuest. They whined to get a game changed, ruined it, and then abandoned it. Sorry if I'm not more sensitive towards these asshats.

I've been playing MMOs since 1999, RPGs since Zork and Wizardry, and gaming since pong. If I had to choose a side though, you'd probably consider me a carebear. If they make a game that's good enough people will play it. It's not my fault I don't want to play the games you like.

Huntn · November 2007

Originally posted by logicbomb82
Warhammer online = WOW. Don't expect anything special from this game.

Is there any MMO on the horizon that we should expect anything special from? BTW I just finished HL2 Episode 2 -> great great game.

Jeff44 · November 2007

Off the top of my head, I think the answer to your question is simple.

Money.

You see, the money from a "care bear" is just as good, to the company that makes the games, as yours is. And quite simply, there are a heck of a lot more of them ( plus the casual players) than there are of you these days.

If WOW did anything, it proved that point. Many of the other companies post-WOW simply changed their design specs to reflect that. They went where the money is.

Just like there is no more original D&D or AD&D (and the new 4th edition will cater to the WOW crowd), soon there will be few to no MMO's which cater to the mindset you espouse.

We are, alas, grognards before our time.

Join us at the bar for a drink and let's curse the darkness together.

Cabe2323 · November 2007

It is funny that goneglockin and other FFA PVP centric players believe that the genre ever belonged to them. The VAST majority of MMO players are PVE centric. They always have. Even back in the UO days. The majority wanted areas where they could be safe and that is why the game was changed. It wasn't a few whiners that made the game change it was the majority.

FFA PVP and PVP in general has always been a niche portion of the RPG genre. The only way that MMO games move away from that is if they move away from the RPG genre.

FFA PVP and RPG just don't go together. They are two opposites.

FFA PVP is all about the skills of the player while fighting another player. You want the thrill of knowing that you defeated another equally capable player (at least you hope for that).

RPG MMO players are all about creating a character and increasing his abilities stats and equipment. They want a world to explore and monsters to kill. A good MMORPG will make your character feel more powerful as you play by increases in levels or in your actual skills. It will allow you to get better items and encounter tougher monsters. A great MMORPG will make you feel like the hero of the story. (which imo we haven't had a GREAT mmo yet, only good and bad ones)

The very fact that RPGs are based on the premise of the longer you play the character the more developed he becomes and the stronger he becomes goes completely against the FFA PVP mechanic.

In order to have a FFA PVP RPG you would have to do away with all of your character development. Otherwise you will always have a part of the populous at the disadvantage of lower levels/skills/equipment/etc. FFA PVP would work great in a game with all the mechanics of the FPS genre. You can have classes but you can't have levels. You can have items but they either need to never drop or be pointless if you lose them.

The only gamers that want a game with the Benefits of RPGs (i.e. greater levels and items) but with FFA PVP are the "Ganker" players. These players want the ability to inflict pain on other players. They want the ability to steal other players hardwork but don't want the same to happen to them. They will claim that they want the same thrill as plain FFA PVPers, but FFA PVPers are happy with no looting.

murphys123 · November 2007

I have to agree with the OP for the most part. Logging into an MMO knowing EXACTLY what is going to happen at all times has gotten pretty lame. I do however have high hopes for Aion. Good luck to you man and let me know if you find a good game.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by Unicorns_Pwn

If you believe so strongly in opinions then maybe take your own advice and leave as you had stated. No reason to apologize for sounding condescending when technically you were in quite a few remarks that you've made on this thread. Your concrete arguments are your own just as mine or the next 5 posters that come along on this thread. You're the one who seems to hold your own opinions weight above those of others. As has been mentioned earlier there are many games that seem to fit close to your criteria but you write them off for very weak reasons such as graphics/age/population. The problem isn't the game industry the problem is you. Not every game released recently was even remotely interesting to me but I didn't go off on an online vent session to find others to make my thoughts feel rational to me. The market doesn't owe us shit, and all we can do is wait till the next games arrive. Hopefully a new game will come along to satisfy your urge but until then there is no reason to bash and ridicule others for their personal play styles. I have no problem with someone stating a preferred play style or setting to a game. I do however have a problem when people start stereotyping others just because they do not agree.

As far as for you speaking for many.. Anyone can make a statement online and find people to back it up.

Basically, you are trying to dismiss the argument entirely. There are other players here who want to debate this subject, and they are doing so. Don't jump in here and ruin the debate by trying to invalidate the entire argument.

Am I leaving? Yes, I won't be trying anything new and will play MMORPGs at a much lower rate than I have in the past, until I drop off the map. Just because I'm leaving doesn't mean I don't have a reduced right to post in these forums, any more than you do.

Am I sounding condescending? Sorry, again. I'm not here to nurture people's feelings - i'm trying to shed light on the subject we are debating.

We are debating the topic that was introduced in the original post - if you have nothing to add to the argument, please leave.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by lilune666

With all due respect to the people who are hard core fans of PVP and all it offers, it takes a rare mentality to get into it. What is challenge and passion to you, is frustration and petty drama to others. Hopefully Conan & Warhammer will provide you PVPers with something you can enjoy. Good luck finding others that give a damn, seriously.

When you burn out on the grind, you wil join us. We all made the argument you were making at one point.

You will burn out - nobody can survive grinding infinitely.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by Bane82

Harshly worded, but I agree with you. Besides, they already have PvP servers, so I still don't understand why they're whining.

The PvP servers on WoW require you to keep up with the enemy through forced raid grinding.

The PvP is not dynamic - you can't take over cities, loot enemies, reduce their numbers or lose some of your own. It's just pointless.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by tylerthedrui

Being pked wasn't the worst thing in the world. I'd rather have something to defend than simply pop back up at the healer in the BG.

Why don't we play the old games? They need a graphics overhaul, more players, and some of them are practically discontinued. For now, I'm trying out all the new MMORPGs to see if anything besides eve is worth playing.

That is funny. There are games that fits your bill, but you dismiss them on grounds of graphics, on population. There are games that are clearly not built for you and you go around complaining. I suggest you foot the bill and built your own game.

Rants and sacrasm off, back to topic: if there are not enough games in the market for you, or not enough gamers to play with you in your preferred games, then you have to adapt or leave. Ranting or posting endlessly here won't change the fact that no developer is now making the kind of game you want, not enough of them for sure, or you won't be leaving MMORPGs. If you finally decided to leave, then its all settled. Find another hobby, another way to kill idle time.

I don't like a lot of things on the shelves of boutiques or supermarkets, what can I do about that? Don't patronise them. That is the limit I can do, and that don't mean squad for anyone else.

Chances are that there is a game in development right now that hasn't been released to the press that embodies the concept many people are expecting. People who are NOT expecting this game will also be drawn to it.

Adapt or leave? What a sad, pessimistic outlook. I don't accept shit from the companies I buy things from, from my subordinates, or from the restaurants I eat at. I think you have taken your own advice already. I know the misery of PvE grinding, and know where this market will go in the end. Most players are not on the PvE or PvP side of the argument - they just gravitate towards the funnest thing offered; right now, static PvE and PvP are all that is offered.

If PvE is the ultimate form of gameplay for so many players - why don't they play EQ2, which has perfected PvE?

Don't go using the '10 million' argument again. Players can only gravitate towards what is offered.

iffymack · November 2007

for the love of god,just download and play shadowbane-it has everything you want.
dual box yourself a nice centaur druid or a nephilim warlock to powerlevel your main,join a decent guild and then enjoy baning someones city and blowing the walls down with the trebs.

best pvp game out there,with pvp thats actually meaningful for the most part.great character customisation,tonnes of different builds and runes to choose from,lots of different appearances-2 toons of the same class can perform totally differently.

excellent game

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by Orthedos

Originally posted by tylerthedrui

Oh you know as a fact that there is an army waiting to join your new game? Hmm very well informed indeed, can you give us a list of names of people in that army? Or just you and your family?
Grinders are suckers because they do not agree with you? Do not play the game you like or did they suck you day and night?
do you know all 7 million? did you conduct at least a sample study of them? how do you know the size of the discontented wow population. Heated emotions here = discontent with WoW? How about heat emotions here b/c they do not agree with you and find you ridiculous. Your logic is really very convenient for your own use. You can just about deduce any conclusion from every piece of irrelevant evidence. Heat emotion can == 100 idle people practicing english writing here during idle hours, and these 100 may not even play WoW. Your are not reasoning, you are simply randomly writing some "facts" you perceive and sticking your completely irrelevant conclusion next to that unsubstantiated facts.
I'm going to try to ignore the obvious circular logic implied in this post and point out the fact that I do indeed know several hundred WoW players. I've yet to meet one that is level 70 and not completely sick of the game - dying for a replacement. No, I don't know all 7 million - aparently you do.
If you suck at a game you deserve to die? Oh good, so they all deserve to die in your hands, so they should pay for a monthly account to create an alt and let you gank them, just for the purpose of keeping you happy? Ah ha, what next should they do? Build an altar outside their home and pay homage to you every morning and evening? You decide what we all should do, whether we should die ... hmm ... what did you smoke my friend?
Gaming is competitive - you suck, you die. That's all I meant. Perhaps you are saying that online gaming should not be competitive? Why not have a single player WoW and simply have a high score submission for players who excel at the linear gameplay set forth by the developers?
Who is the most people? You? Don't you see that this is not even an issue? This is a free country. We can do what we want even if most of the people do not feel like it. As long as we stay within the limits of the law. Last time I checked. grinding games earn the most money, does that mean most of the people actually do not agree with you, and you should be the one following them and go grind alongside? No, you need not join them, and by the same reason, they need not care for what you think.
Ugh, not the free country argument. Grinding games don't make the most money, because there are no grinding games. WoW is a game that involves many aspects, including grinding.
Just because they are grinding, does not mean that they disagree with me. There are no alternatives for them but to grind. That is a logical fallacy. You are now trying to put the entire WoW market behind you - which is just hypocritical.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by Dreadlich

So... Your saying the players are to blame for the lack of vision in today's MMO gaming market. That's downright brilliant! You're right, sooner or later they'll tire of taking the carebear's money and make dozens of games for the hundreds of people like you.
EDIT: While I totally disagree with Nomolas's amen, I do agree with the play EVE. If you want more FFA PVP games then go populate those that are showing success wether you like them or not. Game publishers do NOT care about the art of gaming, they care about money. Support your niche and stop blaming fellow gamers.

So you are saying that ALL players who play WoW are carebears?

Only a small percentage of WoW players are bent on PvE. The raiders raid because they are addicted to getting better loot, not out of a love for PvE.

There is a great financial market for a company that makes a fun game. What you are saying is that only PvE can be fun, and everyone who has played a PvE game (including me, many many, times) is a carebear.

Very sound logic.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Pay no mind. The one thing I've noticed most of these FFA PVP advocates share is a total disdain for anyone that disagrees with them.

I haven't displayed a total disdain for anyone. I'm definitely irritated with some posters in here.

{Mod edit}

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Perhaps, but have you tried looking at it from a different perspective. Such as the perspective of the majority of MMORPG players are not into competing against other human beings and would rather have fun. Competing against people in real life is hard. Depending on your field of work, it could mean you have to work out all the time, go to college, learn several languages and etc. The people who are actually competitive probably don't even play MMORPG's or even know what they are. Maybe they are too busy making themselves competitive in real life. Maybe the hardcore PvP addicts are the way they are, because they can't compete in real life. So they get their jollies off on bullying other players who play for the fun of playing with other people to conquer NPC foes to feel superior to others.
You know, I'm getting tired of responding to your posts. All you do is come on here and insult others. Your contributions to your side of the argument have been small, so my response to you will be small. Currently, you are saying that competitive players are not competitive in real life. That they are complacent, weak people who, of course, are exact opposites online (not very strong logic).
I know my perspective is a bit off, because I know I am not the only one who has done something competitive in life that the majority of the people will never ever do. But the point is that not everyone likes sports, reality television, the wild west or wars. Some people, and I bet a lot of gamers, are probably pacifists who would rather have world peace than world war. They would rather log onto a game and join a group of close friends to beat a powerful NPC boss or fend off a NPC raid than to dodge Pkers out of the city walls.
Most players do not have a 'rather'. They are here to do whatever is funnest.
But I will wait and see, not because of this argument, but because I can't stop the clock and as long as I am following MMORPG's, I will see how the genre develops. As for me, I am hoping for a few more sandbox MMORPG's WITH some content and at least a factional PvP ruleset with city building. But just because I like that sort of game doesn't make the people who play WoW carebears, wimps, or losers. Different strokes for different folks, right? Some people want to PvE, others like to PvE w/ a side helping of PvP, and still others like little PvE w/ a lot of PvP, and then you have those that want a pure PvP game, but come to MMORPGs' because ganking people who don't like PvP is entertaining. I'll admit, I have ganked a person before and it was so fun it was scary. But logic and reason won over and I knew that if I gank somebody, I am only having fun at the expense of others. Besides, ganking isn't challenging and will only be fun for a while. When you have fun at the expense of others, one thing starts to happen. Those others leave. This is what happened with Trammel. This was the big red flag to the genre that the majority does not like gankers. You will hear from more people on these forums that DAoC is the king of PvP. I tend to agree because it offers you the ability to PvP at all levels in both battlegrounds and New Frontiers AND it offers other people the ability to just PvE or craft. Not only that, but in PvP you fight for your realm and for keeps and towers. You also have a PvP ranking system called Real Ranks and you get realm points which allow you to buy special skills that can be used in BOTH PvP and PvE. You see, fun PvP w/o looting and the game caters to everyone. I'd say the game was more of a success than UO was, but this isn't the place to discuss that.
Once again, you are acting like future MMOs will play like the current generation and have such blackline differences within them as 'all out PvE/pvp' and 'crafting' Any MMORPG that tries to incorporate already-established concepts will be shot down immediately by WoW. The current MMORPGs have aspects that are completely different from the early ones, and the future ones will probably be even more radically different than what we see today.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Behind you in spirit, but you're getting almost as demeaning as them. Some people (like my wife and I) get so mentally fatigued dealing with life and 2 daughters that we just want to veg out. She'll play Neopets or Freecell or some other mindless game. I'll play strategy or something that lets me focus on something other than life for a while. Sometimes we like playing a lite MMO to relieve stress. We don't need people judging us to be inferior because of this.

PVP is not stress relieving to me. I love it, but it gets my blood pressure up and can be stressful at times. It's exciting, but that's not what I'm after most of the time. I usually want to relax when I play a game. So put away your e-peen and STFU.

Excellent post. What you said is completely true. Games like neopets will always have their place.

Among hybrid games, such as WoW, there will be much more chaos and movement. Gamers will shift from one game to the next.

PvP gets your blood boiling and is not always what you want to do in a game. Raids and hardcore PvE do the same thing.

That's why games will have to offer things that do not pump the action in too fast. When all things have been ironed out, PvP is the inevitable 'hardcore' activity. In shadowbane, there were offdays when we would have bots do PvE for us, or we would set up cities and defenses, or just travel to an allie's city and talk. (not saying shadowbane is the perfect game, believe me, it isn't). PvE can be just as action packed as PvP. Although PvE can almost never be as dynamic.

vajuras · November 2007

Originally posted by airhead

I have good memories from WoW.... particularly, wild fights in Booty Bay. It was a real pirate town back then. People jumping off the buildings to avoid getting killed, only to go splat on the hardwood below. And that one time some druid rooted me under water...drown... what a move.
Oh, but wait... that was during the first 6 months of WoW. Then they released battle-grounds... forgot about that. Then I quit. Well, a few good memories at least.
So YES, I agree with the OP. Everything is so anti-griefing now, that it's taken all the suspense out of the games.
So I drink to you griefers, you evil rogues and stealth types, that made some town more than just a big collection of nicely textured polygons and scripted information terminals called NPCs.... you made me look over my shoulder! In truth, you were not there as often as I would have liked... but you were there some. Now you are gone... and that age of gaming is over. We live in an economic world. A world where everyone is either maximizing their game-time, or mining virtual bits to sell to others so they can maximize their game time. The age of suspense is over. Even 'evilness' needs some economic justification anymore.
Example case in point: I went back and checked out WoW a couple of years later. I was somewhere below tanaris and saw some troll. "If it's Red, it's Dead" was always my motto. So I kill it. My chat log was then filled with screams and rants from other Alliance players, "Why did you do that? Now he is going to get his friends, and I will not be able to finish my quest of killing these 10 pigs?! You blank blank moron blank blah!!". My only regret was not having a hordite on that server, so I could have logged him in an camped them for hours.
So now... mmorpg = "let's all hold hands and mine together" .... everybody! click click click...

i have good memories of WoW til i discovered the honor system was a big setup to make me grind and drain my soul away for no reason.

at first I liked the BGs because i didnt have to search for competition. but then the grind set in. and then it became apparent what was going on

now my friend tells me its much better with the Arena rewards but im sure it'll took a huge time investment to get the gear

much rather just fight over a town or mine and use those mats to make armor.

im debating between trying DaOC or Shadowbane along with EVE. maybe ill go with Shadowbane

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by McGrugg

Originally posted by Bane82

I've debated long enough, my opinion has already been read by those that read my previous posts. I honestly don't feel like reiterating myself over and over again, and as for me quoting what others have said here, if you notice, I'm showing my support for what some people have had to say, are you saying I shouldn't show my support? I wasn't aware we lived in a dictatorship where showing my support or expressing myself is a crime.

There you go with your politician mannerisms. It's the way you've gone about quoting people and way you filter people into your way of quoting. Twist this post up as you see fit, honestly I'm done trying to get anything worth reading out of you. Maybe you need to learn what a forum is. It's a place for discussion. Discussion is not a pep rally.

We understand that game makers want money - and have every reason to want them to make games that will be popular and good.

{Mod edit}

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

I am a person who loves philosophy and psychology. When I state another perspective, I do not do so because I hold that perspective. I for one do not hold the perspective I said as an alternative. This, some people would call being objective, not demeaning. However, tone is lost in written word and I have to depend on the readers to guide me in my writings. If one person thinks I am being demeaning, than another probably does as well. For this I apologize, because being demeaning is not my intent.
Sorry, I'm not as well versed in such high-minded topics and psychology and philosophy. I am a humble engineer. Your much higher paycheck and esteemed area of expertise are probably the reason that you know everything about MMORPGs.
What I strive for is tolerance. This is a big world with billions of people. We as people don't always like the same things, but this doesn't mean the other person is wrong for their likes either. It is not unethical to want a different game or to have a different play style. I for one being a parent myself can symphathize with your situation. I'd go out on a limb and say that the majority of PvE gamers in the U.S. are in the same boat. They are too tired competing all day in real life to really want to compete in a game against other people.
So maybe it is a more accurate perspective to say that maybe those who are more competitive in real life are less competitive in-game since they have had their fill of competition before logging into the game, whereas a person whose life is dull may want to spice it up with a bit of virtual competition. Even still, maybe others are weak and pathetic in real life and get relief by griefing others in-game.
This is a fallacious argument. Not everything in the world involves some sort of 'opposites'. I have met rich gamers, poor gamers, and everything in between from every lifestyle. Their personal lives correlate in mysterious, twisted ways with their in-game personas that cannot be quantified with a simple 'opposites' argument. Let me guess, you have a psychology masters.
The point is, I support your right to choose your own play style. So I am not sure why you told me to put away my e-peen and STFU. I don't use that language with others and I don't like it used against me in return.
Considering all you do in this thread is insult others, I think it is very proper that others are insulting you back.
Feel free to come back and argue, rather than turning to personal attacks.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

yeah this is the painful truth of it all. PVe'ers tend to burn through content. PVPers create fun for each other.
Richard Bartle classified carebears as 'achievers'. If they have no goal (like uber loot), this type will stop playing. The only players that create content for each other are socializers and killers he describes. Explorers will stick around too to experiment with game mechanics.
The only type that burns through content is achiever (aka carebear)
{edit} however, most of us aren't 100% one of these types. so its a tricky thing to make a broad generalization. especially since most of us change as we mature (go from 100% killer to a bit of all)

Spoken with truth and an even hand.

tylerthedrui · November 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

i have good memories of WoW til i discovered the honor system was a big setup to make me grind and drain my soul away for no reason.
at first I liked the BGs because i didnt have to search for competition. but then the grind set in. and then it became apparent what was going on
now my friend tells me its much better with the Arena rewards but im sure it'll took a huge time investment to get the gear
much rather just fight over a town or mine and use those mats to make armor.

im debating between trying DaOC or Shadowbane along with EVE. maybe ill go with Shadowbane

I suggest EVE. Shadowbane is waaaay too dated.

Dreadlich · November 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

Originally posted by airhead

I have good memories from WoW.... particularly, wild fights in Booty Bay. It was a real pirate town back then. People jumping off the buildings to avoid getting killed, only to go splat on the hardwood below. And that one time some druid rooted me under water...drown... what a move.
Oh, but wait... that was during the first 6 months of WoW. Then they released battle-grounds... forgot about that. Then I quit. Well, a few good memories at least.
So YES, I agree with the OP. Everything is so anti-griefing now, that it's taken all the suspense out of the games.
So I drink to you griefers, you evil rogues and stealth types, that made some town more than just a big collection of nicely textured polygons and scripted information terminals called NPCs.... you made me look over my shoulder! In truth, you were not there as often as I would have liked... but you were there some. Now you are gone... and that age of gaming is over. We live in an economic world. A world where everyone is either maximizing their game-time, or mining virtual bits to sell to others so they can maximize their game time. The age of suspense is over. Even 'evilness' needs some economic justification anymore.
Example case in point: I went back and checked out WoW a couple of years later. I was somewhere below tanaris and saw some troll. "If it's Red, it's Dead" was always my motto. So I kill it. My chat log was then filled with screams and rants from other Alliance players, "Why did you do that? Now he is going to get his friends, and I will not be able to finish my quest of killing these 10 pigs?! You blank blank moron blank blah!!". My only regret was not having a hordite on that server, so I could have logged him in an camped them for hours.
So now... mmorpg = "let's all hold hands and mine together" .... everybody! click click click...

i have good memories of WoW til i discovered the honor system was a big setup to make me grind and drain my soul away for no reason.

at first I liked the BGs because i didnt have to search for competition. but then the grind set in. and then it became apparent what was going on

now my friend tells me its much better with the Arena rewards but im sure it'll took a huge time investment to get the gear

much rather just fight over a town or mine and use those mats to make armor.

im debating between trying DaOC or Shadowbane along with EVE. maybe ill go with Shadowbane

PVP is my one big beef with WOW. PVP servers were nothing but gankfests IMO. When BGs were introduced it was in response to PVP crowd grumbling about leaving and tacked on as an afterthought. Arena is just a forum to display your shiny e-peen. PVP in WOW is it's biggest weakness. This is all my opinion and I've defended WOW and pretty much all games before. This is one of my peeves though.

I was REALLY stoked about SB durning developement, but the potential was never realized. If you're already playing EVE and want to try an older PVP game, I'd suggest DAoC. Higher pop too.

Howdy, Stranger!

I've lost hope in MMORPGs. Goodbye fellow vets

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

I've lost hope in MMORPGs. Goodbye fellow vets

Comments