Sorry guy, not the case. She's clearly said she logs on weekly or bi-weekly...and has since the NGE...and that her account is still active
So, while your imaginary situation is interesting...it's still imaginary.
she's stealing...and lying.
oh...and p.s. She also said she wouldn't come back even if the rollback occurred earlier in this very thread because of her moral indignation...then says she's checking every week on her stolen account to see if it's gotten better.
As you said yourself, this isn't the victory you're looking for bro.
Umm.. who are you talking to? Bro? Guy? The "she" your referencing is me.
"every couple weeks" being a generalization.. I might log in for a couple days then not for 4 months then 3 days then off a year.. evens out to about once a month I suppose but "couple weeks" was just off the top of my head.
As for not going back even if they rolled back I probably wouldn't if it wasn't driven by a genuine desire to treat their customers like human beings. Thats what Im looking for when I check back and ask people how many lies and false promises they've been told by SOE since the last time I checked.
*sigh* and no I havent been signing up for free trials.. think harder and you might actually get what I'm saying.. well probably not because you like being deliberately obtuse.
Frustrating your debate opponent by feigning stupidity until they go away doesn't make you the victor.
Now, IF someone had actually gotten a lawyer who believed they had a case and IF they had filed a lawsuit and IF they had won...then maybe we'd be having another conversation.
on the other hand, IF my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.
You're wrong on both counts. If there wasn't a lawsuit but money was paid back to customers over a wrong doing then there would be no need for a lawsuit. It's called deference. They knew they did something wrong as soon as the thing went live, and didn't want to go through the problems that filing a lawsuit would cause. There were news articles and TV spots about this issue, SOE was getting enough "bad" publicity.
Secondly, if your aunt had a dick she'd be a Hermaphrodite.
I'm really still laughing at point number 2 lmao. Thanks for that
Regarding point number 1, I think it's fair to say that the NGE was a mistake. Heck even Mr. Smedley says as much now. The refund just underscores that it was wrong to market a product as one thing, knowing that it was going to be delivered as something else. I've not come across anyone that would disagree with that point.
Originally posted by Horkathane - The OP. These people want galaxies to die and are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo pissed that its actually gaining ground again. HAHAHA, yea Galaxies Strikes Back! #1 I.P. #1 Story #1 Mobs #1 Gameplay #1 Immersion #1 Fun - Im sorry but Galaxies is never gonna die....
SWG is pretty much on life support, I should know considering I'm currently on a 14 day free trial and it's pretty much as empty as I remember it during ch. 4
Originally posted by Tetters Who really cares if SWG stays or not? Are people that unpleasant and childish to want a game pulled because they don't like it? I loved the old game ... but its gone. As has been stated earlier in this thread, it was only a computer game and what was so sad was that poster was flamed for promoting real life .... so please try and grow up .... our game is gone .... there is a version of it out there that people are enjoying ... let them enjoy it and move on.
Think about it for a moment though. If you as a consumer don't let your complaints be heard until a certain product is changed back, then companies will continue to try and get away with shoddy products. Think of it this way. I remember reading somewhere that some laptops had to be recalled because the batteries were catching on fire. Now use the same logic "I can't believe you people are still arguing about X laptop, it's JUST A LAPTOP if you don't like it move on!" make sense? If consumers didn't complain, those laptops (at least the majority) would still be out there. I'm also still hearing about mass toy recalls from china, why? because the consumers and consumer protection agencies are complaining. They're trying to make sure that these companies learn their lessons and either a) FIX the problem or b) prepare for mass tribulation from both the consumers and the media.
People still talk about the "New Coke" debacle of 1985 as if it were yesterday.
LOL...who the hell are you hanging around with??? The last time I heard about the "New Coke Debacle of 1985" (other than right now) was in 1985...
Jesus man, let some things go in life...it's just too short.
Yes because whenever a company defrauds its customers we should just immediately forgive and forget and "let it go" that will most certainly prevent other companies from seeing the results and not trying it themselves.
LOL...so wait, now Coca Cola defrauded it's customers by changing the recipe for Coke...and advertising it as a changed recipe???
Wow...are you sure that the same reptillian, shape changing aliens aren't running SOE as were running Coca Cola...
BTW, you weren't defrauded...I say that again, because it's important. Can you point me to the lost dollars you suffered? Oh...that's right...you can't. A loss is kind of an integral part in claiming fraud...just so you know.
Vincenz, I want to clarify something for you.
We're dealing with two different, yet closely related, issues.
Issue 1 is the NGE
Issue 2 is how the NGE changed the value of ToOW.
Issue 1 is just pissing off your customers by mucking with your product. This is what the NGE has in common with the "new Coke".
Issue 2 is the issue of "bait and switch", or consumer fraud. This issue doesn't directly relate on the "new Coke" example...it wasn't like the folks at Coca-Cola changed the formula and denied they did it...quite the opposite, they unveiled a new product openly.
The LEGAL issue might have been issue 2. That's the one SOE dodged by changing their refund policy.
Issue 1 is still there and will never go away. The difference in the Coke example is that the Coca-Cola company reacted to negative customer feedback, and gave them back what they wanted. Coca-Cola classic, and thus established an iconic (there's that word again) product labeling template. One that is applied to many other products...people talk about, for the obvious example, SWG classic, meaning preCU.
SOE provides the mirror image business school example of Coca-Cola's story. Coca-Cola shows what you should do in reaction to massive negative customer reaction to a product change. SOE provides the example of what not to do, and the consequences of doing so.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Now that is a rational, reasonable statement Arc, and one I can support. I myself was an avid player, although I quit at the CU (or shortly after). I have all the sympathy for players who hated the NGE and CU, but I also think people forget that the majority of avid MMO players (SWG included) have received an INSANELY high "bang to buck" ratio, in the forum of 60-150 hours a month of entertainment for 15 bucks. To then turn around and accuse the same people who gave you that pleasure of criminal offenses is ludicrous. It's equally ridiculous to still be creating entirely new threads about something that happened 2 years ago...it's over...a long time ago...it's time to get over it.
The sense of entitlement running rampant in MMO forums is just off the charts out of control. When you buy the game box, know what it entitles you to? The game. When you pay the 15 bucks a month, know what it entitles you to? The ability to play on the game's servers, while they're up, in the state that the game is maintained in.
That's it. That's all. If you don't like the changes, you can vote with your dollar and unsubscribe, but you aren't owed and entitled anything else.
Even if the majority of the SWG players played for the number of hours you claim, your argument has no merrit. A hardcore gamer does NOT cost more than a 1-hour-a-week casual gamer. Overhead will still be the same. Are you next going to claim people who watch television more than 3 hours a day have to pay their cable company more than people who just watch the news? And should be happy if said company decides to pass on nothing but Teletubbies 24/7 on all channels, when in the brochure that made you decide to subscribe, they promise to relay specific broadcast companies?
Bait and switch is a convenient term (that DOES apply, in the meaning of "ploy of offering a person something desirable to gain then thwarting expectations with something less desirable"). The clearest case for prosecution could be made under the term "FALSE ADVERTISING", however.
I've gotten the relevant articles from US and EU law. Explain how these do not apply to the ToOW / NGE controversy please, so we can all have a good laugh.
§ 43 (15 U.S.C. §1125). False designations of origin; false description or representation
(a) (1) Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin, false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which--
(B) in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person's goods, services, or commercial activities, shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act.
In determining whether advertising is misleading, account shall be taken of all its features, and in particular of any information it contains concerning:
(a) the characteristics of goods or services, such as their availability, nature, execution, composition, method and date of manufacture or provision, fitness for purpose, uses, quantity, specification, geographical or commercial origin or the results to be expected from their use, or the results and material features of tests or checks carried out on the goods or services;
Personally I liked Pre-NGE and Post-NGE for different reasons. However, lets not forget that both had / have flaws too. Pre-NGE was lacking even more content than Post-NGE. I played BH at the start, to me it was the only class (with exception to crafters for obvious reasons) that had class specific quests to do. And yes, it was awful for pvp due to the incredible imbalances. So, when reading posts such as this, I think some people are perhaps looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses on.
When are some people (SOE & LA especially!) going to understand that the old SWG was a living virtual world that created it's own content.
Linear boring progression, bah! Linear force fed quest content, pfft. A real MMORPG player craves non of those things!
As for the imbalances. Yes the old game had a lot of imbalances, but mostly because some professions simple never were finished or just plain buggy. However, when most people talk about imbalance they tend to compare professions in 1 vs. 1 dueling. The combat in the old game had a lot more depth than simple duelling, just to bad that so few saw that /sigh.
I can appreciate that you feel that pre-NGE was a virtual world. I was there. I saw the populations and I do miss them.
However, one cannot blindly ignore the fact that both EQ2, WoW and other games released since SWG all indicate that a large percentage of the MMO population enjoys lore driven quest chains and deep worldwide stories that they feel they are a part of. To deny that such a desire exists is just plain naivety.
ALL mmo's in my opinion are another form of escapism. Even moreso than watching a good film. You feel like you are stripped away from your everyday life, and are enveloped in a world which you feel you are part of. Lore / storylines / quests, call them what you will help tremendously to do that. No one can despute that WoW's lore and quest storylines are some of the best in the business.
Sure, player driven entertainment has its own allure. But people love to be told good story's. This is one of the reasons why the first three Star Wars films were such a big hit in the first place.
The MMO market has changed from grindfest loving MMO's (e.g. EQ1, SWG and AO) to quest loving MMO's. Some MMO developers have realised that shift and tried to take steps to keep up for better or for worse. MMO players who create their own content can look after themselves, but those who love stories want them to be told.
Like I said originally, pre AND post NGE SWG versions have their own unique problems. Neither is perfect by a long shot. Theres no going back, only forward. The only thing SOE can do now is give the player as much choices of things to do in SWG as possible. Whether it is quest chains, player driven content, crafting or anything else. Choice can be the saviour of any MMO.
What was needed was both the sandbox, and the directed content. That would appeal to both groups.
The problem early on was that there was very little directed content, and a toolbox for creating content wasn't present.
So they managed to get the worst of both worlds. Eventually the problems with both have been addressed, but as usual, the damage had already been done.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Personally I liked Pre-NGE and Post-NGE for different reasons. However, lets not forget that both had / have flaws too. Pre-NGE was lacking even more content than Post-NGE. I played BH at the start, to me it was the only class (with exception to crafters for obvious reasons) that had class specific quests to do. And yes, it was awful for pvp due to the incredible imbalances. So, when reading posts such as this, I think some people are perhaps looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses on.
When are some people (SOE & LA especially!) going to understand that the old SWG was a living virtual world that created it's own content.
Linear boring progression, bah! Linear force fed quest content, pfft. A real MMORPG player craves non of those things!
As for the imbalances. Yes the old game had a lot of imbalances, but mostly because some professions simple never were finished or just plain buggy. However, when most people talk about imbalance they tend to compare professions in 1 vs. 1 dueling. The combat in the old game had a lot more depth than simple duelling, just to bad that so few saw that /sigh.
I can appreciate that you feel that pre-NGE was a virtual world. I was there. I saw the populations and I do miss them.
However, one cannot blindly ignore the fact that both EQ2, WoW and other games released since SWG all indicate that a large percentage of the MMO population enjoys lore driven quest chains and deep worldwide stories that they feel they are a part of. To deny that such a desire exists is just plain naivety.
ALL mmo's in my opinion are another form of escapism. Even moreso than watching a good film. You feel like you are stripped away from your everyday life, and are enveloped in a world which you feel you are part of. Lore / storylines / quests, call them what you will help tremendously to do that. No one can despute that WoW's lore and quest storylines are some of the best in the business.
Sure, player driven entertainment has its own allure. But people love to be told good story's. This is one of the reasons why the first three Star Wars films were such a big hit in the first place.
The MMO market has changed from grindfest loving MMO's (e.g. EQ1, SWG and AO) to quest loving MMO's. Some MMO developers have realised that shift and tried to take steps to keep up for better or for worse. MMO players who create their own content can look after themselves, but those who love stories want them to be told.
Like I said originally, pre AND post NGE SWG versions have their own unique problems. Neither is perfect by a long shot. Theres no going back, only forward. The only thing SOE can do now is give the player as much choices of things to do in SWG as possible. Whether it is quest chains, player driven content, crafting or anything else. Choice can be the saviour of any MMO.
What was needed was both the sandbox, and the directed content. That would appeal to both groups.
The problem early on was that there was very little directed content, and a toolbox for creating content wasn't present.
So they managed to get the worst of both worlds. Eventually the problems with both have been addressed, but as usual, the damage had already been done.
I think a mission system like in COH/COV would have worked. Not necessarily the instancing, but the smaller and larger story arcs. It could have been integrated with the mission terminals with relative ease. Mission difficulty could have been determined by the mission taker's skill with the weapon equipped, payment in proportion to skill level required, more intricate arcs as the skill level got higher. Stories to be planet-specific, so there would actually be a reason for story-o-holics to visit different planets. You could have crafter and entertainer story arcs, or arcs where there were different roads to success, or arcs that required a combination of skills for success. Better yet, you could have arcs where you could choose a rebel/imperial/neutral solution for a given problem, all giving equal XP, but the choice sliding you one way or the other.
I never DID understand why they didn't put Nyax on a mission terminal. No more camping on a timer, Nyax' headquarters spawning as a lair somewhere on Corellia, with a door that would only open for the mission taker...
I think a mission system like in COH/COV would have worked. Not necessarily the instancing, but the smaller and larger story arcs. It could have been integrated with the mission terminals with relative ease. Mission difficulty could have been determined by the mission taker's skill with the weapon equipped, payment in proportion to skill level required, more intricate arcs as the skill level got higher. Stories to be planet-specific, so there would actually be a reason for story-o-holics to visit different planets. You could have crafter and entertainer story arcs, or arcs where there were different roads to success, or arcs that required a combination of skills for success. Better yet, you could have arcs where you could choose a rebel/imperial/neutral solution for a given problem, all giving equal XP, but the choice sliding you one way or the other.
I never DID understand why they didn't put Nyax on a mission terminal. No more camping on a timer, Nyax' headquarters spawning as a lair somewhere on Corellia, with a door that would only open for the mission taker... Linna
I recall in beta a lot of things like dynamic POIs that didnt' show up after launch.
The mission terminals did provide for rudimentary story elements, but the missions were just "go to lair, kill guardians, destroy lair, collect reward" in nature. There was no system for tying missions together in an arc, or for making them terribly interesting storywise. You could invent that yourself, of course, if you so desired.
A system that told stories was desperately needed aside from the little bit of "color" that the mission terminals provided. Once you'd read them through once or twice, you were done with them, and the stories were invariably more interesting than the missions themselves, thus you had a letdown bulit into them.
The quests that did exist were fairly mundane in nature, and the rewards were pathetic. 100 credits or so, tops. Some handed out unique items for decorating your home, those were great...like the NPC who had just been reassigned from Endor to the Imp base on the hill overlooking Bestine, who handed out the Endor painting. They needed more quests like that, but as it turned out, so many of those type of quests wound up being broken and were allowed to stay that way for very long tmes. Some, like the guy north of the Agrilat on Corellia who talked up a great talk about something having to do with Darth Vader never worked at all.
Making things like Nyax more dynamic would have been a vast improvement over the static Nyax compound and the camping that it created, but I strongly suspect that there were technical issues that could not be overcome for those sort of rich dynamic content choices. They had enough troubles keeping the ship afloat as it was.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
First of all, I have no idea why you'd link the Lanham Act (trademark law) to this discussion, but regardless.
Here's where your argument becomes flawed without the judgement of a court which you'll never see in this case.
Bait and Switch, by US and EU definitions means advertising a product for sale then delivering a product that "misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person's goods, services, or commercial activities". I'm assuming that you, and others, are claiming that because of the NGE the "natures, characteristics, or qualities" of delivery didn't match what was advertised.
Now, you could sit in a courtroom and attempt to explain that the NGE changed the game and how it was played, but in reality...they advertised a massively multiplayer role playing game set in the Star Wars universe...and delivered one. They advertised a subscription to play on the SWG servers, when they were available...and they delivered this. They advertised an expansion pack that would add certain things to the original game...and they delivered that.
They changed mechanics of the game, absolutely, but they didn't change any of the above things in their most basic form. They also had disclaimers from day one that "Gameplay could Change".
Now, could you possibly convince a judge or jury that because they changed the way you became a jedi in a video game, or changed what kind of imaginary character you could be, that they were then "cheating you"? Maybe, if you had a jury full of MMO gamers who knew what the hell you were talking about. The reality though, is that the majority of the population would simply say "um...yeah...you got a Star Wars Online Game...just like they promised".
Again though, since no attorney ever believed the case to have enough merit to see the inside of a courtroom anywhere on earth, we'll never know...all we do know, is that no legal complaint has ever been brought, let alone litigated and won, regarding the NGE or ToOW, and without that...they aren't "guilty" of anything outside of the mind of people on a forum.
Linna: First of all, I have no idea why you'd link the Lanham Act (trademark law) to this discussion, but regardless. Here's where your argument becomes flawed without the judgement of a court which you'll never see in this case. Bait and Switch, by US and EU definitions means advertising a product for sale then delivering a product that "misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person's goods, services, or commercial activities". I'm assuming that you, and others, are claiming that because of the NGE the "natures, characteristics, or qualities" of delivery didn't match what was advertised. Now, you could sit in a courtroom and attempt to explain that the NGE changed the game and how it was played, but in reality...they advertised a massively multiplayer role playing game set in the Star Wars universe...and delivered one. They advertised a subscription to play on the SWG servers, when they were available...and they delivered this. They advertised an expansion pack that would add certain things to the original game...and they delivered that. They changed mechanics of the game, absolutely, but they didn't change any of the above things in their most basic form. They also had disclaimers from day one that "Gameplay could Change". Now, could you possibly convince a judge or jury that because they changed the way you became a jedi in a video game, or changed what kind of imaginary character you could be, that they were then "cheating you"? Maybe, if you had a jury full of MMO gamers who knew what the hell you were talking about. The reality though, is that the majority of the population would simply say "um...yeah...you got a Star Wars Online Game...just like they promised". Again though, since no attorney ever believed the case to have enough merit to see the inside of a courtroom anywhere on earth, we'll never know...all we do know, is that no legal complaint has ever been brought, let alone litigated and won, regarding the NGE or ToOW, and without that...they aren't "guilty" of anything outside of the mind of people on a forum.
you seem to still not get it.
WE are the judges and we judged $OE is guilty.
It is important to keep level of organisation here and keep going because we fined $OE to not have success with NGE no matter what.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Two years later and we still have an impact. "Letting it go" will come when we have satisfactory compensation.
LOL...you are owed exactly zero compensation for anything. Personally, I don't even think people were owed refunds for ToOW...but they got that anyways.
oh...and no...you don't have an impact. It's two years later, the game isn't being rolled back, the game isn't putting up Pre-CU servers, and frankly...I'd guess that SOE considers it's former players as just that.
What was needed was both the sandbox, and the directed content. That would appeal to both groups. The problem early on was that there was very little directed content, and a toolbox for creating content wasn't present. So they managed to get the worst of both worlds. Eventually the problems with both have been addressed, but as usual, the damage had already been done.
100% agree. I believe that the basis of making any good MMO - Choices.
Yes, there used to be a huge population because of pre-NGE. But also, yes the post-NGE gives a sense of direction in the gameplay and people enjoy the lore and quests that it now has.
The more choice a player is given in an MMO, the more it can cater for a larger and wide ranging audience.
MMO devs are slowly realising this (e.g. Vanguards diplomacy).
swg STILL has the foundation to be a great game, but it will take a lot of marketing, development and communication on what the devs have in mind for SWG's future in order to proceed.
But the fact remains....it CAN be done. But the devs have to take the first step.
Well, in a perfect world I'd totally agree. However, in the real world, the majority of MMO players want WoW. In the real world, the majority of MMO makers want WoW. Every time a game comes out that departs from WoW and does something new...it ends up taking on more and more characteristics of WoW. If a game designer could be content with 20-50k subs, set that as their goal, and be happy? They could make a true, original MMO. Unfortunately, no one wants to make that MMO.
Well, in a perfect world I'd totally agree. However, in the real world, the majority of MMO players want WoW. In the real world, the majority of MMO makers want WoW. Every time a game comes out that departs from WoW and does something new...it ends up taking on more and more characteristics of WoW. If a game designer could be content with 20-50k subs, set that as their goal, and be happy? They could make a true, original MMO. Unfortunately, no one wants to make that MMO.
I think that if game designers would stop trying to take players away from wow and focus more on the people that dont play wow they could pull more than 20-50k subs. The only thing they should steal from wow is how stable and polished it is. Don't launch a game in the condition that VG was in and expect people to come flocking to your game. Isnt going to happen. If you produce a good quality product and actually support it the numbers would probably be much higher. No they will not touch WoW's but you dont need to have 9 million people to turn a profit. How many developers would be thrilled to have 300k - 500k right now?
Really the bottom line is you are not going to beat wow with a wow clone. You are NEVER going to beat wow no matter what you design. Stop trying and make a game for the rest of us that don't play wow.
Two years later and we still have an impact. "Letting it go" will come when we have satisfactory compensation.
LOL...you are owed exactly zero compensation for anything. Personally, I don't even think people were owed refunds for ToOW...but they got that anyways.
oh...and no...you don't have an impact. It's two years later, the game isn't being rolled back, the game isn't putting up Pre-CU servers, and frankly...I'd guess that SOE considers it's former players as just that.
Of course we have an impact. Why else would SOE have said "don't make our mistakes"?
The impact was felt and is continuing to be felt. Word of mouth is a very powerful tool, and word of SOE's questionable methods is the albatros around thier necks.
Of course we have an impact. Why else would SOE have said "don't make our mistakes"? The impact was felt and is continuing to be felt. Word of mouth is a very powerful tool, and word of SOE's questionable methods is the albatros around thier necks.
LOL...keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night. Meanwhile SOE will continue to turn a profit, continue to acquire assets, continue to release new games, and you'll continue to complain on a message board about something that happened in a video game 2 years ago.
I can see Pirates of the Burning Sea being a pretty successful game, btw...and I pretty much guarantee that Star Wars Galaxies isn't going to have an ounce of effect on it.
Of course we have an impact. Why else would SOE have said "don't make our mistakes"? The impact was felt and is continuing to be felt. Word of mouth is a very powerful tool, and word of SOE's questionable methods is the albatros around thier necks.
LOL...keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night. Meanwhile SOE will continue to turn a profit, continue to acquire assets, continue to release new games, and you'll continue to complain on a message board about something that happened in a video game 2 years ago.
I can see Pirates of the Burning Sea being a pretty successful game, btw...and I pretty much guarantee that Star Wars Galaxies isn't going to have an ounce of effect on it.
Tell me. why did SOE feel the need to do damage control? Why did Sigil try to ensure their followers in Vanguard beta that SOE was only publishing and not developing? Why did Smed and SOE, on seperate occasions, feel the need to address the public and say that mistakes were made?
Why do gaming web sites and mags contiually bring up post-NGE in interviews if it's a non-story?
It's obvious that SOE has been on damage control for 2 years. Why would someone need to be on damage control if there was no damage to control?
LOL...like I said Suv, whatever makes you sleep better at night. If that happens to be thinking that you're changing the world by posting about a change in a video game that happened to years ago...go for it.
LOL...like I said Suv, whatever makes you sleep better at night. If that happens to be thinking that you're changing the world by posting about a change in a video game that happened to years ago...go for it.
So what you're saying is you have no answer for me?
The answer is that Sigil stated SOE was publishing and not developing...because that was the truth.
Smedley said that no listening to fans enough was a mistake...OOOOOO!...yes, it must be because he read Suvroc complaining on the mmorpg message board. Or, it could be because that's the kind of thing fans want to hear as you promote new games...
As far as a "non-story"? Not sure that it qualifies as that, it was certainly a "landmark" in MMO development. I do think it qualifies as something that it's really time to get over your emotional attachment to, however.
it was a video game...two years ago...that you liked to play...now it's not...that's it.
Originally posted by Vincenz it was a video game...two years ago...that you liked to play...now it's not...that's it.
Too big words for someone who helped by big part to raise postcount in a thread with subject "hate the ..NGE" and get max views to top of the roof.
/thanks
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Too big words for someone who helped by big part to raise postcount in a thread with subject "hate the ..NGE" and get max views to top of the roof. /thanks
and this would be exactly my point about this fantasy that you're making some big change or difference.
Dude, are you really under the impression that people at Sony give a rat's ass what the post count on an NGE hater thread on mmorpg.com is???
Comments
Umm.. who are you talking to? Bro? Guy? The "she" your referencing is me.
"every couple weeks" being a generalization.. I might log in for a couple days then not for 4 months then 3 days then off a year.. evens out to about once a month I suppose but "couple weeks" was just off the top of my head.
As for not going back even if they rolled back I probably wouldn't if it wasn't driven by a genuine desire to treat their customers like human beings. Thats what Im looking for when I check back and ask people how many lies and false promises they've been told by SOE since the last time I checked.
*sigh* and no I havent been signing up for free trials.. think harder and you might actually get what I'm saying.. well probably not because you like being deliberately obtuse.
Frustrating your debate opponent by feigning stupidity until they go away doesn't make you the victor.
Secondly, if your aunt had a dick she'd be a Hermaphrodite.
I'm really still laughing at point number 2 lmao. Thanks for that
Regarding point number 1, I think it's fair to say that the NGE was a mistake. Heck even Mr. Smedley says as much now. The refund just underscores that it was wrong to market a product as one thing, knowing that it was going to be delivered as something else. I've not come across anyone that would disagree with that point.
SWG is pretty much on life support, I should know considering I'm currently on a 14 day free trial and it's pretty much as empty as I remember it during ch. 4
Think about it for a moment though. If you as a consumer don't let your complaints be heard until a certain product is changed back, then companies will continue to try and get away with shoddy products. Think of it this way. I remember reading somewhere that some laptops had to be recalled because the batteries were catching on fire. Now use the same logic "I can't believe you people are still arguing about X laptop, it's JUST A LAPTOP if you don't like it move on!" make sense? If consumers didn't complain, those laptops (at least the majority) would still be out there. I'm also still hearing about mass toy recalls from china, why? because the consumers and consumer protection agencies are complaining. They're trying to make sure that these companies learn their lessons and either a) FIX the problem or b) prepare for mass tribulation from both the consumers and the media.
LOL...who the hell are you hanging around with??? The last time I heard about the "New Coke Debacle of 1985" (other than right now) was in 1985...
Jesus man, let some things go in life...it's just too short.
Yes because whenever a company defrauds its customers we should just immediately forgive and forget and "let it go" that will most certainly prevent other companies from seeing the results and not trying it themselves.
LOL...so wait, now Coca Cola defrauded it's customers by changing the recipe for Coke...and advertising it as a changed recipe???
Wow...are you sure that the same reptillian, shape changing aliens aren't running SOE as were running Coca Cola...
BTW, you weren't defrauded...I say that again, because it's important. Can you point me to the lost dollars you suffered? Oh...that's right...you can't. A loss is kind of an integral part in claiming fraud...just so you know.
Vincenz, I want to clarify something for you.
We're dealing with two different, yet closely related, issues.
Issue 1 is the NGE
Issue 2 is how the NGE changed the value of ToOW.
Issue 1 is just pissing off your customers by mucking with your product. This is what the NGE has in common with the "new Coke".
Issue 2 is the issue of "bait and switch", or consumer fraud. This issue doesn't directly relate on the "new Coke" example...it wasn't like the folks at Coca-Cola changed the formula and denied they did it...quite the opposite, they unveiled a new product openly.
The LEGAL issue might have been issue 2. That's the one SOE dodged by changing their refund policy.
Issue 1 is still there and will never go away. The difference in the Coke example is that the Coca-Cola company reacted to negative customer feedback, and gave them back what they wanted. Coca-Cola classic, and thus established an iconic (there's that word again) product labeling template. One that is applied to many other products...people talk about, for the obvious example, SWG classic, meaning preCU.
SOE provides the mirror image business school example of Coca-Cola's story. Coca-Cola shows what you should do in reaction to massive negative customer reaction to a product change. SOE provides the example of what not to do, and the consequences of doing so.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Bait and switch is a convenient term (that DOES apply, in the meaning of "ploy of offering a person something desirable to gain then thwarting expectations with something less desirable"). The clearest case for prosecution could be made under the term "FALSE ADVERTISING", however.
I've gotten the relevant articles from US and EU law. Explain how these do not apply to the ToOW / NGE controversy please, so we can all have a good laugh.
http://www.law.uconn.edu/homes/swilf/ip/statutes/lanham43.htm
I direct your attention to paragraph B:
§ 43 (15 U.S.C. §1125). False designations of origin; false description or representation
(a) (1) Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin, false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading representation of fact, which--
(B) in commercial advertising or promotion, misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person's goods, services, or commercial activities, shall be liable in a civil action by any person who believes that he or she is or is likely to be damaged by such act.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31984L0450:EN:HTML
specifically: Article 3
In determining whether advertising is misleading, account shall be taken of all its features, and in particular of any information it contains concerning:
(a) the characteristics of goods or services, such as their availability, nature, execution, composition, method and date of manufacture or provision, fitness for purpose, uses, quantity, specification, geographical or commercial origin or the results to be expected from their use, or the results and material features of tests or checks carried out on the goods or services;
Linna
When are some people (SOE & LA especially!) going to understand that the old SWG was a living virtual world that created it's own content.
Linear boring progression, bah! Linear force fed quest content, pfft. A real MMORPG player craves non of those things!
As for the imbalances. Yes the old game had a lot of imbalances, but mostly because some professions simple never were finished or just plain buggy. However, when most people talk about imbalance they tend to compare professions in 1 vs. 1 dueling. The combat in the old game had a lot more depth than simple duelling, just to bad that so few saw that /sigh.
I can appreciate that you feel that pre-NGE was a virtual world. I was there. I saw the populations and I do miss them.
However, one cannot blindly ignore the fact that both EQ2, WoW and other games released since SWG all indicate that a large percentage of the MMO population enjoys lore driven quest chains and deep worldwide stories that they feel they are a part of. To deny that such a desire exists is just plain naivety.
ALL mmo's in my opinion are another form of escapism. Even moreso than watching a good film. You feel like you are stripped away from your everyday life, and are enveloped in a world which you feel you are part of. Lore / storylines / quests, call them what you will help tremendously to do that. No one can despute that WoW's lore and quest storylines are some of the best in the business.
Sure, player driven entertainment has its own allure. But people love to be told good story's. This is one of the reasons why the first three Star Wars films were such a big hit in the first place.
The MMO market has changed from grindfest loving MMO's (e.g. EQ1, SWG and AO) to quest loving MMO's. Some MMO developers have realised that shift and tried to take steps to keep up for better or for worse. MMO players who create their own content can look after themselves, but those who love stories want them to be told.
Like I said originally, pre AND post NGE SWG versions have their own unique problems. Neither is perfect by a long shot. Theres no going back, only forward. The only thing SOE can do now is give the player as much choices of things to do in SWG as possible. Whether it is quest chains, player driven content, crafting or anything else. Choice can be the saviour of any MMO.
What was needed was both the sandbox, and the directed content. That would appeal to both groups.
The problem early on was that there was very little directed content, and a toolbox for creating content wasn't present.
So they managed to get the worst of both worlds. Eventually the problems with both have been addressed, but as usual, the damage had already been done.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
When are some people (SOE & LA especially!) going to understand that the old SWG was a living virtual world that created it's own content.
Linear boring progression, bah! Linear force fed quest content, pfft. A real MMORPG player craves non of those things!
As for the imbalances. Yes the old game had a lot of imbalances, but mostly because some professions simple never were finished or just plain buggy. However, when most people talk about imbalance they tend to compare professions in 1 vs. 1 dueling. The combat in the old game had a lot more depth than simple duelling, just to bad that so few saw that /sigh.
I can appreciate that you feel that pre-NGE was a virtual world. I was there. I saw the populations and I do miss them.
However, one cannot blindly ignore the fact that both EQ2, WoW and other games released since SWG all indicate that a large percentage of the MMO population enjoys lore driven quest chains and deep worldwide stories that they feel they are a part of. To deny that such a desire exists is just plain naivety.
ALL mmo's in my opinion are another form of escapism. Even moreso than watching a good film. You feel like you are stripped away from your everyday life, and are enveloped in a world which you feel you are part of. Lore / storylines / quests, call them what you will help tremendously to do that. No one can despute that WoW's lore and quest storylines are some of the best in the business.
Sure, player driven entertainment has its own allure. But people love to be told good story's. This is one of the reasons why the first three Star Wars films were such a big hit in the first place.
The MMO market has changed from grindfest loving MMO's (e.g. EQ1, SWG and AO) to quest loving MMO's. Some MMO developers have realised that shift and tried to take steps to keep up for better or for worse. MMO players who create their own content can look after themselves, but those who love stories want them to be told.
Like I said originally, pre AND post NGE SWG versions have their own unique problems. Neither is perfect by a long shot. Theres no going back, only forward. The only thing SOE can do now is give the player as much choices of things to do in SWG as possible. Whether it is quest chains, player driven content, crafting or anything else. Choice can be the saviour of any MMO.
What was needed was both the sandbox, and the directed content. That would appeal to both groups.
The problem early on was that there was very little directed content, and a toolbox for creating content wasn't present.
So they managed to get the worst of both worlds. Eventually the problems with both have been addressed, but as usual, the damage had already been done.
I think a mission system like in COH/COV would have worked. Not necessarily the instancing, but the smaller and larger story arcs. It could have been integrated with the mission terminals with relative ease. Mission difficulty could have been determined by the mission taker's skill with the weapon equipped, payment in proportion to skill level required, more intricate arcs as the skill level got higher. Stories to be planet-specific, so there would actually be a reason for story-o-holics to visit different planets. You could have crafter and entertainer story arcs, or arcs where there were different roads to success, or arcs that required a combination of skills for success. Better yet, you could have arcs where you could choose a rebel/imperial/neutral solution for a given problem, all giving equal XP, but the choice sliding you one way or the other.
I never DID understand why they didn't put Nyax on a mission terminal. No more camping on a timer, Nyax' headquarters spawning as a lair somewhere on Corellia, with a door that would only open for the mission taker...
Linna
The mission terminals did provide for rudimentary story elements, but the missions were just "go to lair, kill guardians, destroy lair, collect reward" in nature. There was no system for tying missions together in an arc, or for making them terribly interesting storywise. You could invent that yourself, of course, if you so desired.
A system that told stories was desperately needed aside from the little bit of "color" that the mission terminals provided. Once you'd read them through once or twice, you were done with them, and the stories were invariably more interesting than the missions themselves, thus you had a letdown bulit into them.
The quests that did exist were fairly mundane in nature, and the rewards were pathetic. 100 credits or so, tops. Some handed out unique items for decorating your home, those were great...like the NPC who had just been reassigned from Endor to the Imp base on the hill overlooking Bestine, who handed out the Endor painting. They needed more quests like that, but as it turned out, so many of those type of quests wound up being broken and were allowed to stay that way for very long tmes. Some, like the guy north of the Agrilat on Corellia who talked up a great talk about something having to do with Darth Vader never worked at all.
Making things like Nyax more dynamic would have been a vast improvement over the static Nyax compound and the camping that it created, but I strongly suspect that there were technical issues that could not be overcome for those sort of rich dynamic content choices. They had enough troubles keeping the ship afloat as it was.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Linna:
First of all, I have no idea why you'd link the Lanham Act (trademark law) to this discussion, but regardless.
Here's where your argument becomes flawed without the judgement of a court which you'll never see in this case.
Bait and Switch, by US and EU definitions means advertising a product for sale then delivering a product that "misrepresents the nature, characteristics, qualities, or geographic origin of his or her or another person's goods, services, or commercial activities". I'm assuming that you, and others, are claiming that because of the NGE the "natures, characteristics, or qualities" of delivery didn't match what was advertised.
Now, you could sit in a courtroom and attempt to explain that the NGE changed the game and how it was played, but in reality...they advertised a massively multiplayer role playing game set in the Star Wars universe...and delivered one. They advertised a subscription to play on the SWG servers, when they were available...and they delivered this. They advertised an expansion pack that would add certain things to the original game...and they delivered that.
They changed mechanics of the game, absolutely, but they didn't change any of the above things in their most basic form. They also had disclaimers from day one that "Gameplay could Change".
Now, could you possibly convince a judge or jury that because they changed the way you became a jedi in a video game, or changed what kind of imaginary character you could be, that they were then "cheating you"? Maybe, if you had a jury full of MMO gamers who knew what the hell you were talking about. The reality though, is that the majority of the population would simply say "um...yeah...you got a Star Wars Online Game...just like they promised".
Again though, since no attorney ever believed the case to have enough merit to see the inside of a courtroom anywhere on earth, we'll never know...all we do know, is that no legal complaint has ever been brought, let alone litigated and won, regarding the NGE or ToOW, and without that...they aren't "guilty" of anything outside of the mind of people on a forum.
you seem to still not get it.
WE are the judges and we judged $OE is guilty.
It is important to keep level of organisation here and keep going because we fined $OE to not have success with NGE no matter what.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
Actually, that's exactly what I get and what I've been saying all along.
And you judged with your wallet...two years ago...so let it go.
Actually, that's exactly what I get and what I've been saying all along.
And you judged with your wallet...two years ago...so let it go.
Two years later and we still have an impact. "Letting it go" will come when we have satisfactory compensation.
LOL...you are owed exactly zero compensation for anything. Personally, I don't even think people were owed refunds for ToOW...but they got that anyways.
oh...and no...you don't have an impact. It's two years later, the game isn't being rolled back, the game isn't putting up Pre-CU servers, and frankly...I'd guess that SOE considers it's former players as just that.
100% agree. I believe that the basis of making any good MMO - Choices.
Yes, there used to be a huge population because of pre-NGE. But also, yes the post-NGE gives a sense of direction in the gameplay and people enjoy the lore and quests that it now has.
The more choice a player is given in an MMO, the more it can cater for a larger and wide ranging audience.
MMO devs are slowly realising this (e.g. Vanguards diplomacy).
swg STILL has the foundation to be a great game, but it will take a lot of marketing, development and communication on what the devs have in mind for SWG's future in order to proceed.
But the fact remains....it CAN be done. But the devs have to take the first step.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Well, in a perfect world I'd totally agree. However, in the real world, the majority of MMO players want WoW. In the real world, the majority of MMO makers want WoW. Every time a game comes out that departs from WoW and does something new...it ends up taking on more and more characteristics of WoW. If a game designer could be content with 20-50k subs, set that as their goal, and be happy? They could make a true, original MMO. Unfortunately, no one wants to make that MMO.
Really the bottom line is you are not going to beat wow with a wow clone. You are NEVER going to beat wow no matter what you design. Stop trying and make a game for the rest of us that don't play wow.
LOL...you are owed exactly zero compensation for anything. Personally, I don't even think people were owed refunds for ToOW...but they got that anyways.
oh...and no...you don't have an impact. It's two years later, the game isn't being rolled back, the game isn't putting up Pre-CU servers, and frankly...I'd guess that SOE considers it's former players as just that.
Of course we have an impact. Why else would SOE have said "don't make our mistakes"?
The impact was felt and is continuing to be felt. Word of mouth is a very powerful tool, and word of SOE's questionable methods is the albatros around thier necks.
LOL...keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night. Meanwhile SOE will continue to turn a profit, continue to acquire assets, continue to release new games, and you'll continue to complain on a message board about something that happened in a video game 2 years ago.
I can see Pirates of the Burning Sea being a pretty successful game, btw...and I pretty much guarantee that Star Wars Galaxies isn't going to have an ounce of effect on it.
LOL...keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night. Meanwhile SOE will continue to turn a profit, continue to acquire assets, continue to release new games, and you'll continue to complain on a message board about something that happened in a video game 2 years ago.
I can see Pirates of the Burning Sea being a pretty successful game, btw...and I pretty much guarantee that Star Wars Galaxies isn't going to have an ounce of effect on it.
Tell me. why did SOE feel the need to do damage control? Why did Sigil try to ensure their followers in Vanguard beta that SOE was only publishing and not developing? Why did Smed and SOE, on seperate occasions, feel the need to address the public and say that mistakes were made?
Why do gaming web sites and mags contiually bring up post-NGE in interviews if it's a non-story?
It's obvious that SOE has been on damage control for 2 years. Why would someone need to be on damage control if there was no damage to control?
LOL...like I said Suv, whatever makes you sleep better at night. If that happens to be thinking that you're changing the world by posting about a change in a video game that happened to years ago...go for it.
So what you're saying is you have no answer for me?
The answer is, everyone does P.R.
The answer is that Sigil stated SOE was publishing and not developing...because that was the truth.
Smedley said that no listening to fans enough was a mistake...OOOOOO!...yes, it must be because he read Suvroc complaining on the mmorpg message board. Or, it could be because that's the kind of thing fans want to hear as you promote new games...
As far as a "non-story"? Not sure that it qualifies as that, it was certainly a "landmark" in MMO development. I do think it qualifies as something that it's really time to get over your emotional attachment to, however.
it was a video game...two years ago...that you liked to play...now it's not...that's it.
Too big words for someone who helped by big part to raise postcount in a thread with subject "hate the ..NGE" and get max views to top of the roof.
/thanks
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
and this would be exactly my point about this fantasy that you're making some big change or difference.
Dude, are you really under the impression that people at Sony give a rat's ass what the post count on an NGE hater thread on mmorpg.com is???
If so...you're dreaming.