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General: Spotlight: PvP in MMOs: What Gamers Want
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
This week in her MMORPG.com Community Forum Spotlight column, Community Manager Laura Genender discusses a user blog involving PvP and what kinds of experiences players are looking for.
High end content in MMOs is basically restricted to one of two paths: raids, which require players to work together against large events or creatures; or PvP, which allows players to generate their own high-end challenges against each other. For our community, at the very least, it is the latter which seems to be catching the most attention.
Perhaps that’s no big surprise; after all, two of the big upcoming giants – Age of Conan and Warhammer Online – are mostly centered around PvP. Current popular games such as World of Warcraft and Guild Wars offer plenty of PvP, too. But for user T0nyd, this isn’t enough.
In a blog entry titled “PVP MMORPGs, are they real?” T0nyd outlines the features he believes are key in any MMO PVP experience:
Read it all here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I've always enjoyed T0nyd's postings, and of course the features by Stradden. I remember reading the blog and thinking:
Warhammer is pretty much aiming to fill all of those PvP needs.
PvP only from level 1 to level 40 - check
Quests designed for PvP - check
Rewards from PvP - check
Gear from PvP - check
Territorial control in PvP - check
but also with a full PvE game included.
While I would love to see a fun PvP game, I am always wary of the lack of good PvE content. It is hard to get the proper mix of both play styles and keep most players happy. I would hope that WAR or Conan will bring a play style that can be a perfect blend of both.
There is nothing that I like more than sticking a caster with an arrow from a hill top or grouping through a good dungeon.
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*This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
If only more people knew about DAoC. DAoC allows a person to level up from 1-50 in PvP or PvE. I can't think of a better made game than DAoC. Only reason why I don't play it anymore is because of the low population numbers. Which is why I say "If only more people knew about DAoC."
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Planetside.
You want PvP 24 x 7? That's all it is. You lvl simply through PvP. I've played many of the MMOs out there and there were none that came close to providing the thrill of the incredible battles in PS. That being said, after all the work of taking over a tower, a base or a planet, going stealth, getting a MAX suit or just sitting back and sniping...it gets old. For this reason you need to have PvE content, to take a break from the same-old-same-old. You need to create value to each of your battles - taking over a base just didn't mean anything after a while in PS because the next day someone else would have it. It's not like there was any tangible benefit to having taken it over, other then whooping the other team - and don't get me wrong - that was a blast. But if that's all there is, it's probably not enough.
When discussing this topic I've always said if they can mix the excitement of PS with a WOW, EQ, etc. then you've got yourself a kick-ass game. Can AOC or War do it? I'm just as eager to find out as everyone else.
MMO's Played: 20 , Closed Beta: 9 , Open Beta: 3 , Currently:Warhammer Beta
Guild: Futilez
he was spot on about south shore in wow - i loved the pvp there before pvp even gave you any recognition or reward. i thought it was a great bit of the game that overlapped pvp with pve and there really should have been some pvp objectives there to complete (if you wanted). sadly, the implementation of pvp in wow killed the game for me.
as for daoc, when i used to play it you couldn't really do pvp until about level 20 or so, but had a lot of fun when i did get to do pvp. tthey did introduce pure pvp servers at one point, but i don't remember being able to level by doing pvp - it was a matter of doing pve and hoping you didn't get pasted and hope you got invited to one of the larger guilds for protection. eventually thugh i got bored before i managed to max out my character, mainly because i was playing on american servers from the uk.
so thanks to mythic, i am very much looking forward to warhammer online!
i never really understood why pvp wasn't a bigger part of all mmorpgs really - i mean fps games have always been pvp - so why not rpgs?
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First: DAOC
Current: WAR
Played: PotBS, WoW, DDO, LOTRO, SWG, 9D
Anticipating: Stargate Worlds, Warhammer 40k Online
I think the important thing is making PvP matter in the game world.
The concept of having certain quests open up when a town is taken is good - it gives a reason to fight.
Instanced PvP doesnt give this reason and is only good for casual gamer play.
While I think PvP is popular, it is still not as popular as plain ole PvE. While WoW PvP lost its flavor to me I tried to figure out why. My conclusion is that I don't like competing against humans... in RL as well as games. I love a great discussion with humans though because there are opinions that can't be wrong, therefore no winner or loser, just an exchange of ideas. Opinions in games can only be expressed in a textual form but not a game mechanic, unless you're talking about the expression involved with costuming like CoH/V.
Anarchy Online definitely had a super PvP system that involved a changing world as territories changed sides and Notum posession was the holy grail. But like DaoC it went the way of the dodo because by today's standards they are both graphically inept.
SWG had a great system of player killing that allowed leveling up while hunting players (bounty hunter) and would still be sweet if it wasn't for the "big change" it underwent to accomodate kids and their need for "make me a Jedi or I won't play" attitude.
spot on ... which reminds me of daoc (again) - the faction with the most keeps had access to darkness falls (a dungeon). i don't think it was the sole reason people did pvp but if a faction were close people did tend to pile in and help out and then run like to hell to darkness falls and wipe out the players from other factions who were still inside when access changed.
good times! damn, i'm almost tempted to go and re-roll a shammy...
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First: DAOC
Current: WAR
Played: PotBS, WoW, DDO, LOTRO, SWG, 9D
Anticipating: Stargate Worlds, Warhammer 40k Online
For thos of us that want their PvP and PvE sepperated ( And i am sure this is the majorrity of all MMO players...weather they realise it or not) ...DAoC was the holy grail. It gave you the feeling of world PvP with good clear objectives. without interfering with PvE
Also it made me realise that by havinf 3 parties or more in a PvP conflict....there is another extra twist, that makes it speciall.
I totally disagree with the FFA PvP ideas implanted in the brains of many people..... the same people that start whining after being ganked in FFA PvP 5 times in an hour.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I believe all MMORPG's fail at pvp combat.
They succeed in griefing and ganking.
PvP means to me a fight between players where the skill of the player (not the arbitrary power of a toon leveled to 50 or whatever) decides the outcome. WW2 Online, Planetside, etc, are examples of this kind of PvP. Everyone has a chance to win for the most part (rifleman vs tiger, not so much, but Tigers are super rare, and rifleman are not). Besting an opponent in this style of combat is a rewarding experience for me.
In MMORPG's however, aside from the somehat balanced small instances in some of them (BG's in WoW etc) typically devolve into one sided gank fests (DAOC, L2, Shadowbane, AO, etc). Without balance, you have grief. Superior numbers and levels wins the day. Every... single.... time........ That would bore the hell out of me, but apparently there are sufficient numbers of sociopaths in the world that it makes game developers think of them first (PotBS, Warhammer, AoC) when designing new games. I find no joy in ganking someone 5 or 6 on 1. That's not fun for me, and I shudder to think of what kind of person it is who does find it enjoyable (Did they boil puppies alive when they were younger? Put firecrackers into frogs?)
And on the opposite side, the person who gets ganked 5-6 on 1 will find it unenjoyable as well. They'll probably cancel the account if it gets bad enough (Shadowbane anyone?) This kind of PvP where levels and items and time played (and numbers) matter far more than skill is self defeating for the developer. Sure, you don't have to provide end game content as these people are more than willing to sit at a spawn point for hours on end waiting for a helpless victim to come along.... but sooner or later, the game runs out of helpless victims and it goes under.
As for why most games aren't Open PvP, I wonder why... its these same sociopaths who'd ruin it for everyone but themselves. Its why we have laws in our societies. We shouldn't NEED them, but there are people, just as in these games, who'd go out of their way to mess with everyone (or worse) if they weren't in place. And sometimes even the laws don't stop them and they have to be jailed or put down (see the colorado religious school shootings just yesterday). Wouldn't suprise me if the idiot who went on the shooting spree was a griefer in some MMORPG.
Nice read but whoever said that AOC was pvp centered or is that just the hype or even wishful thinking for that matter. Yes, AOC will have pvp but a large portion of the game will be centered around character progression and raids as well.
Warhammer goes a different path which is purely pvp centered. If I am going to play Warhamemr it is strictly going to be for pvp purposes. Being able to pvp through the entire game is a huge plus for pvpers.
<p>Originally posted by eric_w66</p><p>I find no joy in ganking someone 5 or 6 on 1. That's not fun for me, and I shudder to think of what kind of person it is who does find it enjoyable (Did they boil puppies alive when they were younger? Put firecrackers into frogs?)
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</p><p></p><p></p><p><br>When I played MUD's back in the early 90's they were seperated into PK or non-PK muds. (player killing, not the care-bear term PvP we have nowadays).</p><p><br>People who played and enjoyed PK muds were generally the mentally disturbed or had difficulty in normal social situations. I asked one guy his reasons for playing PK muds. I remember to this day what he said... "there's no greater joy than watching someone work every day to accumulate their equipment and levels, and then taking it all away from them by killing them, and then laughing"</p><p>I just can't be that cold-blooded. And even though much of the face of PKing has changed to be more care-bear (no looting, no xp loss, no eq deterioration), I still do not have a taste for defeating another player.</p>
Dammit I hate this editor, lol
I don't raid - its boring. I don't PVP - its frustrating since the same guy you popped 15 minutes ago will be back and in your face again with no real penalty for death. Don't get me wrong. I've played PVP - Planetside was a little bit of a thrill ride even though i sucked most heinously 90% of the time - the problem is many fold - preventing 'exploits' can also prevent strategy from being effective and it can come down to who has the best gear which can be ebayed by the impatient or camped for levels and gear by the jobless who actually have time to spend 80 hours a week *just* playing the game.
All i want to do is hang out, kill a few things with my buddies, maybe have a tavern to play cards in or dice or something while we socialize and wait for the rest of the party to show up, do some crafting that isn't as tedious as taking up the profession in real life, nor so easy that its a push the button get 200 bandages or whatever, do some funny stuff, and be able to smack mouthy 'tards up side the head.
PVP *sounds* great, and in theory, i'd be all over it. except it isn't great. Its full of griefers who camp people 20 levels lower than they are because somehow it makes them feel good to kill things that are no challenge and prove their manhood. Corpse camping, zoneline camping, and note above - exploit prevention actually favors the griefers because there is no acutal executable strategy available in most games to sneak past em/outsmart em etc etc.
The effort of learning to survive long enough in a pvp world to enjoy it isn't cost effective in time - i only have so much time to devote to the game per day and trust me, i have more than a lot of people.
I'd like to see a more realistic game world run by players, where animals behaved like animals and deer didnt' turn to attack when you shot them with a bow, bunnies didn't chew your peasant legs off, and a fox could not kill a level one ranger in 2 hits. Where if some player character named KILLYOUALLNOOBS! was being a pain, people could band together and kill him - permanantly.
I just don't think its ever going to happen. Too many people are more interested in exploiting the games than playing within the concept and rules to make that sort of environment work.
That sounds all good but when you really get down to it, Players will always fall back into the pve leveling routine because they know they can level faster that way. I'd level the pvp way because I'm not a player that does the rat race leveling but instead I take my time and enjoy the game in a different way.... So basically for all those people that want to level up pvp'ing then stick with it and don't switch when someone passes you in level.
Actually SWG had an ability that allowed the town militia to make people in their town attackable if they didn't leave within a certain period of time. Unfortunately do to an unfortunate incident involving kicking out a csr from a town and then ganking him, the ability was revoked. Not sure if that was the sole reason the ability was removed, but I remember it made quite a stink at the time. Made for a good screenshot too
>>>Unfortunately do to an unfortunate incident involving kicking out a csr from a town and then ganking him, the ability was revoked. <<<
Omg tragically funny.
Sadly though, that's what happens to *all* strategy in the games - someone figures out how to exploit it and the ability is removed, leaving us with the same homogenized pap that all games start to deteriorate into as time passes and rather than find and aggressively ban people who exploit, they remove the exploitable content.
I understand - its business, and they just can't get rid of everyone who does it without catching some people who are not doing so and they can't just ban everyone or the games would be kinda empty. But trust me. I've complained about some really nasty behavior in game, and i've worked as a helper in a game and found that we're not actually able, in most open-to-the-public games, to do much about it until certain legal lines are crossed.
Leveling to 50 via pvp or pve or both is great till u actully hit max level then what?
Spend countless hours trying to get a group to kill a mob u cant get to because a guild of 100 players is camping the spot ready to gank you when u enter the zone, (daoc pvp server toa entrance spot anyone?)
And since u cant get the gear to compete u think of buying in game money for real money to to find out u need a grand real money to have enough in game money to buy the top tier stuff to compete with due to inflated prices.
So in short i dont mind pvp at all its fun at times but more frustration then fun most of the time.
Pvp rewards the person who plays 80 hours a week. The more ya gank the more your rewarded via Rp's or skill points or what ever the sytem the games chooses to use.
Pvp game with out pvp kill reward system is what im waiting for like when Daoc first came out u got rps but they didnt mean squat, u killed other player for the thrill and sport of killing them. Taking the relics then going back home with it.
18 months later Toa and pvp reward system = 300k casual player base went by,by.
6 years later your left with the Hardcore players all whining there is no one left to kill or i killed a noob 13 times in 25 minutes man it was funny, ROFL!!!!!
PvP rewards=Casual Player Fodder..
"Actually SWG had an ability that allowed the town militia to make people in their town attackable if they didn't leave within a certain period of time. Unfortunately do to an unfortunate incident involving kicking out a csr from a town and then ganking him, the ability was revoked. Not sure if that was the sole reason the ability was removed, but I remember it made quite a stink at the time. Made for a good screenshot too "
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I totally remember that. Classic flashback points for you.
Real PvP was in Neocron till they ruined it
What we need is less fantasy mmos getting tired of sword swinging and elf RPer pervs.
For real PvP we need to have Rockstar make a Grand Theft Auto MMO with Gangs, Thugs, Cops, Swat and military all playable with player owned safe houses.
Now thats a game ill play for a long time!
So come on Rockstar make GTA Online!
I think this blog would have been more accurately titled "What SOME Gamers Want". THIS gamer certainly does NOT want PvP in her MMOs. There are all kinds of players out there with all kinds of likes and dislikes; thankfully, there are games to fit most tastes.
That is why I like Guild Wars--it keeps the PvP separate from the PvE. Players can kill each other to their hearts' content, but they don't bother those of us who do not relish getting ganked and griefed.
I couldn't quite understand the assertion that high end content is restricted to raids and PvP--Guild Wars Eye of the North fairly reeks of high end content that majors on PvE. I am sure other games can be cited that exercise similar creativity, although Guild Wars is a real gem.
I realize that I am doing exactly what I tweaked the blogger for doing--touting his own likes. But I am not claiming that all gamers want the same thing I do--it is just my gaming preference.
I prefer PvE. PvP is purely a fantasy, a 'wouldn't it be nice' sort of thing where the 'bad guys' would play to lose or to defend their own turf rather htan gank people.
I am not a competitive gamer - what i want is to go in and fight with, not against, other players to take down opponents. I actually don't *care* if its pvp or pve as long as i am having fun with a group of friends. Until roleplaying games came along, i did not play games. like... at all. having to compete with any friend - poker, chess, atari shoot em ups - whatever - they really lacked appeal.
WITH. not AGAINST!
Always.
I agree with the some of the previous posters about DAoC. The pvp (RvR as they called it) felt more meaningful than other game's attempts. Instanced pvp is fun but has no impact on the game as a whole. Why, steal an enemy realm's relic and you just gave everyone in your realm a buff where ever they are. Their battlegrounds were non-instanced, only 5 levels (1-4, 5-9, etc) and had a keep that could be seiged and seized.
The problem with pvp is that it takes only 1 person to ruin things for a lot of people. Think about real life cops. If just ONE cop is found to be corrupt, it will jade the public into thinking most of the cops are corrupt.. even if they aren't. Same thing in pvp, if one player goes around ganking people.. those people will think that everyone who pvp's ganks.
Unfortunately there are cruel, petty and immature people in the world and many of them play MMO's. The anonymity of the internet only encourages these types of people to ruin people's gameplay. Heck I even knew a guy who said that his main reason of playing WAS to ruin other people's gameplay. My enjoyment from pvp comes from defeating an opponent that was challenging and had a realistic chance of defeating me. One shotting a player 60 levels below me, who I could of went afk and had lunch and still be alive, is not my idea of fun or "1337 gaming skilz".
IMHO Alianse Battles in GW:Factions is way to go. Your opposite is same level as you and battle result depends of fight skills and tactic (except if there is afkers or leavers). Also this is fight for territory and towns. But this is only basic for good pvp and need to be improved.
Massive Multiplayer Online Industry
I like the Lineage 2 PvP system, i will point out the things i like in PvP.
The PvP system should have features like:
1. Why should you want to kill a player ?:
- take his (or his guild's) castle or zone control, wars between guilds,
- kill him for PvP Rank (will increase damage with any weapon, become more strong),
- take his items (if or when he drops them),
- penalty system (become hated and hunted).
2. When you get killed:
- decrease your experience (delevel),
- if you are hunted, drop items off your char or from your inventory.