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Poll: could a good sandbox game keep your longterm subscription?
hubertgrove
Member Posts: 1,141
I'm seeing a lot of game developers standing up at conferences and talking into reporter's cassette recorders saying that the safer bet in MMOs is for linear, quest-based games that are much simpler than traditional sandbox or sandbox-close games like Ultima or pre-NGE SWG.
So, here's my question, if graphics, speed, GUI and general playability were all equal, would you prefer to play:
A highly-structured, content-rich but linear game like WoW or LoTRO
...Or an open-ended, sandbox-type game like pre-NGE SWG or Ultima Online?
Comments
I have not played a quest based MMO for more then a few weeks. SThe sandbox MMOs i have tryed, i have played for many years.
So i would only play sanbox MMOs in the future : )
look at EvE people have been playing for 2 some odd years and with multiable accounts.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I didn't vote, because I would like to see a game that has both Sandbox and a quest line both in balance! That way if you want you can do either, so if you get tired of doing one you can got to the other! IMHO that style of game would draw a lot of players hard core and casual alike.
From a developer point of view, I think linear is much easier to create. You set the rules and people follow them. Games like pre-NGE SWG were amazing but they had their flaws. The devs gave us so much liberty in crafting that eventually we started to make weapons and armor completely out of balance. Then again, you sit down and start playing WOW and clearly see that alot of people loves and prefer linear.
The market seems to favor linear and that's where the money goes.
The music industry is the same... most people prefer the easy listening music such as pop.
As for me, I prefer sandbox type of games but I don't mind linear. However, for an MMO, the best adventure I had was in SWG, Mankind Online and now EVE.
I like my games challenging and only another human being can offer a real challenge. Sandbox games offer the degree of interaction that I enjoy, whereas themepark games like WoW are downright insulting to ones intelligence.
Unfortunately, as a casual gamer, nothing can keep my longterm subscription unless, like LOTRO, it has a "lifetime" option [I guess Guild Wars would also fit this since you only pay for it once].
Personally, I find LOTRO to have a good balance between sandbox and questing. My wife & I do some of the story quests [Book Chapters], then when we get spanked twice in a row, we move on to the "normal" quests in an area. When we're not in the mood for questing, I craft and she just runs around killing things or sometimes we just explore together. I think the people who claim that LOTRO is too linear are too busy trying to "finish" the game - their thinking is too linear, not the game itself.
Ryzom was a great sandbox game. Unfortunately, it didn't have enough quests/events to keep enough people interested to remain open
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Sandbox...no question. The linear, quest driven thing doesn't stay interesting for that long. They build off of a static, lifeless game world, so once you've burned through the generic content you've pretty much beat the game. Even when they have plenty of "content" it's still not all that interesting. "Sweet! Another quest to kill 10 wolves, this game kicks ass! I hope killing these 10 wolves will be exactly as boring and pointless as those last 10..."
I see the non-sandbox approach as college/amateur and the sandbox approach like the pro's. It's just more demanding on every level, but once it gets in your blood it's the only way to go.
It's seems like most of the non-sandbox games are an extension of single player games and then sandbox games a further evolution.
Why can't you give us a linear, story rich quest line, even w/ heavy instancing AND open sandbox elements to play around with?
My perfect MMO blog had some great ideas on this...
I voted for open-ended sandbox games. Having more freedom is much more appealing than rollercoasting through a linear game's designated leveling areas or choosing one of their limited class options.
I'd have to say I vote for a hybrid system that has the best part of both systems, they are not mutually exclusive concepts.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I want a little bit of both.
I want a skill-based progression system, not a generic class/level-based system.
I want to be able to choose between combat emphasis, or social emphasis - Do I deal with enemies by beating them to death with sticks and rocks, or do I talk them down somehow?
However, I also want experience to mostly be rewarded via the completion of quests/tasks - these need not be linear, following a certain progression. You find someone who needs something done, and you do it - who knows, you might end up changing the face of the game world because you just happened across the right person and handled a situation in just the right way.
These tasks shouldn't be hard to come by, though. Most everyone should have something they need done and don't want to do by themselves - whether player or NPC.
Hmm..
Would I prefer visiting Disneyland over living in Ducktown?
Real easy choice that.. Ducktown FTW!
FREEEEEEEDOM!
Sandboxed ofcourse
If swg precu was available I'd still be playing. I did take some time off precu SWG to try quest driven games and they were ok. But it does get boring and I find myself soloing a lot more in quest type games than in the sandbox games.
Sometimes it seems like quests separate people. You could be the same level as someone, but they are on a different quest, and it's a quest chain. In the sandbox game it seemed like we used to hang out more together, and the sense of community was infinitely greater.
So I'd have to say sandbox. Although having some quests is great too.
I think the djurability of Eve Online, and to a lesser extent Ryzom do show that a sandbox MMORPG can be both succesful and long lasting. So definitly yes, it can be done
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Despite all its flaws, Shadowbane was hands down the most fun I've ever had in an MMO. I have high expectations for Darkfall Online. AoC will have a balance of sandbox and linear elements, so that should be interesting. If the game doesn't hold PvP in an equal or higher standard than PvE, then it'd get old quick for me. I don't pay monthly fees to kill stuff I could kill offline in a single player game.
Shadow of Apophis - Council Member
Sand-box. I played UO for 3.5 years and SWG between launch and the NGE. That's fairly long term in my mind. The flexibility and freedom that sand-box style games give is just much more satisfying to me.
Let's start with a skill-based advancement model. No more levels. No more classes. I want to be able to mix and match the skills I want and then re-do them next week in a completely different manner if I wish. I want a deep crafting system and player crafted items to dominate the world. I want custom housing and boats. I want to be able to run a physical merchant shop (not use some kind of global vendor system).
Next, I think player created content is a must. The game design must allow for players to provide a large array of content... everything from PvP combat such as tournaments, to PvE treasure hunts, to live auctions, to town hall meetings, and everything inbetween. Player created content makes the community strong which is at the heart of any good MMORPG.
Now for quests - I expect the Devs would supplement the player created content with some interesting story lines, limited quests, etc. Quests should be dynamic (and not of the go kill XX creatures variety!!!) and not merely steer a player through increasingly harder content. Next, all players shouldn't be able to complete the exact same quests for the exact same rewards. How many players have you seen with the exact same gear from the exact same quest that you just completed yesterday? Boring!!! Quests shouldn't be used as the basis for gaining XP or leveling (remember - levels suck anyways!). Quest outcomes SHOULD impact the game world. For instance, if I just rescued a mage from his evil captors, then great! But there is the chance that the mage's captor (say a fiend or balron or something) gets pissed off, wants revenge, and decides to lay waste to my home town. The players then have to rally a defense to protect the town and end the carnage. Finally, maybe quests should be used to provide crafting reciples, rare resources, new skills (a random spell for instance), some spell reagent that gives a bonus to one of my character's spells, or perhaps just a good luck charm or medal that my character can wear proudly.
Basically, I want flexibility and freedom to develop my character the way I want and shape the game around me. I want the game world to be impacted by player actions. I do not want to spend my 2-3 in-game hours every night for the sole purpose of getting to the next level (just to get predetermiend skills, spells, or stat increases) or looting that ultra rare gear from a mob kill.
Make this game and I will pay to play it. Year after year after year...
Playing WoT now.
Favorite All-Time Games: Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Lord of the Rings Online
I enjoy MMOs based on storylines. To me, they're like reading interactive books. I enjoy reading, but you never get the chance to do anything as a reader but turn the page; in MMOs, you get to actually interact with characters and, in the more interesting MMOs, alter the outcomes. I respect the freedom you get in sandbox games (they're more about writing the story than reading it), but they largely depend upon other players; relying on other players for entertainment is risky at best, and disastrous at worst. Heaven forbid the game ends up with a small playerbase. When there aren't enough players around to interact with, sandbox games are little more than litterboxes.
I think the poster who voiced a desire to see a combination of both styles was right on the money. Adding a little optional direction to a sandbox environment could only be a good thing. Sandbox games are all about freedom of choice, and I have a hard time seeing how some additional (and optional) direction in the game would do anything but increase the number of choices players have available to them.
If current MMOs are where the bar is set, I'd take sandbox in a heartbeat. SWG was good fun before it was butchered, UO was good fun before it became no fun, and its high time another came to fill in the void and put Raids and all this other jibberish I'm not ready to give my life up for yet in their place.
Edit: Sandbox with direction lives to an extent in SWG with the Legacy quest. Horizons was probably another example of this. There were plenty of quests and you could advance down multiple paths and had a story driven world with the Withering whatever it was attacking your settlements. Then it imploded.
Unfortunately, as a casual gamer, nothing can keep my longterm subscription unless, like LOTRO, it has a "lifetime" option [I guess Guild Wars would also fit this since you only pay for it once].
Personally, I find LOTRO to have a good balance between sandbox and questing. My wife & I do some of the story quests [Book Chapters], then when we get spanked twice in a row, we move on to the "normal" quests in an area. When we're not in the mood for questing, I craft and she just runs around killing things or sometimes we just explore together. I think the people who claim that LOTRO is too linear are too busy trying to "finish" the game - their thinking is too linear, not the game itself.
Ryzom was a great sandbox game. Unfortunately, it didn't have enough quests/events to keep enough people interested to remain open
I couldn't agree with you more about Ryzom! It also need to be advertised a lot more as well! I got lucky and heard about it from a guy on the SWG boards when he was leaving for Ryzom and tried it out, and got hooked on it for over a year! It was an amazing game!
No offense but more and more I read your post sounds like single player rpgs would fit you better than MMORPGs. I think some customers are a bit confused in what they want lately. Alot of MMORPG customers are really single player game people and there are alot of nice single player games out there like Oblivion that would give them the experience they are looking for.
You are waisting a subscription fee online for what you want to do in a game.
No offense but more and more I read your post sounds like single player rpgs would fit you better than MMORPGs. I think some customers are a bit confused in what they want lately. Alot of MMORPG customers are really single player game people and there are alot of nice single player games out there like Oblivion that would give them the experience they are looking for.
You are waisting a subscription fee online for what you want to do in a game.
I gotta disagree with you, quombi. I can only speak for myself, but I enjoy some MMO's playing solo better than most single-player RPG's because:
1. the game doesn't end. I can keep playing, even after I've "beaten" the game. I loved Fallout but hated that it ended, as an example. I wanted to keep playing with that character...
2. new content is released, usually for free and on a fairly regular schedule.
3. If I choose, and it is MY choice, not a requirement forced upon me, I CAN group with other people to play the game.
4. When I craft, I have other people to sell my wares to, or to buy from.
NWN was great for these, but every game gets stale after a while and I ran out of good modules to play. NWN2 has turned out to be a bust in terms of builders - atleast, so far.
As mentioned before, MMORPGs that have BOTH a sandbox and a questing system seem to be a good fit for me. [And most others who have posted
]
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While I have played better built non-sandbox mmo's, I find myself wanting more to do after a few months. By 'more to do', I mean something besides combat, which generally makes up most of all videogames and MMOs. But a true sandbox game like the original SWG had so much to offer. Even though I got tired of SWG's bugs and issues and cancelled (then resubbed) several times, I always had something to do when I got bored with combat. Instead of cancelling and looking for a new game, I could decorate a house, or go shopping, or turn to crafting, or space flight, or politics (SWG really did have politics, it was great), or go outside a starport and start trading and building yourself a small fortune.
Themepark MMOs might be easier to develop and maintain, but sandbox MMOs are better for me to develop my characters and they maintain my subscription much longer.
i play whatever now, since there aren't any companies that know what they want. i play both and put up with then although i rarely have any fun at it, think of it as having another job in your spare time..
Why can't you give us a linear, story rich quest line, even w/ heavy instancing AND open sandbox elements to play around with?
My perfect MMO blog had some great ideas on this...
I agree with herrobya. I want both.
Could I enjoy a purely sandbox game? I don't really know. I normally don't enjoy "niche" or one dimensional games (which includes most current sandbox games). I get bored of them. If a sandbox game is made that fully embraces many different playstyles (pretty equally), I think I probably could If a sandbox games only caters to one playstyle, I probably won't.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."