If you want to play a stealth class, why not go the realistic route: hide behind a tree and peek around. Scouting in games typically resorts to "invisibility", i.e., the "stealthed" character cannot be seen at all. This isn't being stealthy, it is being remove from possible view. I would love it if WAR allowed you to wear "camoflauge" or hide under leaves, or something along those lines, in order to hide/scout. Anything beyond that just isn't necessary as it is typically overpowered/abused. Besides, they could create some sort of spell/familiar that is able to scout if desired....
Talin has the right idea. The thing that has to go is that goofy name over the avatar's head. Take that away, and if you are still behind a bush, then visibility becomes a real part of strategy... ambushing becomes a realistic and viable fighting technique. And I still think there is a way to have a type of "get-away-invis" as well ....like ninjas, throw down some flash powder and the opponent is blinded for a second or two, giving you time to 'get away'.
There's a lot of techniques that are 'stealthy', that if implemented correctly, would make for more complex fighting... and they don't have to be tied to a single class either. The whole 'invis' and 'chance-to-see' mechanic seems very dorky and artificial the more you think about it..
If you want to play a stealth class, why not go the realistic route: hide behind a tree and peek around. Scouting in games typically resorts to "invisibility", i.e., the "stealthed" character cannot be seen at all. This isn't being stealthy, it is being remove from possible view. I would love it if WAR allowed you to wear "camoflauge" or hide under leaves, or something along those lines, in order to hide/scout. Anything beyond that just isn't necessary as it is typically overpowered/abused. Besides, they could create some sort of spell/familiar that is able to scout if desired....
Talin has the right idea. The thing that has to go is that goofy name over the avatar's head. Take that away, and if you are still behind a bush, then visibility becomes a real part of strategy... ambushing becomes a realistic and viable fighting technique. And I still think there is a way to have a type of "get-away-invis" as well ....like ninjas, throw down some flash powder and the opponent is blinded for a second or two, giving you time to 'get away'.
There's a lot of techniques that are 'stealthy', that if implemented correctly, would make for more complex fighting... and they don't have to be tied to a single class either. The whole 'invis' and 'chance-to-see' mechanic seems very dorky and artificial the more you think about it..
This is what I would never like to see unless you give everyone a ranged lock spell of some type.. There would have to be some kind of concequences (SP) for wanting to gank someone. Because if this is how stealth would be implemented thats all you would get.. No scouting just straight up ganking. Too many people that like stealth type players are in it just to see who they can take, and if they start getting their ass handed to them they just want to run. Think if all classes could do this what FUN could that be.
If someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and whack them in the head.
I agree with you. However, if you're considering flaming me, don't. Try to argue like anyone and not just flame around randomly and call me a troll while you yourself is a forty times bigger one.
To the topic: I'm with you. Stealth adds another level to the gameplay. It adds a feeling of unease as you never know where the enemies are. You will always be prepared and ready if there is stealth in the game.
Stealth doesn't have to be overpowered. Stealth is just another skill, it can be overpowered, underpowered or balanced.
Implementing something as simple as being able to climb up in a tree would be what I would consider balanced stealth. By changing stealth to the ability to use the environment to hide you make pretty much every class able to use "stealth". This also makes it more logical as well as makes everyone uneasy.
Finally. I've mentioned a few of my points in why I believe stealth should be in the game. I've got over the fact that stealth won't be in the game and I don't really mind at all. I'm not going to play WoW and I'm definitely not a troll just because I don't agree with the rest.
I say Stealth for everyone that way we can all run around not knowing where anyone is = No one ever gets ganked and no one ever dies we can all be hero's and not ever have seen anyone but don't worry it will still be a persistent world even though you can' t see the 500 people standing around you.
Fun Fun Fun huh.
I could see stelth as being a skill that eliminates your name tag or something for a duration of time allowing for hiding behind trees and so forth without your name tag sticking out like a soar thumb. and even the hiding under a pile of leaves thing someone else mentioned before would be ok. But IMO the only class in any game that should have complete invisibility should be a mage seeing as going invisible in any time period would have been considered magic or witchcraft.
And no I wouldn't say OP mages personally if your invis you should not be able to interact with the physical world.( Like a phase shift into another Dimension or something)
But whatever I'm not building the game I'll just be playing it.
I will say this out of all my toons in WoW and yes I'm playing till one of the others comes out my lowest toon is my rogue at lvl 37.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
I believe it's about time we see a MMO with "next generation" stealth.
How? True stealth.
Let me explain.
Make a stealth system where your character's skill/level of stealthiness determines the distance at which the game client renders that player to others. Make this affected by the day/night cycle (distance is much shorter at night and much longer during the day)
Make it so moving increases the range in which you can be detected, the faster you are moving the more likely to be detected.
Make it so if you are in the frontal 180 degree arc of another player/mob the rendering distance goes up.
Unless of course if the stealther has already been targetting/spotted, you have no magical vanishing back into thin air.
Make a "Vanish" ability work realistically. You throw a small bit of flash powder at the ground, blinding your opponents to your presence for a few seconds. I.E. 2-3 seconds where no one can see you, after that time is up, you reappear...
True camouflage.
Give stealth characters the ability to "gather" material from their environment to construct a camo suit (much like real life snipers do, but I can't remember what they call it) Make this camo suit effect the distance at which the game client renders them to others. Make moving effect this as well.
This way, a stealthy player can hide and lie in waiting easily, and would also be very useful for scouting.. but sneaking up and ambushing another player/NPC would be difficult to do and require a great deal of skill and luck on the part of the player.
No magic stealth. Realistic stealth.
In a MMO, there is no way you could do stealth like Splinter Cell or Riddick... you simply can't have that level of lighting technology in a MMO at this point. But you CAN control the distance at which the game client renders near by objects into a player view.
Use this as a means to create a realistic stealth system.
My wife is very happy to see that Stealth isn't in this game. As she and I both agree, if it's stealth you want, WoW's for you. I'm just glad they made DAoC like they did, and learned what a mistake stealth in an MMO with a focus on PVP/RVR can be.
Agreed.
I have indeed played rogue/stealth/invisible characters in several MMOs, and I have to say that DAoC opened my eyes to what a bad idea stealth/invisibility in a PvP-RvR oriented game can be.
Simply put, you should be ABLE to SEE your enemies.
Mythic is well aware that many players enjoy rogues and stealth -- and that many players detest all those invisible players.
They made a decision: no stealth.
Okay, fine. I can accept that.
~~~
Note: the only kind of stealth that I could ever find acceptable in WAR would be what some call "Camouflage." Which is to say, if you are completely motionless, you will be hard to see. If you twitch a finger, you become visible. The only valid purpose for this skill would be "scouting" and sometimes "sniping."
However, if Mythic never puts this into the game, it won't bother me.
A very well written post, thank you OP. I believe it's about time we see a MMO with "next generation" stealth. How? True stealth. Let me explain. Make a stealth system where your character's skill/level of stealthiness determines the distance at which the game client renders that player to others. Make this affected by the day/night cycle (distance is much shorter at night and much longer during the day) Make it so moving increases the range in which you can be detected, the faster you are moving the more likely to be detected. Make it so if you are in the frontal 180 degree arc of another player/mob the rendering distance goes up. Unless of course if the stealther has already been targetting/spotted, you have no magical vanishing back into thin air. Make a "Vanish" ability work realistically. You throw a small bit of flash powder at the ground, blinding your opponents to your presence for a few seconds. I.E. 2-3 seconds where no one can see you, after that time is up, you reappear... True camouflage. Give stealth characters the ability to "gather" material from their environment to construct a camo suit (much like real life snipers do, but I can't remember what they call it) Make this camo suit effect the distance at which the game client renders them to others. Make moving effect this as well. This way, a stealthy player can hide and lie in waiting easily, and would also be very useful for scouting.. but sneaking up and ambushing another player/NPC would be difficult to do and require a great deal of skill and luck on the part of the player. No magic stealth. Realistic stealth. In a MMO, there is no way you could do stealth like Splinter Cell or Riddick... you simply can't have that level of lighting technology in a MMO at this point. But you CAN control the distance at which the game client renders near by objects into a player view. Use this as a means to create a realistic stealth system.
I agree on most of your points here, as they are very similar to my post earlier in this thread.
At the end of the day, I don't mind people being able to hide while standing still. make a player translucent, the degree of which is based on their skill and "possible cover" as decided by the environment around them. This would be comparable to using some soft of camofloge. The justification for this would be that the person took some time (i.e., this is NOT instantaneous and requires several seconds, maybe even 30), to slowly "fade out" of view.
The concept of even being "hidden" while moving is just silly. Rendering engines have to be developed that incoprate depth and density of objects better before this can be simulated in a game.
I'm all for a more realistic sense of stealth, as long as it keeps the game fun for everyone involved.
Hahah yeah right. No stealther ever "scouts". They're all living their pathetic lone wolf uber l337 wetdream. Stealthers don't group and they certainly don't give other people info so that they can come and take "their" kills.
Becoming invisible is something a wizard could do and thats about as far as I am willing to tolerate it. If you want to be sneaky then you should have to sneak. Hide behind a tree or some bushes. If you are walking around right in front of me then I should be able to see you period.
The decision to get rid of stealth is a good one and i applaud WAR devs for making it.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Hahah yeah right. No stealther ever "scouts". They're all living their pathetic lone wolf uber l337 wetdream. Stealthers don't group and they certainly don't give other people info so that they can come and take "their" kills.
Its like pulling teeth to get semi-intelligent answers/responses out of alot of people. Thanks to all of you who actually posted with responses you didnt write first in crayon.
_____________________________ *This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
A very well written post, thank you OP. I believe it's about time we see a MMO with "next generation" stealth. How? True stealth. Let me explain. Make a stealth system where your character's skill/level of stealthiness determines the distance at which the game client renders that player to others. Make this affected by the day/night cycle (distance is much shorter at night and much longer during the day) Make it so moving increases the range in which you can be detected, the faster you are moving the more likely to be detected. Make it so if you are in the frontal 180 degree arc of another player/mob the rendering distance goes up. Unless of course if the stealther has already been targetting/spotted, you have no magical vanishing back into thin air. Make a "Vanish" ability work realistically. You throw a small bit of flash powder at the ground, blinding your opponents to your presence for a few seconds. I.E. 2-3 seconds where no one can see you, after that time is up, you reappear... True camouflage. Give stealth characters the ability to "gather" material from their environment to construct a camo suit (much like real life snipers do, but I can't remember what they call it) Make this camo suit effect the distance at which the game client renders them to others. Make moving effect this as well. This way, a stealthy player can hide and lie in waiting easily, and would also be very useful for scouting.. but sneaking up and ambushing another player/NPC would be difficult to do and require a great deal of skill and luck on the part of the player. No magic stealth. Realistic stealth. In a MMO, there is no way you could do stealth like Splinter Cell or Riddick... you simply can't have that level of lighting technology in a MMO at this point. But you CAN control the distance at which the game client renders near by objects into a player view. Use this as a means to create a realistic stealth system.
I have to disagree. If you are not rendering the avatar, you have already strayed into "magical" stealth territory, no matter how next-gen you think your ideas are.
If you want realistic hiding, hide behind a tree or in a shadow. If you want realistic camouflage, wear green/gray/brown armor. If you want flash powder, fine, fill my client with blinding smoke and sparks.
(And for the record, I think you are underestimating what can be done with lighting in an MMO.)
But there is absolutely nothing realistic about not rendering the avatar. You can't choose not to render yourself in real life, can you?
I need to make something a bit more clear, i suppose. As I have heard quite a few posters here mention "dissappearing into thin air", perhaps I have not gotten my point across well enough.
Let me explain. Slowly, for some of you.
I dont want stealth in this game. I will miss having the rogue class in it(as it has been a staple of the high fantasy genre for my entire life), but I am not trying to push it down the devs necks. I mearly had a rant. Some of you replied well. Some... well... not so much.
Let me get back on track..
I enjoy a skill based stealth system. Sticking to shadows, soft ground, and out of direct line of view are essential to said system. Giving others a chance to see through my sneaky talent is also essential.
I dont want to poof into thin air. I dont want to get my "uber l337 kills" or whatever that clown said a few posts before. I want to have the chance to sneak around you in the middle of the woods and, unless you have the proper skill set to stop me, kill your a$$. It seems balanced to me... you get the proper skill to see me, hold a shield or cast a spell to block my arrows or close on me quickly and I get the chance to kill those of you unprepared for such an attack.
It takes skill on my part to and preparedness on your part.
Im sorry its not running up and hitting the "/hit him" button. Not all classes should be that simple.
_____________________________ *This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
I'm not sure why you would expect people to flame you for liking stealthy gameplay and saying that you'll miss it, but I also don't think Mythic excluded stealth out of dislike for it. I think they recognised that it could not be well implemented into the game they wanted to build. If I know Mythic at all, they'll wait for someone else to implement stealth effectively into an MMO and use it at a later date.
Mythic, like Blizzard, is renowned not for being innovative, but for cherry-picking what they think works best and making it a bit slicker. The real innovation happens in less successful products -- a tragedy for the developers of those products, but the perpetual gritty nature beneath this industry and many others.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Hahah yeah right. No stealther ever "scouts". They're all living their pathetic lone wolf uber l337 wetdream. Stealthers don't group and they certainly don't give other people info so that they can come and take "their" kills.
Its like pulling teeth to get semi-intelligent answers/responses out of alot of people. Thanks to all of you who actually posted with responses you didnt write first in crayon.
Then you called me a clown. That's mean. How can I be a clown for expressing my opinion, op? Trust me I've heard the "scout" argument plenty of times by pro-stealther classes.. had it in DAoC too.. the result? Stealthers went off and soloed, and jealously guarded kills or sent you tells crying if you swooped in and killed someone they thought was "theirs".
Originally posted by elvenangel Originally posted by logangregor Ive seen stealthers be weak in pvp "shadowbane" Ive seen stealthers be overpowered vs many soft caster classes like in DAOC. And Ive seen a nice balance in WoW. Yea it took them 2 years..count them 2 years to semi balance stealth..all in all WoW still isn't properly balanced. Honestly Stealthers were the reason I hated WoW pvp..it made no sense you could walk around the desert and some guy just comes out of no where, hits you, returns to stealth, moves around, hits you again, stealths. That sort of stealthing is what fubar'd MMOs. Not even EQ 1 or UO had this sort of stealthing. Stealthing of this invisiblity fashion is UNnatural to MMOs. Stealthers just add that one more element of surprise to pvp, the thing your not counting on to happen....like your healer getting ganked with three tanks around him. Because this is an RVR game not a flat out PVP gank fiesta 1 vs 1 Pwnage game and collision detection is on terrain is very important. Want to surprise someone? Use the terrain to your advantage, learn to think and sneak using the world as your hiding spot not the lame *press button and stand still* BS that newer MMO's have brought along. Everything the OP wants to be able to do is possible without the 'auto invisiblity' stealth button. You just have to be smarter.
I for one do not feel for today's stealthers. Today's stealthers are melee classes with an invisibility spell that just makes no damn sense. Personally I'm glad they're sticking with the IP and leaving stealth in the fashion of newer MMO's out of the game. OP hopefully you'll find some other awsome stratedgy for scouting without the invisiblity button and you can pretty much forget 1 vs 1 battles unless the class your shooting at is weak against you on the Paper Rock Scissors tree. Good luck to you and see you out there on the front lines!
I forgot you cant say anything nice about WoW without someone crying about it.
I will say what I said earlier regarding balance in a different way so maybe there will be a few less tears :P
Compared to the gimp stealthers in shadowbane and the overpowered stealthers in DAOC I think WoWs stealth classes are very balanced.
You pro stealth people need to get a clue.......seriously.
WAR is based on Warhammer tabletop and Warhammer Fantasy Role Play.....There is no stealth in either of these.........none........zero........zilch......nada.
If WAR is based on the mechanics of these (which it is) what kind of convoluted thinking produces the opinion that this game needs stealth?............any gueses.........cmon.........any?
The only people who want Stealth in this game have a very limited grasp of Warhammer.....pay no attention to them.....they are trolls who are trying to garner support for an ability that the Developers have stated in explicit terms "THERE WILL BE NO STEALTH IN WARHAMMER BECAUSE IT DOSEN'T EXIST IN THIS SETTING"
Is it sinking in
To give any of the classes a stealth ability would break cannon......It would be like giving a Wookiee from star wars the ability to speak english.
The Developers of WAR are fanatical about staying within the lines of cannon.
The only type of stealth that might make it in would be a very limited stealth that only shortens the distance others could detect you. If you are 10 feet from someone they WILL see you.
Since there will be no Skaven, Dark Elves, or Wood Elves in at release there is Zero chance of the game shipping with stealth. These are the only armies of Warhammer that have Stealth units. And their stealth is not invisibility, just sneaky. They may get an ability to be able to hide without moving, reduce the radius they are detected, or some other similar ability. They will never have an invisibility like ability because they just dont.
"THERE WILL BE NO STEALTH IN WARHAMMER BECAUSE IT DOSEN'T EXIST IN THIS SETTING"
To be fair there is stealth in Warhammer just not the same as MMO's. Any scouting unit that you get to place anywhere on the table top is basically stealthing. You think my chameleon skinks just ran up behind the Giant army of Chaos? Or did they stealthily creep there to start the game? Sure its a stretch, but also the reason there is no stealth its not feasible on a table top game. I think stealth could be implemented logically in an expansion if they bring out Lizzies vs. Skaven as their first expansion (as i predict they will.) Skaven Assassin vs Chameleon Skink. That being said, I really, really, really hope they don't implement stealth in any of the forms in which is out today. Now if they figure out some way where the environment actually affects stealth and peoples abilities to see the character that would be cool. Like maybe they don't fully disappear but they can't be tab targetted in cover, and become translucent and hard to see in cover that would be cool. I just dont want to be stunned by some invisible guy in an open field. That just makes no sense. I no longer know where i was going with this and need to get back to work.
"THERE WILL BE NO STEALTH IN WARHAMMER BECAUSE IT DOSEN'T EXIST IN THIS SETTING"
To be fair there is stealth in Warhammer just not the same as MMO's. Any scouting unit that you get to place anywhere on the table top is basically stealthing. You think my chameleon skinks just ran up behind the Giant army of Chaos? Or did they stealthily creep there to start the game? Sure its a stretch, but also the reason there is no stealth its not feasible on a table top game. I think stealth could be implemented logically in an expansion if they bring out Lizzies vs. Skaven as their first expansion (as i predict they will.) Skaven Assassin vs Chameleon Skink. That being said, I really, really, really hope they don't implement stealth in any of the forms in which is out today. Now if they figure out some way where the environment actually affects stealth and peoples abilities to see the character that would be cool. Like maybe they don't fully disappear but they can't be tab targetted in cover, and become translucent and hard to see in cover that would be cool. I just dont want to be stunned by some invisible guy in an open field. That just makes no sense. I no longer know where i was going with this and need to get back to work.
Sorry for the incomplete post, I was writing that at the same time you were replying. I agree there can be stealth to gain a situational advantage, no probs there. I was mainly referring to Invisibility, where you bump into someone who just happened to be out in the middle of nowhere.
"THERE WILL BE NO STEALTH IN WARHAMMER BECAUSE IT DOSEN'T EXIST IN THIS SETTING"
To be fair there is stealth in Warhammer just not the same as MMO's. Any scouting unit that you get to place anywhere on the table top is basically stealthing. You think my chameleon skinks just ran up behind the Giant army of Chaos? Or did they stealthily creep there to start the game? Sure its a stretch, but also the reason there is no stealth its not feasible on a table top game. I think stealth could be implemented logically in an expansion if they bring out Lizzies vs. Skaven as their first expansion (as i predict they will.) Skaven Assassin vs Chameleon Skink. That being said, I really, really, really hope they don't implement stealth in any of the forms in which is out today. Now if they figure out some way where the environment actually affects stealth and peoples abilities to see the character that would be cool. Like maybe they don't fully disappear but they can't be tab targetted in cover, and become translucent and hard to see in cover that would be cool. I just dont want to be stunned by some invisible guy in an open field. That just makes no sense. I no longer know where i was going with this and need to get back to work.
Sorry for the incomplete post, I was writing that at the same time you were replying. I agree there can be stealth to gain a situational advantage, no probs there. I was mainly referring to Invisibility, where you bump into someone who just happened to be out in the middle of nowhere.
Wow...
I think this is what I have been saying since my first post.
Guess since im one of "those pro stealth guys, who need to get a clue",my original post and those after were easily overlooked.
_____________________________ *This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
Crouching down in an open field in front of 30 people is hardly "stealthy" and I've held that belief ever since EQ1. In EQ1 at least you had to attempt to sneak behind mobs and make little noise or they would turn around and spot you. Nothing is stopping you from being "stealthy" just now sneaking around will require some skill to not be seen.
There are rogue's & rogue types in nearly every mmorg please isit to much to ask to leave this class out just for once.
Warhammer does not need stealth classes please stop whinning on about bloody stealth. This is War not hide behind the hedge and backstab the wizard in hes ass & kill him before he can say abbra cab dabbra, which is all that a stealth class is ( cloth killer ) Warhammer has got some delightfull classes to play, it does'nt need stealth to ruin War.
Comments
I use to doubt you my friend
There's a lot of techniques that are 'stealthy', that if implemented correctly, would make for more complex fighting... and they don't have to be tied to a single class either. The whole 'invis' and 'chance-to-see' mechanic seems very dorky and artificial the more you think about it..
There's a lot of techniques that are 'stealthy', that if implemented correctly, would make for more complex fighting... and they don't have to be tied to a single class either. The whole 'invis' and 'chance-to-see' mechanic seems very dorky and artificial the more you think about it..
This is what I would never like to see unless you give everyone a ranged lock spell of some type.. There would have to be some kind of concequences (SP) for wanting to gank someone. Because if this is how stealth would be implemented thats all you would get.. No scouting just straight up ganking. Too many people that like stealth type players are in it just to see who they can take, and if they start getting their ass handed to them they just want to run. Think if all classes could do this what FUN could that be.
If someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles to frown, but it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and whack them in the head.
I agree with you. However, if you're considering flaming me, don't. Try to argue like anyone and not just flame around randomly and call me a troll while you yourself is a forty times bigger one.
To the topic: I'm with you. Stealth adds another level to the gameplay. It adds a feeling of unease as you never know where the enemies are. You will always be prepared and ready if there is stealth in the game.
Stealth doesn't have to be overpowered. Stealth is just another skill, it can be overpowered, underpowered or balanced.
Implementing something as simple as being able to climb up in a tree would be what I would consider balanced stealth. By changing stealth to the ability to use the environment to hide you make pretty much every class able to use "stealth". This also makes it more logical as well as makes everyone uneasy.
Finally. I've mentioned a few of my points in why I believe stealth should be in the game. I've got over the fact that stealth won't be in the game and I don't really mind at all. I'm not going to play WoW and I'm definitely not a troll just because I don't agree with the rest.
I say Stealth for everyone that way we can all run around not knowing where anyone is = No one ever gets ganked and no one ever dies we can all be hero's and not ever have seen anyone but don't worry it will still be a persistent world even though you can' t see the 500 people standing around you.
Fun Fun Fun huh.
I could see stelth as being a skill that eliminates your name tag or something for a duration of time allowing for hiding behind trees and so forth without your name tag sticking out like a soar thumb. and even the hiding under a pile of leaves thing someone else mentioned before would be ok. But IMO the only class in any game that should have complete invisibility should be a mage seeing as going invisible in any time period would have been considered magic or witchcraft.
And no I wouldn't say OP mages personally if your invis you should not be able to interact with the physical world.( Like a phase shift into another Dimension or something)
But whatever I'm not building the game I'll just be playing it.
I will say this out of all my toons in WoW and yes I'm playing till one of the others comes out my lowest toon is my rogue at lvl 37.
"The most important thing is to have the design support the players in setting their own goals in both cooperative and competitive interaction with one another." - Ironore -
A very well written post, thank you OP.
I believe it's about time we see a MMO with "next generation" stealth.
How? True stealth.
Let me explain.
Make a stealth system where your character's skill/level of stealthiness determines the distance at which the game client renders that player to others. Make this affected by the day/night cycle (distance is much shorter at night and much longer during the day)
Make it so moving increases the range in which you can be detected, the faster you are moving the more likely to be detected.
Make it so if you are in the frontal 180 degree arc of another player/mob the rendering distance goes up.
Unless of course if the stealther has already been targetting/spotted, you have no magical vanishing back into thin air.
Make a "Vanish" ability work realistically. You throw a small bit of flash powder at the ground, blinding your opponents to your presence for a few seconds. I.E. 2-3 seconds where no one can see you, after that time is up, you reappear...
True camouflage.
Give stealth characters the ability to "gather" material from their environment to construct a camo suit (much like real life snipers do, but I can't remember what they call it) Make this camo suit effect the distance at which the game client renders them to others. Make moving effect this as well.
This way, a stealthy player can hide and lie in waiting easily, and would also be very useful for scouting.. but sneaking up and ambushing another player/NPC would be difficult to do and require a great deal of skill and luck on the part of the player.
No magic stealth. Realistic stealth.
In a MMO, there is no way you could do stealth like Splinter Cell or Riddick... you simply can't have that level of lighting technology in a MMO at this point. But you CAN control the distance at which the game client renders near by objects into a player view.
Use this as a means to create a realistic stealth system.
Agreed.
I have indeed played rogue/stealth/invisible characters in several MMOs, and I have to say that DAoC opened my eyes to what a bad idea stealth/invisibility in a PvP-RvR oriented game can be.
Simply put, you should be ABLE to SEE your enemies.
Mythic is well aware that many players enjoy rogues and stealth -- and that many players detest all those invisible players.
They made a decision: no stealth.
Okay, fine. I can accept that.
~~~
Note: the only kind of stealth that I could ever find acceptable in WAR would be what some call "Camouflage." Which is to say, if you are completely motionless, you will be hard to see. If you twitch a finger, you become visible. The only valid purpose for this skill would be "scouting" and sometimes "sniping."
However, if Mythic never puts this into the game, it won't bother me.
~ Ancient Membership ~
I agree on most of your points here, as they are very similar to my post earlier in this thread.
At the end of the day, I don't mind people being able to hide while standing still. make a player translucent, the degree of which is based on their skill and "possible cover" as decided by the environment around them. This would be comparable to using some soft of camofloge. The justification for this would be that the person took some time (i.e., this is NOT instantaneous and requires several seconds, maybe even 30), to slowly "fade out" of view.
The concept of even being "hidden" while moving is just silly. Rendering engines have to be developed that incoprate depth and density of objects better before this can be simulated in a game.
I'm all for a more realistic sense of stealth, as long as it keeps the game fun for everyone involved.
Hahah yeah right. No stealther ever "scouts". They're all living their pathetic lone wolf uber l337 wetdream. Stealthers don't group and they certainly don't give other people info so that they can come and take "their" kills.
There will be stealth
No stealth period.....
Becoming invisible is something a wizard could do and thats about as far as I am willing to tolerate it. If you want to be sneaky then you should have to sneak. Hide behind a tree or some bushes. If you are walking around right in front of me then I should be able to see you period.
The decision to get rid of stealth is a good one and i applaud WAR devs for making it.
Critical thinking is a desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and hatred for every kind of imposture.
Thanks for your participation in this thread.
... but seriously...
Its like pulling teeth to get semi-intelligent answers/responses out of alot of people. Thanks to all of you who actually posted with responses you didnt write first in crayon.
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*This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
If you want realistic hiding, hide behind a tree or in a shadow. If you want realistic camouflage, wear green/gray/brown armor. If you want flash powder, fine, fill my client with blinding smoke and sparks.
(And for the record, I think you are underestimating what can be done with lighting in an MMO.)
But there is absolutely nothing realistic about not rendering the avatar. You can't choose not to render yourself in real life, can you?
I need to make something a bit more clear, i suppose. As I have heard quite a few posters here mention "dissappearing into thin air", perhaps I have not gotten my point across well enough.
Let me explain. Slowly, for some of you.
I dont want stealth in this game. I will miss having the rogue class in it(as it has been a staple of the high fantasy genre for my entire life), but I am not trying to push it down the devs necks. I mearly had a rant. Some of you replied well. Some... well... not so much.
Let me get back on track..
I enjoy a skill based stealth system. Sticking to shadows, soft ground, and out of direct line of view are essential to said system. Giving others a chance to see through my sneaky talent is also essential.
I dont want to poof into thin air. I dont want to get my "uber l337 kills" or whatever that clown said a few posts before. I want to have the chance to sneak around you in the middle of the woods and, unless you have the proper skill set to stop me, kill your a$$. It seems balanced to me... you get the proper skill to see me, hold a shield or cast a spell to block my arrows or close on me quickly and I get the chance to kill those of you unprepared for such an attack.
It takes skill on my part to and preparedness on your part.
Im sorry its not running up and hitting the "/hit him" button. Not all classes should be that simple.
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*This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
I'm not sure why you would expect people to flame you for liking stealthy gameplay and saying that you'll miss it, but I also don't think Mythic excluded stealth out of dislike for it. I think they recognised that it could not be well implemented into the game they wanted to build. If I know Mythic at all, they'll wait for someone else to implement stealth effectively into an MMO and use it at a later date.
Mythic, like Blizzard, is renowned not for being innovative, but for cherry-picking what they think works best and making it a bit slicker. The real innovation happens in less successful products -- a tragedy for the developers of those products, but the perpetual gritty nature beneath this industry and many others.
I'd suggest playing WoW then. I for one am glad stealth will not be a part of WAR.
Thanks for your participation in this thread.
... but seriously...
Its like pulling teeth to get semi-intelligent answers/responses out of alot of people. Thanks to all of you who actually posted with responses you didnt write first in crayon.
Then you called me a clown. That's mean. How can I be a clown for expressing my opinion, op? Trust me I've heard the "scout" argument plenty of times by pro-stealther classes.. had it in DAoC too.. the result? Stealthers went off and soloed, and jealously guarded kills or sent you tells crying if you swooped in and killed someone they thought was "theirs".Your welcome for my participation in this thread.
I for one do not feel for today's stealthers. Today's stealthers are melee classes with an invisibility spell that just makes no damn sense. Personally I'm glad they're sticking with the IP and leaving stealth in the fashion of newer MMO's out of the game.
OP hopefully you'll find some other awsome stratedgy for scouting without the invisiblity button and you can pretty much forget 1 vs 1 battles unless the class your shooting at is weak against you on the Paper Rock Scissors tree.
Good luck to you and see you out there on the front lines!
I forgot you cant say anything nice about WoW without someone crying about it.
I will say what I said earlier regarding balance in a different way so maybe there will be a few less tears :P
Compared to the gimp stealthers in shadowbane and the overpowered stealthers in DAOC I think WoWs stealth classes are very balanced.
You pro stealth people need to get a clue.......seriously.
WAR is based on Warhammer tabletop and Warhammer Fantasy Role Play.....There is no stealth in either of these.........none........zero........zilch......nada.
If WAR is based on the mechanics of these (which it is) what kind of convoluted thinking produces the opinion that this game needs stealth?............any gueses.........cmon.........any?
The only people who want Stealth in this game have a very limited grasp of Warhammer.....pay no attention to them.....they are trolls who are trying to garner support for an ability that the Developers have stated in explicit terms "THERE WILL BE NO STEALTH IN WARHAMMER BECAUSE IT DOSEN'T EXIST IN THIS SETTING"
Is it sinking in
To give any of the classes a stealth ability would break cannon......It would be like giving a Wookiee from star wars the ability to speak english.
The Developers of WAR are fanatical about staying within the lines of cannon.
The only type of stealth that might make it in would be a very limited stealth that only shortens the distance others could detect you. If you are 10 feet from someone they WILL see you.
Since there will be no Skaven, Dark Elves, or Wood Elves in at release there is Zero chance of the game shipping with stealth. These are the only armies of Warhammer that have Stealth units. And their stealth is not invisibility, just sneaky. They may get an ability to be able to hide without moving, reduce the radius they are detected, or some other similar ability. They will never have an invisibility like ability because they just dont.
To be fair there is stealth in Warhammer just not the same as MMO's. Any scouting unit that you get to place anywhere on the table top is basically stealthing. You think my chameleon skinks just ran up behind the Giant army of Chaos? Or did they stealthily creep there to start the game? Sure its a stretch, but also the reason there is no stealth its not feasible on a table top game. I think stealth could be implemented logically in an expansion if they bring out Lizzies vs. Skaven as their first expansion (as i predict they will.) Skaven Assassin vs Chameleon Skink. That being said, I really, really, really hope they don't implement stealth in any of the forms in which is out today. Now if they figure out some way where the environment actually affects stealth and peoples abilities to see the character that would be cool. Like maybe they don't fully disappear but they can't be tab targetted in cover, and become translucent and hard to see in cover that would be cool. I just dont want to be stunned by some invisible guy in an open field. That just makes no sense. I no longer know where i was going with this and need to get back to work.
To be fair there is stealth in Warhammer just not the same as MMO's. Any scouting unit that you get to place anywhere on the table top is basically stealthing. You think my chameleon skinks just ran up behind the Giant army of Chaos? Or did they stealthily creep there to start the game? Sure its a stretch, but also the reason there is no stealth its not feasible on a table top game. I think stealth could be implemented logically in an expansion if they bring out Lizzies vs. Skaven as their first expansion (as i predict they will.) Skaven Assassin vs Chameleon Skink. That being said, I really, really, really hope they don't implement stealth in any of the forms in which is out today. Now if they figure out some way where the environment actually affects stealth and peoples abilities to see the character that would be cool. Like maybe they don't fully disappear but they can't be tab targetted in cover, and become translucent and hard to see in cover that would be cool. I just dont want to be stunned by some invisible guy in an open field. That just makes no sense. I no longer know where i was going with this and need to get back to work.
Sorry for the incomplete post, I was writing that at the same time you were replying. I agree there can be stealth to gain a situational advantage, no probs there. I was mainly referring to Invisibility, where you bump into someone who just happened to be out in the middle of nowhere.
To be fair there is stealth in Warhammer just not the same as MMO's. Any scouting unit that you get to place anywhere on the table top is basically stealthing. You think my chameleon skinks just ran up behind the Giant army of Chaos? Or did they stealthily creep there to start the game? Sure its a stretch, but also the reason there is no stealth its not feasible on a table top game. I think stealth could be implemented logically in an expansion if they bring out Lizzies vs. Skaven as their first expansion (as i predict they will.) Skaven Assassin vs Chameleon Skink. That being said, I really, really, really hope they don't implement stealth in any of the forms in which is out today. Now if they figure out some way where the environment actually affects stealth and peoples abilities to see the character that would be cool. Like maybe they don't fully disappear but they can't be tab targetted in cover, and become translucent and hard to see in cover that would be cool. I just dont want to be stunned by some invisible guy in an open field. That just makes no sense. I no longer know where i was going with this and need to get back to work.
Sorry for the incomplete post, I was writing that at the same time you were replying. I agree there can be stealth to gain a situational advantage, no probs there. I was mainly referring to Invisibility, where you bump into someone who just happened to be out in the middle of nowhere.
Wow...
I think this is what I have been saying since my first post.
Guess since im one of "those pro stealth guys, who need to get a clue",my original post and those after were easily overlooked.
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*This thread contains enough compressed stupidity to erase all science as far back as the middle ages.
Crouching down in an open field in front of 30 people is hardly "stealthy" and I've held that belief ever since EQ1. In EQ1 at least you had to attempt to sneak behind mobs and make little noise or they would turn around and spot you. Nothing is stopping you from being "stealthy" just now sneaking around will require some skill to not be seen.
There are rogue's & rogue types in nearly every mmorg please isit to much to ask to leave this class out just for once.
Warhammer does not need stealth classes please stop whinning on about bloody stealth. This is War not hide behind the hedge and backstab the wizard in hes ass & kill him before he can say abbra cab dabbra, which is all that a stealth class is ( cloth killer ) Warhammer has got some delightfull classes to play, it does'nt need stealth to ruin War.