Not sure why people equate "skill based advancement" with "sandbox". UO was as successful as it was for two reasons: Macros were allowed and it was the only choice. The instant EQ1 came out, it died. SW:G was as successful as it was because it had the name "Star Wars" in the title, not because it was skill based. That "sandbox" world was a giant, empty, boring, sandbox. Sure you could run anywhere you wanted, but you didn't need to as it as all the same, empty (At least at the start, though when I played it 2 years after release or so, it was still empty). Skill based games are much more limiting than class based. You end up with 2-3 templates of the month (and you have to have templates because if you, *gasp* locked people into the skills they learned, they'd cry and whine when their skillset was no longer the most powerful and be unable to switch, they'd quit). Most people go through life with one profession. Sure there's the odd person with 20 different skill sets, brain surgeon, poet, surfer dude, etc... but they are super rare, and they typically don't FORGET all they've learned when they switch jobs. That's what make skill based systems (or job based like FFXI) so silly in my eyes... "I'd like a frontal lobotomy, fries and a dr. pepper, please." How can you forget that you were a sniper in order to become a creature handler?!?
I read your post 4 times and apart from the part where SWG was empty i didnt understand a thing u said....
AoC will hopefully be a great game and not too much of a WoW clone.
I personally love sandbox games. SWG was my favorite MMO I have ever played. It had many many many great things about it. From character customization to classes to player housing to pvp to the economy. Hopefully a game will come out that takes all the great ideas SWG had and add them to their mix. AoC could work fairly well if it was a sandbox game like SWG yet still keeping its roots...
Sadly people don't seem to like sandbox games because they like to be told what to do and not have an open ended game. They like to know what their path will be before they level from 2 to 3... I like what SWG was before the NGE because it felt much more real in terms of individualism. The NGE and SOE killed SWG not bugs.
BTW give him a break. Theres a lot of online translators that end up making giving you grammar that is terrible.
And to the OP the game it sounds like you want to play is SWG pre-cu or at least pre-nge. Give AoC a try though because I highly doubt a game that is like SWG pre-cu will come out any time soon. AoC seems like it will be as close to that as you can get currently so just give it a try. I enjoyed WoW and I loved SWG and this seems like a partial mix of the two with some other things thrown in so hopefully it will be good.
AoC will hopefully be a great game and not too much of a WoW clone. I personally love sandbox games. SWG was my favorite MMO I have ever played. It had many many many great things about it. From character customization to classes to player housing to pvp to the economy. Hopefully a game will come out that takes all the great ideas SWG had and add them to their mix. AoC could work fairly well if it was a sandbox game like SWG yet still keeping its roots... Sadly people don't seem to like sandbox games because they like to be told what to do and not have an open ended game. They like to know what their path will be before they level from 2 to 3... I like what SWG was before the NGE because it felt much more real in terms of individualism. The NGE and SOE killed SWG not bugs. BTW give him a break. Theres a lot of online translators that end up making giving you grammar that is terrible. And to the OP the game it sounds like you want to play is SWG pre-cu or at least pre-nge. Give AoC a try though because I highly doubt a game that is like SWG pre-cu will come out any time soon. AoC seems like it will be as close to that as you can get currently so just give it a try. I enjoyed WoW and I loved SWG and this seems like a partial mix of the two with some other things thrown in so hopefully it will be good.
first of all, cheers for backing me up a bit . Really sick of smart ass teachers....
And dont understand me wrong m8. I am still trying out Conan. Its just i really whant to see a good sandbox game, outside all of those wow clones . If i dont have to choose from(sandbox), i will stick with best wow clone there is. Easy as that
The next MMOG that is likely to be fairly sandbox-y is probably gonna be CCP/White Wolf's World of Darkness. Now mind there won't be typical player housing (though having an apartment in a skyrise of which ever city the game is based in, might be nice. And it's unlikely to have very extensive crafting. But it'll be an open city to explore, plenty of fantastic RP possibilities, secret cults, penthouses for the Ventrue the squabble and plan, etc. Theres few details about the game available, it's not even officially been announced. But if it's ANYTHING like the PnP game (latest edition,) it's sure to be sandboxy and awesome.
Oh, the World of Darkness game currently has my money. I say this b/c we don't really know much about the game mechanics, and I can only go on, and hope for, that they will go skill based and get stably creative with the the system used in the pencil & paper RPG (the last iteration; haven't looked at the newest version's rules). The good things is, as others have mentioned, CCP has good experience making skill based-boxes.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Galaxies was the last Sand Box. Most developers are looking to make a hit with a certain flavor of game like WoW did, but WoW isnt the most successful game in history. Money wise it may be but as far as a game that will be played until the sun goes nova, now thats Counter Strike.
Pure Simplistic Genius of concept, design and replayability.
I believe that you can actually have the best of both worlds. I understand that a sandbox such as orginal UO won't come into scene again, however, the WoW type could be more sandbox as long as they start to open up some freedoms inside their conservative boundaries.
i loved the freedoms of UO and all but I really don't understand the need for such things, I mean what are you trying to do in these games, meet chicks? that's what the real world is for
I think there is plenty to do in MMO games, the only problem is that they don't put more depth to them.
these game companies add crafting systems, but put no thought into them, if they were a little more complicated an actually required more input from the user, it would give you that sense that you are actually accomplishing something.
the same goes for every system that is in place, the auction houses, player houses, character equipment and management in general.. you get my drift.
Sandboxes don't sell well, games like WOW do. (or so the current crop of developers believe). So don't expect much to change in the near future, unless somehow DF manages to get released.
EVE sold well and UO sold well and even SWG sold well..... not our fault the developers don't know how to make good sandbox games anymore so obviously they aint selling well compared to the other format because two of them are ruined and the other is a very niche product by having no real avatar.
yeah.. it seems like it will just be like wow with conan stuck over the top, its such a shame i had massive hopes for this game i really wanted the pvp, but they went back on their word of pvp loot and game being dark and gritty and brutal ... sigh it's probably all the polls which were mostly undertaken by only carebears who voted for pvp to be nerfed... Oh well i guess TCOS, or EVE ...
Sandboxes don't sell well, games like WOW do. (or so the current crop of developers believe). So don't expect much to change in the near future, unless somehow DF manages to get released.
EVE sold well and UO sold well and even SWG sold well..... not our fault the developers don't know how to make good sandbox games anymore so obviously they aint selling well compared to the other format because two of them are ruined and the other is a very niche product by having no real avatar.
Eve, UO and SWG all sold well when 200-300K subscriptions was considered good. Sadly that isnt the case anymore. While those numbers are still highly profitable, and actually make for some fo the best populations, a certain game that shall remain nameless came along and blew those numbers up.
Now the ever greedy money men who back MMOs want to see the player base in the 1M and higher range just like the game that shall not be named.
I agree with you, most players probably agree with you, but sadly those that put in the money to back game development dont seem to agree with you.
Sandboxes don't sell well, games like WOW do. (or so the current crop of developers believe). So don't expect much to change in the near future, unless somehow DF manages to get released.
EVE sold well and UO sold well and even SWG sold well..... not our fault the developers don't know how to make good sandbox games anymore so obviously they aint selling well compared to the other format because two of them are ruined and the other is a very niche product by having no real avatar.
Eve, UO and SWG all sold well when 200-300K subscriptions was considered good. Sadly that isnt the case anymore. While those numbers are still highly profitable, and actually make for some fo the best populations, a certain game that shall remain nameless came along and blew those numbers up.
Now the ever greedy money men who back MMOs want to see the player base in the 1M and higher range just like the game that shall not be named.
I agree with you, most players probably agree with you, but sadly those that put in the money to back game development dont seem to agree with you.
Which is why I said one us, those who aren't contaminated by special interest groups just like the majority of our (US) politicians in Washington, needs to be in a financial situation to make MMOs. Then we could truly bring back the slogan I believe it was that Interplay had: By Gamers, For Gamers.
Right now its: By Suits For Shareholders.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
It was more of a game that players themselves controlled... From pvp to cities to crafting to class mixtures. It felt like a MMO with a lot of freedom. I loved it.
It was more of a game that players themselves controlled... From pvp to cities to crafting to class mixtures. It felt like a MMO with a lot of freedom. I loved it.
Felt like a giant empty hole to me:). Vast stretches of nothing. Empty player cities. And the class mixtures were all macro'd templates of the month.
While skill based advancement rather than class progression is a hallmark of a Sandbox game, it is not the only feature.
Remember that not only did UO have raids but SWG did as well. The real difference between a progression game and a Sandbox game is that in one the game content is storyline based, the other the players create the storyline. Economy is also a major componant, where players have enough crafting options to control the economy themselves.
With city building, open PvP, and other intented features AoC does have the potential to be a high percentage sandbox game. That said, they have included endgame raiding as a key feature and their crafting is right now not looking exactly right I wouldn't rule out that it may appeal to both crowds.
The early poster is right though, EVE Online is probably the most viable Sandbox game currently, with player economics, crafting, skill based progression, and empire building which appeal to many, including me. But again, it is a bit more than Sandbox, more accuratly described (not originally by me) as a Lord of the Flies game.
Comments
I read your post 4 times and apart from the part where SWG was empty i didnt understand a thing u said....
AoC will hopefully be a great game and not too much of a WoW clone.
I personally love sandbox games. SWG was my favorite MMO I have ever played. It had many many many great things about it. From character customization to classes to player housing to pvp to the economy. Hopefully a game will come out that takes all the great ideas SWG had and add them to their mix. AoC could work fairly well if it was a sandbox game like SWG yet still keeping its roots...
Sadly people don't seem to like sandbox games because they like to be told what to do and not have an open ended game. They like to know what their path will be before they level from 2 to 3... I like what SWG was before the NGE because it felt much more real in terms of individualism. The NGE and SOE killed SWG not bugs.
BTW give him a break. Theres a lot of online translators that end up making giving you grammar that is terrible.
And to the OP the game it sounds like you want to play is SWG pre-cu or at least pre-nge. Give AoC a try though because I highly doubt a game that is like SWG pre-cu will come out any time soon. AoC seems like it will be as close to that as you can get currently so just give it a try. I enjoyed WoW and I loved SWG and this seems like a partial mix of the two with some other things thrown in so hopefully it will be good.
And dont understand me wrong m8. I am still trying out Conan. Its just i really whant to see a good sandbox game, outside all of those wow clones
. If i dont have to choose from(sandbox), i will stick with best wow clone there is. Easy as that
Oh, the World of Darkness game currently has my money. I say this b/c we don't really know much about the game mechanics, and I can only go on, and hope for, that they will go skill based and get stably creative with the the system used in the pencil & paper RPG (the last iteration; haven't looked at the newest version's rules). The good things is, as others have mentioned, CCP has good experience making skill based-boxes.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Galaxies was the last Sand Box. Most developers are looking to make a hit with a certain flavor of game like WoW did, but WoW isnt the most successful game in history. Money wise it may be but as far as a game that will be played until the sun goes nova, now thats Counter Strike.
Pure Simplistic Genius of concept, design and replayability.
I believe that you can actually have the best of both worlds. I understand that a sandbox such as orginal UO won't come into scene again, however, the WoW type could be more sandbox as long as they start to open up some freedoms inside their conservative boundaries.
i loved the freedoms of UO and all but I really don't understand the need for such things, I mean what are you trying to do in these games, meet chicks? that's what the real world is for
I think there is plenty to do in MMO games, the only problem is that they don't put more depth to them.
these game companies add crafting systems, but put no thought into them, if they were a little more complicated an actually required more input from the user, it would give you that sense that you are actually accomplishing something.
the same goes for every system that is in place, the auction houses, player houses, character equipment and management in general.. you get my drift.
EVE sold well and UO sold well and even SWG sold well..... not our fault the developers don't know how to make good sandbox games anymore so obviously they aint selling well compared to the other format because two of them are ruined and the other is a very niche product by having no real avatar.
Age of Conan is not World of WarCraft.
Hyboria is not Azeroth.
Conan is not Thrall.
War Mammoths are not Elekks.
Guardians are not Warriors.
Conquerors are not Paladins.
Rangers are not Hunters.
Demonologists are not Warlocks.
Magi are not Magi.
Assassins are not Rogues.
Rogues are not Rogues.
Bear Shaman are not Druids.
Bear Shaman are not Shaman.
Priests of Mitra are not Priests.
Dark Templars are not Death Knights.
Crom is not Sargeras.
Feats are not talents.
Fatalities are not spamming /spit.
Combination attacks are not automatic attacks.
Border Kingdoms are not Battlegrounds.
Cimmerians are not Horde.
Aquilonians are not Alliance.
Stygians are not... goblins?
Heralds of Xotli are not Draenei.
Kilts are not dresses.
Realistic pace of combat is not hyperactive-spastic-arm-twitching-while-desparately-clutching-a-weapon.
...............
Looting options are still to be decided.
You can kill other races including your own.
All servers will have non instanced OPEN pvp on them
The PvP servers will be OPEN everywhere except Hubs/Cities etc.
How the fuck is what you have seen so far not brutal and bloody?
best suggestion for you is to visit the Darkfall forums
nice aa,
and don't forget anather is not another.......
EVE sold well and UO sold well and even SWG sold well..... not our fault the developers don't know how to make good sandbox games anymore so obviously they aint selling well compared to the other format because two of them are ruined and the other is a very niche product by having no real avatar.
Eve, UO and SWG all sold well when 200-300K subscriptions was considered good. Sadly that isnt the case anymore. While those numbers are still highly profitable, and actually make for some fo the best populations, a certain game that shall remain nameless came along and blew those numbers up.Now the ever greedy money men who back MMOs want to see the player base in the 1M and higher range just like the game that shall not be named.
I agree with you, most players probably agree with you, but sadly those that put in the money to back game development dont seem to agree with you.
Yep. SWG was ahead of its time.
EVE sold well and UO sold well and even SWG sold well..... not our fault the developers don't know how to make good sandbox games anymore so obviously they aint selling well compared to the other format because two of them are ruined and the other is a very niche product by having no real avatar.
Eve, UO and SWG all sold well when 200-300K subscriptions was considered good. Sadly that isnt the case anymore. While those numbers are still highly profitable, and actually make for some fo the best populations, a certain game that shall remain nameless came along and blew those numbers up.Now the ever greedy money men who back MMOs want to see the player base in the 1M and higher range just like the game that shall not be named.
I agree with you, most players probably agree with you, but sadly those that put in the money to back game development dont seem to agree with you.
Which is why I said one us, those who aren't contaminated by special interest groups just like the majority of our (US) politicians in Washington, needs to be in a financial situation to make MMOs. Then we could truly bring back the slogan I believe it was that Interplay had: By Gamers, For Gamers.
Right now its: By Suits For Shareholders.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Yep. SWG was ahead of its time.
True Story.It was more of a game that players themselves controlled... From pvp to cities to crafting to class mixtures. It felt like a MMO with a lot of freedom. I loved it.
Yep. SWG was ahead of its time.
True Story.It was more of a game that players themselves controlled... From pvp to cities to crafting to class mixtures. It felt like a MMO with a lot of freedom. I loved it.
Felt like a giant empty hole to me:). Vast stretches of nothing. Empty player cities. And the class mixtures were all macro'd templates of the month.
While skill based advancement rather than class progression is a hallmark of a Sandbox game, it is not the only feature.
Remember that not only did UO have raids but SWG did as well. The real difference between a progression game and a Sandbox game is that in one the game content is storyline based, the other the players create the storyline. Economy is also a major componant, where players have enough crafting options to control the economy themselves.
With city building, open PvP, and other intented features AoC does have the potential to be a high percentage sandbox game. That said, they have included endgame raiding as a key feature and their crafting is right now not looking exactly right I wouldn't rule out that it may appeal to both crowds.
The early poster is right though, EVE Online is probably the most viable Sandbox game currently, with player economics, crafting, skill based progression, and empire building which appeal to many, including me. But again, it is a bit more than Sandbox, more accuratly described (not originally by me) as a Lord of the Flies game.