Vyeth what you describe is one of the reason I don't believe in God.
Why people in Africa has to die of famine?
Why God allows things like genocide to happen?
Why an old lady have to freeze to death in her home cause she cannot afford to turn on the heating?
Where is God when is needed?
So if God cannot do anything in those situations, why would you want a God at all?
Because by principle a God is a superior being, fair, just and wiser than anything, I really can't match this description to the behaviour described above.
Therefore, in my view, God cannot possibly exists, and if it does, I certainly wouldn't like to be in its company, if he behaves in such an appalling way.
I want to post this in response to your questions, The world isnt perfect therefore imperfect things happen to us all weather i'm a preacher or a old lady or a young child who was born with Aids.....my personal believe is without bad things happening to us we will never learn, we will never change or be someone better than what we are....fire and forging makes the blade....it molds our charcter. I'm posting this from http://www.carm.org someone just like you ask the same question and here is there response.
Why is there evil and suffering in the world?
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE Why is there evil and suffering in the world?
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated. Conclusion Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
My question is more, why did God create evil and suffering. Not why did he allow it. The usual answer is that he created freewill which allows the free to choose to create the evil and suffering. To me the whole issue off freewill is intrinsically in conflict the omnipotence and omniscience of god. If everything is created by god and if god is everything how can god avoid the blame for the evil?
It is the paradox of can the omnipotent create something it can't affect. You assume that yes, it can as that is what freewill is outside of gods power therefore we are to blame.
These kind of paradoxes are the reason I can't see a point in having the faith in this kind of story.
I also can't see that there is any glory in this, or any reason to respect honor or worship a paradox. There is a much simpler way, that the story, the definitions are flawed (nothing omnipotent can actually exist, so no paradox) and there is a much more obvious and understandable explanation. Like we fear death, which is a good evolutionary trait, and as part of our social grooming behavior we ease each others fears by telling ourselves and each other that it will be all ok in the future, that there is nothing worry about and we should stop paralyzing ourselves with fear and get on with building stuff for ourselves and the community. We do this through the creation of stories "it’s OK, Daddy will look after you". Although Daddy is impossible to comprehend, paradoxical by definition, worthy of worship, blames you for all the evils in the world as you brought it on yourself but will look after your immaterial, immortal soul if you can accept his love.
Vyeth what you describe is one of the reason I don't believe in God.
Why people in Africa has to die of famine?
Why God allows things like genocide to happen?
Why an old lady have to freeze to death in her home cause she cannot afford to turn on the heating?
Where is God when is needed?
So if God cannot do anything in those situations, why would you want a God at all?
Because by principle a God is a superior being, fair, just and wiser than anything, I really can't match this description to the behaviour described above.
Therefore, in my view, God cannot possibly exists, and if it does, I certainly wouldn't like to be in its company, if he behaves in such an appalling way.
I want to post this in response to your questions, The world isnt perfect therefore imperfect things happen to us all weather i'm a preacher or a old lady or a young child who was born with Aids.....my personal believe is without bad things happening to us we will never learn, we will never change or be someone better than what we are....fire and forging makes the blade....it molds our charcter. I'm posting this from http://www.carm.org someone just like you ask the same question and here is there response.
Why is there evil and suffering in the world?
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).
Rarely have I seen such a long text that despite its length does not even answer the actual question it was asked.
My question is more, why did God create evil and suffering. Not why did he allow it. The usual answer is that he created freewill which allows the free to choose to create the evil and suffering. To me the whole issue off freewill is intrinsically in conflict the omnipotence and omniscience of god. If everything is created by god and if god is everything how can god avoid the blame for the evil? It is the paradox of can the omnipotent create something it can't affect. You assume that yes, it can as that is what freewill is outside of gods power therefore we are to blame. These kind of paradoxes are the reason I can't see a point in having the faith in this kind of story. I also can't see that there is any glory in this, or any reason to respect honor or worship a paradox. There is a much simpler way, that the story, the definitions are flawed (nothing omnipotent can actually exist, so no paradox) and there is a much more obvious and understandable explanation. Like we fear death, which is a good evolutionary trait, and as part of our social grooming behavior we ease each others fears by telling ourselves and each other that it will be all ok in the future, that there is nothing worry about and we should stop paralyzing ourselves with fear and get on with building stuff for ourselves and the community. We do this through the creation of stories "it’s OK, Daddy will look after you". Although Daddy is impossible to comprehend, paradoxical by definition, worthy of worship, blames you for all the evils in the world as you brought it on yourself but will look after your immaterial, immortal soul if you can accept his love.
I believe God is of spirit and therefore you must worship him in spirit, as the bible states
Joh 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him inspirit and in truth.
Therefore our minds will never comprehend God....you have to use your heart that gut feeling of, there is something more in this world then what we see.
He gave place for evil and suffering for his glory but for our's as well, you see before i came to God i wasnt a feel good guy. I most likely would be in jail or hook on drugs becuase the way my life was going. It was suffering in my life that made me realize I cant go through this alone....my family abandon me, my friends no where to be found because what i did in my past made everyone reject me. That evil i done...that suffering i endure. i am not proud of it but i'm thankful for it because it mold me into a better man...That is my glory because now i'm better then i was before i'm happier, my family no longer rejects me....It's God's glory as well because he saved me when i was down in life when depression and suicide filled my "mind". I heard that gut feeling that tug at my heart and it was God pulling me into his glory....he gets my thanks everyday and he gets my praise. I know you cant understand God because this world cant understand God....God breaks us down at times (suffering) in order to rebuild us for his glory his purpose...We are use for his purpose weather it be writing in a forum or talking to someone in the work place, I'm here today because he gave me a new life....he made me into something new. If this wasnt true i wouldnt be so passionate so eager to share this story with you today. I cant tell you what to believe in all i could do is us my life as an example...If God didnt exist then who changed me?
You may still not understand why, sometimes its not meant for us to understand it fully...after all our minds can only comprehend so much, we can only see whats in front of us we cant see the future we dont see why we are in suffering but after the suffering we see the meaning of it......Look at a boxer....does a coach who's training a boxer shows love gentleness...NO! he throws heavy weights on his back he runs him until he almost faints he trains and trains him....to the point of breaking him. It is to prepare him for the fights ahead. The coach does this out of love and concern for the boxer's well being just as God does suffering out of love and our well being. I hope this answers your question, on why he allows suffering. I try to make it simple as possible so that all my understand. God bless and may this help you find the truth.
1Co 3:19 - For thewisdomof this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness
2Co 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a newcreature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
My old things which was the bad things, murder, theft, lying and so much more are gone...i'm new with Love, understanding (of God), patience....truth. These are me now, my newness.
And people keep reciting these words froma book that a man has written and re-written over the years.. A book that a man has modified and altered over the years... Naive and mindlessness...
Has anyone ever wondered what this world would be like if everyones "religion" harbored self-sacrifice (as in suicide bombings and kamikaze tactics).. ALL you people would be doing the same thing those crazy mutha's over in iraq are doing to each other... Listen to yourselves... You do not follow those words because you think it is "good", you listen to them because you feel it is the "right" thing to do.. And who are we to judge "rights" and "wrongs?"
If that book told you that killing yourself in pursuit of an alternate motive was acceptable and the "right" thing to do, you'd all be running into buildings strapped with bombs... It's amazing how easy man is to manipulate.. even after ALL these years and ALL that has happened...
I am glad you have become a better person through god. I am also glad you are happy to talk about it.
I do recognise the healing properties of god, as i recognise the healing properties of a placebo. Our minds and bodys are one in the same, our attidues and beliefs affect or wellbeing, our health affects our attitudes and beliefs.
What i have a problem with is when someone says i am a bad person and will suffer eternaly for my sins when I do my best to be a good person, i follow a very powerful but simple idea of "do unto others as you would have them do unto yourself", but i do not accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour. I respect humanity enough to believe they can come up with such a great idea for getting allong without divine intervention.
I also act on my gut when it comes to beliefs, to me there is a great joy in the world around me when i consider the great beauty that arises in it's incomprehensible complexity. I have dedicated my life to exploring the observable by becoming a scientist. It is great fun, there are always surprises.
I am happy to partake of the 'spirit' of a place, the sence of presence that an old forest has or that a grand cathedral has, however i do not believe that that spirit is anything more than a reflection of my identity as a social animal, my need to define my self from others. A seperation and modeling of others behaviour in order to survive and prosper in a social network. A need to recognise the separation of individuals. A society needs individuals individuals need society they are a dependant structure.
This need and structure within a social system can have echos that are easily seen in things that are not actually even alive. I have a very active imagination, i can easily imagine that even a simple rock has a spirit, an individuality that is crying out to be recognised. However that imagined structure can not be tested, so while enjoyable it is not useful, except as part of my wellbeing.
this is the category that i put the immortal soul and god in. they are nothing more than a construction of humanity for the sake of individual wellbeing. There is plenty of evidence to support that as we tell lots of creative stories, some which are paradoxical in nature like these things.
Basicly i recognise that religion can be a good thing, but like all human creations can also be a bad thing.
Its very interesting what everyone's comments are about this question....but i have another question what happens to us after we die? If in fact nothing, we just seize to exist. I believe that is pretty sad and if you really think about it, whats the point of living? if in the end you're just nothing but bones in the ground? I know some of you may say its what you do while your alive that makes it worth while but think about it why even try to be good or get ahead in life when tomorrow you walk down the street and get hit by a careless driver on the cell phone....all that effort to make a better life for yourself down the drain. Why bother to begin with? I guess its just something to waste our life/time on before we become nothing.
Its very interesting what everyone's comments are about this question....but i have another question what happens to us after we die? If in fact nothing, we just seize to exist. I believe that is pretty sad and if you really think about it, whats the point of living? if in the end you're just nothing but bones in the ground? I know some of you may say its what you do while your alive that makes it worth while but think about it why even try to be good or get ahead in life when tomorrow you walk down the street and get hit by a careless driver on the cell phone....all that effort to make a better life for yourself down the drain. Why bother to begin with? I guess its just something to waste our life/time on before we become nothing.
Maybe we should think bigger: why do humans exist, why does life exist? why does it end? why does the universe exist?, how will it end?
Personally i don't like the idea of death, i decide when i want to die and i don't accept things like faith or god that decide for me. What happens after death who knows? never been there before, and I doubt people who are dead will say, "this place is great, you should all be here"
I don't know why i'm here don't know why i'm alive, and frankly i don't care, maybe i should go into politics and try to change the world.
And perhaps you already did something in live that effected another live, a live that can make a minor change that will result into a big change. For Example, someone trows a can into the sea, it get picked up by a bird, who fly's over a airplane dropping the can into the engine of the plane, making the plane explode, killing a candidate for president, making the other candidate president who deicides that more money needs to go to education, giving a poor lad the chance to go to college where he creates an international star gate that allows us to travel from point A to point B in a few seconds regardless of the distance between it.
And people keep reciting these words froma book that a man has written and re-written over the years.. A book that a man has modified and altered over the years... Naive and mindlessness... Has anyone ever wondered what this world would be like if everyones "religion" harbored self-sacrifice (as in suicide bombings and kamikaze tactics).. ALL you people would be doing the same thing those crazy mutha's over i an alternate motive was acceptable and the "right" thing to do, you'd all be running into buildings n iraq are doing to each other... Listen to yourselves... You do not follow those words because you think it is "good", you listen to them because you feel it is the "right" thing to do.. And who are we to judge "rights" and "wrongs?" If that book told you that killing yourself in pursuit ofstrapped with bombs... It's amazing how easy man is to manipulate.. even after ALL these years and ALL that has happened...
If not us, then who are you to call those suicide bombers "crazy muthas"? As im sure, hope, you feel that murder in the name of religion is "wrong" well atleast that seems to be one of your main points. Who are you to say that murder is wrong? Hopefully your answer is 'a rational human being' just like myself or the BILLIONS of other religious people out there.
The fact of the matter is that no where in the Quran, or The Bible or any respectful religious documents does it say that self-sacrifice on that level is necessary, only the extrapolation of evil mens ideals creates that thought.
If religion was inherently evil that would make the near majority of the population are inherently evil. Which, by observation, is obviously incorrect.
Plus there is the study that i posted in my previous post n the thread that shows that religous people are statistically more tolerant than athiests/agnostics. This is yet another proven benefit to religious pursuits.
I dont hear anyone saying that most terrorists have dark hair, therefore dark hair must be evil? So why is religion your scape goat?
But above all, the fact of the matter is The Book does not tell me to strap a bomb to my chest, if it did, i would not follow it. Compassion, Caring and Love above ALL.
And guess what my fair "wise" one.. Yea.. Never did I say it was "wrong" or "right".. You took it upon YOURSELF to determine the meaning of "crazy muthas".. So before you leap from your dictionary stance in attack mode lets realize the facts.. A crazy mutha is not a "bad" or "wrong" person.. Shit, I am a CRAZY MUTHA.. And so is anyone else who I deem crazy and a mutha.. So, to combat your just weaponry, i'll say this..
Despite what you may think, having a religion and believing in a god is not the ONLY way to appear "good" or "evil".. It is soley up to the human being at heart to determing there OWN sets of rights and wrongs.. You shouldn't sit here and point to the book declaring it "truth" about who shall be considered "good" and who shall be considered "bad".. Want to know my honest opinion of those religious terrorist in Middle east as well as practically ANYONE who lets a book dictate their opinions... They are not "BAD" people, they are very gullible and MIS-INFORMED people...
Take it for what you want, but you cannot prove what you preach bro.. And I know you are going to attack me with "well I can't prove it either." Well exactly, but there I am not endorsing a book to back my claims either! So for me to have to prove myself is moot compared to your ramblings about a book and its code. So while you ramble we ask that you sumbit to us your unyeilding proof or such existance and why these "rules" and "codes" are worth any sort of attention..
As for the rational thought of religious murder, YES.. I (note, ME, not a code or book) think that murder commited in the name of a "religion" is WRONG.. Yes I said it.. I am not going by any codes when I say this, this is me and my own opnion, so I need not recite to you any scriptures and poems to back this and make it seem like solemn words of so called "virtue".. I believe in the eye for an eye system of life and death, and while I am NOT an ANARCHIST, there are some laws that seem to cross moral barriers and seem to have been aided by religion (adultery for example)...
Heed this quote, and try to understand why this man was a very rational being:
I beleive in a God. Some personal experiences I have had, lead me to this. That is'nt to say I have very much faith. I beleive, everything that is, has existed in many states, and at some point, all that was, became self aware. How? I havent a clue.
Is this concious being, Benevolent? I beleive so. How did this being become Benevolent, I have no idea.
I can only surmise that time, and logic, played some role in this. But really, I have no idea.
I also beleive, that mankid, is not capable of understanding, even a fraction of truith, beyond what can be seen, examined, taken apart, put back together, and finally destroyed, for nothing more than purposes of asimilation.
We want to be important I guess. We want to be right, I guess. We want to feel secure in our lives, and even our death, I guess.
However, for all the debate, both for, and against, God. We are still, as a specis, murdering creatures, who ought to know beter. A little Benevolence, would seem in order, on our part, while we yet exist, as a specis.
Specis preservation being the first instinct, you see. And Balance being oh so very crucial, for a planet revolving around a star. As Im told, these two have been accepted as fact.
So in the question of God, perhaps we may want to do what we can about our disposition. And let God go on being whatever, God is. Who knows, a little balance, and some specis preservation, we may exist long enough, to be of some benefit, to "A" God. If nothing more than to give this benevolent being, a little joy... without a price tag.
As for Religion, which gets thrown into God topics. I think that, within the heart of man kind, there exists a curious need to destroy, and that we will use any excuse, to do it. Be it a doctrin, or even just un requited expectations.
Its very interesting what everyone's comments are about this question....but i have another question what happens to us after we die? If in fact nothing, we just seize to exist. I believe that is pretty sad and if you really think about it, whats the point of living? if in the end you're just nothing but bones in the ground? I know some of you may say its what you do while your alive that makes it worth while but think about it why even try to be good or get ahead in life when tomorrow you walk down the street and get hit by a careless driver on the cell phone....all that effort to make a better life for yourself down the drain. Why bother to begin with? I guess its just something to waste our life/time on before we become nothing.
Maybe we should think bigger: why do humans exist, why does life exist? why does it end? why does the universe exist?, how will it end?
Personally i don't like the idea of death, i decide when i want to die and i don't accept things like faith or god that decide for me. What happens after death who knows? never been there before, and I doubt people who are dead will say, "this place is great, you should all be here"
I don't know why i'm here don't know why i'm alive, and frankly i don't care, maybe i should go into politics and try to change the world.
And perhaps you already did something in live that effected another live, a live that can make a minor change that will result into a big change. For Example, someone trows a can into the sea, it get picked up by a bird, who fly's over a airplane dropping the can into the engine of the plane, making the plane explode, killing a candidate for president, making the other candidate president who deicides that more money needs to go to education, giving a poor lad the chance to go to college where he creates an international star gate that allows us to travel from point A to point B in a few seconds regardless of the distance between it.
I can see your point however it contradicts itself if your really think about it...look at the parts highlighted in yellow "i decide when i want to die and don't accept things like faith or god that decide for me." but yet you make a story that clearly shows that you don't have control over when you want to die. If you really think about it believeing in something that has no proof is a sign of faith and you my friend have faith.. even if its not faith in a God.
i agree with krazyblade, believing in something even if it is not god then u surely have faith, whether it is on your loved ones or with things. if you believe in yourself then it can be also said that you have faith in yourself.
Comments
I want to post this in response to your questions, The world isnt perfect therefore imperfect things happen to us all weather i'm a preacher or a old lady or a young child who was born with Aids.....my personal believe is without bad things happening to us we will never learn, we will never change or be someone better than what we are....fire and forging makes the blade....it molds our charcter. I'm posting this from http://www.carm.org someone just like you ask the same question and here is there response.
Why is there evil and suffering in the world?
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
Amen brother
Simple: No
"It is easier to be cruel than wise. The road to wisdom is long and difficult... so most people just turn out to be assholes" Feng (Christopher Walken)
My question is more, why did God create evil and suffering. Not why did he allow it. The usual answer is that he created freewill which allows the free to choose to create the evil and suffering. To me the whole issue off freewill is intrinsically in conflict the omnipotence and omniscience of god. If everything is created by god and if god is everything how can god avoid the blame for the evil?
It is the paradox of can the omnipotent create something it can't affect. You assume that yes, it can as that is what freewill is outside of gods power therefore we are to blame.
These kind of paradoxes are the reason I can't see a point in having the faith in this kind of story.
I also can't see that there is any glory in this, or any reason to respect honor or worship a paradox. There is a much simpler way, that the story, the definitions are flawed (nothing omnipotent can actually exist, so no paradox) and there is a much more obvious and understandable explanation. Like we fear death, which is a good evolutionary trait, and as part of our social grooming behavior we ease each others fears by telling ourselves and each other that it will be all ok in the future, that there is nothing worry about and we should stop paralyzing ourselves with fear and get on with building stuff for ourselves and the community. We do this through the creation of stories "it’s OK, Daddy will look after you". Although Daddy is impossible to comprehend, paradoxical by definition, worthy of worship, blames you for all the evils in the world as you brought it on yourself but will look after your immaterial, immortal soul if you can accept his love.
There is only ONE difference between these two words:
ATHEIST, THEIST
Can YOU figure it out?
Here's "A" hint.
I seriously laugh whenever I see two groups with the same argument attempt to out debate each other, using supposed proofs and empirical logics.
Reach out and tap that fun house mirror in front of you would ya.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
I want to post this in response to your questions, The world isnt perfect therefore imperfect things happen to us all weather i'm a preacher or a old lady or a young child who was born with Aids.....my personal believe is without bad things happening to us we will never learn, we will never change or be someone better than what we are....fire and forging makes the blade....it molds our charcter. I'm posting this from http://www.carm.org someone just like you ask the same question and here is there response.
Why is there evil and suffering in the world?
The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.
Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.
God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.
Conclusion
Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.
Rarely have I seen such a long text that despite its length does not even answer the actual question it was asked.
I believe God is of spirit and therefore you must worship him in spirit, as the bible states
Joh 4:24 - God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Therefore our minds will never comprehend God....you have to use your heart that gut feeling of, there is something more in this world then what we see.
He gave place for evil and suffering for his glory but for our's as well, you see before i came to God i wasnt a feel good guy. I most likely would be in jail or hook on drugs becuase the way my life was going. It was suffering in my life that made me realize I cant go through this alone....my family abandon me, my friends no where to be found because what i did in my past made everyone reject me. That evil i done...that suffering i endure. i am not proud of it but i'm thankful for it because it mold me into a better man...That is my glory because now i'm better then i was before i'm happier, my family no longer rejects me....It's God's glory as well because he saved me when i was down in life when depression and suicide filled my "mind". I heard that gut feeling that tug at my heart and it was God pulling me into his glory....he gets my thanks everyday and he gets my praise. I know you cant understand God because this world cant understand God....God breaks us down at times (suffering) in order to rebuild us for his glory his purpose...We are use for his purpose weather it be writing in a forum or talking to someone in the work place, I'm here today because he gave me a new life....he made me into something new. If this wasnt true i wouldnt be so passionate so eager to share this story with you today. I cant tell you what to believe in all i could do is us my life as an example...If God didnt exist then who changed me?
You may still not understand why, sometimes its not meant for us to understand it fully...after all our minds can only comprehend so much, we can only see whats in front of us we cant see the future we dont see why we are in suffering but after the suffering we see the meaning of it......Look at a boxer....does a coach who's training a boxer shows love gentleness...NO! he throws heavy weights on his back he runs him until he almost faints he trains and trains him....to the point of breaking him. It is to prepare him for the fights ahead. The coach does this out of love and concern for the boxer's well being just as God does suffering out of love and our well being. I hope this answers your question, on why he allows suffering. I try to make it simple as possible so that all my understand. God bless and may this help you find the truth.
1Co 3:19 - For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness2Co 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
My old things which was the bad things, murder, theft, lying and so much more are gone...i'm new with Love, understanding (of God), patience....truth. These are me now, my newness.And people keep reciting these words froma book that a man has written and re-written over the years.. A book that a man has modified and altered over the years... Naive and mindlessness...
Has anyone ever wondered what this world would be like if everyones "religion" harbored self-sacrifice (as in suicide bombings and kamikaze tactics).. ALL you people would be doing the same thing those crazy mutha's over in iraq are doing to each other... Listen to yourselves... You do not follow those words because you think it is "good", you listen to them because you feel it is the "right" thing to do.. And who are we to judge "rights" and "wrongs?"
If that book told you that killing yourself in pursuit of an alternate motive was acceptable and the "right" thing to do, you'd all be running into buildings strapped with bombs... It's amazing how easy man is to manipulate.. even after ALL these years and ALL that has happened...
So.. essentially, there is suffering in the world because God allows it. Allowed for the purpose of recruiting followers.. Nice one God.
Sin is just religous way of saying 'I don't know or care why, but they sure as hell had it comin'. Please.
There's suffering because it's a crappy world, things go wrong.
don't mean to barge in here, but did someone say they had proof God didn't exist?
-I will subtlety invade your psyche-
there can be no proof as the definitions are ones that can't be proven or even tested.
I am glad you have become a better person through god. I am also glad you are happy to talk about it.
I do recognise the healing properties of god, as i recognise the healing properties of a placebo. Our minds and bodys are one in the same, our attidues and beliefs affect or wellbeing, our health affects our attitudes and beliefs.
What i have a problem with is when someone says i am a bad person and will suffer eternaly for my sins when I do my best to be a good person, i follow a very powerful but simple idea of "do unto others as you would have them do unto yourself", but i do not accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour. I respect humanity enough to believe they can come up with such a great idea for getting allong without divine intervention.
I also act on my gut when it comes to beliefs, to me there is a great joy in the world around me when i consider the great beauty that arises in it's incomprehensible complexity. I have dedicated my life to exploring the observable by becoming a scientist. It is great fun, there are always surprises.
I am happy to partake of the 'spirit' of a place, the sence of presence that an old forest has or that a grand cathedral has, however i do not believe that that spirit is anything more than a reflection of my identity as a social animal, my need to define my self from others. A seperation and modeling of others behaviour in order to survive and prosper in a social network. A need to recognise the separation of individuals. A society needs individuals individuals need society they are a dependant structure.
This need and structure within a social system can have echos that are easily seen in things that are not actually even alive. I have a very active imagination, i can easily imagine that even a simple rock has a spirit, an individuality that is crying out to be recognised. However that imagined structure can not be tested, so while enjoyable it is not useful, except as part of my wellbeing.
this is the category that i put the immortal soul and god in. they are nothing more than a construction of humanity for the sake of individual wellbeing. There is plenty of evidence to support that as we tell lots of creative stories, some which are paradoxical in nature like these things.
Basicly i recognise that religion can be a good thing, but like all human creations can also be a bad thing.
Its very interesting what everyone's comments are about this question....but i have another question what happens to us after we die? If in fact nothing, we just seize to exist. I believe that is pretty sad and if you really think about it, whats the point of living? if in the end you're just nothing but bones in the ground? I know some of you may say its what you do while your alive that makes it worth while but think about it why even try to be good or get ahead in life when tomorrow you walk down the street and get hit by a careless driver on the cell phone....all that effort to make a better life for yourself down the drain. Why bother to begin with? I guess its just something to waste our life/time on before we become nothing.
Personally i don't like the idea of death, i decide when i want to die and i don't accept things like faith or god that decide for me. What happens after death who knows? never been there before, and I doubt people who are dead will say, "this place is great, you should all be here"
I don't know why i'm here don't know why i'm alive, and frankly i don't care, maybe i should go into politics and try to change the world.
And perhaps you already did something in live that effected another live, a live that can make a minor change that will result into a big change. For Example, someone trows a can into the sea, it get picked up by a bird, who fly's over a airplane dropping the can into the engine of the plane, making the plane explode, killing a candidate for president, making the other candidate president who deicides that more money needs to go to education, giving a poor lad the chance to go to college where he creates an international star gate that allows us to travel from point A to point B in a few seconds regardless of the distance between it.
I don't remember anyone talking about "proof"....
But if you really want to go there, give me proof that there is only one god.
Why not thousands or even milliions of gods?
Atheism is about skepticism. We affirm that there is no proof that god exists and therefore assume that it doesn't until proven otherwise.
Good luck with that.
If not us, then who are you to call those suicide bombers "crazy muthas"? As im sure, hope, you feel that murder in the name of religion is "wrong" well atleast that seems to be one of your main points. Who are you to say that murder is wrong? Hopefully your answer is 'a rational human being' just like myself or the BILLIONS of other religious people out there.
The fact of the matter is that no where in the Quran, or The Bible or any respectful religious documents does it say that self-sacrifice on that level is necessary, only the extrapolation of evil mens ideals creates that thought.
If religion was inherently evil that would make the near majority of the population are inherently evil. Which, by observation, is obviously incorrect.
Plus there is the study that i posted in my previous post n the thread that shows that religous people are statistically more tolerant than athiests/agnostics. This is yet another proven benefit to religious pursuits.
I dont hear anyone saying that most terrorists have dark hair, therefore dark hair must be evil? So why is religion your scape goat?
But above all, the fact of the matter is The Book does not tell me to strap a bomb to my chest, if it did, i would not follow it. Compassion, Caring and Love above ALL.
And guess what my fair "wise" one.. Yea.. Never did I say it was "wrong" or "right".. You took it upon YOURSELF to determine the meaning of "crazy muthas".. So before you leap from your dictionary stance in attack mode lets realize the facts.. A crazy mutha is not a "bad" or "wrong" person.. Shit, I am a CRAZY MUTHA.. And so is anyone else who I deem crazy and a mutha.. So, to combat your just weaponry, i'll say this..
Despite what you may think, having a religion and believing in a god is not the ONLY way to appear "good" or "evil".. It is soley up to the human being at heart to determing there OWN sets of rights and wrongs.. You shouldn't sit here and point to the book declaring it "truth" about who shall be considered "good" and who shall be considered "bad".. Want to know my honest opinion of those religious terrorist in Middle east as well as practically ANYONE who lets a book dictate their opinions... They are not "BAD" people, they are very gullible and MIS-INFORMED people...
Take it for what you want, but you cannot prove what you preach bro.. And I know you are going to attack me with "well I can't prove it either." Well exactly, but there I am not endorsing a book to back my claims either! So for me to have to prove myself is moot compared to your ramblings about a book and its code. So while you ramble we ask that you sumbit to us your unyeilding proof or such existance and why these "rules" and "codes" are worth any sort of attention..
As for the rational thought of religious murder, YES.. I (note, ME, not a code or book) think that murder commited in the name of a "religion" is WRONG.. Yes I said it.. I am not going by any codes when I say this, this is me and my own opnion, so I need not recite to you any scriptures and poems to back this and make it seem like solemn words of so called "virtue".. I believe in the eye for an eye system of life and death, and while I am NOT an ANARCHIST, there are some laws that seem to cross moral barriers and seem to have been aided by religion (adultery for example)...
Heed this quote, and try to understand why this man was a very rational being:
"In truth, there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. "
Friedrich Nietzsche From this day foward, I will embrace the faith of VYETHISM!Time to write some books and get some followers!I beleive in a God. Some personal experiences I have had, lead me to this. That is'nt to say I have very much faith. I beleive, everything that is, has existed in many states, and at some point, all that was, became self aware. How? I havent a clue.
Is this concious being, Benevolent? I beleive so. How did this being become Benevolent, I have no idea.
I can only surmise that time, and logic, played some role in this. But really, I have no idea.
I also beleive, that mankid, is not capable of understanding, even a fraction of truith, beyond what can be seen, examined, taken apart, put back together, and finally destroyed, for nothing more than purposes of asimilation.
We want to be important I guess. We want to be right, I guess. We want to feel secure in our lives, and even our death, I guess.
However, for all the debate, both for, and against, God. We are still, as a specis, murdering creatures, who ought to know beter. A little Benevolence, would seem in order, on our part, while we yet exist, as a specis.
Specis preservation being the first instinct, you see. And Balance being oh so very crucial, for a planet revolving around a star. As Im told, these two have been accepted as fact.
So in the question of God, perhaps we may want to do what we can about our disposition. And let God go on being whatever, God is. Who knows, a little balance, and some specis preservation, we may exist long enough, to be of some benefit, to "A" God. If nothing more than to give this benevolent being, a little joy... without a price tag.
As for Religion, which gets thrown into God topics. I think that, within the heart of man kind, there exists a curious need to destroy, and that we will use any excuse, to do it. Be it a doctrin, or even just un requited expectations.
Sorry for the poor spelling.
Truce..
Personally i don't like the idea of death, i decide when i want to die and i don't accept things like faith or god that decide for me. What happens after death who knows? never been there before, and I doubt people who are dead will say, "this place is great, you should all be here"
I don't know why i'm here don't know why i'm alive, and frankly i don't care, maybe i should go into politics and try to change the world.
And perhaps you already did something in live that effected another live, a live that can make a minor change that will result into a big change. For Example, someone trows a can into the sea, it get picked up by a bird, who fly's over a airplane dropping the can into the engine of the plane, making the plane explode, killing a candidate for president, making the other candidate president who deicides that more money needs to go to education, giving a poor lad the chance to go to college where he creates an international star gate that allows us to travel from point A to point B in a few seconds regardless of the distance between it.
I can see your point however it contradicts itself if your really think about it...look at the parts highlighted in yellow "i decide when i want to die and don't accept things like faith or god that decide for me." but yet you make a story that clearly shows that you don't have control over when you want to die. If you really think about it believeing in something that has no proof is a sign of faith and you my friend have faith..
even if its not faith in a God.
i agree with krazyblade, believing in something even if it is not god then u surely have faith, whether it is on your loved ones or with things. if you believe in yourself then it can be also said that you have faith in yourself.