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If SWG is so bad NOW, what made it so good in the past?
TheHavok
Member UncommonPosts: 2,423
First off, im not trying to hate on SWG at all, past and present form. I simple just want to know what made star wars galaxies such a great came back in the day before the CU and NGE. I played the trial for 2 weeks a couple of months after it was released but i didn't get a good feel for the game. So please, explain to me what the old SWG was like.
Comments
- Lots, and I mean LOTS, of players. Enough that we had servers rivalling each other.
- 32 professions and the freedom to mix and match.
- A skilling system where doing specific things granted specific xp. And the social aspect of teaching people skills.
- A player-driven and player-run economy. Everything would break down and replaced, crafters and crafting mattered.
- No Instant Travel. We waited at shuttleports. And in that time we meet a lot of people, made friends.
- Bustling capital and player cities. And then the massive PVPs of one guild attacking another's city.
Though these are just but a few of the things that seperates NGE from Pre-CU, there are a whole lot more that I'm sure other people will post up
"There's one MMO developer that doesn't want the money put in front of them - SOE"
Well here is my summation of it. A lot more classes to play ( broken though they may of been ) A more populated game with not that much content. The NGE to me is the exact opposite. Less more simplified classes to play. A lot more content with less people playing. So I guess for me the best part of pre NGE was the people that you met along the way.
FREEDOM.
You had choice. You didn't have a class, a level, a restriction. You could do whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted.
You NEEDED to socialize with other players. Doctors had lines 100 people long waiting for buffs. Entertainers had danced and played music for hundreds of people...
Pre-CU SWG offered something that no game today offers, FREEDOM.
Tecmo Bowl.
.....looking back at it through rose colored glasses.
Pre-cu and pre-nge SWG was one of those situations where you just don't know how great you have it until it's gone. As others before me have posted, SWG had freedom; where you could socialize, solo grind mobs, group with some friends and tackle harder areas, build a player city, discover lots of in-depth crafting professions, and otherwise play the game to your own style, whether that be solo or with a group.
What SWG failed at was creating content. In the era of wow, it's hard to compare SWG with the content offered in today's MMO landscape, and the lack of content (read - more dungeons and new mobs to kill) was what made people move from SWG to WOW. If SWG could have only created more content, the game would still be thriving today. This is not to say that the dev team didn't try; but I would argue that they simply bit off more then then could chew when it came to creating content in such a gigantic world.
In the end, people still dream about the SWG that could have been rather then the SWG that was, despite the fact that the SWG that was is still better then the vast majority of games on the market today. We simply didn't know it at the time. Now we've lost what made SWG into such a unique and spectacular sandbox game.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. SWG was way ahead of its time. The future of MMOs is an expansion of what SWG was. I hope that makes some sense.
"where you could socialize, solo grind mobs, group with some friends and tackle harder areas, build a player city, discover lots of in-depth crafting professions, and otherwise play the game to your own style, whether that be solo or with a group."
IMHO, yes there is a fundamental mechanical difference in the SWG of today vs the SWG of yesterday but what most old timers seem to miss is that intangable "something" that was mainly created by the community itself. Most of the base features are still there.
Nothing prevents anyone from socializing today any more then the merciless Bol grind did before NGE. You are still able to solo and you are still able to group. These basic elements have not changed. Crafting is still far above any other MMO and the amount of features like housing, space, player cities and gameworld size are still without equal. IMHO what effected the cranky vets of today the most is the removal of the profession system. When you really look at the "classes" of today, they are more or less "profession packages" of pre-NGE. (of which many of those 32 professions where never up to par, working or fleshed out) IF SWG added a few more "classes" to fill those missing gaps from the old profession system you would basically be back to square one as you still have the basic freedom to change classes unlike most other MMOs.
SWG of any era is still far more then most MMO's of today. What SWG is mainly the victim of is unfocused development from the start and very bad management desicions.
The smart thing would have been to do what you said from the start, work with what they had but they didn't and thats not going to change.
I'll sum this up easily, 32 professions and use to be skill based.
1) Large maps of diverse locations/planets.
2) Multiple 'vectors' for socialization: "grouping", entertaining, crafting, travel (with Jump to Lightspeed), player city 'politics', and so on.
These two things I think made the most of the positive aspects of online games, but the rest were either broken or unbalanced. Other than that, there wasn't really anything magical about the game, other than the two particular features I reference.
-- Brede
One of the issues most players had with pre-CU SWG were buffs. You could essentially inflate your health, action, and mind bars (as well as all secondary stats) to the point that it negated the elegance of the combat system and encumberance system.
If one were to play pre-CU SWG without buffs the game took on an incredible dynamic that I've not seen in any other game.
No attempt was every made to address that issue even though players raised it time and time again.
I actually really enjoyed the buffing system. It made death in pvp somewhat matter
"where you could socialize, solo grind mobs, group with some friends and tackle harder areas, build a player city, discover lots of in-depth crafting professions, and otherwise play the game to your own style, whether that be solo or with a group."
IMHO, yes there is a fundamental mechanical difference in the SWG of today vs the SWG of yesterday but what most old timers seem to miss is that intangable "something" that was mainly created by the community itself. Most of the base features are still there.
Nothing prevents anyone from socializing today any more then the merciless Bol grind did before NGE. You are still able to solo and you are still able to group. These basic elements have not changed. Crafting is still far above any other MMO and the amount of features like housing, space, player cities and gameworld size are still without equal. IMHO what effected the cranky vets of today the most is the removal of the profession system. When you really look at the "classes" of today, they are more or less "profession packages" of pre-NGE. (of which many of those 32 professions where never up to par, working or fleshed out) IF SWG added a few more "classes" to fill those missing gaps from the old profession system you would basically be back to square one as you still have the basic freedom to change classes unlike most other MMOs.
SWG of any era is still far more then most MMO's of today. What SWG is mainly the victim of is unfocused development from the start and very bad management desicions.
The smart thing would have been to do what you said from the start, work with what they had but they didn't and thats not going to change.
Oh really Torak? Most of the base features are still there?
So I can log on to my Master Fencer/Pistoleer hybrid? I can log on and play with my TKM?
So to sit here and say all the base features are still there is a joke. What about all the cool combat animations? Gone. Skill-based system? Gone. 32 professions? Gone. Player-driven economy? Gone.
What is it now? Hmmm, it's a level/class-based game that does a bad job ripping off WoW. Economy is inflated and really unnecessary as the game is a loot-based economy now.
Let's see. 5 years later Smuggler STILL has no fix. Jedi are WORSE than they were in Pre-CU. The combat is WORSE than it was Pre-CU...
Pre-CU needed content but was a great virtual world with lots and lots of potential.
For some reason you troll there threads and bash Pre-CU SWG, which is fine. But considering you play Lineage II, the grindfests of all grindfests, it makes sense that Pre-CU SWG wasn't for you. The NGE requires you to read MUCH less...
Tecmo Bowl.
"where you could socialize, solo grind mobs, group with some friends and tackle harder areas, build a player city, discover lots of in-depth crafting professions, and otherwise play the game to your own style, whether that be solo or with a group."
IMHO, yes there is a fundamental mechanical difference in the SWG of today vs the SWG of yesterday but what most old timers seem to miss is that intangable "something" that was mainly created by the community itself. Most of the base features are still there.
Nothing prevents anyone from socializing today any more then the merciless Bol grind did before NGE. You are still able to solo and you are still able to group. These basic elements have not changed. Crafting is still far above any other MMO and the amount of features like housing, space, player cities and gameworld size are still without equal. IMHO what effected the cranky vets of today the most is the removal of the profession system. When you really look at the "classes" of today, they are more or less "profession packages" of pre-NGE. (of which many of those 32 professions where never up to par, working or fleshed out) IF SWG added a few more "classes" to fill those missing gaps from the old profession system you would basically be back to square one as you still have the basic freedom to change classes unlike most other MMOs.
SWG of any era is still far more then most MMO's of today. What SWG is mainly the victim of is unfocused development from the start and very bad management desicions.
The smart thing would have been to do what you said from the start, work with what they had but they didn't and thats not going to change.
Oh really Torak? Most of the base features are still there?
So I can log on to my Master Fencer/Pistoleer hybrid? I can log on and play with my TKM?
So to sit here and say all the base features are still there is a joke. What about all the cool combat animations? Gone. Skill-based system? Gone. 32 professions? Gone. Player-driven economy? Gone.
What is it now? Hmmm, it's a level/class-based game that does a bad job ripping off WoW. Economy is inflated and really unnecessary as the game is a loot-based economy now.
Let's see. 5 years later Smuggler STILL has no fix. Jedi are WORSE than they were in Pre-CU. The combat is WORSE than it was Pre-CU...
Pre-CU needed content but was a great virtual world with lots and lots of potential.
For some reason you troll there threads and bash Pre-CU SWG, which is fine. But considering you play Lineage II, the grindfests of all grindfests, it makes sense that Pre-CU SWG wasn't for you. The NGE requires you to read MUCH less...
Sigh....see what I mean?
Here, post on this thread. I want to open this up on a few fronts and leave you hanging because you vets are easily baited.
Oooo..and personal attacks, how cozy...I am flattered you try to keep up on my game subscriptions but alas, I haven't played L2 in a very long time. Maybe you could guess again in another inflamitory attack on me in an attempt to show how mature and superior the SWG vet really is.
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/175753/page/2
It's so bad because they havn't tried it in 3 years
Account has been stolen, why would someone want to steal my account?
I actually really enjoyed the buffing system. It made death in pvp somewhat matter
Don't get me wrong, I kinda liked buffs to.
But again, it negated the combat system. The forums were filled with good ideas on how to address it in a meaningful way that was accpetable to everyone but as usual all ideas were ignored.
For me SWG with all its problems once had something that I find missing in most other games….The many varieties and depth of tools that let a great community build its own world. It was the people that made SWG, they crafted multitudes of complex items, artistic creations were amazing, they built and ran the towns and guilds, and they fought, hunted and entertained together.
The sense of achievement after people had invested so much time and effort was something to be proud of…….So when the Gods decided and the great change came it is not surprising that people felt betrayed and there world torn apart…because it had been!!! There must be some drug in the sands because I have to return to those fallen worlds from time to time.
Often you hear people talking about other games such as Everquest, UO and DOAC with as much passion. I do think those first games offered so much more even if in some cases it was executed badly...It would also be extremely hard for a "new" player to go into those games now and capture what there once was.
Wow arrived and millions joined the gaming world, many had never experienced the strength and closeness of those previous communities, but the Wow world was nigh on perfect in its simplicity and great fun to play. But with a huge mass of people came beggars in the towns and changed communities and even those perfect worlds can become tedious.
The odd thing is you often hear many an ex- Wow players, having played the game for a while dismiss it as boring...So what happened to all those fun memories and loyalty to a world they had been part of!
Personally I thought it sucked hard. At release there was no dungeons or loot...you had to craft everything. If you wanted pets, you had to faction grind like crazy. Wow what fun. It was cool to explore for a bit but then the tediousness of the game became apparent. And of course, if you wanted to be a jedi you had to grind unbelievably...
I'm assuming you mean faction pets?
Cause Creature Handler was an incredible profession, and had nothing to do with "faction grinding".
And if that was the case then I don't really see what the problem was for getting faction pets. I'd cap my faction points so regularily that I'd buy crap so I didn't feel it was going to waste.
SWG was more of a Sim style MMO, SOE turned it into more of an MMO by removing allot of the sandbox aspects. De-Raphing it as I once heard Jeff Freeman call it. Once those fun aspects were pulled, it left a hollow shell, the piece of crap you see now.
Faction grind? If you wanted pets you had to be a "Creature Handler" or a "BioEngineer"... You clearly didn't understand the game you were playing.
Tecmo Bowl.
Sam I used my trial last week and the week before that. Don't tell me we haven't played in years, I played less than 7 days ago. The game still sucks as bad as it did in December of 2005 after the NGE went live.
Tecmo Bowl.
Praxus, you accurately point out what the game was missing which was a large part of why it never really took off past the initial surge of players joining the game the first few months. Enough of which made it the fastest selling MMO to its date.
To the Original Poster, the game design in its core was brilliant. The game gently encouraged people to interact and form social bonds. Through cantinas/hospitals (battle/combat fatigue), factions, player made camps and even shuttle port waits the game had a very strong community that was very much a design choice by the devs. The player housing was excellent and cities (even though they were implemented in bandaid fashion) could have been spectacular for the community if NPC cities didn't remain premium play areas. The free form class mechanics were awesome which offered complete player freedom to customize their character the way they wanted, not some cookie cutter. The graphics were good also (I still think they look good). The crafting was simply the best I have ever seen and it alone was worth playing the game for if nothing else. Each planet was huge in size with interesting point of interest (before they made them waypoints and removed any need to explore, big golfclap to SOE for that). Almost everything in the game was a well design concept despite how it might have actually functioned in the game.
The problem was that nothing was finished, balanced or tested. Every professions tree had missing and broken skills/items. There was little to do in the game that didn't involve interacting with other players. If SWG had stayed in development for __insert speculated timeframe__ then it would not have needed to be submitted to 2 complete overhauls and the game might have just been the one that blew the MMO market off its hinges like WoW. Sadly some corporate asshat pulled the trigger to force the release of the game and nothing worked and I do mean nothing.
SWG was brilliant, fresh and fun all the while being horrible, broken and not worth playing at the same time. This was also still the era when MMO players were accustomed to buying unfinished games and payed for months while they get fixed.
Personally I didn't like buff lines and jedi grinds. By the time they introduced holocrons the design team had lost all focus on the game and went into complete damage prevention mode. Every change they made was a bandaid fix that gave short term relief at the expense of long term health for the game and here we are 5 years later.
Torak, I'm not insulting you, unless me saying you play Lineage II is an insult. IF you do enjoy that game it means you must not mind extensive grinding...
That shouldn't be insulting to you. : )
Tecmo Bowl.
LoL, I did play L2 for about a year and you do need to brain damaged to grind like that....sort of reminded me of Bol grinding.
LoL, I did play L2 for about a year and you do need to brain damaged to grind like that....sort of reminded me of Bol grinding.
Haha! I knew it! : )
Tecmo Bowl.