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CoH vs. CoV
Gabrion2
Member Posts: 55
I'm about to start playing CoX and while I'm sure folks around here have seen more than enough discussions about CoH vs. CoV, I'd like to get some input comparing the two.
I am not just asking people to express their personal preference although I understand some of my questions require that. I would like to know what the relevant differences are in gameplay. From the get go I can see that the different ATs are a major difference. Beyond that though, I'm wondering:
-Are missions in this game exclusive to one side or the other, and if so does one have more (or higher quality) missions?
-Are there geographical limitations to being one side vs the other, and if so, does either side have an advantage?
-Are the in-game resources accessed through NPCs (I'm assuming there have to be stores, rewards, etc) different for each side and if so does one have an advantage?
-Are there any extremely compelling storylines that I would miss out on by being one side or the other, and if so are they fairly evenly balanced?
Ultimately I'm guessing I will end up playing for whichever side seems like more fun, but it would be nice to know just in case the game is heavily tilted toward one side or the other. Thanks for any help!
Comments
Admittedly, it's been a while since I played, but here's what I remember about the two:
There's more running around in CoH than there is in CoV. In other words, in CoV, most of my missions kept me in the same zone as my contacts. In CoH, I found myself contantly running to one zone to get missions and then back over 3 zones to actually do the missions. It was very annoying.
CoH ATs seemed to be more suited for teamplay than CoV's. While I felt like I could solo about any AT in either game, the CoV ATs seemed to be designed to solo better. That could have been me, but it certainly felt that way.
CoH Patron Powers are better than CoV Patron Powers. At least they were when I played.
I know they're introducing an Epic Villain AT, but for the longest time, only CoH had an Epic AT.
The CoV zones can be depressing and bland when compared to the CoH world. CoH is much more colorful and upbeat/sunny.
That's about all I can remember off hand. Both sides have some great missions and you're going to miss them either way you go.
Hi there. CoX is still doing pretty well. It's got its niche. To answer your questions:
- Yes, the vast majority of missions are exclusive to one side. Heroes do heroic missions and villains do significantly less heroic missions. I find that heroes tend to have way more missions, having been around longer, but villains have more quality missions, as most were made more recently.
- I'm not sure what you mean by geographical limitations.
- Stores and the like are all basically the same for heroes and villains, though heroes tend to run the epic stuff more often (at least on the Virtue server), and have easier epic stuff to do, and so their market tends to have more goodies readily available.
- Both sides have very compelling story lines. Note that the majority of people tend to play heroes.
Hope this helps.
I guess I was under the impression that CoH and CoX take place in the same game world. Is this not the case? Are Paragon City and the Islands totally different environments that don't overlap at all? By geographical limitations I meant (assuming there was some crossover) does either side have exclusive geographical areas that are better than the other side?
The PvP zones and Rikti Warzone are the only shared zones. Everything else is seperate, ie, you won't see a villian on the hero zones.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Both sides exist in the same universe, but Heroes cannot go to the regions of the Rogue Isles and Villains cannot go to the Regions of Paragon City. Paragon City is significantly larger than the Rogue Isles, it has far more zones. The Rogue Isles are quite linear in their progression and as mentioned earlier you pretty much stay in one area. I've started playing my Scrapper again (level 40) and I've been to more zones in the past 2 weeks doing missions than Rogue Isles has combined.
When CoV was made they more or less listened to some of the major complaints from people playing CoH, traveling all over BFE for a single mission was nuked in CoV because CoH players didn't like it. More "solo"-ability in CoV because that was something CoH players wanted.
There are less zones for villians, but over all you get the same amount of missions, more zones doesn't mean better game. It is more linear yes, but in CoH at least on pinnacle and freedom there are some areas that are always vacant like Faultline and,, uhh, the zone that's infested with all the pantheon of the lost, can't remember it. So all those extra zones are more often than not empty so why bother even counting them.
You get story arc missions more often in villians than you do in heros, or so it seems to me.
In a nutshell, CoV was designed to fix the flaws in the overall game of CoH.
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If you like pet classes, Masterminds are CoV only.
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Controllers are the same as Dominators on the Heroes side again obtaining the pet at 32 unless you're an Illusion Troller which you get Phantom Army at 18.
Hope it helps !
Firstly, you should know that most people play both sides. In fact, most people have many alts in this game - so many that the 12 slots per server were deemed "not enough" and with the new issue release up to 36 per server will be possible.
So the idea that you need to pick one side is a little flawed. You should play whatever jumps out at you, and switch whenever you feel like it.
You're absolutely right on the ATs, those make a big difference in play style even without switching sides.
Here are the facts (with a little bit of "consensus" thrown in and not much of my opinion since I play everything.
That's all that springs to mind at the moment. As I said a lot of it comes from the fact that they already had 1.5 years of live experience before Villains was released. To me, there's a visible difference (improvement) in how each successive bit of contact was designed, as they learned to be more intricate and interactive. So villains has that, but it has also been 2.5 years since CoV came out so all that new content tends to wash it over.
You sound fairly knowledgeable, have you already played a trial? If not, you should pick up a trial code (PM me if you need one) before installing the main game. Even if you're sure you want it, why not add two weeks on free?
And of course, feel free to ask any other questions.
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Well actually I bought the Good vs. Evil version last night and started playing. Now that I understand how different CoV and COH are (I had it in my mind it would be more like the Alliance and Horde in WoW having access to the same missions etc.) I can see that I won't be satisfied limiting myself to playing one side.
I haven't played a trial before, but I've done enough hoping from one MMO to the next to have a decent idea what to look for. Or at the very least, I've gotten into the habit of doing some research before jumping in head first.
So far CoX has actually been an eye opener. Like I said, I try a lot of new games, and for the most part within and hour of entering a new MMO I'm already in the mindset of "ok how do I min/max my abilities and where do I get good loot?" I can honestly say after playing for several hours last night that those types of thoughts didn't even enter my mind - I was a Nurv Damage the scientist fighting evil with mind control and radioactive inventions! Here's to hoping that the immersion factor can hold out - I've really been looking for a game that made me want play it because its fun rather than just grind for whatever.
I've been playing for years and to be honest, you will feel some grind. When that happens, step back. There has been those times when I felt the grind. I stopped playing, giving my SG a heads up on that and after a month or so, I'd get the itch again to bash guys.
One think I really enjoy is that I can hop on for 10 min, bash some guys with friends or alone and even if I didn't "Ding" I had fun.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
You dont have to hop zones. I just get on in CoH and join a team and start doing radio missions. While this is grinding becuase im in a group of 5+ people its not bad and I enjoy it.
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heroes is the favorite son and villains is the red-headed stepchild. 80% (or more) of the new content villain side has been via co-operative zones.
if red side was a stand alone game, it'd have shut it's doors a long time ago, it has been THAT ignored.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I didn't take the time to read the last few but heres my opinion
the City of games are so good, I'm thinking of rejoining. Yes, REjoining. I quit for the only reason I really quit an MMO
I couldn't stick with one character (or find the right character for me) No one would really help me, just kinda make suggestions. If you need help finding the right character (and don't know much of the AT) go to Quizilla.com and search City of Heroes (or villains) to help you choose one. I know it's not very reliable, but you could try it if you get stuck.
So, things to remember
1. Make sure to have a bunch of friends to hang out with, because if your like me, you might get bored just soloing
2. If you feel like your getting bored with your character, don't worry, it's not a race, just have fun, see if people need help, everyone appreciates help.
3. Unlike me, make sure you have people to help you find the character you think best fits, and if you can do it in less than 18 months, you beat me =P
4. NEVER delete your account if you wanna leave, because you might regret it(but seeing all the help your getting, I t hink you'll stick with this game for a LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG time.)
5. You might want to have an alt, just so you don't feel restricted to one character, but again if your like me (which I hope your not) you'll get bored of your other characters because you know there not gonna last lol
Anyways, have fun, it's a great game, I know you'll enjoy it ^.^
Thanks again for all the input guys!
I must have played half a dozen character up to level 10 (including DB/Regen Scrapper, Cold/Cold blaster, Mind/Rad Troller, and Earth/SS Troller) before finally settling on an Illusion/SS controller.
What I like so far is a feeling of accomplishment as I level - it's really tough to start out with only one or two powers, but it makes it all that much more fun when one is unlocked! When I got Phantom Army at level 18 I was so excited. Then at 20 I got my cape (the mission for that was annoying though), which was double cool.
Grinding through radio missions is a bit of a drag solo, but I learned from WoW that judging the game by what you do while leveling isn't that great of an idea. In that game everything is about what you do when you're capped - is there a lot of "endgame content" in CoX? I'm not saying I'm just gonna "put up with" the low level stuff till later (if I had to do that I probably wouldn't play), but rather that I accept the recycled maps and such under the assuption that a lot of the development efforts go to making dynamic content for the higher levels. Is this accurate?
Oh ya I almost forgot - IOs are the way to go! I bought training origin enhancements for a long time, and even bothered with DOs some in the teens before realizing how good IOs are. For instance one level 20 accuracy IO enhancement gives a 25% boost, which is enough to make powers with 75% accuracy hit all the time (unless I misunderstand this). At first I thought they were expensive, but given they are better than even SOs of higher levels (again I hope I haven't read something wrong), I think the length of use you can get out of them makes the cost worthwhile.
Unfortunatly, the "end game" for CoX is lacking. As a level 50, you can PvP in both base raids and in the PvP zones. There is also the hunt for the Purple IO sets to "pimp your toon"
In my Supergroup, I've used my level 50 for base raids, PvP zones, farming for purples and to help out other lower level team members.
The higher end missions take you to different tilesets that are not available at lower levels. You will be fighting Arch Villians who are more powerful than Elite Bosses but not as powerful as Giant Monsters. You will also see some of the same tilesets "spoofed up" but in essance the same. I still have a lot of fun with alts and base raids. I've found that a good SG or a core set of friends makes a huge difference in burnout. Your milage may vary.
Regarding IO: I would not go out of my way to buy IO till after level 32. At level 32, you can slot level 35 IO. Level 35 IO and above perform better than SO. If you have the material and the recipe, go ahead and make an IO that is less than 35, but as soon as you ding 32, I'd suggest a respec, sell your enhancements and start slotting level 35+ IO.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
CoH levels slowr and puts more emphasis on alts. (Heck, a big feature of i12 is purely about the alts you can make.) For a long time the answer "what do I do at 50" in CoX was "make another character." And to be fair, it's a good answer. Characters can play very differently, as you may have already gathered. I found that alts in WoW didn't give me nearly the experience there that they do here.
Recently (by which I mean maybe 18 months ago) they started adding more and more to the endgame, because players wanted it. So there are definitely more things to do at 50. But it's not a transformative experience. In a lot of ways it's similar to what you're doing all the way up, maybe just a tad more difficult.
In fact, of the "50 content" I could list, a great deal of it can be done as early as level 35. None of it requires you being higher than 45 (unless the team demands it).
So I would urge you to not grind, and not level as fast as possible, in the hopes that it will change later. Truthfully, one of the 50+ benefits they added last fall was Ouroboros, a zone almost entirely devoted to helping you go back to content you missed. Which you can certainly do, but I'd advise you not to miss all of it the first time.
Rather than do mostly radios, I would try to do story arcs and follow what happens. That's where the unique tilesets and other interesting stuff is going to happen anyway. Faultline (15-25) is rather new and has some fun stuff, including maps on earthquake-affected zones where the entire floor is angled and roofs are caving in.
Striga was sort of the wakeup to a new generation, it's 25-30 with 4 story arcs and 2 TFs. It's a very well designed zone and doing the arcs takes you through it.
Croatoa is a different theme but again an improvement (25-35). Some of the enemies are particularly challenging, but the TF at the end of the 4 arcs is fun.
Rikti War Zone and Cimerora (coming soon) I would save for 50 I think. You can do them at 35, but why not save it?
Meanwhile, the main zones have their own arcs, some of which give some nice temp power effects. I particularly like some of the Freakshow arcs, and the council have some interesting stories.
So I would look to join teams, but try to see if you can get your own arcs done too. If you skip the stories, then you're turning it into more of a grind than it has to be. Also, if you get a chance start getting involved in TFs. They tend to be better than average teams, with Arch-Villains to beat at the end and some of the better potential for unique content.
You sort of do (misunderstand).It's a multiplicative 25% boost. So you have 75% to hit time 1.25% with that boost = 0.9375. Now the cap is 95%, so that looks good. However, that is only against an even-level enemy with no defense. Against a +2 guy with just 5% defense, it's closer to .56 * 1.25 = 70%. So you still miss a lot.
And eventually it becomes common to fight +2 and +3 all the time, with frequent acc debuffs or defense. So prepare to still miss a bit if you only rely on that 25% boost.
To see this for yourself, try checking out your Combat tab a bit. It will say "you needed an 88 to hit and rolled a 33.5. Hit!" (Low rolls are better.)
That said, there are some deals with the IOs if you understand the system. The basic enhancement structure goes:
Training: 9%
Double Origin: 18%
Single Origin: 36%
And of course single Origins are where the magic happens. Now a level 20 IO is better than a DO, but at 22 if you can afford it, SOs are still mighty.
I try to switch over to IO sets in the early 30s, because around then they are comparable to SOs. It can get expensive, but not having to replace them every 5 levels is handy.
That said, what you can do at level 20 if you're clever is something like this:
Level 23 IO: Salvo Acc/Damage
18.45% Accuracy, 18.45% Damage
Level 23 IO: Volley Fire Acc/Damage
18.45% Accuracy, 18.45% Damage
Put two of those together in 1 power, and you have 37% accuracy and 37% damage out of 2 slots, which is as good as SOs would be. And they never need replacing.
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Responses in orange.
Once again I want to thank you for the feedback and I want to clarify that despite some of my comments I'm not just complaining about this game. There are some aspects I really like.
Making alts is still cool, if a bit frustrating since I want to see what they are capable of, which obviously takes some time (and which is my real motivation for leveling quickly...I want to see what doors are opened).
Taking a break from the good guys to play on evil side is also a lot of fun (although I haven't done this a ton yet). I didn't realize before playing (hence the beginning of this thread) that they are two totally different games.
For being an old game, I actually really enjoy the visuals. The characters look good and obviously have a high degree of customization, which is far better than uber graphics combined with random armor looks. The power effects also are mostly very cool from what I've seen so far.
My favorite part so far though the many ways the game adjusts to let you play with friends. What I mean is that an instance makes itself a little more difficult if you duo, but doesn't make it as hard as it would be for eight. In many games the instances are static. The other half of this is the sidekick system, which lets me and a friend play together even if we aren't close in levels. This beats the pants off of games where you just send tells to your friends saying "hurry up and level so you can come play in this zone!" Sidekicking is cool. Its too bad exemplaring is a waste of time though...I still don't understand that.
Anyway, thanks again for all the feedback and more is always welcome!
What about graphics? Wikipedia says CoV has "Sharper and more detailed graphics, ragdoll physics, and other visual improvements." Did they ever improve the graphics of CoH to match CoV?
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The advantage of Exemplar is that you can get more Inf instead of XP. Also allows you have a bit of challenge when helping out a friend who is lower than you, gets you some extra inf and avoids the WoW approach where you have a level 70 running a group of people through Deadmines. Boring for the group and the level 70.
right now I've got a level 55 on WoW that is trying to catch up with the rest of the guild. I hate it, no one groups with you outside your level. On another server I've got a small group of friends that I play with that we are trying to not outlevel each other so we can group up.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Wow, my apologies to the OP, Gabrion2. I totally missed your response a month ago, and I'm sure it's all moot right now.
Regarding story lines, you're right in that if you don't care to follow the story, the missions will be the same as scanner/newspaper but with less variation. It's kind of a shame.
There are exceptions. The Faultline arcs are nice, with bonuses like NPCs to help you out and several Elite Bosses / Arch Villains. Several of them have unique tilesets. And they aren't that long.
But you make a good point, and one that has been made repeatedly since the game came out. There just isn't that much customization / variation among the missions.
Regarding combat, I fear that you have found the wrong teams somewhat. Or perhaps the right people at the wrong time. It's been my observation that player behavior goes like this:
Stage 1) I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going to follow everyone else, hit some buttons that look good, and hope I help.
Stage 2) The tank stands there. The blasters stand there. These defenders do this and that at exactly this time. Always.
Stage 3) There are lots of mixable plans, and we have a variety of powers. Perhaps we should try something different this group.
I am, at the risk of being immodest, the king of Step 3. I love irregular teams, and whenever we hit a tough spot and other are saying "we need an XXX", I'm saying "well here are a couple of alternate things we could try." Sometimes they don't work, but often they do, or someone else modifies what I said to an even better idea.
(Unfortunately, sometimes people - who are creatures of habit - quit before those suggestions get going. Which is another reason I like TFs better - players have staying power.)
People who have played other MMOs before either move through the steps faster, or get to stage 2 and quit. But you're lucky to have missed about a year into the game, when it seemed like everyone was Stage 2. I have literally been in ordinary missions where the leader said "no one but the tank steps in front of this line or I'm kicking you off the team."
Fun.
However, I think it's a necessary evil of MMORPGs that almost nobody is ever really confronted with something new. There's a great TF at the end of the Striga arc (25-30) given by Ernesto Hess. There are 2 of what I would call "big" surprises. (By which I mean you could die if you're not prepared - but you probably won't.) Whenever I do the Hess TF with a team, I ask if anyone has not done it before, and if they would like to know what's coming or be surprised. It's about 50/50, btw. But the bigger point is that I have never heard anyone else ask that. And there are some challenges that I would have preferred to figure it out as we went along, but I was spoiled by people who had done it before and "knew the strategy."
And that happens everywhere. During my brief time in D&D Online, I found that there wasn't an overabundance of content, but what existed was superbly customized. Unfortunately, when people run the same mission more than once, they already know the tricks. It's very different walking through a dungeon you think might have traps, and walking through a mission where the wizard knows there's a fire trap 6 feet up on the left under the dragon statue.
So I don't know the answer. Maybe surprises aren't meant to exist in MMOs. (Heck, maybe not in solo games either. I mean who hasn't died on a Half-Life level enough times until they realized "oh, the monster drops down right there. I should be prepared." But at least that's self-learning from experience, not getting told.
I do know that if you're willing to setttle for a variation in the strategy, at least one that's new to you, there are a few places in CoH that oblige. The obvious one is a Hamidon raid. Those are planned very precisely, but it is very different (with roles for just about everyone). Rikti ship raids are a bit different too, less organized and more "40 player raid" situations.
Then there are Arch Villain battles that require a different strategy. The enemy at the end of the new Impervius TF has been known to give some players pause. The last room of the 30-40 Oroboros TF (the 5th column one) is a bit different. The Katie Hannon TF in Croatoa is all kinds of different, except it's been done a million times and everyone knows their roles already - and brings the appropriate character. And the Statesman TF / Reculse SF were designed to be just this type of challenge.
I think mainly, and this is why I still play, the best experiences are ones you can't plan. Ones where you find yourself in a tough situation and lack the characters for Plan A. And in those situations, you should resist the urge to "go find a Rad" or "go find a Tank", and take those as the challenge to puzzle out.
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Faultline got a huge makeover about 15 months ago. It used to be just crevaces and leaning skyscrapers and full-size spawns. The makeover gave it a "rebuilding" makeover. New graphics for the front section, the entire back-of-the-dam portion was created, storyline-repeated NPCs and contacts, arachnos came in, the tunnels underneath, the 4 story arcs, etc etc.
If you don't recall that, perhaps its because the old Faultline was before your time. You didn't miss much.
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coH environments are wayyy better then CoV