Comparing an economic based sandbox pvpcentric space game to a fantasy gear acquisition level based game doesn't make for a good comparison, especially when the majority of the market is flooded with the latter. Maybe Eve is a harder game to learn, I don't know, but PvP games are "harder", because human oppopnents are smarter than computer AI... well in most cases. I'm sure Eve has its fair share of idiots.
We both agree that most every fantasy MMO is easy and similar in nature. I've yet to see one example of why you think WoW is easier than every other game and why you think the 12 year old mouthbreathers couldn't succeed in one of those other games. The only thing you've really said that exists in other games that doesn't in WoW is other games take longer, which isn't an obstacle to the people playing WoW like you would have anyone believe. It's not like WoW players have a time limit they can play a game and inflating the time needed to level or something is anyway a mountain of challenge that anyone cannot climb over.
All the spoonfed stuff existed already in other games. Not sure why you don't acknowledge that as well and single out WoW.
If by real raider you mean somone who claims to have taken down all the content in the game without posting an armory than yeah sure.
Inis kargath if you want to check me out.
SWP is a very difficult instance so is naxx and the latter half of AQ. What BT lacks in truly difficult fights it makes more than up for it in it's inventiveness and gear check. I have gone on record many times as saying WOW has the best PVE end game content of any other game out there and if thats what you're looking for than really choosing anything else would be a shame. With that said I think the gripes about pvp are justified, I used to play on 2200 arena teams but now a days I only do it with nubish friends of mine who are looking to gear out alts. Druids are the only really effective healer 2v2 or 3v3 and the idea that there should be outlast teams simply boggles my mind. I am happy blizzard is intorducing arena rating check on all arena gear but personally I think S4 is to little to late and finally the lack of new battlegrounds is disappointing to say the least.
With all of that being said I still enjoy WOW and will continue to play it until I find a truly superior pve/pvp game (meaning both componets have to be solid.)
Comparing an economic based sandbox pvpcentric space game to a fantasy gear acquisition level based game doesn't make for a good comparison, especially when the majority of the market is flooded with the latter. Maybe Eve is a harder game to learn, I don't know, but PvP games are "harder", because human oppopnents are smarter than computer AI... well in most cases. I'm sure Eve has its fair share of idiots.
We both agree that most every fantasy MMO is easy and similar in nature. I've yet to see one example of why you think WoW is easier than every other game and why you think the 12 year old mouthbreathers couldn't succeed in one of those other games. The only thing you've really said that exists in other games that doesn't in WoW is other games take longer, which isn't an obstacle to the people playing WoW like you would have anyone believe. It's not like WoW players have a time limit they can play a game and inflating the time needed to level or something is anyway a mountain of challenge that anyone cannot climb over.
Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.
The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.
Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.
Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
All the spoonfed stuff existed already in other games. Not sure why you don't acknowledge that as well and single out WoW.
Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy. The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined. Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around. Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
Comparing an economic based sandbox pvpcentric space game to a fantasy gear acquisition level based game doesn't make for a good comparison, especially when the majority of the market is flooded with the latter. Maybe Eve is a harder game to learn, I don't know, but PvP games are "harder", because human oppopnents are smarter than computer AI... well in most cases. I'm sure Eve has its fair share of idiots. I didn't know what I could and couldn't compare it to since there weren't any real guidelines. IMO WoW is still easier then most. Eve is most definitely harder to learn. We both agree that most every fantasy MMO is easy and similar in nature. I've yet to see one example of why you think WoW is easier than every other game and why you think the 12 year old mouthbreathers couldn't succeed in one of those other games. The only thing you've really said that exists in other games that doesn't in WoW is other games take longer, which isn't an obstacle to the people playing WoW like you would have anyone believe. It's not like WoW players have a time limit they can play a game and inflating the time needed to level or something is anyway a mountain of challenge that anyone cannot climb over. I think it's more that WoW was designed for easymode spoonfed play. Other games take more of a learning curve to picking it up, but ya after awhile in the game your second time through will be quicker. I agree mostly, it's just I think WoW made every aspect a bit easier to learn and go through. All the spoonfed stuff existed already in other games. Not sure why you don't acknowledge that as well and single out WoW.
WoW took spoonfeeding to new heights
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy. The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined. Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around. Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.
As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.
Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy. The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined. Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around. Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.
As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer. As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
Did you bother to read his statement? its the exact opposite, THE LONGER TIME IS BECAUSE OF THE ADDED DIFFICULTY. Pretty cut and dry.
Wow is SO easy that... Only 2 X 25 persons managed to down the last boss in the Sunwell raid (updated yesterday) out of a possible 10.700.000 accounts. Let's say a few million raiders. That's how many percentage ??? Gratz to the one EU and US team that did it. But Wow is so easy... yeah (just struggling every week with Zul Aman, Gruul and Maghteridon) and our guild didn't even begin on the last 4 raids. The only guys saying that Wow is easy are those who played the easy way (leveling to 70 without ever seeing anything). No problem you play Wow the way you like it, just don't think you played Wow by leveling.
Oh really? I'll have you know I was in a guild that has BT and MH on farm. Struggled with ZA? Gruul? Mag? Gruul and Mag have both been nerfed beyond recognition.
My 2s and 3s are still rated at 2.2k, my AP is capped, as well as my honor. 5/8 T6, excluding the Sunwell pieces as I no longer play. As well as my non-set epics, of which I have a ton.
Theres a difference between something being a challenge, and your core group of players just being terribad.
Anyone who says otherwise is a fanboi or has never seen the content they claim to have, plain and simple.
And its four guilds that have dropped Kil'jaeden, not two, glad to see you are so informed in a game you play actively, no wonder your guild struggles with trivial content:
Wow is SO easy that... Only 2 X 25 persons managed to down the last boss in the Sunwell raid (updated yesterday) out of a possible 10.700.000 accounts. Let's say a few million raiders. That's how many percentage ??? Gratz to the one EU and US team that did it. But Wow is so easy... yeah (just struggling every week with Zul Aman, Gruul and Maghteridon) and our guild didn't even begin on the last 4 raids. The only guys saying that Wow is easy are those who played the easy way (leveling to 70 without ever seeing anything). No problem you play Wow the way you like it, just don't think you played Wow by leveling.
Oh really? I'll have you know I was in a guild that has BT and MH on farm. Struggled with ZA? Gruul? Mag? Gruul and Mag have both been nerfed beyond recognition.
My 2s and 3s are still rated at 2.2k, my AP is capped, as well as my honor. 5/8 T6, excluding the Sunwell pieces as I no longer play. As well as my non-set epics, of which I have a ton.
Theres a difference between something being a challenge, and your core group of players just being terribad.
Anyone who says otherwise is a fanboi or has never seen the content they claim to have, plain and simple.
And its four guilds that have dropped Kil'jaeden, not two, glad to see you are so informed in a game you play actively, no wonder your guild struggles with trivial content:
That number will rise rapidly over the coming weeks and months, new content is just that, new. New does not indicate increased challenge.
So ... did YOUR avatar already downed these final bosses?
Hmm, so 4*25 people out of millions of raiders still needed a lot of trials. 0.0001% after days of "hard work".
So easy right.
I think I have more sympathy for that little lady of 50 who sees it as a challenge to capure the flag in WSG and can buy a nice looking healing mace.
And just because that purple mace with a healing of about half the hard core raiders have, the game AND the nice lady are being beheaded.
Well 10.7 million just proved you wrong: play Wow the way you like it.
I clearly stated I no longer play, and I told you where I was in terms of progression when I stopped playing the game. I won't be explaining myself to you multiple times, you can re-read for comprehension purposes if need be.
Nor do I need sympathy, I had nicer gear than you when I played, and I had a guild that doesn't blow goats in terms of progression.
Your words don't hold alot of weight when your guild cant even progress past ZA or Mag, get real guy, you are far from anywhere near content that even resembles a challenge.
Your basis for claiming the game is challenging is that only a few guilds have downed the highest tier raiding content? absolutely ridiculous. If you had any idea, you would understand that more than ONE guild downing that content is exactly what indicates how easy it is.
Just for arguements sake, yes I could re-activate my account today, and go to Sunwell with my guild - which is currently on M'uru, let me know when you guys manage to clear ZA or take down Mag and Gruul, rofl.
Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy. The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined. Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around. Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.
As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.
The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.
Considering the time of leveling as a question if a game is challenging or not is a laugh.
Think you missed the point. Time is not a cause but a possible result, so a game that "requires" more time may be more of a challenge than one that takes less time. That is the reason for asking why it takes more time.
Wow is SO easy that... Only 2 X 25 persons managed to down the last boss in the Sunwell raid (updated yesterday) out of a possible 10.700.000 accounts. Let's say a few million raiders. That's how many percentage ??? Gratz to the one EU and US team that did it. But Wow is so easy... yeah (just struggling every week with Zul Aman, Gruul and Maghteridon) and our guild didn't even begin on the last 4 raids. The only guys saying that Wow is easy are those who played the easy way (leveling to 70 without ever seeing anything). No problem you play Wow the way you like it, just don't think you played Wow by leveling.
Oh really? I'll have you know I was in a guild that has BT and MH on farm. Struggled with ZA? Gruul? Mag? Gruul and Mag have both been nerfed beyond recognition.
My 2s and 3s are still rated at 2.2k, my AP is capped, as well as my honor. 5/8 T6, excluding the Sunwell pieces as I no longer play. As well as my non-set epics, of which I have a ton.
Theres a difference between something being a challenge, and your core group of players just being terribad.
Anyone who says otherwise is a fanboi or has never seen the content they claim to have, plain and simple.
And its four guilds that have dropped Kil'jaeden, not two, glad to see you are so informed in a game you play actively, no wonder your guild struggles with trivial content:
That number will rise rapidly over the coming weeks and months, new content is just that, new. New does not indicate increased challenge.
So ... did YOUR avatar already downed these final bosses?
Hmm, so 4*25 people out of millions of raiders still needed a lot of trials. 0.0001% after days of "hard work".
So easy right.
I think I have more sympathy for that little lady of 50 who sees it as a challenge to capure the flag in WSG and can buy a nice looking healing mace.
And just because that purple mace with a healing of about half the hard core raiders have, the game AND the nice lady are being beheaded.
Well 10.7 million just proved you wrong: play Wow the way you like it.
Couldn't agree with you more. Man problem in WoW is the raiding community is full of casualties of puberty trying to flex their epeens. Left the game because got sick of guilds being swarmed by these people who had no time to talk or lend a hand to any nonraider even if in the same guild. They would rather stand around in Ironforge for hours waiting. Too many raiders take it way too seriously.
The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.
Considering the time of leveling as a question if a game is challenging or not is a laugh.
Think you missed the point. Time is not a cause but a possible result, so a game that "requires" more time may be more of a challenge than one that takes less time. That is the reason for asking why it takes more time.
And once again I say: Wow gives you that choice; hard OR easy.
Take one example: where TIME is the reference.
I wanted to have the title of Justicar: exalted with the 3 BG's.
To have the title I needed at least 1200 Warsong Gulch flags capped, participated in about 800 AB's and doing the AV's .
It took me in Pick Up groups about 10 weeks playing for about 8 hours a day for this 1 title.
I even had a score of this and capping with Alliance about 20/25 flags in WSG was the aim.
Playing 500 hours non stop in one branch of the game just to have one title is that hard?
Not if you have fun. Does it prove the game is "hard" or "soft". Of course not. But if TIME sinks are your measure than this proves that even Wow has them.
The advantage is : you make it just as long or hard or soft as you want it in Wow.
Again, you are using time as the cause, not the result.
Again, you are using time as the cause, not the result.
Got you now !
No ! I wanted that title and just this Justicar title made me play for 500 hours to get it.
And believe me it was PvP, so you better watched out with 10 vs 10 every effort counted.
The result was : I had my title. The bottom line was: I had FUN. Time was of NO issue.
And it was hard.
And your point is? That you found some thing you thought was fun so you spent a lot of time doing it? That I made the comment that time is a possible result of challenge and you keep saying that time is what makes things challenging? (Challenging things can take time, but time does not make things challenging)
Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy. The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined. Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around. Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.
As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.
That is the question that I am asking. I doubt it. The reason it takes longer in some other games is because the designers of those games designed them to take longer which most likely just means the ratio of gaining XP to the amount of XP required to reach max level is greater than in WoW. Nothing more.
The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.
Originally posted by Pappy13
That is the question that I am asking. I doubt it.
Then what makes one game "harder" than another for you? Time not being a consideration.
What you have said before, something that requires more complex thought or perhaps more physical dexterity. More eye-hand coordination. Better timing. Better problem solving skills.
Note that I said "requires". It's not simply enough for it to be a possibility, it must be the ONLY possibility. In other words if it takes player A twice as long to reach max level as player B, that doesn't necessarily mean that Player B has more skill or dexterity or better eye-hand coordination. It may be that Player A just likes to take his time and enjoy himself while player B prefers to rush to the end. Now if Player B can reach max level and Player A cannot, no matter how long it takes, than perhaps Player B is more skilled or has better dexterity or something. Time is not the sole factor. The ability to be able to perform the action or not is the key to difficulty.
Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy. The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined. Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around. Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.
As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.
That is the question that I am asking. I doubt it. The reason it takes longer in some other games is because the designers of those games designed them to take longer which most likely just means the ratio of gaining XP to the amount of XP required to reach max level is greater than in WoW. Nothing more.
Looks like there was a edit after my initial reply, so one more try.
Since I am NOT saying that a game is harder because it takes longer, just don't really see how that possible design has any real meaning.
So, for you, what would make one game harder than another? Again, time not being a consideration.
The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.
Originally posted by Pappy13
That is the question that I am asking. I doubt it.
Then what makes one game "harder" than another for you? Time not being a consideration.
What you have said before, something that requires more complex thought or perhaps more physical dexterity. More eye-hand coordination. Better timing. Better problem solving skills.
Note that I said "requires". It's not simply enough for it to be a possibility, it must be the ONLY possibility. In other words if it takes player A twice as long to reach max level as player B, that doesn't necessarily mean that Player B has more skill or dexterity or better eye-hand coordination. It may be that Player A just likes to take his time and enjoy himself while player B prefers to rush to the end. Now if Player B can reach max level and Player A cannot, no matter how long it takes, than perhaps Player B is more skilled or has better dexterity or something. Time is not the sole factor. The ability to be able to perform the action or not is the key to difficulty.
Looks like we crossed messages again.
I agree with many of the points you made here, but would like to drop the time part, since as I have said time is not a cause of difficultly/challenge.
Also, I would like to add that the minimum amount of effort/skill be used as the metric. The reason is that this is what the game requires, anything beyond that point is mainly due to the players challenging themselves and that will vary player to player. And the point is to compare games, not players.
If those changes/additions sound ok to you, then maybe we can develop a type of challenge/effort measuring device.
As a note, I have been trying to speak to the challenge of the game as a whole, not just combat vs combat or any other individual part.
Some require a great deal of time and/or effort (e.g. farming factions to exalted rep).
Some require a reasonable degree of skill - e.g. defeating some of the harder raid bosses, getting a top 20 arena team.
I have known plenty of people who play wow who have effectively reached their limit - e.g. people who lack the skill to ever progress much beyond kara. Recently on my realm a large raiding guild disbanded because it met a boss it couldn't beat (Lady Vashj) - too many people in the guild were frustrated that the guild lacked the combined skill necessary to down this boss - even when they knew themselves they had the gear.
When substantial numbers of people fail at a task - isn't that a sign the task isn't easy?
I agree with many of the points you made here, but would like to drop the time part, since as I have said time is not a cause of difficultly/challenge.
Then we agree. This is the only point I was making. Time is not the issue and is not a good measure for determining difficulty.
No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer. As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
Did you bother to read his statement? its the exact opposite, THE LONGER TIME IS BECAUSE OF THE ADDED DIFFICULTY. Pretty cut and dry.
Time is a factor of difficulty, thats a fact.
No it's not a fact. Time CAN be a factor of difficulty, but it doesn't have to be. In my example I showed how time was NOT a factor of difficulty thereby showing your hypothesis that time is always a factor of difficulty to be false. A longer time does not always mean more difficult, it just means more time. It CAN mean more difficulty, but not always. Sometimes, like my example, more time does NOT mean more difficulty. Therefore just because it takes longer in some games to reach max level, that is not evidence that it is more difficult.
Furthermore you have shown no evidence that the longer time in other games is due to added difficulty. You're making that assumption based off your faulty premise that time is always a factor of difficulty when it is not.
Originally posted by Taliasin Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.
The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.
Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.
Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.
That is pretty much exactly what I am talking about. For sake of discussion, the second crafting system is more challenging, it is more complex and it takes much more attention to complete than the first system. The fact that it takes more time is not important in the slightest. The actions taken during a 4 hour game session are far more important than the simple fact the something took 4 hours to complete. I think a lot of people are missing that point.
However, one games come to mind quickly that had a similar crafting system that you describe and another just behind that one. While on paper they appear to be more difficult and challenging, they turned out very different in implementation. They turned out to be grindfests of repeating the same clicks over and over and over. Each was designed by devs to cater to the crowd that thinks difficulty is measured by the amount of time spent doing something, regardless of the difficulty of the tasks being repeated.
Some people love time sinks and grind fests and consider them a measurement of achievement and more power to them for being happy. However, time spent does not equate to degree of difficulty, except for testings someones level of patience.
2 games. Game 1 is called the marathon. It's your typical 26 mile race from start to finish. Game 2 is called the 100 yard nap. It requires that a person run 100 yards, but after every 10 yards they must take an hour long nap.
If a person were to play game 2, it would take them at least 9 hours to complete the game.
Some people have been known to complete game 1 in about 4 hours I believe.
Anyone who believes that game 2 is a "harder" game than game 1, please raise your hand.
Comments
Comparing an economic based sandbox pvpcentric space game to a fantasy gear acquisition level based game doesn't make for a good comparison, especially when the majority of the market is flooded with the latter. Maybe Eve is a harder game to learn, I don't know, but PvP games are "harder", because human oppopnents are smarter than computer AI... well in most cases. I'm sure Eve has its fair share of idiots.
We both agree that most every fantasy MMO is easy and similar in nature. I've yet to see one example of why you think WoW is easier than every other game and why you think the 12 year old mouthbreathers couldn't succeed in one of those other games. The only thing you've really said that exists in other games that doesn't in WoW is other games take longer, which isn't an obstacle to the people playing WoW like you would have anyone believe. It's not like WoW players have a time limit they can play a game and inflating the time needed to level or something is anyway a mountain of challenge that anyone cannot climb over.
All the spoonfed stuff existed already in other games. Not sure why you don't acknowledge that as well and single out WoW.
If by real raider you mean somone who claims to have taken down all the content in the game without posting an armory than yeah sure.
Inis kargath if you want to check me out.
SWP is a very difficult instance so is naxx and the latter half of AQ. What BT lacks in truly difficult fights it makes more than up for it in it's inventiveness and gear check. I have gone on record many times as saying WOW has the best PVE end game content of any other game out there and if thats what you're looking for than really choosing anything else would be a shame. With that said I think the gripes about pvp are justified, I used to play on 2200 arena teams but now a days I only do it with nubish friends of mine who are looking to gear out alts. Druids are the only really effective healer 2v2 or 3v3 and the idea that there should be outlast teams simply boggles my mind. I am happy blizzard is intorducing arena rating check on all arena gear but personally I think S4 is to little to late and finally the lack of new battlegrounds is disappointing to say the least.
With all of that being said I still enjoy WOW and will continue to play it until I find a truly superior pve/pvp game (meaning both componets have to be solid.)
Mr. Vice out
All the spoonfed stuff existed already in other games. Not sure why you don't acknowledge that as well and single out WoW.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
WoW fanboi: "lolz 11.5 million customers, itz obviously da best"
McDonald's: over 1 billion burgers served
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
Did you bother to read his statement? its the exact opposite, THE LONGER TIME IS BECAUSE OF THE ADDED DIFFICULTY. Pretty cut and dry.
Time is a factor of difficulty, thats a fact.
Oh really? I'll have you know I was in a guild that has BT and MH on farm. Struggled with ZA? Gruul? Mag? Gruul and Mag have both been nerfed beyond recognition.
My 2s and 3s are still rated at 2.2k, my AP is capped, as well as my honor. 5/8 T6, excluding the Sunwell pieces as I no longer play. As well as my non-set epics, of which I have a ton.
Theres a difference between something being a challenge, and your core group of players just being terribad.
Anyone who says otherwise is a fanboi or has never seen the content they claim to have, plain and simple.
And its four guilds that have dropped Kil'jaeden, not two, glad to see you are so informed in a game you play actively, no wonder your guild struggles with trivial content:
World First Kills
#1 - SK-Gaming (May 25th)
#2 - Method (May 26th)
#3 - Nihilum (May 26th)
US First Kills
#1 - Deus Vox (May 27th)
That number will rise rapidly over the coming weeks and months, new content is just that, new. New does not indicate increased challenge.
Oh really? I'll have you know I was in a guild that has BT and MH on farm. Struggled with ZA? Gruul? Mag? Gruul and Mag have both been nerfed beyond recognition.
My 2s and 3s are still rated at 2.2k, my AP is capped, as well as my honor. 5/8 T6, excluding the Sunwell pieces as I no longer play. As well as my non-set epics, of which I have a ton.
Theres a difference between something being a challenge, and your core group of players just being terribad.
Anyone who says otherwise is a fanboi or has never seen the content they claim to have, plain and simple.
And its four guilds that have dropped Kil'jaeden, not two, glad to see you are so informed in a game you play actively, no wonder your guild struggles with trivial content:
World First Kills
#1 - SK-Gaming (May 25th)
#2 - Method (May 26th)
#3 - Nihilum (May 26th)
US First Kills
#1 - Deus Vox (May 27th)
That number will rise rapidly over the coming weeks and months, new content is just that, new. New does not indicate increased challenge.
So ... did YOUR avatar already downed these final bosses?
Hmm, so 4*25 people out of millions of raiders still needed a lot of trials. 0.0001% after days of "hard work".
So easy right.
I think I have more sympathy for that little lady of 50 who sees it as a challenge to capure the flag in WSG and can buy a nice looking healing mace.
And just because that purple mace with a healing of about half the hard core raiders have, the game AND the nice lady are being beheaded.
Well 10.7 million just proved you wrong: play Wow the way you like it.
I clearly stated I no longer play, and I told you where I was in terms of progression when I stopped playing the game. I won't be explaining myself to you multiple times, you can re-read for comprehension purposes if need be.
Nor do I need sympathy, I had nicer gear than you when I played, and I had a guild that doesn't blow goats in terms of progression.
Your words don't hold alot of weight when your guild cant even progress past ZA or Mag, get real guy, you are far from anywhere near content that even resembles a challenge.
Your basis for claiming the game is challenging is that only a few guilds have downed the highest tier raiding content? absolutely ridiculous. If you had any idea, you would understand that more than ONE guild downing that content is exactly what indicates how easy it is.
Just for arguements sake, yes I could re-activate my account today, and go to Sunwell with my guild - which is currently on M'uru, let me know when you guys manage to clear ZA or take down Mag and Gruul, rofl.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
Oh really? I'll have you know I was in a guild that has BT and MH on farm. Struggled with ZA? Gruul? Mag? Gruul and Mag have both been nerfed beyond recognition.
My 2s and 3s are still rated at 2.2k, my AP is capped, as well as my honor. 5/8 T6, excluding the Sunwell pieces as I no longer play. As well as my non-set epics, of which I have a ton.
Theres a difference between something being a challenge, and your core group of players just being terribad.
Anyone who says otherwise is a fanboi or has never seen the content they claim to have, plain and simple.
And its four guilds that have dropped Kil'jaeden, not two, glad to see you are so informed in a game you play actively, no wonder your guild struggles with trivial content:
World First Kills
#1 - SK-Gaming (May 25th)
#2 - Method (May 26th)
#3 - Nihilum (May 26th)
US First Kills
#1 - Deus Vox (May 27th)
That number will rise rapidly over the coming weeks and months, new content is just that, new. New does not indicate increased challenge.
So ... did YOUR avatar already downed these final bosses?
Hmm, so 4*25 people out of millions of raiders still needed a lot of trials. 0.0001% after days of "hard work".
So easy right.
I think I have more sympathy for that little lady of 50 who sees it as a challenge to capure the flag in WSG and can buy a nice looking healing mace.
And just because that purple mace with a healing of about half the hard core raiders have, the game AND the nice lady are being beheaded.
Well 10.7 million just proved you wrong: play Wow the way you like it.
Couldn't agree with you more. Man problem in WoW is the raiding community is full of casualties of puberty trying to flex their epeens. Left the game because got sick of guilds being swarmed by these people who had no time to talk or lend a hand to any nonraider even if in the same guild. They would rather stand around in Ironforge for hours waiting. Too many raiders take it way too seriously.
And once again I say: Wow gives you that choice; hard OR easy.Take one example: where TIME is the reference.
I wanted to have the title of Justicar: exalted with the 3 BG's.
To have the title I needed at least 1200 Warsong Gulch flags capped, participated in about 800 AB's and doing the AV's .
It took me in Pick Up groups about 10 weeks playing for about 8 hours a day for this 1 title.
I even had a score of this and capping with Alliance about 20/25 flags in WSG was the aim.
Playing 500 hours non stop in one branch of the game just to have one title is that hard?
Not if you have fun. Does it prove the game is "hard" or "soft". Of course not. But if TIME sinks are your measure than this proves that even Wow has them.
The advantage is : you make it just as long or hard or soft as you want it in Wow.
Got you now !
No ! I wanted that title and just this Justicar title made me play for 500 hours to get it.
And believe me it was PvP, so you better watched out with 10 vs 10 every effort counted.
The result was : I had my title. The bottom line was: I had FUN. Time was of NO issue.
And it was hard.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
That is the question that I am asking. I doubt it. The reason it takes longer in some other games is because the designers of those games designed them to take longer which most likely just means the ratio of gaining XP to the amount of XP required to reach max level is greater than in WoW. Nothing more.
The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.
What you have said before, something that requires more complex thought or perhaps more physical dexterity. More eye-hand coordination. Better timing. Better problem solving skills.
Note that I said "requires". It's not simply enough for it to be a possibility, it must be the ONLY possibility. In other words if it takes player A twice as long to reach max level as player B, that doesn't necessarily mean that Player B has more skill or dexterity or better eye-hand coordination. It may be that Player A just likes to take his time and enjoy himself while player B prefers to rush to the end. Now if Player B can reach max level and Player A cannot, no matter how long it takes, than perhaps Player B is more skilled or has better dexterity or something. Time is not the sole factor. The ability to be able to perform the action or not is the key to difficulty.
Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning. Lets say it's exactly like you have just said. Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done. Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows, moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.
Now, let me make one small change. When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted. In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item. Which is harder? By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer. Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor. Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder. It NEVER has. NEVER.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
That is the question that I am asking. I doubt it. The reason it takes longer in some other games is because the designers of those games designed them to take longer which most likely just means the ratio of gaining XP to the amount of XP required to reach max level is greater than in WoW. Nothing more.
What you have said before, something that requires more complex thought or perhaps more physical dexterity. More eye-hand coordination. Better timing. Better problem solving skills.
Note that I said "requires". It's not simply enough for it to be a possibility, it must be the ONLY possibility. In other words if it takes player A twice as long to reach max level as player B, that doesn't necessarily mean that Player B has more skill or dexterity or better eye-hand coordination. It may be that Player A just likes to take his time and enjoy himself while player B prefers to rush to the end. Now if Player B can reach max level and Player A cannot, no matter how long it takes, than perhaps Player B is more skilled or has better dexterity or something. Time is not the sole factor. The ability to be able to perform the action or not is the key to difficulty.
Some aspects of wow are easy some aren't.
Some require a great deal of time and/or effort (e.g. farming factions to exalted rep).
Some require a reasonable degree of skill - e.g. defeating some of the harder raid bosses, getting a top 20 arena team.
I have known plenty of people who play wow who have effectively reached their limit - e.g. people who lack the skill to ever progress much beyond kara. Recently on my realm a large raiding guild disbanded because it met a boss it couldn't beat (Lady Vashj) - too many people in the guild were frustrated that the guild lacked the combined skill necessary to down this boss - even when they knew themselves they had the gear.
When substantial numbers of people fail at a task - isn't that a sign the task isn't easy?
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Then we agree. This is the only point I was making. Time is not the issue and is not a good measure for determining difficulty.
So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder. Correct?
Did you bother to read his statement? its the exact opposite, THE LONGER TIME IS BECAUSE OF THE ADDED DIFFICULTY. Pretty cut and dry.
Time is a factor of difficulty, thats a fact.
No it's not a fact. Time CAN be a factor of difficulty, but it doesn't have to be. In my example I showed how time was NOT a factor of difficulty thereby showing your hypothesis that time is always a factor of difficulty to be false. A longer time does not always mean more difficult, it just means more time. It CAN mean more difficulty, but not always. Sometimes, like my example, more time does NOT mean more difficulty. Therefore just because it takes longer in some games to reach max level, that is not evidence that it is more difficult.
Furthermore you have shown no evidence that the longer time in other games is due to added difficulty. You're making that assumption based off your faulty premise that time is always a factor of difficulty when it is not.
However, one games come to mind quickly that had a similar crafting system that you describe and another just behind that one. While on paper they appear to be more difficult and challenging, they turned out very different in implementation. They turned out to be grindfests of repeating the same clicks over and over and over. Each was designed by devs to cater to the crowd that thinks difficulty is measured by the amount of time spent doing something, regardless of the difficulty of the tasks being repeated.
Some people love time sinks and grind fests and consider them a measurement of achievement and more power to them for being happy. However, time spent does not equate to degree of difficulty, except for testings someones level of patience.
Let me propose another hypothetical situation.
2 games. Game 1 is called the marathon. It's your typical 26 mile race from start to finish. Game 2 is called the 100 yard nap. It requires that a person run 100 yards, but after every 10 yards they must take an hour long nap.
If a person were to play game 2, it would take them at least 9 hours to complete the game.
Some people have been known to complete game 1 in about 4 hours I believe.
Anyone who believes that game 2 is a "harder" game than game 1, please raise your hand.