Lad, stop, don't continue you really make look yourself bad. I proved you wrong with the knockback thing. And I'll do it again here. It is not a breath cone ability. It's an extraordinary ability of the iron defenders used at will that can be casted on any target within short range, and there it has radius 20 feet.
If you want to argue like a man, don't lie here, and get the facts right.
its a spell....since when does climbing a ladder get you out of the range of a spell? if you were a caster, you could have hit the iron defender with a ranged spell too, right???
Two totally different games, LOTRO is another small step in the generally accepted evolution of MMOs that have features designed for mass market appeal, WoW being the largest. DDO was an attempt to break away from the tried and tested formula, active combat with real quests, which is exactly what it is. An experiment with obvious niche appeal. There is no evolutionary link between the two MMOs. One is a cash cow, the other is an attempt to try something new. Personally I believe that gives DDO much more gravitas.
I think there is a broader appeal for the system in general. It's just it was another game that hurt itself by releasing to early. Too many things not done and too little content at first. If this game that it is today were just released it would have done so much better. That is the problem with these games, sure there are some stragglers here and there over the years, but you only have one shot to get a huge base started and that is right up front.
That I wouldn't disagree with, although I still think there are elements like needing to group, instancing and a non-open world feel, that people have problems with. Sort of a clash between the PnP around a table feel and the MMO norm.
I also know a lot of people who hate twitch in any form, mainly because they feel it is non RPG and that any actions of the character should be controlled by stats, rather than their own ability to use a mouse/keyboard. My efforts to explain what you can do is still governed by your stats, it isn't pure twitch where your stats (reflexes) can exceed those of your characters, generally fall on deaf ears.
A classic example would be blocking with a shield. The twitch way would be you blocked no damage, the RPG twitch way would be you blocked, your damage is reduced by the quality of your shield and the stat that controls how well you used it.
Lad, stop, don't continue you really make look yourself bad. I proved you wrong with the knockback thing. And I'll do it again here. It is not a breath cone ability. It's an extraordinary ability of the iron defenders used at will that can be casted on any target within short range, and there it has radius 20 feet. If you want to argue like a man, don't lie here, and get the facts right.
Originally posted by merv808
its a spell....since when does climbing a ladder get you out of the range of a spell? if you were a caster, you could have hit the iron defender with a ranged spell too, right???
It is not supposed to be a ranged spell - period. It is a flaw in the game as those others I described. Also worth noting that the melee trip is no ranged either but being 40 or so game feet away and on a differant level didn't stop that from counting.
"In combat, the iron defender relies almost exclusively on its bite, using a mouth filled with blades of serrated metal. In Xen'drik, the common variety of iron defenders has been upgraded; a small pouch just behind the iron defender's mouth can spew out a layer of slippery grease out before a foe. This grease possesses most of the properties of the well-known arcane spell, and it is quick to evaporate. While it lasts, however, all manner of creatures must tread carefully lest they fall to the ground, and become infinitely more vulnerable to the defender's bladed teeth." FROM DDO HOMEPAGE http://www.ddo-europe.com/bestiary.php?id=20
Now tell me, what is the specific difference between the normal Grease spell and Iron Defenders Grease? Do you know? One thing is sure..This spell has 30ft. range on a lvl 2 character.
Again - I am not on the same level as the Defender and the spell is not ranged. It is like burning hands type thing - it goes from caster out and just as I could not hit the defender with a burning hands spell due us being on substantially different planes it should not be able to grease me up there.
But go try yourself, I don't have a caster to test and don't feel like opening one to see just for this. I do know that with player characters if you are even on slanted ground and cast one of these area around the caster type spells (commonly buffs) anyone not on the same plane misses out.
Again - I am not on the same level as the Defender and the spell is not ranged. It is like burning hands type thing - it goes from caster out and just as I could not hit the defender with a burning hands spell due us being on substantially different planes it should not be able to grease me up there.
But go try yourself, I don't have a caster to test and don't feel like opening one to see just for this. I do know that with player characters if you are even on slanted ground and cast one of these area around the caster type spells (commonly buffs) anyone not on the same plane misses out.
Read the description of the greese spell again, it most certainly is ranged.....
I would have to say if tthat picture are the types of "bugs" you are referring to than you should just give up gaming altogether. DDO is one of the most polished game out right now. If you do not understand the physics of d and d ask, why bash what you dont understand?
Polished? DDO? Please.
DDO is barely holding it together. If you want to see polished give WoW a try. People may not like the particular gameplay or grind that is in WoW, but that game has been polished to a tee.
DDO is so full of weird bugs and glitches that I'm surprised that this grease thing is all the OP could come up with.
Mod 7's known issues list is the longest yet, over 20 issues, and the forums are brimming with several more bugs that aren't even on the list.
Go take your cleric and go cast two blade barriers and find out how many mobs you can kill. Any mob hit by more than one blade barrier becomes completely immune to blade barrier. They even mention that they fixed blade barrier in the release notes for mod 7... yeah they fixed it alright.
And right now there is no ASF whatsoever for casters. Yes that's right, your caster can wear heavy plate mail and shield and tank with the best of them while throwing out firewalls and death spells with no chance for failure.
Looking at your screen shoot, I have to say that Grease is easily within range...
I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
We proved you wrong, go troll somewhere else.
All you proved is that fanboys will excuse and justify anything. You completely ignore the trip melee attack that the wall and distance don't prevent him from using even if you insist on ignoring the flakiness of how the grease is working. Doesn't matter, DDOs low populations speak volumes to the things I was saying are flawed with the game.
Looking at your screen shoot, I have to say that Grease is easily within range...
I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
No you're about 15-20 feet above it. Might want to check your facts there. That wall is roughly 5x the height of a dwarf and about 4x the height of a human. Thus that wall is ~20 feet high. (some of us actually play the game so quit exaggerating).
Grease spell is specifically a RANGED attack with an AREA affect. You can CENTER the effect anywhere within it's range. Since you're well within range he easily hits you with it.
Seriously... stop posting, you're just making yourself look stupid now.
As to your comment about 'fanbois' I would remind you that when this game released, and for several months afterwards, I was one of it's biggest detractors. I posted several times listing numerous problems the game had and cancelled my subscription because the game "sucked".
I have since come back to the game and while I do recognize that it isn't "perfect" (no game is) it is far superior to what it was when it released. It has come a VERY long way since it originally released and most of it's issues have been resolved. Most, as I said, of the things you have stated about the game are A) outdated or Flat out false
Your only valid arguement thus far in this entire thread is that the game has/had lag issues. Which is also true of every MMO I have ever played.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Looking at your screen shoot, I have to say that Grease is easily within range...
I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
We proved you wrong, go troll somewhere else.
All you proved is that fanboys will excuse and justify anything. You completely ignore the trip melee attack that the wall and distance don't prevent him from using even if you insist on ignoring the flakiness of how the grease is working. Doesn't matter, DDOs low populations speak volumes to the things I was saying are flawed with the game.
And now you even call us fanboys. You know a shit about the system. You probably just played the trial (the screenshot is from a level 1 or 2 dungeon). And you even dare to say it has a low population. So what? Do you always play/do things that majority of the population do as well? I mean do you enjoy things that are "popular"? Go troll on your playground kiddo and leave this game for people that actually enjoy it.
Stating negative opinion is fine, if you would come up with an arguments like DDo has overwhelmingly strong magical items for example, or that there is still no druid class in game. Or there could be a bit more races from Eberron. But you came here instead and spread out lies about some bugs. GREASE is range-spell not breath cone of cold. It's not burning hands effect. Can you understand that?
You fanboy-ish dismissal of any criticism of the game speaks for itself. all the points i made are completely valid as is the SShot. Grease is not suppose to work that way, certainly that much is borderline at best. And there is no way the melee attack with the trip effect should work with that kind of range and level difference. But go ahead, keep trolling on how these things are not quite common (especially around higher levels), meanwhile those who play and look at it honestly know otherwise.
Originally posted by Elnator I have since come back to the game and while I do recognize that it isn't "perfect" (no game is) it is far superior to what it was when it released. It has come a VERY long way since it originally released and most of it's issues have been resolved. Most, as I said, of the things you have stated about the game are A) outdated or Flat out false
I acknowledged some of the improvements to the game in this thread - but the core mechanics of encounters, especially higher end stuff, is still flawed and even more so as time has seen Turbine cheating up the AI more to compensate for the game getting its ass kicked early on.
I posted that shot simply because It was in my screenshot folder. It is not the best and perfect example of waht I was describing earlier but it is to an extent indicative of the issue. Perhaps grease should work that way, but in all the time I have play, perhaps a total of three months counting early around live and this last go around, I have never ever seen a single grease spell cast that far from the caster. Furthermore, most such player spells are extremely limited and negatively affected by changes in level like that, or even far less. Try getting a haste spell to hit you if you are just a few feet away and on a slope - is hit or miss. Lastly, there is NO excuse for the defenders melee trip attack to work at that range so that much remains demonstrated. Go to threnal and check what I say against teh Beholder in the part of the cave where the key drops, check the mummies around in the desert quests, check how often paralyzed MOBs move and even attack - these things are common occurances at higher levels.
And no matter what the issue is with the chaincasting, unlimited mana, uninteruptable, crazy high save/resists MOBs are or are not - the fact remains that it is a flawed ssytem where so much of an outcome is determined by dice rolls/gear/character attributes and so little is decided by player actions.
Try getting a haste spell to hit you if you are just a few feet away and on a slope - is hit or miss.
I play both a bard, and a Wizard (both are haste casters). I have never, not once, had haste not hit a member that was in range of the spell. The only time I have had it 'miss' is when I had the spell at level 5 as a wizard... because the Haste spell is level limited... you can only hit as many people as your level with it... So at level 5 you can't haste an entire group... At level 10 you can't haste an entire raid.... At level 12 is the only time you can toss haste and be guaranteed to hit everyone in the group if they are all in range on a raid (likewise lvl 6 for a group) (Casting level, mind you).
But having it just 'miss' someone? Never had it happen. Not going to say it never does... but it's never happened to me.
Lastly, there is NO excuse for the defenders melee trip attack to work at that range so that much remains demonstrated.
Agreed, there is a glitch with trip but it works that way for players too. I've tripped mobs halfway across the room. So at least it works both ways And I have tossed grease (playing around with items, never as a spell... I don't keep it memorized ever) pretty far before.
Go to threnal and check what I say against teh Beholder in the part of the cave where the key drops
Been there, both as caster, melee and ranged.... never had a real problem fighting him. What you describe I have not had happen to my groups.
, check the mummies around in the desert quests, check how often paralyzed MOBs move and even attack - these things are common occurances at higher levels.
What about them? Kill them all the time? What exactly about the mummies are you referring to?
I already said that yeah I've seen paralyzed mobs move around and even attack for a brief time, but that's a lag related issue, not really a bug, per se.
And no matter what the issue is with the chaincasting, unlimited mana, uninteruptable, crazy high save/resists MOBs are or are not - the fact remains that it is a flawed ssytem where so much of an outcome is determined by dice rolls/gear/character attributes and so little is decided by player actions.
Once again I would point out that you don't know what you're talking about. A VERY great deal in the game is dictated by "player actions". Done titan lately? Can't get through the puzzle unless you are not only smart, but have a team that works well together. Done STK on elite? Takes a rogue who knows wtf they're doing to get through the firetrap on elite at level 6/7.... Done the level 11 tombs quests in Necropolis? Again many of those take a certain level of intellect and teamwork to complete. Crucible requires incredible player ability to navigate both the maze and the swimming part safely. There's not a lot that 'good dice rolls' will do for you in there. I personally STILL haven't mastered the swim in that place. Done the dragon? If you don't pay attention and do the process right you won't kill the dragon. Been there with groups that know what they are doing and work together and been there with groups that were clueless... clueless groups, no matter what level they were (even 16's) died... while organized groups did it with no problem... even with just 10's and 11's in the group. Hell even in a dungeon as early as WATER WORKS how a group of players works together can drastically affect how smoothly or poorly the adventure goes.... Also in Butchers path same story.... Play those dungeons on elite and do stupid things at low levels and you'll party wipe... play smart and use good tactics and work as a team, and it goes smooth as butter. Knowing the best paths to take to make a mission easier.... learning which methods work best at killing which mobs.... These are all "player" dictated, rather than dice dictated.
Your arguements are flawed and biassed. You have played the game for minimal ammt of time and yet act as if you know every aspect of it when every time you start talking about actual game mechanics you make it blatantly obvious that you don't know how they work.
Yes, the game has some flaws (in my opinion the few flaws it has are minor ones and there are fewer every month). Like I said, show me an MMO that doesn't? Especially one only 2 years old? But you are over-exaggerating the flaws because you don't like the game. That is why you have no credibility on these forums. At least as far as DDO is concerned anyway.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
I would have to say if tthat picture are the types of "bugs" you are referring to than you should just give up gaming altogether. DDO is one of the most polished game out right now. If you do not understand the physics of d and d ask, why bash what you dont understand?
Polished? DDO? Please.
DDO is barely holding it together. If you want to see polished give WoW a try. People may not like the particular gameplay or grind that is in WoW, but that game has been polished to a tee.
DDO is so full of weird bugs and glitches that I'm surprised that this grease thing is all the OP could come up with.
Mod 7's known issues list is the longest yet, over 20 issues, and the forums are brimming with several more bugs that aren't even on the list.
Go take your cleric and go cast two blade barriers and find out how many mobs you can kill. Any mob hit by more than one blade barrier becomes completely immune to blade barrier. They even mention that they fixed blade barrier in the release notes for mod 7... yeah they fixed it alright.
And right now there is no ASF whatsoever for casters. Yes that's right, your caster can wear heavy plate mail and shield and tank with the best of them while throwing out firewalls and death spells with no chance for failure.
Polished... that's just a sad joke.
Gotta agree with Ridd here, polished is not what I would call DDO. However some of the OP's assertions are laughable. There are plenty of existing bug's the OP could have picked out but he seems to be focused on things that he obviously has no recent knowledge of.
Haven't run my Cleric since the last mod, guess it's down to just 1 BB now, and I heard that if you cast a second after the first epires any mobs hit by the first will be immune to the second? Hope they fix this soon, not game-breaking but hardly displaying a lot of polish either.
Now having said that, regardless of it's bugs and strange quirks (which the OP would rightfully be able to bag on, but he choose poorly) I still love this game aven after 2+ years and find myself playing pretty much daily.
Two totally different games, LOTRO is another small step in the generally accepted evolution of MMOs that have features designed for mass market appeal, WoW being the largest. DDO was an attempt to break away from the tried and tested formula, active combat with real quests, which is exactly what it is. An experiment with obvious niche appeal. There is no evolutionary link between the two MMOs. One is a cash cow, the other is an attempt to try something new. Personally I believe that gives DDO much more gravitas.
I think there is a broader appeal for the system in general. It's just it was another game that hurt itself by releasing to early. Too many things not done and too little content at first. If this game that it is today were just released it would have done so much better. That is the problem with these games, sure there are some stragglers here and there over the years, but you only have one shot to get a huge base started and that is right up front.
That I wouldn't disagree with, although I still think there are elements like needing to group, instancing and a non-open world feel, that people have problems with. Sort of a clash between the PnP around a table feel and the MMO norm.
I also know a lot of people who hate twitch in any form, mainly because they feel it is non RPG and that any actions of the character should be controlled by stats, rather than their own ability to use a mouse/keyboard. My efforts to explain what you can do is still governed by your stats, it isn't pure twitch where your stats (reflexes) can exceed those of your characters, generally fall on deaf ears.
A classic example would be blocking with a shield. The twitch way would be you blocked no damage, the RPG twitch way would be you blocked, your damage is reduced by the quality of your shield and the stat that controls how well you used it.
By I am going off at a tangent.
(Broken into chunks for the ADHD)
Oh for sure, it doesn't mean that everyone will be happy, I'm going on the assumption that isn't attainable. But yes, there are your open-world only players, there is your turn-based players, etc. However I like to think the majority is flexible and can like different things, I know I am one of those. I like fun game play and not mundane gameplay. I love a great fast paced game all the way down to a great turned based game, for example.
On Combat Speed:
What I find interesting is that a lot of people that bag on MMO's usually state the slower/skill clicking engine as one of the reasons they feel mmo's are very boring. I try to tell them that DDO has a lot of Diablo'esq type of action in it's combat model and to be honest, they don't believe me. They stick to what word of mouth says about the game and genre and that DDO is too instanced which as well all know means the community aspect suffers... BUT WAIT! Ironically, the one thing you read consistently about DDO above all others in the mature community. So somehow an instanced based game seems to rise above all others in a critical social aspect that instances are supposed to destroy. How can this be?
On Instancing:
My answer is, personally I feel a large segment of mmo players are confussed about a few things, not understanding the strengths of the technologies and more important not understanging how game design really makes or breaks the game. It's not really open-world or instances that make/break the game, it's how all the supporting game play elements that surround it work. Do those features compliment the world-techonology or leave gaping holes in it so every Tom, Dick and Harry can bash the game non-stop?
DDO proudly states iteslf for what it is. Then imo for the most part has good supporting features that makes the total sum very enjoyable and I know there are a lot more gamers that would like this game then the numbers indicate, but word of mouth is powerful. It's overall PvE group experience is imo the best of breed, it's easy to find a group, voice works great, the players are friendly.
But without a doubt those that are clearly a single style - single minded type player, they do get their voice out there to scare as many people as possible, for example "instances are devil incarnate". Not ever saying there isn't a linear feeling at all to this game, there are no X of X quests etc, stuff a lot of people dislike about mmo's... While in my world I look at the benifits of instances and what they can bring and then what did they do to take advantage of that style. DDO has done well vs. it's competition.
On Solo/Grouping:
This stuff we always read about "I want to solo everything" needs to be ignored by the dev's. This is an online game. I do believe a lot of this comes from shy people who have butterflies of feeling inadequate, or fear a confrontation may happen and who really takes things too personally.
Myself, I lean more towards the shy aide then outgoing, but if I can't get in a group in DDO and enjoy myself, then that is on me and telling me period, "maybe online games are not for me", because the mechanism for creating a group and community are so easy to work with. My dad is even shy'r, he won't take the couple of minutes to find a group and play, even though when he's on he'll join up with me and get in a group and love it. He want's to group but he's not out-going enough for a few reasons.
How does a company who makes an online game deal with that? IMO they shouldn't have to make a multi-player game a single player-game and imo players shouldn't be requesting that either, it's a self-limitation of one's personality and not the games short-coming. W all know there are plenty of single player RPG's out there. The shy are a funny group, they want to be surrounded by others but they are scared to speak up and be noticed.
Conclusion:
But it has the best PvE missions in a mmo and a very fluid comabt model that even games released recently get credit for something DDO has done years ago and still better. Just the whole part of people already have their minds made up and probably listen a bit too much to what others may say... even though there is a 10 day free trial.
Originally posted by Elnator Your arguements are flawed and biassed. You have played the game for minimal ammt of time and yet act as if you know every aspect of it when every time you start talking about actual game mechanics you make it blatantly obvious that you don't know how they work. Yes, the game has some flaws (in my opinion the few flaws it has are minor ones and there are fewer every month). Like I said, show me an MMO that doesn't? Especially one only 2 years old? But you are over-exaggerating the flaws because you don't like the game. That is why you have no credibility on these forums. At least as far as DDO is concerned anyway.
Biased, yes they are as they are opinions - there is really no way to not be biased on such things. Flawed - again, it is an opinion so how can I be wrong about what I think about the game? Do you suggest I really love these things but mistakingly think I dislike them? As for limited play - how is a total of three months (month+ back at launch and trial+month recently) not enough time? Credibility? Please, it is fair to say by the things most people say about DDO that far, far more agree with me than with you. DDO is at best a niche-niche game with a very minor population in terms of MMOs. Perhaps enough to warrant turbine keeping it open and whatnot, but this is not about it's economic success/failure.
The flaws are there - they are obvious, and any honest player (fan or hater) will acknowledge them. Some may not mind, some may enojy the character building and crafted quests anyways - but to deny this game is anything but gear, attributes, and dice rolls is rather specious. And yes, those things matter in all MMOs - the failing in DDO is how they matter so much more than mostly anything else like what a player does.
@ HorrorScope, mostly I find your comments reasonable although I disagree in terms of my opinion of the game. I do take issue with some of what you say about people's reaction to the game. I is a bit ridiculous to say that your opinion is valid and those who have an opinion otherwise are simply hearing bad word of mouth from others who are mis-informed or they would like it if they somehow was it some other way. People have seen it - people didn't like it - this is just the way it is. Now there seems to be a stable niche fan base and that is fine but despite lower sub prices and free trials people are not liking the game at any appreciable rate.
Originally posted by Elnator Your arguements are flawed and biassed. You have played the game for minimal ammt of time and yet act as if you know every aspect of it when every time you start talking about actual game mechanics you make it blatantly obvious that you don't know how they work. Yes, the game has some flaws (in my opinion the few flaws it has are minor ones and there are fewer every month). Like I said, show me an MMO that doesn't? Especially one only 2 years old? But you are over-exaggerating the flaws because you don't like the game. That is why you have no credibility on these forums. At least as far as DDO is concerned anyway.
Biased, yes they are as they are opinions - there is really no way to not be biased on such things. Flawed - again, it is an opinion so how can I be wrong about what I think about the game? Do you suggest I really love these things but mistakingly think I dislike them? As for limited play - how is a total of three months (month+ back at launch and trial+month recently) not enough time? Credibility? Please, it is fair to say by the things most people say about DDO that far, far more agree with me than with you. DDO is at best a niche-niche game with a very minor population in terms of MMOs. Perhaps enough to warrant turbine keeping it open and whatnot, but this is not about it's economic success/failure.
Didn't say it wasn't enough time to know whether YOU like the game or not. But you post stating 'the vast majority of the gaming community'. "Everyone". "All players". "Nobody likes". And other such statements. Sorry but you just don't have the credibility to try to speak for "the entire gaming community". Nobody here does, really.
And, frankly, yes there is a way to be un-biassed about issues. State the truth about them, don't over-exxagerate them. Yes, I like DDO. But I admit it has flaws. I admit that lag is an issue and I admit that paralyzed/held/tripped mobs do still move around for a short time after you land the effect on them. They do eventually stop in some cases it's not immediate and in some of those cases it takes a lot longer than it should. But it's not in EVERY case as you try to imply and you also state that t hey 'keep attacking' which, while it does happen, is actually pretty rare. I've seen them move around frequently... but actually continuing to attack and deal damage is not frequent at all (though it is entertaining to watch them zip around the battlefield for 10-15 seconds after being paralyzed).
See I can be objective and honest. You, however, speak in broad generalizations and show no grasp of the actual game mechanics when you try to debate them. Witness your nonsense about the grease effect which was completely debunked and made you look foolish. Yes, the game has some issues, yes they can be annoying. But you over-generalize and over-simplify. That is why I say you have no credibility. Because rather than sticking to facts you feel the need to blow things out of proportion.
The flaws are there - they are obvious, and any honest player (fan or hater) will acknowledge them. Some may not mind, some may enojy the character building and crafted quests anyways - but to deny this game is anything but gear, attributes, and dice rolls is rather specious. And yes, those things matter in all MMOs - the failing in DDO is how they matter so much more than mostly anything else like what a player does.
No, it's not. While much of a situation is dictated by dice/gear/stats every single dungeon in the game is also affected at least as much by player tactics and actions. The fact that you flat out refuse to admit this shows just how biassed your arguements are. Again, reducing your credibility. Yes, stats and dice rolls (and thus also equipment since it affects your stats) do impact how the gameplay falls but so too do player actions, tactics, and decisions.
Just as an example let's look at your decision to snipe the iron defender in your own screenshot rather than fighting him toe-to-toe.
The reason you did that is because he can't hurt you up there and since he can't get to you you were free to kill him with no harm to yourself. Sure he greased you a few times but he did no damage, and you killed him without weakening yourself or using up valuable healing supplies. People do this in several areas of the game, using terrain and obstacles to tactical advantage against the creatures they must fight. Allowing them to finish dungeons that would otherwise be too hard for them.
Another good example is being able to engage monsters from outside their engagement range. One of your own examples is a great one here: Beholders.... they are nasty, evil critters that can easily kill a player 1 on 1 if you close to melee range... but if you opt to fight from range with a bow, thrown weapon or crossbow you can kill a beholder while staying out of his range in many situations. With my ranger I can kill 2 of the 3 beholders in "Prison of the Mind" without taking any true risk whatsoever. And it's not even an exploit, it's valid use of terrain. Another huge weakness that beholders have is they suck at spotting players who are sneaking. As a result a group of melee who work together can use sneak/hide to get in behind the critter and get off huge sneak attacks on them, quickly dropping them and killing them with far less risk. Sure, you can charge in and you will eventually kill them but odds are you'll have more deaths than you really need to, thus burning up more resources rezzing people and healing them up. It's your CHOICE of tactics that dictate how a battle with a beholder goes, more often than not.
In STK, a level 3-6 dungeon, you can kill the end boss easily using the proper tactics, even on elite... but if you don't use the proper tactics he's impossible at that level.... so to in many other adventures in the game.
Why do you think groups block doorways and kill mobs with firewall? Are you telling me that that particular TACTIC has no impact on the outcome of a fight? Why not then just charge in blades swinging? Why? Because you'd die.... that's why. So, yes, dice, stats and items do HELP but they are NOT the only thing which impacts the outcome of any given battle. Why do people "Zerg" through combat then drop firewalls to killl more creatures faster? Because you COULD fight slowly, taking less risk, and eventually work your way through, but your casters and healers would run out of power more quickly as well.
Should the rogue disable that huge trap up there? Or should we leave it active and use it against the monster we're about to face? Should we use this shrine now or save it so we have it later? Should we block the door and let the caster kill the nasties with firewall/blade barrier? Or should we let the melee take care of this room so as to save caster mana? Should we charge through the next several rooms and then kill all the mobs at once further down at a chokepoint? Or should we slog through it slowly, thus taking a bit less risk but using more resources as we go? These are all tactical decisions that players make which impacts gameplay in DDO. Yet you flat out refuse to admit this. There are many many others as well. Do we fight at range? Or do we run in and kill?
Tactics and Player Ability DO impact the game, heavily. The fact that you flat out refuse to admit it is what makes your BIAS so blatant and removes all credibility from your points.
Is it TOO stat-centric? Certainly if you are an FPS player and want ALL outcomes to be PLAYER based rather than stat/die based it is. But if you like a solid blend of player wits and character skill to impact your game? Then I'd say DDO, while it's not PERFECT, is by far the best BLEND I've played. Which is one of the reasons I enjoy it.
Also, remember that the CHOICES that each player makes impacts their abilities and statistics. So the player has direct control of which stats they can bring to any given situation and what strength those stats can have.
You aren't wrong. There ARE problems with the game. But the problems you have chosen to point out are either flat out untrue or you are blowing them so far out of proportion to be ludicrous to anyone who's played this game for more than a couple days.
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Originally posted by Elnator Didn't say it wasn't enough time to know whether YOU like the game or not. But you post stating 'the vast majority of the gaming community'. "Everyone". "All players". "Nobody likes". And other such statements. Sorry but you just don't have the credibility to try to speak for "the entire gaming community". Nobody here does, really.
I do not think I claimed everyone hates the game or that all players agree with me, certainly absolutes cannot be applied to something like this. So if I did use such an absolute then it was a mistake to do so, I am sure I meant many or even majority instead. That being said, I do not believe I tried to even give the impression that everyone hates the game, simply that it is fair to observe that the game has a very small bases and that it is fair to say many people have rejected it. What reasons caused the rejection, we all see the comments and know the reputation the game has in the gaming community. I stand by my comments that what I am commenting on here plays a part, perhaps a big part, in that overall perception.
Originally posted by Elnator See I can be objective and honest. You, however, speak in broad generalizations and show no grasp of the actual game mechanics when you try to debate them. Witness your nonsense about the grease effect which was completely debunked and made you look foolish. Yes, the game has some issues, yes they can be annoying. But you over-generalize and over-simplify. That is why I say you have no credibility. Because rather than sticking to facts you feel the need to blow things out of proportion.
Broad generalizations are fair when they are based on public reaction and common perceptions. It is perfectly reasonable to say the movie Showgirls, for example, was believed to be a piece of crap by the movie going public. I am not a movie fan so forgive me going back a few years in thinking of a commonly accepted bomb but you get my point. Perhaps another example would be to say it is a fair characterization to say McDonald's is not fine dining - certainly some may love McDonald's but it is called junk/fast food for a reason and it is fair to characterize McDonald's and other such places in a certain way based on the broader public perception/judgment.
Originally posted by Elnator No, it's not. While much of a situation is dictated by dice/gear/stats every single dungeon in the game is also affected at least as much by player tactics and actions.
Here we will just agree to disagree - I think outcomes are heavily gear and attribute based, even more so than player action. I am mostly talking, as I said previously in this thread, about upper level stuff from upper mid level to high level mind you. That is not to say that a fighter who runs up to a MOB and then take no other action is not going to lose regardless of the gear and attributes he has - I am talking about a player engaged in the game being SOL in many circumstances, or at the wim of the rolls, if he does not have the right gear/stats/build.
Originally posted by Elnator
Just as an example let's look at your decision to snipe the iron defender in your own screenshot rather than fighting him toe-to-toe. The reason you did that is because he can't hurt you up there and since he can't get to you you were free to kill him with no harm to yourself. Sure he greased you a few times but he did no damage, and you killed him without weakening yourself or using up valuable healing supplies. People do this in several areas of the game, using terrain and obstacles to tactical advantage against the creatures they must fight. Allowing them to finish dungeons that would otherwise be too hard for them.
I agree such a tactical element is a good part of the game, any game. Where MMOs sometime fail to create a real time lively exchange of skill based combat they can do well with tactics and such. But this highlights my point about the failure of the game as the DEVs regularly rework such encounters to remove that otherwise valid tactics people emply to defeat encounters. How about the way Waterworks was just changed, after 2+ years, so you could not range the Kobolds on the bottom of the prison in part II (there where plenty of Shamens there that could range fight back and many throwers with ranged ability)? What about the Giant in the final part of Stormcleave and how that was changed. How about the way Threnal was changed back near launch to stick in a bunch of locked doors in the tunnels, and the rest shrines removed and slimes stuck all in with other MOBs where they didn't belong? Perhaps the fast runs people did where silly but I can honestly say it was a blast back that first few weeks when we where capped and had nothing else to do. Point being that even today content is constantly being pulled and changed because it is either flawed and exploitable or too easy because of legitimate tactics. Perhaps this is the nature of MMOs to a degree but the frequency and even spitefulness of many of the changes in DDO is unusual.
I came across this page at DDO once and was rather shocked it was published and is actually a DDO policy. What struck me is not so much how they define an exploit, although it can be very subjective, but how they give a lsit of acceptable or non-exploit things and comment that they may be 'fixed' in teh future as if fixing tactical things is part of the plan. I don't know, it strikes me as symptomatic.
The point being that even today there is a constant battle between the DEVs trying to make things legitimately challenging (admittingly hard to do with all the gear that got out early on and even since) and the players. Many would say the DEVs go out of their way to remove many of these things you call tactics simply to get at players. I don't think that is the case, I think they are protecting the content. But either way it is clear they struggle to develop fairly challenging content free from exploit or even tactical advantage situations.
Originally posted by Elnator Why do you think groups block doorways and kill mobs with firewall? Are you telling me that that particular TACTIC has no impact on the outcome of a fight? Why not then just charge in blades swinging? Why? Because you'd die.... that's why. So, yes, dice, stats and items do HELP but they are NOT the only thing which impacts the outcome of any given battle. Why do people "Zerg" through combat then drop firewalls to killl more creatures faster? Because you COULD fight slowly, taking less risk, and eventually work your way through, but your casters and healers would run out of power more quickly as well. In STK, a level 3-6 dungeon, you can kill the end boss easily using the proper tactics, even on elite... but if you don't use the proper tactics he's impossible at that level.... so to in many other adventures in the game.
Turbine just did a big nerf on the firewall tactic you describe and as I understand already declared the tactic in some places as an exploit. STK's Giant has been reworked at least once to remove the 'tactics' people used because as you admit the guy is otherwise unkillable at the level of the quest. All of those things are very much on the borderline of what turbine calls exploits. They are certainly in the realm of things they are fixing. I believe it fair to describe them as accidental, in many cases, opportunities rather than crafted tactical elements.
Another good example is being able to engage monsters from outside their engagement range. One of your own examples is a great one here: Beholders.... they are nasty, evil critters that can easily kill a player 1 on 1 if you close to melee range... but if you opt to fight from range with a bow, thrown weapon or crossbow you can kill a beholder while staying out of his range in many situations. With my ranger I can kill 2 of the 3 beholders in "Prison of the Mind" without taking any true risk whatsoever. And it's not even an exploit, it's valid use of terrain. Another huge weakness that beholders have is they suck at spotting players who are sneaking. As a result a group of melee who work together can use sneak/hide to get in behind the critter and get off huge sneak attacks on them, quickly dropping them and killing them with far less risk. Sure, you can charge in and you will eventually kill them but odds are you'll have more deaths than you really need to, thus burning up more resources rezzing people and healing them up. It's your CHOICE of tactics that dictate how a battle with a beholder goes, more often than not.
Love the AI for not being able to see you, mobs tend to spin around trying to work out where they are being hit from. Another good tactic is to get out of their line of view and fire an arrow somewhere else, they will here it, often go to investigate, or turn around allowing you to sneak up and use a mechanism and restealth before they notice.
Comments
Lad, stop, don't continue you really make look yourself bad. I proved you wrong with the knockback thing. And I'll do it again here. It is not a breath cone ability. It's an extraordinary ability of the iron defenders used at will that can be casted on any target within short range, and there it has radius 20 feet.
If you want to argue like a man, don't lie here, and get the facts right.
REALITY CHECK
its a spell....since when does climbing a ladder get you out of the range of a spell? if you were a caster, you could have hit the iron defender with a ranged spell too, right???
I think there is a broader appeal for the system in general. It's just it was another game that hurt itself by releasing to early. Too many things not done and too little content at first. If this game that it is today were just released it would have done so much better. That is the problem with these games, sure there are some stragglers here and there over the years, but you only have one shot to get a huge base started and that is right up front.
That I wouldn't disagree with, although I still think there are elements like needing to group, instancing and a non-open world feel, that people have problems with. Sort of a clash between the PnP around a table feel and the MMO norm.
I also know a lot of people who hate twitch in any form, mainly because they feel it is non RPG and that any actions of the character should be controlled by stats, rather than their own ability to use a mouse/keyboard. My efforts to explain what you can do is still governed by your stats, it isn't pure twitch where your stats (reflexes) can exceed those of your characters, generally fall on deaf ears.
A classic example would be blocking with a shield. The twitch way would be you blocked no damage, the RPG twitch way would be you blocked, your damage is reduced by the quality of your shield and the stat that controls how well you used it.
By I am going off at a tangent.
It is not supposed to be a ranged spell - period. It is a flaw in the game as those others I described. Also worth noting that the melee trip is no ranged either but being 40 or so game feet away and on a differant level didn't stop that from counting.
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Grease
Conjuration (Creation)Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target or Area: One object or a 10-ft. square
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
"In combat, the iron defender relies almost exclusively on its bite, using a mouth filled with blades of serrated metal. In Xen'drik, the common variety of iron defenders has been upgraded; a small pouch just behind the iron defender's mouth can spew out a layer of slippery grease out before a foe. This grease possesses most of the properties of the well-known arcane spell, and it is quick to evaporate. While it lasts, however, all manner of creatures must tread carefully lest they fall to the ground, and become infinitely more vulnerable to the defender's bladed teeth." FROM DDO HOMEPAGE http://www.ddo-europe.com/bestiary.php?id=20
Now tell me, what is the specific difference between the normal Grease spell and Iron Defenders Grease? Do you know? One thing is sure..This spell has 30ft. range on a lvl 2 character.
Again - I am not on the same level as the Defender and the spell is not ranged. It is like burning hands type thing - it goes from caster out and just as I could not hit the defender with a burning hands spell due us being on substantially different planes it should not be able to grease me up there.
But go try yourself, I don't have a caster to test and don't feel like opening one to see just for this. I do know that with player characters if you are even on slanted ground and cast one of these area around the caster type spells (commonly buffs) anyone not on the same plane misses out.
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Again -
Burning Hands
Level: Fire 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: 15 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
Grease
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target, or Area: One object or a 10-ft. square
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No
See a difference?
Looking at your screen shoot, I have to say that Grease is easily within range...
I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
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Read the description of the greese spell again, it most certainly is ranged.....
DDO is barely holding it together. If you want to see polished give WoW a try. People may not like the particular gameplay or grind that is in WoW, but that game has been polished to a tee.
DDO is so full of weird bugs and glitches that I'm surprised that this grease thing is all the OP could come up with.
Mod 7's known issues list is the longest yet, over 20 issues, and the forums are brimming with several more bugs that aren't even on the list.
Go take your cleric and go cast two blade barriers and find out how many mobs you can kill. Any mob hit by more than one blade barrier becomes completely immune to blade barrier. They even mention that they fixed blade barrier in the release notes for mod 7... yeah they fixed it alright.
And right now there is no ASF whatsoever for casters. Yes that's right, your caster can wear heavy plate mail and shield and tank with the best of them while throwing out firewalls and death spells with no chance for failure.
Polished... that's just a sad joke.
I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
We proved you wrong, go troll somewhere else.
REALITY CHECK
I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
1st - Kudos to you for avoiding the facts so gracefully
2nd - 30 ft is about the same size as a large bus, so yes, I think there is range.
Conserning your "HUGE" wall in front of it; You are clearly shooting him with a bow, meaning you are both in line of sight of eachother.
I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
We proved you wrong, go troll somewhere else.
All you proved is that fanboys will excuse and justify anything. You completely ignore the trip melee attack that the wall and distance don't prevent him from using even if you insist on ignoring the flakiness of how the grease is working. Doesn't matter, DDOs low populations speak volumes to the things I was saying are flawed with the game.
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I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
No you're about 15-20 feet above it. Might want to check your facts there. That wall is roughly 5x the height of a dwarf and about 4x the height of a human. Thus that wall is ~20 feet high. (some of us actually play the game so quit exaggerating).
Grease spell is specifically a RANGED attack with an AREA affect. You can CENTER the effect anywhere within it's range. Since you're well within range he easily hits you with it.
Seriously... stop posting, you're just making yourself look stupid now.
As to your comment about 'fanbois' I would remind you that when this game released, and for several months afterwards, I was one of it's biggest detractors. I posted several times listing numerous problems the game had and cancelled my subscription because the game "sucked".
I have since come back to the game and while I do recognize that it isn't "perfect" (no game is) it is far superior to what it was when it released. It has come a VERY long way since it originally released and most of it's issues have been resolved. Most, as I said, of the things you have stated about the game are A) outdated or
Flat out false
Your only valid arguement thus far in this entire thread is that the game has/had lag issues. Which is also true of every MMO I have ever played.
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I am 40 feet above it with a HUGE wall in front of it - are you blind?
We proved you wrong, go troll somewhere else.
All you proved is that fanboys will excuse and justify anything. You completely ignore the trip melee attack that the wall and distance don't prevent him from using even if you insist on ignoring the flakiness of how the grease is working. Doesn't matter, DDOs low populations speak volumes to the things I was saying are flawed with the game.
And now you even call us fanboys. You know a shit about the system. You probably just played the trial (the screenshot is from a level 1 or 2 dungeon). And you even dare to say it has a low population. So what? Do you always play/do things that majority of the population do as well? I mean do you enjoy things that are "popular"? Go troll on your playground kiddo and leave this game for people that actually enjoy it.Stating negative opinion is fine, if you would come up with an arguments like DDo has overwhelmingly strong magical items for example, or that there is still no druid class in game. Or there could be a bit more races from Eberron. But you came here instead and spread out lies about some bugs. GREASE is range-spell not breath cone of cold. It's not burning hands effect. Can you understand that?
REALITY CHECK
You fanboy-ish dismissal of any criticism of the game speaks for itself. all the points i made are completely valid as is the SShot. Grease is not suppose to work that way, certainly that much is borderline at best. And there is no way the melee attack with the trip effect should work with that kind of range and level difference. But go ahead, keep trolling on how these things are not quite common (especially around higher levels), meanwhile those who play and look at it honestly know otherwise.
I acknowledged some of the improvements to the game in this thread - but the core mechanics of encounters, especially higher end stuff, is still flawed and even more so as time has seen Turbine cheating up the AI more to compensate for the game getting its ass kicked early on.
I posted that shot simply because It was in my screenshot folder. It is not the best and perfect example of waht I was describing earlier but it is to an extent indicative of the issue. Perhaps grease should work that way, but in all the time I have play, perhaps a total of three months counting early around live and this last go around, I have never ever seen a single grease spell cast that far from the caster. Furthermore, most such player spells are extremely limited and negatively affected by changes in level like that, or even far less. Try getting a haste spell to hit you if you are just a few feet away and on a slope - is hit or miss. Lastly, there is NO excuse for the defenders melee trip attack to work at that range so that much remains demonstrated. Go to threnal and check what I say against teh Beholder in the part of the cave where the key drops, check the mummies around in the desert quests, check how often paralyzed MOBs move and even attack - these things are common occurances at higher levels.
And no matter what the issue is with the chaincasting, unlimited mana, uninteruptable, crazy high save/resists MOBs are or are not - the fact remains that it is a flawed ssytem where so much of an outcome is determined by dice rolls/gear/character attributes and so little is decided by player actions.
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I play both a bard, and a Wizard (both are haste casters). I have never, not once, had haste not hit a member that was in range of the spell. The only time I have had it 'miss' is when I had the spell at level 5 as a wizard... because the Haste spell is level limited... you can only hit as many people as your level with it... So at level 5 you can't haste an entire group... At level 10 you can't haste an entire raid.... At level 12 is the only time you can toss haste and be guaranteed to hit everyone in the group if they are all in range on a raid (likewise lvl 6 for a group) (Casting level, mind you).
But having it just 'miss' someone? Never had it happen. Not going to say it never does... but it's never happened to me.
Agreed, there is a glitch with trip but it works that way for players too. I've tripped mobs halfway across the room. So at least it works both ways
Been there, both as caster, melee and ranged.... never had a real problem fighting him. What you describe I have not had happen to my groups.
What about them? Kill them all the time? What exactly about the mummies are you referring to?
I already said that yeah I've seen paralyzed mobs move around and even attack for a brief time, but that's a lag related issue, not really a bug, per se.
Once again I would point out that you don't know what you're talking about. A VERY great deal in the game is dictated by "player actions". Done titan lately? Can't get through the puzzle unless you are not only smart, but have a team that works well together. Done STK on elite? Takes a rogue who knows wtf they're doing to get through the firetrap on elite at level 6/7.... Done the level 11 tombs quests in Necropolis? Again many of those take a certain level of intellect and teamwork to complete. Crucible requires incredible player ability to navigate both the maze and the swimming part safely. There's not a lot that 'good dice rolls' will do for you in there. I personally STILL haven't mastered the swim in that place. Done the dragon? If you don't pay attention and do the process right you won't kill the dragon. Been there with groups that know what they are doing and work together and been there with groups that were clueless... clueless groups, no matter what level they were (even 16's) died... while organized groups did it with no problem... even with just 10's and 11's in the group. Hell even in a dungeon as early as WATER WORKS how a group of players works together can drastically affect how smoothly or poorly the adventure goes.... Also in Butchers path same story.... Play those dungeons on elite and do stupid things at low levels and you'll party wipe... play smart and use good tactics and work as a team, and it goes smooth as butter. Knowing the best paths to take to make a mission easier.... learning which methods work best at killing which mobs.... These are all "player" dictated, rather than dice dictated.
Your arguements are flawed and biassed. You have played the game for minimal ammt of time and yet act as if you know every aspect of it when every time you start talking about actual game mechanics you make it blatantly obvious that you don't know how they work.
Yes, the game has some flaws (in my opinion the few flaws it has are minor ones and there are fewer every month). Like I said, show me an MMO that doesn't? Especially one only 2 years old? But you are over-exaggerating the flaws because you don't like the game. That is why you have no credibility on these forums. At least as far as DDO is concerned anyway.
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DDO is barely holding it together. If you want to see polished give WoW a try. People may not like the particular gameplay or grind that is in WoW, but that game has been polished to a tee.
DDO is so full of weird bugs and glitches that I'm surprised that this grease thing is all the OP could come up with.
Mod 7's known issues list is the longest yet, over 20 issues, and the forums are brimming with several more bugs that aren't even on the list.
Go take your cleric and go cast two blade barriers and find out how many mobs you can kill. Any mob hit by more than one blade barrier becomes completely immune to blade barrier. They even mention that they fixed blade barrier in the release notes for mod 7... yeah they fixed it alright.
And right now there is no ASF whatsoever for casters. Yes that's right, your caster can wear heavy plate mail and shield and tank with the best of them while throwing out firewalls and death spells with no chance for failure.
Polished... that's just a sad joke.
Gotta agree with Ridd here, polished is not what I would call DDO. However some of the OP's assertions are laughable. There are plenty of existing bug's the OP could have picked out but he seems to be focused on things that he obviously has no recent knowledge of.Haven't run my Cleric since the last mod, guess it's down to just 1 BB now, and I heard that if you cast a second after the first epires any mobs hit by the first will be immune to the second? Hope they fix this soon, not game-breaking but hardly displaying a lot of polish either.
Now having said that, regardless of it's bugs and strange quirks (which the OP would rightfully be able to bag on, but he choose poorly) I still love this game aven after 2+ years and find myself playing pretty much daily.
I think there is a broader appeal for the system in general. It's just it was another game that hurt itself by releasing to early. Too many things not done and too little content at first. If this game that it is today were just released it would have done so much better. That is the problem with these games, sure there are some stragglers here and there over the years, but you only have one shot to get a huge base started and that is right up front.
That I wouldn't disagree with, although I still think there are elements like needing to group, instancing and a non-open world feel, that people have problems with. Sort of a clash between the PnP around a table feel and the MMO norm.
I also know a lot of people who hate twitch in any form, mainly because they feel it is non RPG and that any actions of the character should be controlled by stats, rather than their own ability to use a mouse/keyboard. My efforts to explain what you can do is still governed by your stats, it isn't pure twitch where your stats (reflexes) can exceed those of your characters, generally fall on deaf ears.
A classic example would be blocking with a shield. The twitch way would be you blocked no damage, the RPG twitch way would be you blocked, your damage is reduced by the quality of your shield and the stat that controls how well you used it.
By I am going off at a tangent.
(Broken into chunks for the ADHD)
Oh for sure, it doesn't mean that everyone will be happy, I'm going on the assumption that isn't attainable. But yes, there are your open-world only players, there is your turn-based players, etc. However I like to think the majority is flexible and can like different things, I know I am one of those. I like fun game play and not mundane gameplay. I love a great fast paced game all the way down to a great turned based game, for example.
On Combat Speed:
What I find interesting is that a lot of people that bag on MMO's usually state the slower/skill clicking engine as one of the reasons they feel mmo's are very boring. I try to tell them that DDO has a lot of Diablo'esq type of action in it's combat model and to be honest, they don't believe me. They stick to what word of mouth says about the game and genre and that DDO is too instanced which as well all know means the community aspect suffers... BUT WAIT! Ironically, the one thing you read consistently about DDO above all others in the mature community. So somehow an instanced based game seems to rise above all others in a critical social aspect that instances are supposed to destroy. How can this be?
On Instancing:
My answer is, personally I feel a large segment of mmo players are confussed about a few things, not understanding the strengths of the technologies and more important not understanging how game design really makes or breaks the game. It's not really open-world or instances that make/break the game, it's how all the supporting game play elements that surround it work. Do those features compliment the world-techonology or leave gaping holes in it so every Tom, Dick and Harry can bash the game non-stop?
DDO proudly states iteslf for what it is. Then imo for the most part has good supporting features that makes the total sum very enjoyable and I know there are a lot more gamers that would like this game then the numbers indicate, but word of mouth is powerful. It's overall PvE group experience is imo the best of breed, it's easy to find a group, voice works great, the players are friendly.
But without a doubt those that are clearly a single style - single minded type player, they do get their voice out there to scare as many people as possible, for example "instances are devil incarnate". Not ever saying there isn't a linear feeling at all to this game, there are no X of X quests etc, stuff a lot of people dislike about mmo's... While in my world I look at the benifits of instances and what they can bring and then what did they do to take advantage of that style. DDO has done well vs. it's competition.
On Solo/Grouping:
This stuff we always read about "I want to solo everything" needs to be ignored by the dev's. This is an online game. I do believe a lot of this comes from shy people who have butterflies of feeling inadequate, or fear a confrontation may happen and who really takes things too personally.
Myself, I lean more towards the shy aide then outgoing, but if I can't get in a group in DDO and enjoy myself, then that is on me and telling me period, "maybe online games are not for me", because the mechanism for creating a group and community are so easy to work with. My dad is even shy'r, he won't take the couple of minutes to find a group and play, even though when he's on he'll join up with me and get in a group and love it. He want's to group but he's not out-going enough for a few reasons.
How does a company who makes an online game deal with that? IMO they shouldn't have to make a multi-player game a single player-game and imo players shouldn't be requesting that either, it's a self-limitation of one's personality and not the games short-coming. W all know there are plenty of single player RPG's out there. The shy are a funny group, they want to be surrounded by others but they are scared to speak up and be noticed.
Conclusion:
But it has the best PvE missions in a mmo and a very fluid comabt model that even games released recently get credit for something DDO has done years ago and still better. Just the whole part of people already have their minds made up and probably listen a bit too much to what others may say... even though there is a 10 day free trial.
Bravo Horror, great post and I find myself agreeing with a majority of your points.
@Horrorscope
Preaching to the converted with me.
Biased, yes they are as they are opinions - there is really no way to not be biased on such things. Flawed - again, it is an opinion so how can I be wrong about what I think about the game? Do you suggest I really love these things but mistakingly think I dislike them? As for limited play - how is a total of three months (month+ back at launch and trial+month recently) not enough time? Credibility? Please, it is fair to say by the things most people say about DDO that far, far more agree with me than with you. DDO is at best a niche-niche game with a very minor population in terms of MMOs. Perhaps enough to warrant turbine keeping it open and whatnot, but this is not about it's economic success/failure.
The flaws are there - they are obvious, and any honest player (fan or hater) will acknowledge them. Some may not mind, some may enojy the character building and crafted quests anyways - but to deny this game is anything but gear, attributes, and dice rolls is rather specious. And yes, those things matter in all MMOs - the failing in DDO is how they matter so much more than mostly anything else like what a player does.
@ HorrorScope, mostly I find your comments reasonable although I disagree in terms of my opinion of the game. I do take issue with some of what you say about people's reaction to the game. I is a bit ridiculous to say that your opinion is valid and those who have an opinion otherwise are simply hearing bad word of mouth from others who are mis-informed or they would like it if they somehow was it some other way. People have seen it - people didn't like it - this is just the way it is. Now there seems to be a stable niche fan base and that is fine but despite lower sub prices and free trials people are not liking the game at any appreciable rate.
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Biased, yes they are as they are opinions - there is really no way to not be biased on such things. Flawed - again, it is an opinion so how can I be wrong about what I think about the game? Do you suggest I really love these things but mistakingly think I dislike them? As for limited play - how is a total of three months (month+ back at launch and trial+month recently) not enough time? Credibility? Please, it is fair to say by the things most people say about DDO that far, far more agree with me than with you. DDO is at best a niche-niche game with a very minor population in terms of MMOs. Perhaps enough to warrant turbine keeping it open and whatnot, but this is not about it's economic success/failure.
Didn't say it wasn't enough time to know whether YOU like the game or not. But you post stating 'the vast majority of the gaming community'. "Everyone". "All players". "Nobody likes". And other such statements. Sorry but you just don't have the credibility to try to speak for "the entire gaming community". Nobody here does, really.
And, frankly, yes there is a way to be un-biassed about issues. State the truth about them, don't over-exxagerate them. Yes, I like DDO. But I admit it has flaws. I admit that lag is an issue and I admit that paralyzed/held/tripped mobs do still move around for a short time after you land the effect on them. They do eventually stop in some cases it's not immediate and in some of those cases it takes a lot longer than it should. But it's not in EVERY case as you try to imply and you also state that t hey 'keep attacking' which, while it does happen, is actually pretty rare. I've seen them move around frequently... but actually continuing to attack and deal damage is not frequent at all (though it is entertaining to watch them zip around the battlefield for 10-15 seconds after being paralyzed).
See I can be objective and honest. You, however, speak in broad generalizations and show no grasp of the actual game mechanics when you try to debate them. Witness your nonsense about the grease effect which was completely debunked and made you look foolish. Yes, the game has some issues, yes they can be annoying. But you over-generalize and over-simplify. That is why I say you have no credibility. Because rather than sticking to facts you feel the need to blow things out of proportion.
No, it's not. While much of a situation is dictated by dice/gear/stats every single dungeon in the game is also affected at least as much by player tactics and actions. The fact that you flat out refuse to admit this shows just how biassed your arguements are. Again, reducing your credibility. Yes, stats and dice rolls (and thus also equipment since it affects your stats) do impact how the gameplay falls but so too do player actions, tactics, and decisions.
Just as an example let's look at your decision to snipe the iron defender in your own screenshot rather than fighting him toe-to-toe.
The reason you did that is because he can't hurt you up there and since he can't get to you you were free to kill him with no harm to yourself. Sure he greased you a few times but he did no damage, and you killed him without weakening yourself or using up valuable healing supplies. People do this in several areas of the game, using terrain and obstacles to tactical advantage against the creatures they must fight. Allowing them to finish dungeons that would otherwise be too hard for them.
Another good example is being able to engage monsters from outside their engagement range. One of your own examples is a great one here: Beholders.... they are nasty, evil critters that can easily kill a player 1 on 1 if you close to melee range... but if you opt to fight from range with a bow, thrown weapon or crossbow you can kill a beholder while staying out of his range in many situations. With my ranger I can kill 2 of the 3 beholders in "Prison of the Mind" without taking any true risk whatsoever. And it's not even an exploit, it's valid use of terrain. Another huge weakness that beholders have is they suck at spotting players who are sneaking. As a result a group of melee who work together can use sneak/hide to get in behind the critter and get off huge sneak attacks on them, quickly dropping them and killing them with far less risk. Sure, you can charge in and you will eventually kill them but odds are you'll have more deaths than you really need to, thus burning up more resources rezzing people and healing them up. It's your CHOICE of tactics that dictate how a battle with a beholder goes, more often than not.
In STK, a level 3-6 dungeon, you can kill the end boss easily using the proper tactics, even on elite... but if you don't use the proper tactics he's impossible at that level.... so to in many other adventures in the game.
Why do you think groups block doorways and kill mobs with firewall? Are you telling me that that particular TACTIC has no impact on the outcome of a fight? Why not then just charge in blades swinging? Why? Because you'd die.... that's why. So, yes, dice, stats and items do HELP but they are NOT the only thing which impacts the outcome of any given battle. Why do people "Zerg" through combat then drop firewalls to killl more creatures faster? Because you COULD fight slowly, taking less risk, and eventually work your way through, but your casters and healers would run out of power more quickly as well.
Should the rogue disable that huge trap up there? Or should we leave it active and use it against the monster we're about to face? Should we use this shrine now or save it so we have it later? Should we block the door and let the caster kill the nasties with firewall/blade barrier? Or should we let the melee take care of this room so as to save caster mana? Should we charge through the next several rooms and then kill all the mobs at once further down at a chokepoint? Or should we slog through it slowly, thus taking a bit less risk but using more resources as we go? These are all tactical decisions that players make which impacts gameplay in DDO. Yet you flat out refuse to admit this. There are many many others as well. Do we fight at range? Or do we run in and kill?
Tactics and Player Ability DO impact the game, heavily. The fact that you flat out refuse to admit it is what makes your BIAS so blatant and removes all credibility from your points.
Is it TOO stat-centric? Certainly if you are an FPS player and want ALL outcomes to be PLAYER based rather than stat/die based it is. But if you like a solid blend of player wits and character skill to impact your game? Then I'd say DDO, while it's not PERFECT, is by far the best BLEND I've played. Which is one of the reasons I enjoy it.
Also, remember that the CHOICES that each player makes impacts their abilities and statistics. So the player has direct control of which stats they can bring to any given situation and what strength those stats can have.
You aren't wrong. There ARE problems with the game. But the problems you have chosen to point out are either flat out untrue or you are blowing them so far out of proportion to be ludicrous to anyone who's played this game for more than a couple days.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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I do not think I claimed everyone hates the game or that all players agree with me, certainly absolutes cannot be applied to something like this. So if I did use such an absolute then it was a mistake to do so, I am sure I meant many or even majority instead. That being said, I do not believe I tried to even give the impression that everyone hates the game, simply that it is fair to observe that the game has a very small bases and that it is fair to say many people have rejected it. What reasons caused the rejection, we all see the comments and know the reputation the game has in the gaming community. I stand by my comments that what I am commenting on here plays a part, perhaps a big part, in that overall perception.
Broad generalizations are fair when they are based on public reaction and common perceptions. It is perfectly reasonable to say the movie Showgirls, for example, was believed to be a piece of crap by the movie going public. I am not a movie fan so forgive me going back a few years in thinking of a commonly accepted bomb but you get my point. Perhaps another example would be to say it is a fair characterization to say McDonald's is not fine dining - certainly some may love McDonald's but it is called junk/fast food for a reason and it is fair to characterize McDonald's and other such places in a certain way based on the broader public perception/judgment.
Here we will just agree to disagree - I think outcomes are heavily gear and attribute based, even more so than player action. I am mostly talking, as I said previously in this thread, about upper level stuff from upper mid level to high level mind you. That is not to say that a fighter who runs up to a MOB and then take no other action is not going to lose regardless of the gear and attributes he has - I am talking about a player engaged in the game being SOL in many circumstances, or at the wim of the rolls, if he does not have the right gear/stats/build.
I agree such a tactical element is a good part of the game, any game. Where MMOs sometime fail to create a real time lively exchange of skill based combat they can do well with tactics and such. But this highlights my point about the failure of the game as the DEVs regularly rework such encounters to remove that otherwise valid tactics people emply to defeat encounters. How about the way Waterworks was just changed, after 2+ years, so you could not range the Kobolds on the bottom of the prison in part II (there where plenty of Shamens there that could range fight back and many throwers with ranged ability)? What about the Giant in the final part of Stormcleave and how that was changed. How about the way Threnal was changed back near launch to stick in a bunch of locked doors in the tunnels, and the rest shrines removed and slimes stuck all in with other MOBs where they didn't belong? Perhaps the fast runs people did where silly but I can honestly say it was a blast back that first few weeks when we where capped and had nothing else to do. Point being that even today content is constantly being pulled and changed because it is either flawed and exploitable or too easy because of legitimate tactics. Perhaps this is the nature of MMOs to a degree but the frequency and even spitefulness of many of the changes in DDO is unusual.
I came across this page at DDO once and was rather shocked it was published and is actually a DDO policy. What struck me is not so much how they define an exploit, although it can be very subjective, but how they give a lsit of acceptable or non-exploit things and comment that they may be 'fixed' in teh future as if fixing tactical things is part of the plan. I don't know, it strikes me as symptomatic.
The point being that even today there is a constant battle between the DEVs trying to make things legitimately challenging (admittingly hard to do with all the gear that got out early on and even since) and the players. Many would say the DEVs go out of their way to remove many of these things you call tactics simply to get at players. I don't think that is the case, I think they are protecting the content. But either way it is clear they struggle to develop fairly challenging content free from exploit or even tactical advantage situations.
Turbine just did a big nerf on the firewall tactic you describe and as I understand already declared the tactic in some places as an exploit. STK's Giant has been reworked at least once to remove the 'tactics' people used because as you admit the guy is otherwise unkillable at the level of the quest. All of those things are very much on the borderline of what turbine calls exploits. They are certainly in the realm of things they are fixing. I believe it fair to describe them as accidental, in many cases, opportunities rather than crafted tactical elements.
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Love the AI for not being able to see you, mobs tend to spin around trying to work out where they are being hit from. Another good tactic is to get out of their line of view and fire an arrow somewhere else, they will here it, often go to investigate, or turn around allowing you to sneak up and use a mechanism and restealth before they notice.