Whilst honesty at this stage is important, for them to have had so long and only realise (even now) that it wasn't going to happen is a concern. Either that or their honesty was a little delayed ...
The other issue is that they have now put enormous pressure on themselves - if they are going to cut so much they had better be sure that their launch is one of the smoothest in recent history (maybe not all that hard given recent history).
I can't imagine many people giving them much slack if they launch a third of the game they originally intended, and they encounter major issues at launch.
Hope for the best and expect the worst - that way at least you can never be disappointed, just pleasantly surprised.
"Mark chose the former and, from a glance at the forums, he cost Mythic some good will, though certainly more good will would have been lost had he chosen the latter. Right?"
True , but i disagree with the "loss of good will". I think their honesty and not wanting to screw people over for subs has won them more credit with the MMO community.
However, my one fear is that Mythic could end up pulling a Blizzard and spend two years hyping all the free content they have added when almost all of it is the stuff that was cut just before launch.
Aye, this is part of the marketing "tactic" that another poster alluded to previously.
The other tactic is, 'overextend then pullback' - if they knew and announced from the beginning they'd only be releasing a 2 city game people would have thought that was too small. But talk up an 8 city game to drum up interest and pre-orders, then come out all sheepish and apologetic before launch and play the 'well at least he's honest' card, and people think you're a hero and don't even notice that it's a small 2 city game.
What if they knew 3 years ago they'd never be able to have all the features they talked about, but kept hypeing them anyway to gain interest and orders?
Cutting the 4 classes. cool. I have no problem with that. Classes can allways be patched in at a later state. It's not that WAR have few classes anyways.
But cutting the 4 cities is a lot worse, cities are important for the feel of a game, and it is also important for the PvP aspect, it makes the endgame a lot more intresting. No, to me it sounds like they are getting forced by a certain publisher to release the game to early, same thing as happened to AoC and Vanguard. I rather wait another 6 months and get the full game than having another game release to early.
And is it just the cities or big zones around them that have been cut? How big will the game be at launch? Many new games suffer cause it is to few zones. Cutting down on content a few months before launch will not make that better.
I still have hopes for WAR but I dont trust the publisher.
It seems we have come to the point where we cant even hold devolopers to their word and promises because apperently it is beyond reasonable.
There is nothing about having 4 classes added post launch that sounds appealing, how poorly designed were these classes that they couldnt be salvaged they had to be totally scrapped 2 months before launch, How do you pump so much energy into advertising how great your class system will be, 4 archetypes and 24 unique classes and then at the last minute change it all around and expect people not to be furious about it. Removing an interactive raid city is understanble, but a class, that something you should have completly ironed out before you announce it.
Adding in the 4 missing classes after launch as if they are a prize is not appealing, i am going to have to shell out more money for an expansion to get features that were promised years before. And the content will finally be launched and a bunch of people start re rolling flooding the classes just to experience them.
Sure some people will applaud them for their decision but i am not one of them, i read articles like this as just a fancy way of saying the game isnt finished but we are launching it anyway. Scaling back content too meet the launch date is not quality over quantity, its moving the goal post, just because they announced ahead of time that we should be prepared for a post launch patch fest, doesnt change that fact.
I am one of the people who decided to cancel their preorder, while i enjoy the beta, i simply plan on waiting until all those post launch additions make their way into the game, whether it takes one month, two months or two years. I refuse to pay a company while they finish their product.
And for the record, i understand a mmo is supposed to be an ongoing product, and features are supposed to be continously added, my definition of a finished mmo at launch, is when the game comes out including all the key features they advertised the entire time the game was announced. Warhammer has cut too many things in my opinion that have me believe i am buying the same game, a few things they announced, a few things they havent announced yet. So i wil sit back, wait for the launch, watch th eprogress of the game, and read the patch notes carefully and when the game is at the point i feel is worth paying for i will go and pick it up.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I'm not buying the "we're cutting 4 to give you 2 great ones"... The bottom line is they are running out of time and have to cut scope. I would highly doubt that they are putting more time into the other 2 cities, it's more likely the case that pulling the 4 saves them time they need to just finish the game.
Oh and about "post launch": WoW was going to have player housing "post launch"... where is that?? WoW also was going to have "hero classES" post launch, several years later in a paid expansion pack they are introducing... *1* hero class. So those of you waiting for "post launch", don't hold your breath.
All Hail Mythic and their fanbois, All News is Good News !! Oh Mr Jacobs I could never be mad at you. Your PR is so good, you could cut more of the game and I wouldn't mind. Oh Mr Jacobs TAKE ME !!!
I applaud Mythic for straight out telling us gamers about the cuts. It makes me want to buy the game even more because they care about their content and want the best. Unlike other games like Age of Conan, which had almost no content after level 20 and didn't tell consumers anything. If AoC had a beta i bet 70% of the people who bought the game wouldn't have.
Yeah I respect your opinion but one thing has been nagging the back of my mind. I've always thought that tanks in MMOs are unrealistic. Why should the giant beast attack you instead of 9 other friends who are hurting it? Because you have heavy armor and use some taunt, like calling its momma fat? Now, I'm not saying this will be the case, but it'd be cool if it was...listen to what you said. "2 of the classes removed are TANKS. anyone that has played mmorpgs knows well enough how important tanks are to the PvE (and PvP in WAR) groups. "But you still have 2 other tanks on your faction! Indeed, that is correct, but this is WARHAMMER, not "insert generic fantasy game here". It is one thing to allow the other races as an ally, it is another matter entirely to HAVE TO DEPEND on them to work as a group! The Imperial Army does not need Elves Swordmasters to go to battle! And neither should Imperial players have to depend on the charity of the other races to do fun stuff!" Mythic is not inexperienced, this isn't their first MMO. They are more than aware of the problem of removing two tanks. Again, I can't confirm or deny this, but why should WAR have to be like "insert generic fantasy game here" when it comes to tanks? What if the PQ content and the low/mid-level PvE content for the races with missing tanks was not quite so tank dependant? I know, this is breaking the holy trinity of tank, DPS, and healer, but it'd 1) force DPS to stay on their feet, 2) force healers to stay on their feet, and 3) be more realistic. I dunno, I guess just part of me hated sitting in the back in those WoW raids clicking three buttons (max) because I was DPS. I could pretty much close my eyes and do it (unless the boss had alot of AoE/reactionary attacks, which some did, but it still felt boring after a few times). Am I alone in this? Probably, haha. I don't like dying, but I like doing more than spamming a few attacks because one heavy armored guy is drawing all the attention away.
Well, it is not me that makes it seems like that, it is Mythic. You might be right, but if that is the case why it is that Mythic itself labelled those classes "tanks"?
Why they have never mentioned something like "we are making away with the traditional mmo DPS,tank and healer mechanics"?
They never did because they are NOT making away with them. They are changing them to make them more enjoyable so the healer does not have to sit in the back pressing those 3 buttons for the whole time and the tank has a very big function in PvP as well, with collision detection on and taunts working in pvp as well. (you might have recall that the swordmaster, for example, was defined as a Spell caster tank and that it would be the best choice as a tank against certain type of encounters, presumably heavy magic user types, further evidence that the holy trinity system is in place, at least at its basics)
Furthermore, they STILL have tanks in the game, as pointed out. If the content is not tank-dependant, so why those tanks are there? just for the high level end game part?
Maybe it is like that and probably there was nothing Mythic could have done to save those classes, if they suck, they suck, not much to do for that.... of course the fact it took them up to 2 months from release to realize them kinda makes you wonder what their internal testing team was doing. But let's not be evil here, plenty of other games had even significant changes in the beta process (The talent system in wow, in its present form, was added in the beta for example).
Still, as a person planning to play Imperial forces (but not the knight that was cut) and a long term Warhammer tabletop game, it irks me to not have the stalwart knights fighting at my side and having to call in dwarves or elves in case a tank is really needed.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I applaud Mythic for being upfront about their game situation.
I disagree with their soloution. Instead of cutting, they should have delayed and kept their features. I am patient, and in no hurry. I want a good game with the features in it that they advertised. I don't need the game next week, next month, next whatever. I am grown up and fully capable of waiting.
But, at least they are letting everyone know their decision. And holding themselves accountable for their actions. That's alot more than most MMORPG companies can say.
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
I applaud Mythic for being upfront about their game situation. I disagree with their soloution. Instead of cutting, they should have delayed and kept their features. I am patient, and in no hurry. I want a good game with the features in it that they advertised. I don't need the game next week, next month, next whatever. I am grown up and fully capable of waiting. But, at least they are letting everyone know their decision. And holding themselves accountable for their actions. That's alot more than most MMORPG companies can say.
I agree with you. I too am grown up and can wait another year or whatever it takes to properly finish the game. People respond to people like us with, " Well then people will whine about the game being delayed, like before." They are absolutely right, but you know what? Those whiners will be there at day 1 no matter what, whereas people like us will actually pass the game up until it is actually complete.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
We are supposed to applaud their honesty in being upfront about cutting corners?
How about they be upfront about why they feel they need to release this game before it's complete?
Delay the thing until it's ready or just come out and say that you've been in production too long and you need the game to start drawing in money so you have to release it sooner than you should - that's honesty.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
Originally posted by JK-Kanosi I agree with you. I too am grown up and can wait another year or whatever it takes to properly finish the game. People respond to people like us with, " Well then people will whine about the game being delayed, like before." They are absolutely right, but you know what? Those whiners will be there at day 1 no matter what, whereas people like us will actually pass the game up until it is actually complete.
So why not release the game as they planned, and those that want to wait for the classes and cities to be in, hold off on buying it until they get patched in? (I believe Mythic suggested this as well for those that felt the cuts were a major issue).
Is that not an acceptible solution? If it isn't, then perhaps you are not much different than the whiners not wanting it delayed. If it is, then I guess there is no more point in complaining about it.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
Originally posted by JK-Kanosi I agree with you. I too am grown up and can wait another year or whatever it takes to properly finish the game. People respond to people like us with, " Well then people will whine about the game being delayed, like before." They are absolutely right, but you know what? Those whiners will be there at day 1 no matter what, whereas people like us will actually pass the game up until it is actually complete.
So why not release the game as they planned, and those that want to wait for the classes and cities to be in, hold off on buying it until they get patched in? (I believe Mythic suggested this as well for those that felt the cuts were a major issue).
Is that not an acceptible solution? If it isn't, then perhaps you are not much different than the whiners not wanting it delayed. If it is, then I guess there is no more point in complaining about it.
Absolutely. We all know from AoC that first month box sales aren't nearly as important as continued subscriptions. Who cares if you don't buy it at launch? Who cares if WAR only sells 400K boxes? It doesn't matter. If you come when the game is "complete" in your eyes, and you stay and subscribe for many months, it's much better than if you came at launch, said it was incomplete, and told everyone how much it sucked.
You can wait, so wait. Let those of us who think the cuts are acceptable have our fun while you sit outside .
-------------------------------------- A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Originally posted by JK-Kanosi I agree with you. I too am grown up and can wait another year or whatever it takes to properly finish the game. People respond to people like us with, " Well then people will whine about the game being delayed, like before." They are absolutely right, but you know what? Those whiners will be there at day 1 no matter what, whereas people like us will actually pass the game up until it is actually complete.
So why not release the game as they planned, and those that want to wait for the classes and cities to be in, hold off on buying it until they get patched in? (I believe Mythic suggested this as well for those that felt the cuts were a major issue).
Is that not an acceptible solution? If it isn't, then perhaps you are not much different than the whiners not wanting it delayed. If it is, then I guess there is no more point in complaining about it.
I'll answer this by asking a question. What are the disparities between those who start the game at launch and those who start a year or so later? Not even considering those who like to craft, how do you think these disparities are magnified in a PvP game? I already know these answers, because I've played DAoC for years. Now do you still think it is reasonable to expect everyone who doesn't agree with Mythics solution to wait until all cities are patched in? What if our roles were reversed? Would you appreciate me sacrificing your advantage so I can play the game earlier? At least you benefit by waiting, whereas starting a year or so late would be costly to those who do.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
Originally posted by JK-Kanosi I agree with you. I too am grown up and can wait another year or whatever it takes to properly finish the game. People respond to people like us with, " Well then people will whine about the game being delayed, like before." They are absolutely right, but you know what? Those whiners will be there at day 1 no matter what, whereas people like us will actually pass the game up until it is actually complete.
So why not release the game as they planned, and those that want to wait for the classes and cities to be in, hold off on buying it until they get patched in? (I believe Mythic suggested this as well for those that felt the cuts were a major issue).
Is that not an acceptible solution? If it isn't, then perhaps you are not much different than the whiners not wanting it delayed. If it is, then I guess there is no more point in complaining about it.
I'll answer this by asking a question. What are the disparities between those who start the game at launch and those who start a year or so later? Not even considering those who like to craft, how do you think these disparities are magnified in a PvP game? I already know these answers, because I've played DAoC for years. Now do you still think it is reasonable to expect everyone who doesn't agree with Mythics solution to wait until all cities are patched in? What if our roles were reversed? Would you appreciate me sacrificing your advantage so I can play the game earlier? At least you benefit by waiting, whereas starting a year or so late would be costly to those who do.
We are on the same page. I was gonna reply with the exact same thing. Too funny.
I see their point as well, though I don't agree with them. And as much as I want to play and enjoy WAR, maybe you others are right. And I should pass on this game all together. It's a shame because I like Mythic, and DAoC was my favorite mmorpg to date. I had many hopes riding on WAR. But, I don't like this new direction Mythic is taking.
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
How hard is it to understand the concept that there are two parties involved in the development of a game:
The Developer. This company is putting its heart and soul into the game. They want it to release with every feature they ever promised and they want those features to be as great as envisioned. They're the ones that talk to the community and build the hype about the game, because they love it so much.
The Publisher. This company is paying the bills. They want the game to be a success because they want to make money. But they also are not willing to keep funding development forever. Especially with an MMO which -- as so many people like to point out -- is never actually finished.
Completion dates are estimated by the developer. Release dates are set by the publisher. The publisher is usually willing to push the date back once or twice, but they have their whole marketing campaign to think about. They also don't work with just one game. They have to make sure that the position for X game doesn't conflict with the positions for Y and Z games, which are also in the works. In fact, they may even be counting on the profits from X to drive development funding for Y and Z.
Eventually, the publisher delivers an ultimatum to the developers: Release on this date, no matter what it takes.
Now put yourself in the position of the developer, having just been handed such a verdict. You want the game to be complete, but you know that you can't do everything by the date given. You also cannot afford to have the publisher pull the plug. So what do you do? I think that for any reasonable person, the answer is going to be pretty obvious and not very different from what Mythic is doing.
The bottom line is that the publisher is the company that holds all the cards. From the moment that a developer signs with one, it's the publisher that has the final say. They're the ones putting up the money that pays for the developers to make the game. No publisher means no game.
Vanguard is a great case study in this. Their original publisher pulled out, and Sigil floundered something fierce. For a while, it was in doubt as to whether the game would ever launch at all. They got lucky to find a new publisher with Sony, but that publisher was also somewhat hostile -- after all, Sigil was removed from the game a few months after launch. (All told, I think Sony made the right calls there, but that's another story.)
So stop making such a big stink with Mythic. Their hands are tied at this point. They just happen to be the easy targets because if you look again at my 1 and 2 above you can see how Mythic is the company that has faces we know and voices we've listened to. The publisher is a shadow in the background. But it's the publisher that ultimately made the call to release now and delay what has to be delayed in order to achieve that date.
I'll answer this by asking a question. What are the disparities between those who start the game at launch and those who start a year or so later? Not even considering those who like to craft, how do you think these disparities are magnified in a PvP game? I already know these answers, because I've played DAoC for years. Now do you still think it is reasonable to expect everyone who doesn't agree with Mythics solution to wait until all cities are patched in? What if our roles were reversed? Would you appreciate me sacrificing your advantage so I can play the game earlier? At least you benefit by waiting, whereas starting a year or so late would be costly to those who do.
Oh, I have no doubt there would be disparities, unless they started on a fresh server. But that is their choice to make. If you choose to have that disparity by not buying the game, than ultimately its a disparity in your control. Every choice has consequences. Choosing to play now rather than later has consequences too - though we may disagree on the severity of those consequences.
I do not agree that I benefit by waiting. The cuts are minor in my opinion, and not worth a delay. A delay would affect me more than playing a game with some minor cuts. I could just as easily say, you benefit by buying the game now, whereas delaying for a while would be costly to everyone else. But it all depends on how you feel the cuts were major, and I think they were minor.
I maintain that people really need to wait until open beta and the dropping of the nda to see for themselves how much of an imapct the cuts really had. A lot are basing it on speculation and not on the realities. But I'm not going to tell you how to think about the impact. I would rather people saw for themselves.
Do you think its reasonable to expect everyone who does agree with Mythics solution, to be forced to wait until the subset of people wanting more cities give them their personal seal of approval? It seems kind of strange that a group of players should have so much control over another group of players. Talk about disparities in power. Thats really just the same thing only the shoe is on the other foot.
Heres the real problem: Everyone has their own individual desires of what the game should be, what their ideal is, and there is a subset of those people that feel they should have the power to force all other gamers into that same ideal. Ultimately, the only thing each of us controls is our own actions. And no action comes without consequences. Choose to buy, choose to wait. Make whatever choice you want, but you can't expect to be able to force others to make the same choices. If a few missing end-game cities is really as bad as they make it out to be, and worth not buying the game over, than everyone that plays will be miserable and not enjoy the game. But if people play and still have a lot of fun, then it wouldn't have been worth delaying and everyone was making a big deal out of nothing.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence. Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
The cuts are fine, but when you look at the greenskins now... you are like.. wtf? Orcs can only be... black orcs? (Melee tanks) With their main dps dealer out now... It seems ridiculous as a whole their entire faction. I don't understand how they possibly could think that cutting their most popular greenskin class was going to work out for them, most of the people that wanted to play greenskin was going to be a Choppa (the class that got cut). I don't like that.
I was really eager to play an Orc Choppa. From the day I heard about WAR I envisioned myself as an Orc. Now, I don't know what I'll play as I don't enjoy pure tanks. I'm disappointed to say the least.
I was really eager to play an Orc Choppa. From the day I heard about WAR I envisioned myself as an Orc. Now, I don't know what I'll play as I don't enjoy pure tanks. I'm disappointed to say the least.
Aww poor kid...what you didn't know is that it would have been boring to play WAR as a choppa or it would have been underpowered. Say thank you to Mythic for taking it away.
Actually from multiple people playing closed beta, they actually said it was too overpowered. (Speculation, I haven't played it yet)
I *was* a beta tester for the game until I heard about this news. Sure, I am happy a company actually gave out information that they knew would hurt them but I feel the answer could have easily been avoided. With EA backing them but not in their development process, I think taking another 2 months or so to *AT* least develop the other classes. I can understand cutting capital cities because the amount of work they take (instances, peaceful/sieged stages, ect) but removing classes? Really? The only time a game should remove classes is when that classes is providing no functionally to the game.
Look at this, if they removed those classes from the game, that means the other classes has to make up for the loss of the other classe they were suppose to provide. Like the Ork Choppa, all about DPS. Now that they are missing that class for the orks, they either give another class that is left more DPS or spread the DPS to all the classes that are remaining. Ok, that has been fixed. Now, I am sure they plan on added those classes back later, but there lies the problem. Once they add those classes back, they have to nerf the class/classes that was suppose to fulfill the missing function. And we all know how much we hate nerfs? If they do not add the classes back then this game is going to be in a world of hurt with balancing issues/itemization/ect. for those classes that are now hybrids.
Really, all they needed to do was give a few more months of development to add those classes. Also, I really hate how they say they feel the cut classes was not up to par to their standards but if you look at the other classes, there is not much variety between the two mirror classes anyways (not sure if the general public knows about how their class system is set up so I will try to back off saying too much in order to maintain the NDA even though I do not test anymore). When I say a mirror class, I mean like the Goblin Squig Herder and the High Elf Whitelion are a mirror to one another, both pet classes. How much longer in development, with this type of class system, do you need to finish a DPS class, which should be a mirror of the dwarf ironbreaker (which is one of the cut classes) and the dark elf/empire tanks (which both were cut also)? Thats basically coming up with only two different classes to finish four classes, only changing the type of skills between the two to fulfill flavor and style of the race.
On the city cuts, even though I can live with this, will still prove to cause issues early and late in this games life. Early, the racial areas without a city to siege will have much less population than the areas with a city to siege, at least in the higher tiered zones. I will not say anything specific as it might break the NDA but I believe this will cause many issues. Later, once they add the cities to siege, most people will continue to stick with the Empire/Chaos areas as they have been. Of course, this issue could be resolved by the community itself but it could bring about unforseen issues.
All in all, I have cancelled my pre-order and will not be playing until they add both the classes and the cities that way my view of the game will not be a corrupted view of how the game should have been. Beyond this issue, from the stuff I have beta tested, Mythic has done a really nice job. There is a lot to be done before the game is due for their current release. I stopped playing about a month or so ago so I lot could have easily changed sense then. I hope the best for the people who are testing now and plan on playing afterwards, and for the people who have made their minds set on playing the game at launch. For me, I will be setting at the sidelines waiting patiently for the content that is suppose exist to create a better feel for the game.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
Comments
Whilst honesty at this stage is important, for them to have had so long and only realise (even now) that it wasn't going to happen is a concern. Either that or their honesty was a little delayed ...
The other issue is that they have now put enormous pressure on themselves - if they are going to cut so much they had better be sure that their launch is one of the smoothest in recent history (maybe not all that hard given recent history).
I can't imagine many people giving them much slack if they launch a third of the game they originally intended, and they encounter major issues at launch.
Hope for the best and expect the worst - that way at least you can never be disappointed, just pleasantly surprised.
"Mark chose the former and, from a glance at the forums, he cost Mythic some good will, though certainly more good will would have been lost had he chosen the latter. Right?"
True , but i disagree with the "loss of good will". I think their honesty and not wanting to screw people over for subs has won them more credit with the MMO community.
Aye, this is part of the marketing "tactic" that another poster alluded to previously.
The other tactic is, 'overextend then pullback' - if they knew and announced from the beginning they'd only be releasing a 2 city game people would have thought that was too small. But talk up an 8 city game to drum up interest and pre-orders, then come out all sheepish and apologetic before launch and play the 'well at least he's honest' card, and people think you're a hero and don't even notice that it's a small 2 city game.
What if they knew 3 years ago they'd never be able to have all the features they talked about, but kept hypeing them anyway to gain interest and orders?
Cutting the 4 classes. cool. I have no problem with that. Classes can allways be patched in at a later state. It's not that WAR have few classes anyways.
But cutting the 4 cities is a lot worse, cities are important for the feel of a game, and it is also important for the PvP aspect, it makes the endgame a lot more intresting. No, to me it sounds like they are getting forced by a certain publisher to release the game to early, same thing as happened to AoC and Vanguard. I rather wait another 6 months and get the full game than having another game release to early.
And is it just the cities or big zones around them that have been cut? How big will the game be at launch? Many new games suffer cause it is to few zones. Cutting down on content a few months before launch will not make that better.
I still have hopes for WAR but I dont trust the publisher.
It seems we have come to the point where we cant even hold devolopers to their word and promises because apperently it is beyond reasonable.
There is nothing about having 4 classes added post launch that sounds appealing, how poorly designed were these classes that they couldnt be salvaged they had to be totally scrapped 2 months before launch, How do you pump so much energy into advertising how great your class system will be, 4 archetypes and 24 unique classes and then at the last minute change it all around and expect people not to be furious about it. Removing an interactive raid city is understanble, but a class, that something you should have completly ironed out before you announce it.
Adding in the 4 missing classes after launch as if they are a prize is not appealing, i am going to have to shell out more money for an expansion to get features that were promised years before. And the content will finally be launched and a bunch of people start re rolling flooding the classes just to experience them.
Sure some people will applaud them for their decision but i am not one of them, i read articles like this as just a fancy way of saying the game isnt finished but we are launching it anyway. Scaling back content too meet the launch date is not quality over quantity, its moving the goal post, just because they announced ahead of time that we should be prepared for a post launch patch fest, doesnt change that fact.
I am one of the people who decided to cancel their preorder, while i enjoy the beta, i simply plan on waiting until all those post launch additions make their way into the game, whether it takes one month, two months or two years. I refuse to pay a company while they finish their product.
And for the record, i understand a mmo is supposed to be an ongoing product, and features are supposed to be continously added, my definition of a finished mmo at launch, is when the game comes out including all the key features they advertised the entire time the game was announced. Warhammer has cut too many things in my opinion that have me believe i am buying the same game, a few things they announced, a few things they havent announced yet. So i wil sit back, wait for the launch, watch th eprogress of the game, and read the patch notes carefully and when the game is at the point i feel is worth paying for i will go and pick it up.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
lol hype hype hype and then flop!!!!
I'm not buying the "we're cutting 4 to give you 2 great ones"... The bottom line is they are running out of time and have to cut scope. I would highly doubt that they are putting more time into the other 2 cities, it's more likely the case that pulling the 4 saves them time they need to just finish the game.
Oh and about "post launch": WoW was going to have player housing "post launch"... where is that?? WoW also was going to have "hero classES" post launch, several years later in a paid expansion pack they are introducing... *1* hero class. So those of you waiting for "post launch", don't hold your breath.
All Hail Mythic and their fanbois, All News is Good News !! Oh Mr Jacobs I could never be mad at you. Your PR is so good, you could cut more of the game and I wouldn't mind. Oh Mr Jacobs TAKE ME !!!
I applaud Mythic for straight out telling us gamers about the cuts. It makes me want to buy the game even more because they care about their content and want the best. Unlike other games like Age of Conan, which had almost no content after level 20 and didn't tell consumers anything. If AoC had a beta i bet 70% of the people who bought the game wouldn't have.
Well, it is not me that makes it seems like that, it is Mythic. You might be right, but if that is the case why it is that Mythic itself labelled those classes "tanks"?
Why they have never mentioned something like "we are making away with the traditional mmo DPS,tank and healer mechanics"?
They never did because they are NOT making away with them. They are changing them to make them more enjoyable so the healer does not have to sit in the back pressing those 3 buttons for the whole time and the tank has a very big function in PvP as well, with collision detection on and taunts working in pvp as well. (you might have recall that the swordmaster, for example, was defined as a Spell caster tank and that it would be the best choice as a tank against certain type of encounters, presumably heavy magic user types, further evidence that the holy trinity system is in place, at least at its basics)
Furthermore, they STILL have tanks in the game, as pointed out. If the content is not tank-dependant, so why those tanks are there? just for the high level end game part?
Maybe it is like that and probably there was nothing Mythic could have done to save those classes, if they suck, they suck, not much to do for that.... of course the fact it took them up to 2 months from release to realize them kinda makes you wonder what their internal testing team was doing. But let's not be evil here, plenty of other games had even significant changes in the beta process (The talent system in wow, in its present form, was added in the beta for example).
Still, as a person planning to play Imperial forces (but not the knight that was cut) and a long term Warhammer tabletop game, it irks me to not have the stalwart knights fighting at my side and having to call in dwarves or elves in case a tank is really needed.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I applaud Mythic for being upfront about their game situation.
I disagree with their soloution. Instead of cutting, they should have delayed and kept their features. I am patient, and in no hurry. I want a good game with the features in it that they advertised. I don't need the game next week, next month, next whatever. I am grown up and fully capable of waiting.
But, at least they are letting everyone know their decision. And holding themselves accountable for their actions. That's alot more than most MMORPG companies can say.
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
I agree with you. I too am grown up and can wait another year or whatever it takes to properly finish the game. People respond to people like us with, " Well then people will whine about the game being delayed, like before." They are absolutely right, but you know what? Those whiners will be there at day 1 no matter what, whereas people like us will actually pass the game up until it is actually complete.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
We are supposed to applaud their honesty in being upfront about cutting corners?
How about they be upfront about why they feel they need to release this game before it's complete?
Delay the thing until it's ready or just come out and say that you've been in production too long and you need the game to start drawing in money so you have to release it sooner than you should - that's honesty.
"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"
So why not release the game as they planned, and those that want to wait for the classes and cities to be in, hold off on buying it until they get patched in? (I believe Mythic suggested this as well for those that felt the cuts were a major issue).
Is that not an acceptible solution? If it isn't, then perhaps you are not much different than the whiners not wanting it delayed. If it is, then I guess there is no more point in complaining about it.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
So why not release the game as they planned, and those that want to wait for the classes and cities to be in, hold off on buying it until they get patched in? (I believe Mythic suggested this as well for those that felt the cuts were a major issue).
Is that not an acceptible solution? If it isn't, then perhaps you are not much different than the whiners not wanting it delayed. If it is, then I guess there is no more point in complaining about it.
Absolutely. We all know from AoC that first month box sales aren't nearly as important as continued subscriptions. Who cares if you don't buy it at launch? Who cares if WAR only sells 400K boxes? It doesn't matter. If you come when the game is "complete" in your eyes, and you stay and subscribe for many months, it's much better than if you came at launch, said it was incomplete, and told everyone how much it sucked.
You can wait, so wait. Let those of us who think the cuts are acceptable have our fun while you sit outside
.
--------------------------------------
A human and an Elf get captured by Skaven. The rat-men are getting ready to shoot the first hostage with Dwarf-made guns when he yells, "Earthquake!" The naturally nervous Skaven run and hide from the imaginary threat. He escapes. The Skaven regroup and bring out the Elf. Being very smart, the Elf has figured out what to do. When the Skaven get ready to shoot, the Elf, in order to scare them, yells, "Fire!"
Order of the White Border.
So why not release the game as they planned, and those that want to wait for the classes and cities to be in, hold off on buying it until they get patched in? (I believe Mythic suggested this as well for those that felt the cuts were a major issue).
Is that not an acceptible solution? If it isn't, then perhaps you are not much different than the whiners not wanting it delayed. If it is, then I guess there is no more point in complaining about it.
I'll answer this by asking a question. What are the disparities between those who start the game at launch and those who start a year or so later? Not even considering those who like to craft, how do you think these disparities are magnified in a PvP game? I already know these answers, because I've played DAoC for years. Now do you still think it is reasonable to expect everyone who doesn't agree with Mythics solution to wait until all cities are patched in? What if our roles were reversed? Would you appreciate me sacrificing your advantage so I can play the game earlier? At least you benefit by waiting, whereas starting a year or so late would be costly to those who do.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
So why not release the game as they planned, and those that want to wait for the classes and cities to be in, hold off on buying it until they get patched in? (I believe Mythic suggested this as well for those that felt the cuts were a major issue).
Is that not an acceptible solution? If it isn't, then perhaps you are not much different than the whiners not wanting it delayed. If it is, then I guess there is no more point in complaining about it.
I'll answer this by asking a question. What are the disparities between those who start the game at launch and those who start a year or so later? Not even considering those who like to craft, how do you think these disparities are magnified in a PvP game? I already know these answers, because I've played DAoC for years. Now do you still think it is reasonable to expect everyone who doesn't agree with Mythics solution to wait until all cities are patched in? What if our roles were reversed? Would you appreciate me sacrificing your advantage so I can play the game earlier? At least you benefit by waiting, whereas starting a year or so late would be costly to those who do.
We are on the same page. I was gonna reply with the exact same thing. Too funny.
I see their point as well, though I don't agree with them. And as much as I want to play and enjoy WAR, maybe you others are right. And I should pass on this game all together. It's a shame because I like Mythic, and DAoC was my favorite mmorpg to date. I had many hopes riding on WAR. But, I don't like this new direction Mythic is taking.
________________________________
Everything born must die. All that is, will come to ruin. This is the essence of Doom. So sayeth the Doomsayer.
How hard is it to understand the concept that there are two parties involved in the development of a game:
Completion dates are estimated by the developer. Release dates are set by the publisher. The publisher is usually willing to push the date back once or twice, but they have their whole marketing campaign to think about. They also don't work with just one game. They have to make sure that the position for X game doesn't conflict with the positions for Y and Z games, which are also in the works. In fact, they may even be counting on the profits from X to drive development funding for Y and Z.
Eventually, the publisher delivers an ultimatum to the developers: Release on this date, no matter what it takes.
Now put yourself in the position of the developer, having just been handed such a verdict. You want the game to be complete, but you know that you can't do everything by the date given. You also cannot afford to have the publisher pull the plug. So what do you do? I think that for any reasonable person, the answer is going to be pretty obvious and not very different from what Mythic is doing.
The bottom line is that the publisher is the company that holds all the cards. From the moment that a developer signs with one, it's the publisher that has the final say. They're the ones putting up the money that pays for the developers to make the game. No publisher means no game.
Vanguard is a great case study in this. Their original publisher pulled out, and Sigil floundered something fierce. For a while, it was in doubt as to whether the game would ever launch at all. They got lucky to find a new publisher with Sony, but that publisher was also somewhat hostile -- after all, Sigil was removed from the game a few months after launch. (All told, I think Sony made the right calls there, but that's another story.)
So stop making such a big stink with Mythic. Their hands are tied at this point. They just happen to be the easy targets because if you look again at my 1 and 2 above you can see how Mythic is the company that has faces we know and voices we've listened to. The publisher is a shadow in the background. But it's the publisher that ultimately made the call to release now and delay what has to be delayed in order to achieve that date.
Oh, I have no doubt there would be disparities, unless they started on a fresh server. But that is their choice to make. If you choose to have that disparity by not buying the game, than ultimately its a disparity in your control. Every choice has consequences. Choosing to play now rather than later has consequences too - though we may disagree on the severity of those consequences.
I do not agree that I benefit by waiting. The cuts are minor in my opinion, and not worth a delay. A delay would affect me more than playing a game with some minor cuts. I could just as easily say, you benefit by buying the game now, whereas delaying for a while would be costly to everyone else. But it all depends on how you feel the cuts were major, and I think they were minor.
I maintain that people really need to wait until open beta and the dropping of the nda to see for themselves how much of an imapct the cuts really had. A lot are basing it on speculation and not on the realities. But I'm not going to tell you how to think about the impact. I would rather people saw for themselves.
Do you think its reasonable to expect everyone who does agree with Mythics solution, to be forced to wait until the subset of people wanting more cities give them their personal seal of approval? It seems kind of strange that a group of players should have so much control over another group of players. Talk about disparities in power. Thats really just the same thing only the shoe is on the other foot.
Heres the real problem: Everyone has their own individual desires of what the game should be, what their ideal is, and there is a subset of those people that feel they should have the power to force all other gamers into that same ideal. Ultimately, the only thing each of us controls is our own actions. And no action comes without consequences. Choose to buy, choose to wait. Make whatever choice you want, but you can't expect to be able to force others to make the same choices. If a few missing end-game cities is really as bad as they make it out to be, and worth not buying the game over, than everyone that plays will be miserable and not enjoy the game. But if people play and still have a lot of fun, then it wouldn't have been worth delaying and everyone was making a big deal out of nothing.
Waiting for: A skill-based MMO with Freedom and Consequence.
Woe to thee, the pierce-ed.
The cuts are fine, but when you look at the greenskins now... you are like.. wtf? Orcs can only be... black orcs? (Melee tanks) With their main dps dealer out now... It seems ridiculous as a whole their entire faction. I don't understand how they possibly could think that cutting their most popular greenskin class was going to work out for them, most of the people that wanted to play greenskin was going to be a Choppa (the class that got cut). I don't like that.
I was really eager to play an Orc Choppa. From the day I heard about WAR I envisioned myself as an Orc. Now, I don't know what I'll play as I don't enjoy pure tanks. I'm disappointed to say the least.
Aww poor kid...what you didn't know is that it would have been boring to play WAR as a choppa or it would have been underpowered. Say thank you to Mythic for taking it away.
Actually from multiple people playing closed beta, they actually said it was too overpowered. (Speculation, I haven't played it yet)
I *was* a beta tester for the game until I heard about this news. Sure, I am happy a company actually gave out information that they knew would hurt them but I feel the answer could have easily been avoided. With EA backing them but not in their development process, I think taking another 2 months or so to *AT* least develop the other classes. I can understand cutting capital cities because the amount of work they take (instances, peaceful/sieged stages, ect) but removing classes? Really? The only time a game should remove classes is when that classes is providing no functionally to the game.
Look at this, if they removed those classes from the game, that means the other classes has to make up for the loss of the other classe they were suppose to provide. Like the Ork Choppa, all about DPS. Now that they are missing that class for the orks, they either give another class that is left more DPS or spread the DPS to all the classes that are remaining. Ok, that has been fixed. Now, I am sure they plan on added those classes back later, but there lies the problem. Once they add those classes back, they have to nerf the class/classes that was suppose to fulfill the missing function. And we all know how much we hate nerfs? If they do not add the classes back then this game is going to be in a world of hurt with balancing issues/itemization/ect. for those classes that are now hybrids.
Really, all they needed to do was give a few more months of development to add those classes. Also, I really hate how they say they feel the cut classes was not up to par to their standards but if you look at the other classes, there is not much variety between the two mirror classes anyways (not sure if the general public knows about how their class system is set up so I will try to back off saying too much in order to maintain the NDA even though I do not test anymore). When I say a mirror class, I mean like the Goblin Squig Herder and the High Elf Whitelion are a mirror to one another, both pet classes. How much longer in development, with this type of class system, do you need to finish a DPS class, which should be a mirror of the dwarf ironbreaker (which is one of the cut classes) and the dark elf/empire tanks (which both were cut also)? Thats basically coming up with only two different classes to finish four classes, only changing the type of skills between the two to fulfill flavor and style of the race.
On the city cuts, even though I can live with this, will still prove to cause issues early and late in this games life. Early, the racial areas without a city to siege will have much less population than the areas with a city to siege, at least in the higher tiered zones. I will not say anything specific as it might break the NDA but I believe this will cause many issues. Later, once they add the cities to siege, most people will continue to stick with the Empire/Chaos areas as they have been. Of course, this issue could be resolved by the community itself but it could bring about unforseen issues.
All in all, I have cancelled my pre-order and will not be playing until they add both the classes and the cities that way my view of the game will not be a corrupted view of how the game should have been. Beyond this issue, from the stuff I have beta tested, Mythic has done a really nice job. There is a lot to be done before the game is due for their current release. I stopped playing about a month or so ago so I lot could have easily changed sense then. I hope the best for the people who are testing now and plan on playing afterwards, and for the people who have made their minds set on playing the game at launch. For me, I will be setting at the sidelines waiting patiently for the content that is suppose exist to create a better feel for the game.
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
i agree 100%