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Full loot pvp... not really
Squal'Zell
Member Posts: 1,803
as i have seen, in many o-boards, games (UO), or these forums, people just either completely do not want full loot pvp and want to keep their legendary god slaying weapons forever (in which case the devs have to keep adding bigger and better ones) or completely want full look pvp and expect to grief the hell out of anyone who crosses their path and steal ALL their stuf, no matter the worth of it (in which case people end up quiting and you have a 2 player server)
there has to be a middle ground and i believe i may have a solution for that...
first, items should ALL be destroyable, be it by use or as a death penalty, to top it off, make it so when you repair it it its maximum durability becomes less than it was before (example 90/90 gets down to 15/90 needs to be repaired, it gets repaired but this time 80/80 and so on) so the weapon will get to a point where 1/1 durability will break with 1 use at which point its time to replace.
this system creates many "good things" for the game
1) the fact that there will be a consequence for dying, people will think 2x before attacking a large group. dying now involves degradation of EVERYTHING in your inventory (unless rezed) and you know that by repairing it, you will never have it back to 100% and if you die to much your you might completely loose it.
2) it will create another game tactic, equipment management. what am i going to do? grind? k ill use this regular sword of god slaying instead of this legendary god slayer, i am going into a large faction pvp war? better get my legendary out from my storage box, i have a feeling ill need it.
3) it wil lcreate a good economy with its money sinks and some use for high end crafters to get good sales and regular crafters to get a regular clientelle. also it will alow cheaper weapons to be usefull on the market because people need them now. and you will also avoid ridiculous prices like 4 billion gold pieces for x sword.
the only reason this full loot PvP works in EVE Online, its because you have zones and security areas. the closer you are to 1.0 space the safer you are. yes, people can still shoot at you but they may get an army of security ships after them that can kill any ship in 1 or 2 shots. you are safe enough to go afk) and by going into lower security 0.0 zones, YOU KNOW and YOU AGREE that by going there anything goes. so if you like your little cruise whip and dont want to loose everything that is in it, then do not even think of going into a 0.2 and lower zone. Having safezones in which people can feel and play "safe is the key.
at the limit, same thing went with SWG, pre-cu with its TEF system. if you did not want to pvp then you did not go overt. granted, you could not get those faction perks but you could still help out as a crafter or a doctor in the civil war. if you did not want to be suseptible to pvp then YOU KNOW not to attack an oposing faction. they will not even bother you(as long as you are covert status) if you do not touch them first. but by landing the first blow YOU AGREE that for the next 10 minutes you are suseptible to be attacked by any oposing faction member NPC and Player alike.
Open PvP can and will work if you have safezones people can play in. (i dont say 50/50 but something along 10-25 % of the whole map can be safezones.
Full loot can work because no matter how you put it, SOME people will ALWAYS ruin the fun for others because it amuses them. not realizing how stupid it can be once every one quits and they are the only ones left on the server.
i hate it when people just kill me, steal all of it, even if i have nothing of value to them and then trash it. thats just killing for the sake of killing. again i go to eve, pirates in 0.0 space will scan and assess the threat before they shoot you. is it actually worth killing this ship? does it have something worth it in there, is it a friend or foe? maybe i should wait till he makes his pickup at the station and get him on his way back and steal his pickup cargo? are my missiles worth spending on something of lesser value? will i survive this battle and my ship wont be to damaged?
all those questions that some have to ask themselves is what makes that open pvp work.
your thoughts?
Comments
there are plenty of non loot games ... so why bother about full loot, there are enough alternatives.
if you cannot stand loosing all your stuff just play another game.
sure wow or similar designed games cannot deliver full loot without pissing peoples off. and even in a game designed for full loot enough people will complain, whine, quit... and whatever
but for me full loot sounds good and reasonable in a game designed arround it. it brings a risk to the game and that is what i usually enjoy. taking a risk for a reward.
your way of seing it will come only when you are high enough level, the point is to get there, what can you do if you loose everything? you are butt naked and you go buy more and the same guy is wating for you in the same track, this time will be easier for him to kill yo uand steal you replacement gear
and now rince repease (or log of) and you end up with 0 gold 0 armour... all is left is you log out. and then you do what with the rest of your evening? go play world of warcraft... then you realize why pay 15$/month when you dont even play or you are forced to log out prematurely?
dont get me wrong, i love full look games, but they have to be controled and a system in place so you can play even if you loose everything. EVE is a perfect example, i love EVE and had i the time i would play it 24/7
god nobody in this modern day realizes that in the beginning Asheron's Call full loot pvp system (on the darktide player killer only server that is) did it perfect.. you would drop money (sometimes a decent amount.. and the next 4 or 5 valuable items [people would buy mana stones worth a ton of money to act as fillers so that there weapons wouldnt drop]) however if you were completely getting massacred in a town being overrun by a rival guild you could possibly end up losing your main weapon/armor/shield etc.. it all balanced out as well because you would kill others get most of there filler mana stones/money but also happen across a valuable weapon/item they had too.. it was fun and engaging and they had full loot pvp done perfect then caved in to the pussy other 7 carebear servers who wanted something similar to darktide pvp and added PKL, which didnt ruin darktide's perfect full loot open pvp system which to this day is in place and should be copied exactly by other for direct success...
all in all, future MMOs should have servers with the exact same rules as Asheron's Call Darktide PK server.. yeah you will have all the modern day pussy ass carebears crying that a level 20 will gank level 3s over and over but thats apart of the game and you get past that level zone eventually and it was even possible that like a skilled group of 5 level 6's or so could kill a level 20 and then grab his loot which was very valuable to the lower levels.. seriously who cares if you get constantly ganked by higher levels you will find ways to escape and it adds danger... you will be on your feet going into towns and run at the sight of high ass levels who have targeted you.. if no other MMO ever implements Darktides PK rules then they will fail as a "true" open ffa pvp looting system. period. anyone who played darktide AC will agree with me but not many of these noob gamers nowadays have played AC in its prime in 00-01 they just play these pussy carebear grind honor point fest games
As far as full loot systems go, I thought Mythics Entertainments DFC was the best ruleset i had played with full loot.
First, you could not kill your own realm mates.
Second, any items in your bank were safe, only stuff you carried was in danger.
Third, after you were killed, enemies and allies could loot you, and there was no auto loot function. Reinforced realm pride as your friends could help save your stuff.
Fourth, It was not that easy to attack another realm. You couldn't just hop over to another realm and start stealing peoples gear. Once you were on enemy lands, you would have to wait for the next boat before you could leave. So if you were spotted, you were being hunted by the whole realm usually. Plus, people would spend hours chatting with the guild watching the docks, waiting for boats of invaders to arrive.
There was no epic gear. Certain creatures droped certain gear. If you lost everything, you could build yourself back up to a decent set of gear in a couple days. But usually you didn't have to worry because the attackers took all the risk coming to your realm with no quick escape. Invaders would not come to an enemies realm in their best gear, they would come in the best gear that was easiest to replace.
So, there were boundaries. There were hard set allies you could trust and build loyalties with. There was a high price to invade another realm, and the invaders took all the risk. Defenders had places to secure their best gear (banks). This system worked great.
Other games i've played with full loot were FFA PvP. Those places were horribly cutthroat. Logging in was painful. A good night was inching closer to a skill level that could compete with the PKs that would wipe you out nightly. FFA PvP with full loot is horrible usually. People have very little self control, or self imposed boundaries for the betterment of the game.
Full Loot works, with the right ruleset and loot tables.
"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius."
-Oscar Wilde
With the old UO there was full loot. But there was not so much of your major gear...as much of the gear was crafted by the players. So with that idea, if there is full loot...ppl will simply not use their best gear unless they are in a group of trusted guildmates/friends.
With a full loot game...I see the advantage of having actual meaningfull crafting system in place. An actual meaningfull economy. Guildmates actually having some meaning. And frankly the Massive part of MMO having some meaning. Most games..WoW, LotR n many others have basically made every MMO a single player grindfest.
Unfortunately I don't beleive the MMO community is mature enouph anymore to handle such a game. Full PvP n loot just makes a bunch of kiddies waiting to gank and be generally annoying.
Most full loot games go the way of player run economy (means things have to decay and be destroyed with time)
One thing I am curious to see in full pvp games are consequences.
Most games I think fail because the consequences are too easy or harsh and also because it is difficult for the losing player to get 'revenge'. So either the pvpers leave or the not full pvers, dragging the game fully into a niche without keeping the balance such games normally need.
Only MMO I ever played with full loot is Eve.
I think the biggest reason why it works there and not elsewhere is because in Eve gear is a commodity - nearly everything is player-made or common enough of a drop that obtaining another isn't a big issue. So when your ship goes boom it's more a hit on your wallet (to replace your stuff) and your time (to go get it all and put it together) than anything else.
Full loot pvp will never work in any kind of a gear-based game though, where you spend eighty gazallion hours working toward one single item. You can't just bolt it onto a game that wasn't designed specifically for it, it'll never work.
Take away the 'bank' mechanic and force people to store stuff in player made towns and it works. I've seen a town completely leveled in wurmonline(takes a lot spite and time to do this(beta)) because that town supported a random ganker, since then anyone who joins the game for griefing gets tamed or is to busy keeping themselves fed and their storage house maintained to do anything else(after all no town wants them).
If for some reason you need to make a mass market game just have your base punishment for death be dropping one item, then after killing one person you'll lose a bit of experiance and an extra item. With more the penalty gets stacked again. You just need to make killing someone have enough of a penalty where it will have to of been personal for the person to have to of done so.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Gonna give Wurm a try tonight. Social system sounds pretty awesome. Sounds like a lot of the things i've wanted in an MMORPG, but last time i checked Wurmonline, i don't think it was live yet. Its letting me connect now.
"The public is wonderfully tolerant. It forgives everything except genius."
-Oscar Wilde
that was beta. now there's the wild server and the home server. Free accounts, which you're going to have to use because the game is VERY hit or miss, are stuck on home server where PvP is set up so that those that live normal lives are at the mercy of those that are willing to stretch the 'no PvP' rules and be social-butterfly-ie so they can get away with it (made worse because you're allowed by game mechanics to do actions that would get you banned if you can't stretch it and/or be social-butterfly-ie).
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.