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Why WAR is "different" to some and "the same" to others...
Abrahmm
Member Posts: 2,448
Just my theory...
I think that the main reason why WAR seems like it is completely different to some people and more of the same to others is because we have two primary groups of people. We have, for lack of a better term, "WoW generation" which were introduced into MMOs by WoW or something very similar, or simply like the style of WoW and the likes. These people see WAR as something completely different because they take things that are contained in WoW and others like classes/levels/quests as necessary and critical parts of an MMO. A game that contains these components is just normal, and they look beyond these components to determine if a game is different or not. These people see WAR's RvR, PvP focus, Public Quests, along with other things and think "This is completely different from WoW!"
The other group of people are the people that know MMOs can be so much more, and so much different. These people look at WAR having classes/levels/quests/fantasy theme and think "Another boring linear game" and probably pass it off before even playing it, or playing knowing what it is going to be and knowing they probably won't like it. Then the terms "WoW-clone" start getting thrown around, because in this group of people's eyes, the game is a WoW clone.
There, thats my theory on how we can have such heated debates about how WAR is a WoW-clone or how it is nothing like WoW.
(WoW is used in this because it is always used in everything, I don't care if WoW wasn't the first with these features, get over it. )
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Comments
Yeah I can agree with that, I also think that the general mechanics of combat is a factor.
It also depends on how willing you are to think outside the box and envisage what else devs could come up with instead of the standard game structure.
Well I do hope that Darkfall is released soon, then all those who dont want classes, lvls, quests, and who would like FFA pvp everywhere and complete sandbox in creating your own unique world will have a game to play at last and the rest of us can maybe get a little quiet here and actually talk about whats in the games instead of what isnt.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
Amen to that, but it will also have to be of high enough quality to satisfy us sandbox complainers, which isn't guarenteed.
Well if its a true sandbox game then the quality should depend on the quality of the players involved shouldnt it?
Personally I think it contains too many things I dont like about MMOs. Its never a good idea to allow other players to destroy something you have worked for, that kind of thing attract people with an unpleasant attitude toward their fellow humans. Same for fre for all pvp since it attract cowards instead of good pvp players to the game. Within a very short time this game will have groups of bullies that will break the game for everyone else and who get their fun out of hurting other people.
I think one of the reasons why some hate WaR is that pvp is honest there. When you go out to fight you go out to fight other people who are prepared to fight you back on an equal level and then the group of people who know to play best wins, not the ones who are most cowardly and evil. Many people hate that they cant gank defenseless people there.
"You are the hero our legends have foretold will save our tribe, therefore please go kill 10 pigs."
In theory that's how it works, but in reality it depends a lot on the mechanics. Players are only capable of doing what the game will let them do. Based on what we've been told, Darkfall will be everything we've always wanted and more, but talk is cheap and, as you can see above, things almost always look better on paper than they do in reality.
Well if its a true sandbox game then the quality should depend on the quality of the players involved shouldnt it?
It should but you know how people get when a game is released. They have their own personal things they want to experience in the game, if one thing is not perfect they whine about it. Even though the pre-purchased the game and play it on a regular basis.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Well if its a true sandbox game then the quality should depend on the quality of the players involved shouldnt it?
Personally I think it contains too many things I dont like about MMOs. Its never a good idea to allow other players to destroy something you have worked for, that kind of thing attract people with an unpleasant attitude toward their fellow humans. Same for fre for all pvp since it attract cowards instead of good pvp players to the game. Within a very short time this game will have groups of bullies that will break the game for everyone else and who get their fun out of hurting other people.
I think one of the reasons why some hate WaR is that pvp is honest there. When you go out to fight you go out to fight other people who are prepared to fight you back on an equal level and then the group of people who know to play best wins, not the ones who are most cowardly and evil. Many people hate that they cant gank defenseless people there.
When I say quality I mean not falling through the floor every 5 mins or getting constant disconnects and things like that. A good community would be appreciated as well though.
Not to be awkward but I've been thinking the exact opposite. I played my 1st mmorpg in 2001 and I'm one of those harping on about how WAR is a refreshing change. If you've only ever played 1 mmorpg you are going to go into your next one with the same mindset and try to do the same things and when you find that those things are there announce "This is just like WoW!". They haven't yet experienced that there is a whole range of similar yet different setups across the mmorpg genre and don't necessarily know that the differences exist if you look a little deeper or how those differences can affect the overall experience because their frame of reference is relatively narrow. For example I think some people just assume RvR is just wow battlegrounds under a different name, after all PvP is PvP right?
MMORPG
You are hypocritically condescending.
I played pen-and-paper RPGs from original D&D up until now.. lets say I played every RPG that meant anything in the hobby: skill-based, class-based, class-based without levels, levels without classes, fantasy, sci-fi, horror, wild west, historic, cyberpunk and RL - you name it. In addition I've been MMOing since UO days and had an occasional dip into MUDs even before that.
With this kind of experience I can percieve that a game can be quite revolutionary in ways that are divorced from the way character advancement and combat works. Your bunching up of features into homogenous lumps just shows your inexperience.
You can have a pure sandbox with classess and levels just like you can have a skill-based linear grindfest. You can have a linear, driving storyline combined with a dynamic world. You can have complex crafting systems with dead economies and vice versa. You can have a "revolutionary" twitch-based combat combined with the drollest possible content-access structure.
Please move on from UO vs EQ dichotomy because it is sooooo old that it smells funny.
And besides UO is older than EQ, so I find that the argument lurking behind your post that a next-gen MMORPG must be a skill-based sandbox utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
WAR is a billion light years ahead of what Darkfall is going to be because it features evolved and revolutionary gameplay concepts. Darkfall is just a UO2 in glorious 3D without a cute setting... just like AOC is a gimped EQ2 thing with a polygon overload.
You are hypocritically condescending.
I played pen-and-paper RPGs from original D&D up until now.. lets say I played every RPG that meant anything in the hobby: skill-based, class-based, class-based without levels, levels without classes, fantasy, sci-fi, horror, wild west, historic, cyberpunk and RL - you name it. In addition I've been MMOing since UO days and had an occasional dip into MUDs even before that.
With this kind of experience I can percieve that a game can be quite revolutionary in ways that are divorced from the way character advancement and combat works. Your bunching up of features into homogenous lumps just shows your inexperience.
You can have a pure sandbox with classess and levels just like you can have a skill-based linear grindfest. You can have a linear, driving storyline combined with a dynamic world. You can have complex crafting systems with dead economies and vice versa. You can have a "revolutionary" twitch-based combat combined with the drollest possible content-access structure.
Please move on from UO vs EQ dichotomy because it is sooooo old that it smells funny.
And besides UO is older than EQ, so I find that the argument lurking behind your post that a next-gen MMORPG must be a skill-based sandbox utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
I have no idea what this guy just said.....
King of the world
You are hypocritically condescending.
No, no I wasn't.
I played pen-and-paper RPGs from original D&D up until now.. lets say I played every RPG that meant anything in the hobby: skill-based, class-based, class-based without levels, levels without classes, fantasy, sci-fi, horror, wild west, historic, cyberpunk and RL - you name it. In addition I've been MMOing since UO days and had an occasional dip into MUDs even before that.
Congrats, you are way more nerd than me.
With this kind of experience I can percieve that a game can be quite revolutionary in ways that are divorced from the way character advancement and combat works. Your bunching up of features into homogenous lumps just shows your inexperience.
You can have a pure sandbox with classess and levels
No you can't. Classes and levels are everything a sandbox isn't. A sandbox is about freedom, there is nothing free about being restricted by classes or levels.
just like you can have a skill-based linear grindfest. You can have a linear, driving storyline combined with a dynamic world. You can have complex crafting systems with dead economies and vice versa. You can have a "revolutionary" twitch-based combat combined with the drollest possible content-access structure.
None of this was mentioned in my post.
Please move on from UO vs EQ dichotomy because it is sooooo old that it smells funny.
And besides UO is older than EQ, so I find that the argument lurking behind your post that a next-gen MMORPG must be a skill-based sandbox utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
Did you even read my post? If you did I fear for your comprehension skills.
WAR is a billion light years ahead of what Darkfall is going to be because it features evolved and revolutionary gameplay concepts. Darkfall is just a UO2 in glorious 3D without a cute setting... just like AOC is a gimped EQ2 thing with a polygon overload.
Now you are just trolling. First of all, I never mentioned Darkfall once because honestly I'm not very excited for it, just watching it. Second, you are claiming WAR's recycled features are light years ahead of a game that we know so little about? Trolling, simple as that. How is WAR's features evolved and revolutionary? I would say its more like a reincarnation
Bad troll is bad...
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Well, as a game player since the early 70's and a early dnd player, I can see what he means. It's kind of funny how some pro-sandboxer people want a game to be free form and at the same time have strict rules as to what it means to be free form. Class vs skill based is still limited if you look at it from the right perspective.
Well, as a game player since the early 70's and a early dnd player, I can see what he means. It's kind of funny how some pro-sandboxer people want a game to be free form and at the same time have strict rules as to what it means to be free form. Class vs skill based is still limited if you look at it from the right perspective.
Personally I find skill-based RPG systems much more appealing in principle. GURPS is still the best RPG system for me (to the uninitiated Fallout was based on GURPS). However it is all about the IP and the intended feel of the game. For example, GURPS(-alike) worked great in Fallout, EVE online system is very good but this is because these are that kinds of games. WAR on the other hand would be awful with a skill-based classless system because it is simply not conductive to the goals of the game - fast, casual fun. Huge armies clashing, the iconicness of the world.
I'm not saying that a class-less skill-based system wouldn't work for Warhammer IP. Heck, you could make it pretty sandboxy almost like EVE. WHFRPG uses an ingenious class-based system that is, incredibly, skill-based and level-less as well. (Read it up, it really is great stuff). It would make a great MMO, but it wouldn't be WAR - the RvR would definitely get watered down and the "fast and furious" feel would suffer.
The point is that game systems and features are just TOOLS to accomplish something and that is to create a great game. A game designer makes choices between different game systems and looks for the ways how to combine and interlock them to create a feel he wants. Being skill-based or sandbox should never be a goal, these are just elements to be picked up or discarded during creation process.
Another "anything non-sandbox is a lame WoW clone" thread?
Sheesh man. Just because it isn't a sandbox doesn't mean its an uninnovative piece of garbage WoW clone. And what is a WoW clone anyway? WoW ripped off EQ in the first place, and simply stole Warhammer's artistic direction. Just because an MMO comes out with unit frames and hotbars doesn't mean its a clone. The MMO genre as whole consists of quests, XP, and items. Just because a game isn't totally abstract like EVE doesn't mean it sucks.
If you buy an FPS game you expect to run around and shoot things. People need to stop treating the MMO genre like a creativity vortex where ever game is a totally different playstyle.
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This sums it up. Darkfall is vaporware, but it stands in the place for all those people that want something, but don't even know what it is.
They have this feeling that there is some ultimate fun game just waiting to be made, but no one has quite made it yet. However, they are on the verge of making this ultimate fun game, because the MMORPGs are kinda fun, but not quite the ULTIMATE FUN GAME.
So everything that isn't the ultimate fun game, is just more of the same. They will probably never find the ultimate fun game, and will always say every MMORPG is just more of the same, because there is no such thing as the ultimate fun game.
Meanwhile, we'll play WAR, and wait for the next fun MMORPG to release.
Either you like MMORPGs or you don't. If you don't like 'em, and you're waiting on the ultimate fun game, there's really not much point in posting on an MMORPG forum IMO.
Admit it, you didn't even read the original post did you? You only read the title and responded.
That, or your comprehension skills are absolutely pitiful.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
100% true.
Skills have nothing to do with sandbox games, and a game based on skills can be the most boring grindfest ever.
And twitch based games are always, repeat always, going to end up being First Person Shooters. FPS games are fun, but when the combat is based on twitch, levels and skills don't mean much, they just add a bit of flavor to the FPS, nothing more.
I saw my brother play it for about an hour. When I was watching him, I got the feeling of WoW, not EQ2, not daoc, not lotro, swg, eve or age of conan but specifically world of warcraft. Therefore I think WAR is a wow clone, and I really don't give a shit if you think I am wrong.
This is exactly who you are. Need i remind you that you posted previously how you wanted WAR to fail so YOUR type of game can get a shot?
Your past 3 created topics have involved WAR, despite you not liking it, you not interested in the style of the game, and you wondering why people actually are people badmouthing their game with incorrect trash. Heck if i were to do the same thing to swg/eve etc that you and your people are saying about WAR, you flat out would turn a 360 and ignore your "mediator" skills.
You are a very clever troll i'll give it to you. You are very sly with your hate and trashing.
This is exactly who you are. Need i remind you that you posted previously how you wanted WAR to fail so YOUR type of game can get a shot?
Your past 3 created topics have involved WAR, despite you not liking it, you not interested in the style of the game, and you wondering why people actually are people badmouthing their game with incorrect trash. Heck if i were to do the same thing to swg/eve etc that you and your people are saying about WAR, you flat out would turn a 360 and ignore your "mediator" skills.
You are a very clever troll i'll give it to you. You are very sly with your hate and trashing.
Yes, I fall into that group. What is your point? Me falling into one of the groups just helps me understand that group more.
Again what is your point? I was simply pointing out the two different groups of players as I see it, and why they would feel the way they do. What exactly do you have to add to the conversation? This post had nothing to do with my feelings about WAR. This post had to do with why people feel the way they do. But clearly you can't quite understand that, and frankly the fact that you seem to be personally trolling me and my threads is a little disturbing. I really don't care if you don't like me, or don't like my ideas and opinions. But following me around personally attacking me is worst than any "trolling"(Trolling in a sense that I don't agree with you so I am automatically labeled a troll) I am doing.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
This is exactly who you are. Need i remind you that you posted previously how you wanted WAR to fail so YOUR type of game can get a shot?
Your past 3 created topics have involved WAR, despite you not liking it, you not interested in the style of the game, and you wondering why people actually are people badmouthing their game with incorrect trash. Heck if i were to do the same thing to swg/eve etc that you and your people are saying about WAR, you flat out would turn a 360 and ignore your "mediator" skills.
You are a very clever troll i'll give it to you. You are very sly with your hate and trashing.
Yes, I fall into that group. What is your point? Me falling into one of the groups just helps me understand that group more.
It does help you understand, but at the same time, your post was meant as a "warhammer is less of a game. And we can see it and that's why we hate it." It is warhammer bashing.
Again what is your point? I was simply pointing out the two different groups of players as I see it, and why they would feel the way they do. What exactly do you have to add to the conversation? This post had nothing to do with my feelings about WAR. This post had to do with why people feel the way they do. But clearly you can't quite understand that, and frankly the fact that you seem to be personally trolling me and my threads is a little disturbing. I really don't care if you don't like me, or don't like my ideas and opinions. But following me around personally attacking me is worst than any "trolling"(Trolling in a sense that I don't agree with you so I am automatically labeled a troll) I am doing.
This post had everything to do with your feelings for WAR. Otherwise you wouldn't be posting about it, and clearly labeling WAR as a inferior game in EVERY one of your posts.
I actually like you, i find you a rather pleasant person on these forums, and if you weren't trolling for sandbox games and against a game i'm interested in, i'd actually agree with a large portion of your other posts.
But i'm not exactly following you. I am merely seeing thread after thread come from you against a game you have absolutely no interest in.
Your first post was obvious a war troll, your second post was a way to discredit fans and players of the game who defend the game, and the third one is giving a reasoning behind the sandbox trolls, as if to bring relief to the WAR fans and to excuse the sandbox trolls, while at the same time as bringing down WAR.
All three posts are quite brilliant if you look at it from their meanings,
This is exactly who you are. Need i remind you that you posted previously how you wanted WAR to fail so YOUR type of game can get a shot?
Your past 3 created topics have involved WAR, despite you not liking it, you not interested in the style of the game, and you wondering why people actually are people badmouthing their game with incorrect trash. Heck if i were to do the same thing to swg/eve etc that you and your people are saying about WAR, you flat out would turn a 360 and ignore your "mediator" skills.
You are a very clever troll i'll give it to you. You are very sly with your hate and trashing.
Yes, I fall into that group. What is your point? Me falling into one of the groups just helps me understand that group more.
It does help you understand, but at the same time, your post was meant as a "warhammer is less of a game. And we can see it and that's why we hate it." It is warhammer bashing.
Again what is your point? I was simply pointing out the two different groups of players as I see it, and why they would feel the way they do. What exactly do you have to add to the conversation? This post had nothing to do with my feelings about WAR. This post had to do with why people feel the way they do. But clearly you can't quite understand that, and frankly the fact that you seem to be personally trolling me and my threads is a little disturbing. I really don't care if you don't like me, or don't like my ideas and opinions. But following me around personally attacking me is worst than any "trolling"(Trolling in a sense that I don't agree with you so I am automatically labeled a troll) I am doing.
This post had everything to do with your feelings for WAR. Otherwise you wouldn't be posting about it, and clearly labeling WAR as a inferior game in EVERY one of your posts.
I actually like you, i find you a rather pleasant person on these forums, and if you weren't trolling for sandbox games and against a game i'm interested in, i'd actually agree with a large portion of your other posts.
But i'm not exactly following you. I am merely seeing thread after thread come from you against a game you have absolutely no interest in.
Your first post was obvious a war troll, your second post was a way to discredit fans and players of the game who defend the game, and the third one is giving a reasoning behind the sandbox trolls, as if to bring relief to the WAR fans and to excuse the sandbox trolls, while at the same time as bringing down WAR.
All three posts are quite brilliant if you look at it from their meanings,
I'll admit, I did fall into a bit of a "WAR bashing" trend for a bit, but I have tried my best to stop and am refraining from further posting my feelings about WAR in every thread I want to :P
If this thread came off as a WAR bashing thread, I apologize as it was not my intentions. I simply felt the need to post this after seeing a lot of people calling WAR a WoW-clone, and a lot of people claiming WAR was absolutely nothing like WoW, and thinking a bit about how each group looks at WAR and what causes one group to react one way and the other group to say the complete opposite. I promise, I meant nothing more than that, and if my feelings about the game leaked into the post, it was incidental, as I was just using my view of the game as a basis to relate how people like me look at the game.
I don't think WAR is necessarily inferior per say, and any implications of that is strictly due to frustrations from the sheer amount of games that, according to my theory, the group I fall into see as similar to WAR.
Yes, WAR is a good game from a stand point of release polish and bugginess. It is pretty polished and fairly bug free for where it is in it's life. Whether the actual structure of the game is good is completely subjective, and as you already know I don't like it. But I assure you I never meant for this thread to be about that.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I completely agree, and I can relate. I am this "Wow" generation, and I think WAR is different, but I don't think that it is because of levels/races/classes, I think it is because of the mechanics of the game.
Just my opinion.