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Getting a little tired of balance whining
neodavie
Member Posts: 278
So I kind of feel like I'm going slowly retarded reading these forums bitching about what classes order has vs. what classes destro have and that "omfg we need balance". So here's a helpful tool:
Rune priest=Shaman
Iron breaker=Black Orc
Engineer=Magus
Bright wizard=Sorcerer
Warrior priest= Disciple of kaine
Witchhunter=Witch elf
White lion=Squigherder
Archmage=Zealot
Shadow warrior=Marauder
Sword master=Chosen
Wait what's this each class on one side represents a class on the other? Yes I know it's hard to understand seeing as how they have different names and all, but Destro has in fact the exact same classes as Order. Now you may say, "But wait a minute runepriests get a knockback OMG Balance." Yeah I hear you, but you see so do Shaman. You see each side actually has the same moves, they're just jumbled around, it's not too hard to figure out.
"Hey hold on there BW do a lot of damage from far." Yes yes, but so does a sorcerer, as does a mage in WoW, they are ranged DPS, hence from a distance they do a lot of damage, but have tiny hit points.
I feel like when I look at the game it's not that hard to understand. But then I look at forum posts and see that some people absolutely have no idea that just because they didn't spec into their tree to get a knockback move or something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist for your side. Becasue I hate to break it to you guys who are bitching and moaning, but these are simple concepts to understand.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
Comments
Fixed your post for you
www.massively.com/2008/06/04/massively-goes-to-war-the-classes-of-warhammer-in-a-nutshell/
If they dont make it so I can beat every class easily I am gonna cancel my sub along with all 700 of my guild members. GG Mythic fails because every other game I have played (actually only WOW, played a resto druid) has perfect class balance.
Waiting for game that releases only 1 class that uses 1 ability until then I am done and all MMO's are doomed.
Playing- Guild Wars 2, SWTOR
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Fixed your post for you
www.massively.com/2008/06/04/massively-goes-to-war-the-classes-of-warhammer-in-a-nutshell/
Haha, thanks. It's actually kind of funny you did that because I looked at that exact article myself. However I adjusted my list to fit in with the classes that are available from launch until now. As it stands not I'm pretty sure my assertion is more true, what's more I think we'll soon find:
Blackguard=knights of the blazing sun
For the simple fact that both order and destro need another solid tanking class. But yeah I'm glad you refferenced that article because I based my own opinion on it and tweaked it a bit to fit for the classes as they stand today.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
one last thing Banthis, not to beat a dead horse here, but note the age of the article. It was written not only before the game came out, but before they knew these classes were not going to be present at launch.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
thewarjournal.com/2008/10/bright-wizard-and-sorceress-one-way-mirror/
Yes, every class has another class on the other side that plays very similar to the other. But if you take the time to evaluate each ability that compares to the other you will see that one has an advantage over their so called mirror. The above link only covers the Bright Wizard and the Sorceress.
well one this i think you need to take into account is that as you said the abilities are all jumbled around. Which i think matters more than you think.
My main is a 40 witch elf, and my counterpart, the witch hunter doesnt get abilities in nearly the same order.
Mainly the healing debuff. On my witch elf i got it at like level 8 i think. 45% outgoing healing reduction. And on a witch hunter you get it in the mid 30s. That is a huge gameplay difference that i really do not understand. It makes witchelves hundreds times more deadly vs a healer than a witch hunter in more than half of the game.
There are many other examples of setups like this. Like engineer vs magus, a magus is pretty weak pretty much through the entire game when compared to an engineer just because of the order and flavor of their abilties.
Most people are commenting on the game they are playing right now, which is probably tier 1 or 2 for alot of people. I know mythic has balanced the game more towards the higher tiers but people are still going to talk about the tier they are currently in. On my server there are a hundred or so 40s, but thousands of levels 1-20.
Also the population of the classes is a really huge factor. Chosen are probably the most popular class on Destruction and they are a tank, where on order I would say Bright Wizard or Shadow Warrior are closer to the most popular on the order side. Tanks REALLY sway the result of a battle, especially in scenarios like Nordenwatch where that one initial battle at the fort pretty much determines the winner of the scenario. Tanks do less damage but can actually be kept alive under concentrated fire from a small amount of healers.
I would say this, both classes have their advantages and disadvantages over eachother. And what I think we can say in that respect we can say that the classes are balanced.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
You have to remember too, folks, your character only plays as well as you play it regardless of game balance. So while my char could have the same skills as another char, doesn't mean we're going to be stuck in battle forever, because I will make sure I have the better advantage, hopefully the other player tries the same thing, otherwise they are just another NPC.
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
They did not change the balance of the game. If you play any of those toons you'd know that. A Chosen plays nothing like a Swordmaster. A chosen is an Aura based Tank the Swordmaster is a pure tank like the Black Orc. The Knight of the Blazing sun is an Aura based Order Tank which is why so many of the people on order side are upset about balance they have no way to use similiar strategies and find a sense of 'balance' against groups that use a chosen.
Those corralations in the articles have never changed they were spoken about numerous times before that article and after that article.
Even the Zealot / Rune priest still stands true. A rune priest adn a zealot play essentially exactly alike. While the Archmage and the Shaman play almost exactly a like. The arch mage gets a nice shiny blue stream life draining attack and the Shaman gets a nice shiny green one.
I've been following this game since the release of the first newsletter I'm not saying I know more only that I knwo they havent' changed the class rock paper scissors infrastructure that much and order and destruction both took a beating by losing tank types that the other side got to keep. The rest has NEVER EVER changed not ever.
Um okaaaay. I hope ur being sarcastic.
I'm not trying to make you freak out by what I said, I'm just saying this article was written before those classes were removed. I was only making a chart showing the existing classes. not projected classes. We'll see in December what happens. Oh and Caps-lock doesn't automatically make you right.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
I'm not trying to make you freak out by what I said, I'm just saying this article was written before those classes were removed. I was only making a chart showing the existing classes. not projected classes. We'll see in December what happens. Oh and Caps-lock doesn't automatically make you right.
Your chart even using the existing classes is wrong. A shaman and a runepriest are not mirror of each other at all. The mirroring of the classes has never changed no matter what article i find or you find or you believe the format I gave you is the format they are still using which is why people cry about balance. Its not the only balance issue but the biggest one.
The mix matches you made that I corrected did not make any damn sense a Rune Priest has never and still never plays like a Shaman at all. He plays like a Zealot.
From an arch type stand point the game is imbalanced. It has made the game lopsided depending on the build up of either side's teams in battle. I'll be glad the day we get a Black Guard so we can do to order what their Iron breakers do to us.
Ok your chart is superior to mine, I'm fine with admitting that. But what I want ton know is where you actually see the balance issues as it stands. I say that endgame it fully balances and takes into account the different spells and thier placement. Are you saying that you find endgame to be lopsided because runepriests have knockbacks? Because Destro has plenty, Zealots have one, as do shaman, marauders. so I'm a bit confused as to the balance. I think the point of all this wasn't the order of the chart, but rather that each class does have a corresponding class on the other side. Now if you want we can argue placement on a new thread, but that's not really the point here.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
Banthis is right on the matchings to the T.....only real imbalance there could possible be right now is they have chosen and we have ironbreakers...which will be fixed in december......other then that i dont see how people get imbalance issues either personally.
Ok your chart is superior to mine, I'm fine with admitting that. But what I want ton know is where you actually see the balance issues as it stands. I say that endgame it fully balances and takes into account the different spells and thier placement. Are you saying that you find endgame to be lopsided because runepriests have knockbacks? Because Destro has plenty, Zealots have one, as do shaman, marauders. so I'm a bit confused as to the balance. I think the point of all this wasn't the order of the chart, but rather that each class does have a corresponding class on the other side. Now if you want we can argue placement on a new thread, but that's not really the point here.
play a chosen..now go play any of the tanks on the opposing side. They have no way to reciprocate similiar attacks and abilities and advantages. Now play an Iron Breaker to lvl 30 and play one of the destruction ones to lvl 30...you'll see that the IB is inherantely superiour to the other tanks when it comes to knock backs and dps. The balancing issues in my opinion are minor at best but severly debilitating depending on the group builds you come up against. I know when ever we come up against a group with lots of IB's and Engineers we're fucked. Engineers magnet other players to him adn the IB tosses them all off cliffs or into lava.
The Order side's puntings are more like field goals compared to anything destruction can do.
On the other hand we have the chosen with all of his auras something they dont have at all. This is again an imbalance.
The squig herder is severly debilitated compared to his counter part in the white lion. Infact its basically pointless to play one in a small group outside of PvE. I do it anyway because Ive figured out how to play around it but its highly annoying at times because everyone and their brother targets me. The imbalance to its counter part is so severe that its impossible for a squig herder to defeat a white lion, there's supposed to be a 50/50 chance but its more like 90/10 in favor of the white lion.
Infact there's very few if any classes I can take on my own I'm essentially a scavanger doomed to pick off the weak and fleeing. Even the shadow warrior a skirmisher on the Order side has it easier than Squig herders but not by much.
The magus is the most glaring example of imbalance. Compared to his counter part the Engineer he sucks ultimate balls and still continues to suck balls even at T4 which is why there are so few of them. We techincally need Magus's but they're so damn gimped when it comes to their damage out put, any sort of aoe, and armor...well honestly i feel bad for Magus's.
I love WAR don't get me wrong I'm not going anywhere but to deny the truth that there is some imbalance issues is just flat out fanboist lying. I get tired of the complaints about balancing when instead we should be speculating on what the Patch 1.1 balance changes are. Im even more sick of threads complaining about complaining threads.
Awesome, I think you raised excellent points, but even in your argument you contradicted yourself. I mean here, "The balancing issues in my opinion are minor at best but severly debilitating depending on the group builds you come up against. I know when ever we come up against a group with lots of IB's and Engineers we're fucked. Engineers magnet other players to him adn the IB tosses them all off cliffs or into lava." you make the point that depending on the make up of your group vs. the make up of another can determine the outcome of a battle. I would say that's pretty obvious wouldn't you?
I mean wouldn't you say that citing one specific example of when a group make up for one side is better to another group make up doesn't necissarily speak to the entirety of the game? No. But I would say that there does exist an imbalance between chosen and IB, that's deffinantly true.
When you spoke about the imbalance of knockbacks vs auras wouldnt you say that that is exactly what balances it? We don't have the knockbacks, they don't have the Auras. It's essentially addition by subtraction but it seems to work.
The most interesting thing you wrote was in regards to the squig herder vs. the white lion. You say they're unbalanced but then immediately say, "Infact its basically pointless to play one in a small group outside of PvE. I do it anyway because Ive figured out how to play around it..." So you say it's more difficult, but players are able to overcome it, or at least you personally are. I find that interesting, because doesn't that show a better understanding of the class vs. a lack of balance?
You comparison betwen the engineer and Magus is dead on though, there should be an overhaul on magus DPS at least to compensate for how gimped they are in other areas.
I don't think it's Fanboi-ism that leads me to say I've found the game balanced in T4, I guess it's just my experience. But what I will say is that Scenarios I win as much as I lose, and keep sieges can really be a toss up depending on your group.
As for the last thing you said, which I can only assume is an attack on me, if you don't like complaining about complaining threads, why are you spending so much time thinking up honest and thoughtful answers? Because I've honestly felt like I've gained some insight as to why people think there are balancing issues just because of your posts (seriously I didn't know some of these things).
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
So the OP has zero knowledge about the mirror classes and yet chose to post something regarding class balance. Well, that is new .... NOT!
lol... enjoy your BW till the fun lasts. Nerf stick is coming!
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Osbourne Cox: You are the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I don't represent Hardbodies.
Osbourne Cox: I know very well what you represent. You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: You are part of a league of morons. Oh, yes. You see you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. But guess what. Today, I win.
Shadow warrior=marauder HAHAHahahaHAHAHAHahahahahahahhaha oh man, oh wow...I haven't laughed that hard since I saw that Guild Wars video on Youtube, "the internet if for porn" oh man....wooooooo yah...NO..
When Bright Wizards are doing twice the damage as anyone else in Scenarios then there is class balance problems.
Waiting for the next thing
If your tired of posts about fbalance whining stop reading posts about balance whining
dur