CoH Review for Adults

Weapon-X · October 2004

Too much kiddie flaming in this forum. It gets old. I guess I sort of remember identifying so much with a game that I took it as a personal attack if people didn't like it, but I was twelve at the time, and frankly, I've grown up since then.

Here's my take on CoH, from the viewpoint of an "all grown up" gamer that doesn't feel the need to either gloss over or exaggerate a game's strengths or faults.

CoH looks amazing, and the controls are incredible. From that standpoint, it's one of the best games I've ever played. Something as simple as "jumping" just feels right in CoH, unlike a lot of other games. Further, CoH's Teamseek and UI in general is probably the best in the business. Other games feel kludgy and unrefined in comparison.

So why don't I like it? Gameplay. Now, I expect the inevitable fanboy attack. But this isn't for fanboys, nor is it for Haters, it's an honest assessement by a guy that has no ego involved with the game. In most games, you get stronger as you level. It's a basic premise of RPG gaming. You gain levels, you get stronger. That is not the case in CoH.

In CoH, your main attack at level 1 will be your main attack at level 40. That's just the way it is. As you go up levels, most classes get nothing but situational talents that don't really add that much to your general effectiveness. I'll admit that this statement is debatable- some classes get some fairly useful powers. But for the most part, it seems like you're just killing time to get Stamina, or killing time to get Haste, or killing time to get your Travel Power.

But let's ignore that for a second, and move on to something that ISN'T debatable: the Enhancement structure. After you hit level 20, you are literally getting weaker each level until you can afford to upgrade to the next level of Enhancments. The so-called "levels" of the enhancements are meaningless- you'd have to be entirely stupid not to realize that a level 40 SO doesn't improve a level 40's powers any more than a level 20 SO improves a level 20's powers. The entire Enhancement level structure is intended to do only one thing: give you a place to dump your Influence.

So, your powers never really get any better once you've fully socketed them with SOs- all they really do is "wear out" so you have to replace them. You get new ones every five levels or so, and then get progressively weaker until you can upgrade back to "full strength" enhancments.

This is not something I enjoy. I enjoy making progress. Merely trying to maintain the status quo isn't very fun for me. So combine that with the fact that you only get new powers every other level, and that a lot of the powers are either garbage that you're forced to take to get something good, (ala health and sprint to get Stamina) or are situational (Crippling Axe Kick) or just suck (Moment of Glory), and what I ended up with was a game where I never felt much stronger at level 50 than I did at level 20.

I'm not going to say that CoH isn't fun. I still log in occasionally and run a few missions. But I can't even look at the EXP bar, because it just frustrates me to know that I have eight levels to go with my new character before I'll be able to get a power that's even remotely useable.

Oh, and they really need Loot. Sorry, but they do. Enhancements aren't loot.

________________________________
They care. We don't. They win.

Thoom · October 2004

I agree. They should make enhancements you slot at lower lvls that lvl with you like DAoC artifacts for example, and give you benefits. I dunno just an idea.

Sanctus_Mors · October 2004

In reply to your loot observation; I believe that Cryptic is heading that direction examples of current loot is the Accolades and the longer temp powers like the Nemesis Staff.

Personally, I like that a power you take early is still viable later in the game as opposed to taking a power early then never using it later.

Manchine · October 2004

You know Weapon-X. You sound so much like a child its not even funny. Sounds like to me you just need to grow up.

Goob · October 2004

Originally posted by Manchine

You know Weapon-X. You sound so much like a child its not even funny. Sounds like to me you just need to grow up.

To save everyone from making flameful posts, because that will just be a waste of time, I'm going to simply point out that this is just from a child that thinks he is funny. He probably didn't even read your post. It would have been too long for a youth such as him.

kmimmorpg · October 2004

Originally posted by Weapon-X

But let's ignore that for a second, and move on to something that ISN'T debatable: the Enhancement structure. After you hit level 20, you are literally getting weaker each level until you can afford to upgrade to the next level of Enhancments. The so-called "levels" of the enhancements are meaningless- you'd have to be entirely stupid not to realize that a level 40 SO doesn't improve a level 40's powers any more than a level 20 SO improves a level 20's powers. The entire Enhancement level structure is intended to do only one thing: give you a place to dump your Influence.

Speaking of enhancements...why bother to give them these interesting descriptions when they do exactly the same thing? Portacio Ind Internal Munitions is the same as Dragon Rage which is the same as Fury of Joule which is the same as Xenon Exposure.

SuperZwerver · October 2004

I just want to comment on some things you mentioned

In CoH, your main attack at level 1 will be your main attack at level 40

This is true, but isnt this the same in lots of other MMORPS? As a mage you would get Flame Bolt, and a couple of lvls later you get Flame Bolt II then a few lvls later you get Flame Bolt III. Games like EQ and DAoC did this I think. In CoH the power just gets auto updated.

Then about the enhancement system. You said that the enhancements get weaker because you level up, also true. But isnt this the same as in other games again? Only then you dont call them enhancements but armor and weapons etc. A lvl 47 warrior with a lvl 40 weapon will of course do less damage then a lvl 47 warrior with a lvl 50 weapon.

You gain levels, you get stronger. That is not the case in CoH.

Uhm why is this not the case in CoH? Of course you get stronger, not stat wise or anything but your damage of course increases as well as your HP and End.

I like CoH's systems a lot more then the systems in other games. Oh well, my point is that CoH really isnt the different from other MMORPG's but it just does things in a different way. Which is a good thing IMO

Mentat · October 2004

This post musta been pre-patch. Because your attack at lvl 1 is not your main attack at the high end lvl's with respec'n and all. I use my abilites I recieved at lvl 1 but, it's not my primary. This I think is better than games like EQ where your spells become obsolete as opposed to becoming more powerful as you lvl. If you think your abilities aren't getting more powerful.... go attack a lvl 5 mob with your lvl 1 ability at a high lvl... you will do an insane amount of dmg to the lil feller. Anyway, I'm assuming this post was pre-patch cause if not.. it's just a bunch of bs from a bias'd gamer... (I'm refering to the first post of course)

Mentat

RaddMonz · October 2004

Mentat - I've seen you posting for a while now, so you should know that Weapon-X comes back every 1 1/2-2 months like clockwork (pun intended) to "fan the flames" - even though he's says he isn't.

If you search back through his prior posts (which are mostly all the same), you'll notice that he probably hasn't played the game since May or early June.

Is his opinion valid? - to him it is, but to me it's well out of date & totally irrelevant.

But of course, this is just my adult opinion.

RaddMonz
Hz: Sobuk il Radd / retired
AC2: Kaled il Radd / retired
CoH: Mr E-Man, Energy Arc, IG-2112MD & Master TimeLord - Freedom Server

Autumnfae · October 2004

Actually, even if the information is somewhat outdated, he still has some valid points. As much as I enjoy CoH, I agree on several. However, as SuperZwerver correctly pointed out, some of these problems are not unique to this game. For example, I agree on Weapon-x's asserment that the Enhancement system needs tweaking, but SuperZwerver was correct in stating that in other games, these are called items and armor. At least Enhancements don't interfere with the way my character looks -- I would prefer that armor be "invisible" and that character appearance is determined primarily at character creation as opposed to the need to get the same armor every uber warrior/archer/mage/cleric archetype has.

On the loot, I disagree simply for this reason: it all but eliminates the camping problem. In CoH, you have perhaps teams of players bouncing around Perez Park for a shot at taking down Kraken. In other games, you have tons of individual players crowding up much smaller areas to kill a single monster for that elusive rare item. While loot gives you that warm fuzzy of owning something, it's not worth dealing with the camping problem.

In many ways, CoH takes some of the same basic systems of other games and remakes them in ways that really do work better overall. I imagine that, because the type of game it is really is a first in a sea of fantasy, scifi, and shooter MMOs, it's a paradigm shift that a lot of gamers can't quite grapple with. Many of the things that are complained about in CoH are the same things that gamers playing games like EQII or WoW believe give their preferred games "character", "content", or "challenge", when really, all that's needed for a lot of players is simply a matter of attitude adjustment.

Anofalye · October 2004

I disagree, yes some will say I am a fanboi, but here is why.

- With each level you get much stronger, in every aspect of the game. If you go hit a level 1 mob, you will see the damage increase with any new level, and adding level of enhancement will increase the damage as well. I dont recall seeing my damage improve that much against lower level mobs in any other game as I outlevel them. As a level 1 go hit that level 10 troll and see the damage, try again at level 2...it improve...and every level/enhancement will help.

- My attacks didnt change much, but they CHANGE. New powers and new attacks. Instead of using Hack and slash, they improve to some others, it is FAR from perfect, but it is MUCH better then auto-attack. The new powers CHANGE you a little, maybe not enought, but they are far more then situationnal. Going from high damage to extreme damage with knockdown is a huge improve. After level 38 there is NO NEW power content, so the game is limited to level 38 as far as power content is concerned, which is to few for my tastes, I want more and more and more, but I wont say the game is bad because want more of it.

- When you say some some kiddies feel attacked and all, well, it is you that say that they are kiddies, I didnt see them insult you before you insult them, so from my perspective, it is a standstill at best, since you are, like everyone else, expressing your opinion, and you try to make sure others readers see your arguers as ''kiddies'', talk about maturity if you want, I shrug. A mature adult will not feel the need to discuss about maturity, and by simply answering you, I show lack of maturity as well.

- The enhancement structure. In % the increase is the same if you compare against a mob the same level of the enhancement, yes, however, in raw number, it is much better. I, for myself, as fanboi #1 prefer an honest way that tell me I improve but no better then a rusty sword was for a level 5, it get me an idea. You are also missing the fact that some enhancements have 2 effects, however, the game is fine tuned to it player based and they understand that most level 20 dont want them or to farm for them, they want a casual friendly game with no farming, so they come up for the folks with more time at around level 40. Not to mention that in EVERY other game, your character go down the shaft, each new level mean you suck more and more compare to the new mobs your level, in CoH, it is not true, you are always better. A level 40 kill a minion level 40 easier then a level 1 kill a minion level 1. Now let talk about EQ if you want...a level 1 melee in EQ OWN 3 level 2 rats NP, but at 40, the melee have issue dealing with a level 35, now that is regression...in CoH, you might not progress much, but you progress, always.

- At level 42 I can often kill lieutnants in 1 hit, boss in 2 hits. At level 30 I was rarely able to kill lieutnants in 1 hit, and boss where always 3 hits or more...at level 1 a lieutnant was definitely 3 hits! So the evolution is there, it is progressive, and it is HARD to perceive. I agree they need to make it more visible so peoples understand exactly how they are better, otherwise, many persons will miss the fact that they are stronger then ever and they dont even realize it.

- (new points) The death system, someone dying is not experiencing any form of setback, he will progress slower, which mean he will be stronger when he level. In DAoC where you have to pay for gear restoration or in EQ with pure raw XP lost, this was the opposite of progress.

- (new point) More slots make a HUGE difference, and all those powers stack up very well. If you take fighting, it help in battle.

- (new point) I have to find a timesink where I waste my time waiting on the computer...My endurance and hps are always rdy in less then 10 seconds, which is acceptable after a hard fight, I have to check enhancement, travel is wonderfull, I almost never NEED to do this or that precisely(blast the actual badges system), which mean I can do it my way, the way I prefer. If you like medding, travelling more then once the same long path very slowly, needing absolutely a group to even be able to breath, or maybe even a raid, or to do precisely a set of defined actions in a way intended, then no, CoH would ot be for you, they are not about enforcing timesinks or a ''vision'' on players, if it is not fun, they dont implement it...usually(spit at the actual badges system once more, I LOOOVE it myself mostly, but it is done the wrong way and it aggro many fellow players).

Most of CoH flaws are the facts most peoples dont understand the game and say about anything about it just because they are blind to the fact and how it evolve. You need more flashy signs of your evolution and I agree, the game lack them a LOT.

You want to complain against CoH, then complain at how they implement badges, that is messed up, but it is temporary, I am sure they are working on it. Or complain at it lack of PvP, raiding or tradeskilling. Blast the lack of VISIBLE evolution, not the evolution itself, because you evolve a LOT. But dont try to blast the best solo and grouping system that exist.

I didnt melee for 2679 at level 1 on a level 1 mob, and neither was I able to kill a lieutnant in 1 hit back then, I was certainly not able to kill a boss at level 1. At level 42 I solo some Arch Villain(of my level, was unable to pick on higher then me...for now).

- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''

starman999 · October 2004

Every game needs loot period....

This is simply a universal standard for gaming. The formula for success in an MMORPG is simply risk Vs Reward. In games like SWG where loot was insubstantial if not non existant people often wouldnt bother with the fighting only because there was no point. Most people will not risk the death of their character without the possibility of a sufficient payout.

I can honestly say if this game had as much invested in loot and PVP as it does in graphics and gameplay people would forget about other MMOs alltogether.

I have posted it before but I feel it is relevant so I will repeat it here.

Unless the expansion city of villains adds some sort of rewards in the form of "loot" then there will be no point in having villains at all. You may as well let the heroes fight each other because without some form of reward or point it is just dueling.

VILLAINS DO NOT GO LOOKING FOR FIGHTS WITH SUPER HEROES. It is important that the game makers understand that villains are not the selfless pillars of humanity that heroes are. They are villains only because they seek personal gain outside of the confines of the law. If they are not allowed to pursue and gain either riches or some form of world domination complete with henchmen and hideouts then there will be no difference between them and the heroes.

ROLEPLAYERS UNITE!!!!!

Anofalye · October 2004

Loot = double effect enhancement(yes yes, accuracy and damage on 1 enhancement).

You dont see it, well, your a casual and I am glad for you! However, casuals in majority dont want loot! They will not harm the majority for the will of the minority. The majority that want loot are hardcores and powergamers like me...I am CRAVING for more, and they will think for me, in time, they need to find a way that dont go against casuals, and badges system is NOT working.

Hopefully, CoV will NOT affect CoH in any form, any add on will only affect the new areas, not the old, so a casual can always stay free from it and maybe go hunt a little in some zones of CoV that are set by CoH old rules as well. If they add loot that make you better, then they make all CoH pointless and ghetto and the whole game become a PvP only game, and it is not the intent so I certainly wish they wont do that mistake. If something is better in CoV, then everyone will need it, however, if the new stuff in CoV only affect CoV, then anyone is free to play whatever part of the game they want, as they dont need it. (everyone always need the best for their toon in what they are doing, always, so they will be working toward it or quitting, so you suggest to make a PvP or quit game by implementing loot earnable in CoV only, which would be wrong, so very wrong, they would lose all their player base right away, and the PvP player based can be earned without losing the PvE, the best PvP uberness need to be earned in PvP only, not in basic old CoH, but it cant give the best non-CoV uberness as well, that belong to CoH areas(and the clones in CoV that are non-PvP))

- "Solo is, will always be, the main market. A MMORPG that succeed with little or no solo appeal is doing great considering they are ignoring the main player base.''

GEOHDE · October 2004

I think this is one of the best games out there right now not haveing to fuss over gear and loot.. gives you much more time to get to the real point of every game the lvl grind..i'v only been playing for about 10 days now and to me it did not get boring after lvl 20 and at 26 i got my new favoright skill

it got much better i dont see how anyone would not love this game but to each his own and after im done lvlin my scapper i'll make another char.. this game is still somewhat new alot of things can happen in the years to come

Killer 100%
Achiever 53%
Explorer 33%
Socializer 13%
sounds about right... with my passion for killing and my hate for people

kmimmorpg · October 2004

Originally posted by Autumnfae

On the loot, I disagree simply for this reason: it all but eliminates the camping problem. In CoH, you have perhaps teams of players bouncing around Perez Park for a shot at taking down Kraken. In other games, you have tons of individual players crowding up much smaller areas to kill a single monster for that elusive rare item. While loot gives you that warm fuzzy of owning something, it's not worth dealing with the camping problem.

Issue 2 introduced badges. People camp for badges already. There even is a badge you can get in the tutorial zone. I went to the back of the area where most noobs don't venture to get the badge - but I wouldn't count on everybody doing that.

Scot · November 2004

I see this guy may just be doing regular grief posts but I will reply as if he is genuine ands his post certainly seems considered not griefing.

The argument about not getting any stronger is hard to understand, as a fighter in another MMORG I hit with a sword and mob gets damaged, lev 1 to 50

In CoH you get new powers which do different types of attacks more powerfully. There are exceptions, usually one power in a powerset no one picks but thats it. And you use the powerslot saved to get something else.

The -not debatable- point about enhancements makes certain assumptions. You seem to want enhancements that never stop getting better. Atm I think we can increase upto 200%. What would you think was ok? 500%? 2000%? This is a non argument, we gain strength as we level, I dont expect to be enhanced more as well.

Do you want Wolverine claws of Superness? A mission were your claws become better than any other players? Feel free to join an exsisting MMORG where you will need 12 hrs of game play and the perfect team to get them. That sort of thing is not content in my eyes just a way of making players use up hours to get an item.

Jodokai · November 2004

Originally posted by Scot

Do you want Wolverine claws of Superness? A mission were your claws become better than any other players? Feel free to join an exsisting MMORG where you will need 12 hrs of game play and the perfect team to get them. That sort of thing is not content in my eyes just a way of making players use up hours to get an item.

Right because God forbid a player gets a sense of accomplishment from actally earning something

Scot · November 2004

Jodokai, so you think spending ages to get a piece of equipment which everyone else ends up with and needing people on the same quest at the same time so we all look the same in our new armour is enjoyable content? Then the same again next month? Each to their own I guess.

JoshFatal · November 2004

Every game needs loot period....

Of course. Every game needs stuff you have to camp hours for, or fight the same thing over and over again and essentially wait in line to be able to get. Every game also needs a steep death penalty system, a boring "auto-attack" combat system, and the same class/skill system every other game has.

CoH has loot. Enhancements are similar to equipment, and Inspirations are similar to items. It may not be as "cool" as getting rare armor so you can feel like you're actually better than other people at something in life, but in this game, it gets the job done.

For crying out loud, it's a SUPER HERO game. Equipment hunting, item collection, and crafting don't really fit into the general theme of things. Why would there be a certain criminal out there who spawns every few days and may drop a certain rare weapon or armor that super heroes would go after? While I do think there are some improvements that could be made to the game, and would welcome items that'd actually fit into the genre, I don't think the game needs the clich

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