As for GTCs, I don't really agree with letting people use out-of-game resources to purchase in-game resources, but given that gold sellers are a fact of life in any MMO that has a functional economy I think CCP has made the best choice by giving people a sanctioned method of doing it that cuts the resellers / farmers out of the loop.
There are a few purists who might look down on players who buy/sell GTC, but for the most part the practice is accepted by the EVE community. Why? Because he who has the most ISK does not always win.
In fact, I've never lost a fight where my thoughts were, "crap, that guy must have purchased his ISK, so that's why he beat me". No, I'm flying a ship just as good as anyone elses, and my character skills are good so in the end, I lose fights for the most part due to "operator error" or plain jujst being outfought.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are a few poeple who think that buying their way to the top in EVE will mean they are untouchable. That mostly results in comedy killmails though.
As far as EVE GTC's go...they are a necessary evil. RMT companies will always be in MMO's, it's a given they are impossible to get rid of. What CCP has done by providing a controlled outlet for GTC sales is not only protect the ingame markets from mudflation, but actually reduce the market for illegal RMT isk sales.
Seriously anyone who thinks there is a way to eliminate all RMT from a MMO is delusional. Expect other MMO's to follow CCP's lead in the future.
Truthfully, I have no problems with GTC sellers, reason why? I love playing a quality game for free! I mean honestly, you're always going to have people who sell game currency, and overall I like the way that CCP handles EVE in general. Free updates, no need to buy extra expansions, free gaming if you can make the ISK.
I don't buy or sell GTC's, my RL cashflow does not get affected by my subscription fees but at the same time my ingame cashflow (and needs) do not warrant selling GTC's to make it work. On the other hand, while I could sell my isk I can't be bothered to swap ingame effort for a little RL cash. I'm quite neutral on the whole affair.
While I don't appreciate people bringing in RL cash to make up for their ingame inadequacies to me it doesn't change the game much since (as stated above) having isk doesn't neccesarily mean winning. Besides, IHAVE isk, more than I need. I CAN understand people who have limited free time and a good job to not want to bother with making cash ingame, if they need to work 30 minutes to buy isk that would take them 3 days to make then I completely understand that decision.
However, i don't see a difference between people buying isk from farmers or via GTC. They amount to the same thing regardless of what kind of moral value you want to put on it. Without GTC sellling there'd be less accounts for sure so CCP is happy, but at the same time those extra accounts will be mostly alts which means there's less interaction between players going on since you can do it all solo.
GTC's are the best answer to an evil that shouldn't exist.
I am a fairly new EVE player, I have never bought or sold GTCs, but I like the idea of them being in the game: For one, and I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet, they are an awesome way of taking ISK out of the game economy which helps preventing inflation. Second: time is very important in EVE - especially now that ghost training has been removed: if you for some reason cannot pay for your next month of game time, you are loosing skill training time (which is a permanent loss as it is impossible to make up for it), so giving people an option to pay with in game currency for more playing time is great.
To sum it up, I see no problem with trading ISK for gaming time, or vice versa, if you do it the CCP way you know you are making a safe transaction, and you are not destroying the game... Plus if you are real good at making in game money you can actually play for free, how perfect is that?
Originally posted by Gnazon For one, and I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet, they are an awesome way of taking ISK out of the game economy which helps preventing inflation.
Nobody mentioned it, because it's wrong. Sorry. Isk just change its owner, it is not taken out of game.
Orphus, Batolemaus and Kylearn, you three make a reasonable arguement for the existance of CCP, and I thank you for that. Perdhaps it is not such a sad day after all.
For one, and I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet, they are an awesome way of taking ISK out of the game economy which helps preventing inflation.
Nobody mentioned it, because it's wrong. Sorry.
Isk just change its owner, it is not taken out of game.
Well, not entirely wrong. GTC selling takes ISK out of the game indirectly. Follow my reasoning.
Its a safe assumption that some portion of GTC sellers are using the ISK they buy to fund PVP activities. (I'd put forth that its a large percentage, but I'm only guessing). PVP activities eventually lead to lost ships/modules (either because the buyer kills others, or gets killed) which in turn takes the ISK out of the EVE universe. (rather than sitting unused in someones wallet)
edit: Thank you "TheRedPill." EVE continues to be a facinating game to me and I think others would enjoy it as well, however I recognize there are quite a few challenges to joining and succeeding in the EVE universe.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran PVP activities eventually lead to lost ships/modules (either because the buyer kills others, or gets killed) which in turn takes the ISK out of the EVE universe. (rather than sitting unused in someones wallet)
Nope. You buy the stuff from someone who gets your isk. No npcs sell t2 gear or ships. When you ship blows up, you actually insert isk into the economy through insurance.
PvP, especially with t1 ships, is an isk faucet, not a drain.
Real isk drains are trades with npc (skillbooks, nanite paste, posfuel etc), market taxes, and insurances that run out with no ship exploding.
However, i don't see a difference between people buying isk from farmers or via GTC. They amount to the same thing regardless of what kind of moral value you want to put on it.
Well, I do see a few differences. ISK sellers frequently spam chat channels, CCP doesn't. ISK sellers sometimes try to steal your account, CCP doesn't. ISK sellers/macro miners can take over key belts/resources in the game, denying legitimate players access, CCP won't.
But from a moral perspective (if such a thing exists in online games) I concur, not a whole lot of difference.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
i can't think of anyone that really would look down on buying or selling gtcs. other than some people believe that the isk cost for gtcs has gone retardedly high. which is why i switched my (now singular) account to a 3 month pay by cc.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I'm not playing atm, so I'm not looking down at anyone, but when I was playing this game I was looking down at those who couldn't get enough ISK by actually playing the game. In any case e-baying or GTC transactions are not neccessary. I agree that for advanced Eve gaming hoards of ISK are something you can't play without, but you can get anything you want by just playing the game.
If someone has tons of free time and little RL money, he can just spend a lot of time in game and earn ISK. If it's the opposite, player should get an alt or two and use them to earn the ISK in-game using his wits and those alts (and with properly developed alts, earning huge amounts of ISK doesn't even require spending a lot of time on-line).
So, yes, GTC'ers and ebayer's are trying to play Eve on "easy" mode. It's their choice, but looking down at them is my choice.
Regardless of what CCP did there would be RMTs out there, and I believe what CCP have done is a good thing...
As a business sense... CCP still get money from the sales of the GTCs in the first place, whereas other RMTs may not be linked to CCP and can ruin / harm the game
I am a strong believer in the idea that even if something is wrong, it is better to allow it in controlled form rather than just ignore it, to me its the better of two bad options, kinda damned if the didnt and damn if they did...
Also like others have said, it makes the game more accessable to more people which can only be good for the game... people who cannot afford to spend RL money on subcriptions, use isk to buy it from someone who has more money and willing to use it, In a way it helps players indirectly help others...
Also it is worth pointing out that credit is hard to come by at the moment, so many people will be unable to get a credit card to pay for subscription
Those who instantly dismiss all RMT, really should open their eyes and see what CCP have really done here, they have allowed it yes, but in such a way that it helps the game, rather than harm it...
Although I have to admit I dont always agree with CCP, I do praise them on this very move
Edit: additional note: Yes I have used CCPs system of GTC selling as an investment into my gaming time...
Originally posted by G_Ravenor ... Those who instantly dismiss all RMT, really should open their eyes and see what CCP have really done here, they have allowed it yes, but in such a way that it helps the game, rather than harm it...
Quite frankly I dont see how this help the games in any way, it helps the guys that can't be bothered to run missions, build or mine like others do. If CCP getting a slice of the pie is your argument, well they get a good deal from the endless accounts of isk sellers as well...
But that said, Eve stands out in the way, that ships paid by GTC pops just as nice as those hard earned from mining or other ingame activites.
It helps the game in the way that it enables more people to be able to afford to play, and it doesnt harm it, as you said a ship explodes just as easily regardless of isk spend....
This is not your standard RMT going on here, it is controlled and safe, all isk and RL money spent is kept in the game or CCP's pocked the same as if you just bought a subscription...
This IMO is different from the whole buying actual items for RL money or extra levels / skill points, which I can see would harm the game alot..
At the end of the day it is a tool to use in the game now, as it has a legal, accepted form.......
So what your saying is that buying ingame items/ skillpoints harms the game, but sellling GTC (bought with real money) for ingame isk is not harming the game... well hands down to the expert. What you have described is the same thing, reciving ingame isk and then buying the item is the same as actually buing the item, you just have to do some extra work. And yes you can actually use those isk received from your GTC to buy skillpoints.. or well actually buy ingame characters for isk approved by CCP. For me the whole scheme is the same as what you can buy from isk/item sellers on ebay or whatever.
I don't have to like the scheme, but it does not bother me that much. But the doubble standards of condoning isk sellers and at the same time embracing this scheme just does not make sense.
Originally posted by shinkan Well your logic here is somewhat flawed.
Nope, his logic isn't flawed.
To understand why sanctioned rmt via gtc is a lot better than ebay, just get out a pencil and a sheet of paper. Now create a little flowchart of who gets isk/real money/gtc, and who makes real money/isk/gains time. Then factor in that there are people who have time, but no money (students for example), and that there are people with less time but rl money, and then there are people who want to make rl money out of isk.
What you will see, after you are done, is why gtc sales are a lot better than simple itemshops or ebay.
(Hint: It has something to do with the roles of buyer/seller, and the people who profit from it.)
Comments
Example from the market. This shows buyorders and sellorders on GTC, or PLEX, this is made from players of the game not CCP.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
For Elsabolts....
As for GTCs, I don't really agree with letting people use out-of-game resources to purchase in-game resources, but given that gold sellers are a fact of life in any MMO that has a functional economy I think CCP has made the best choice by giving people a sanctioned method of doing it that cuts the resellers / farmers out of the loop.
There are a few purists who might look down on players who buy/sell GTC, but for the most part the practice is accepted by the EVE community. Why? Because he who has the most ISK does not always win.
In fact, I've never lost a fight where my thoughts were, "crap, that guy must have purchased his ISK, so that's why he beat me". No, I'm flying a ship just as good as anyone elses, and my character skills are good so in the end, I lose fights for the most part due to "operator error" or plain jujst being outfought.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are a few poeple who think that buying their way to the top in EVE will mean they are untouchable. That mostly results in comedy killmails though.
As far as EVE GTC's go...they are a necessary evil. RMT companies will always be in MMO's, it's a given they are impossible to get rid of. What CCP has done by providing a controlled outlet for GTC sales is not only protect the ingame markets from mudflation, but actually reduce the market for illegal RMT isk sales.
Seriously anyone who thinks there is a way to eliminate all RMT from a MMO is delusional. Expect other MMO's to follow CCP's lead in the future.
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Well, somebody got to pay for my alts.
Necessary evil. Thats why everyone sells it with their alts instead of mains.
Truthfully, I have no problems with GTC sellers, reason why? I love playing a quality game for free! I mean honestly, you're always going to have people who sell game currency, and overall I like the way that CCP handles EVE in general. Free updates, no need to buy extra expansions, free gaming if you can make the ISK.
I don't buy or sell GTC's, my RL cashflow does not get affected by my subscription fees but at the same time my ingame cashflow (and needs) do not warrant selling GTC's to make it work. On the other hand, while I could sell my isk I can't be bothered to swap ingame effort for a little RL cash. I'm quite neutral on the whole affair.
While I don't appreciate people bringing in RL cash to make up for their ingame inadequacies to me it doesn't change the game much since (as stated above) having isk doesn't neccesarily mean winning. Besides, IHAVE isk, more than I need. I CAN understand people who have limited free time and a good job to not want to bother with making cash ingame, if they need to work 30 minutes to buy isk that would take them 3 days to make then I completely understand that decision.
However, i don't see a difference between people buying isk from farmers or via GTC. They amount to the same thing regardless of what kind of moral value you want to put on it. Without GTC sellling there'd be less accounts for sure so CCP is happy, but at the same time those extra accounts will be mostly alts which means there's less interaction between players going on since you can do it all solo.
GTC's are the best answer to an evil that shouldn't exist.
I am a fairly new EVE player, I have never bought or sold GTCs, but I like the idea of them being in the game:
For one, and I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet, they are an awesome way of taking ISK out of the game economy which helps preventing inflation.
Second: time is very important in EVE - especially now that ghost training has been removed: if you for some reason cannot pay for your next month of game time, you are loosing skill training time (which is a permanent loss as it is impossible to make up for it), so giving people an option to pay with in game currency for more playing time is great.
To sum it up, I see no problem with trading ISK for gaming time, or vice versa, if you do it the CCP way you know you are making a safe transaction, and you are not destroying the game... Plus if you are real good at making in game money you can actually play for free, how perfect is that?
Nobody mentioned it, because it's wrong. Sorry.
Isk just change its owner, it is not taken out of game.
You are absolutely right, my bad. Thanks.
Orphus, Batolemaus and Kylearn, you three make a reasonable arguement for the existance of CCP, and I thank you for that. Perdhaps it is not such a sad day after all.
Nobody mentioned it, because it's wrong. Sorry.
Isk just change its owner, it is not taken out of game.
Well, not entirely wrong. GTC selling takes ISK out of the game indirectly. Follow my reasoning.
Its a safe assumption that some portion of GTC sellers are using the ISK they buy to fund PVP activities. (I'd put forth that its a large percentage, but I'm only guessing). PVP activities eventually lead to lost ships/modules (either because the buyer kills others, or gets killed) which in turn takes the ISK out of the EVE universe. (rather than sitting unused in someones wallet)
edit: Thank you "TheRedPill." EVE continues to be a facinating game to me and I think others would enjoy it as well, however I recognize there are quite a few challenges to joining and succeeding in the EVE universe.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Nope. You buy the stuff from someone who gets your isk. No npcs sell t2 gear or ships.
When you ship blows up, you actually insert isk into the economy through insurance.
PvP, especially with t1 ships, is an isk faucet, not a drain.
Real isk drains are trades with npc (skillbooks, nanite paste, posfuel etc), market taxes, and insurances that run out with no ship exploding.
Well, I do see a few differences. ISK sellers frequently spam chat channels, CCP doesn't. ISK sellers sometimes try to steal your account, CCP doesn't. ISK sellers/macro miners can take over key belts/resources in the game, denying legitimate players access, CCP won't.
But from a moral perspective (if such a thing exists in online games) I concur, not a whole lot of difference.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
whit the PLEX gtc you take isk out from the game whit the market tax
the old gtc market traffic was @ 100bn/day if PLEX traffic will be the same allot of isk is removed from game whit market tax
BestSigEver :P
i can't think of anyone that really would look down on buying or selling gtcs. other than some people believe that the isk cost for gtcs has gone retardedly high. which is why i switched my (now singular) account to a 3 month pay by cc.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
I could careless.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
I'm not playing atm, so I'm not looking down at anyone, but when I was playing this game I was looking down at those who couldn't get enough ISK by actually playing the game. In any case e-baying or GTC transactions are not neccessary. I agree that for advanced Eve gaming hoards of ISK are something you can't play without, but you can get anything you want by just playing the game.
If someone has tons of free time and little RL money, he can just spend a lot of time in game and earn ISK. If it's the opposite, player should get an alt or two and use them to earn the ISK in-game using his wits and those alts (and with properly developed alts, earning huge amounts of ISK doesn't even require spending a lot of time on-line).
So, yes, GTC'ers and ebayer's are trying to play Eve on "easy" mode. It's their choice, but looking down at them is my choice.
I have never liked the GTC idea. Selling a GTC for 300mil isk is for me the same as some person buying 300 mil from a isk seller on whatever web page.
/agree
It's RMT pure and simple. Just say no to games that endorse or allow RMT.
Regardless of what CCP did there would be RMTs out there, and I believe what CCP have done is a good thing...
As a business sense... CCP still get money from the sales of the GTCs in the first place, whereas other RMTs may not be linked to CCP and can ruin / harm the game
I am a strong believer in the idea that even if something is wrong, it is better to allow it in controlled form rather than just ignore it, to me its the better of two bad options, kinda damned if the didnt and damn if they did...
Also like others have said, it makes the game more accessable to more people which can only be good for the game... people who cannot afford to spend RL money on subcriptions, use isk to buy it from someone who has more money and willing to use it, In a way it helps players indirectly help others...
Also it is worth pointing out that credit is hard to come by at the moment, so many people will be unable to get a credit card to pay for subscription
Those who instantly dismiss all RMT, really should open their eyes and see what CCP have really done here, they have allowed it yes, but in such a way that it helps the game, rather than harm it...
Although I have to admit I dont always agree with CCP, I do praise them on this very move
Edit: additional note: Yes I have used CCPs system of GTC selling as an investment into my gaming time...
shhh... you might wake the trolls
Quite frankly I dont see how this help the games in any way, it helps the guys that can't be bothered to run missions, build or mine like others do. If CCP getting a slice of the pie is your argument, well they get a good deal from the endless accounts of isk sellers as well...
But that said, Eve stands out in the way, that ships paid by GTC pops just as nice as those hard earned from mining or other ingame activites.
It helps the game in the way that it enables more people to be able to afford to play, and it doesnt harm it, as you said a ship explodes just as easily regardless of isk spend....
This is not your standard RMT going on here, it is controlled and safe, all isk and RL money spent is kept in the game or CCP's pocked the same as if you just bought a subscription...
This IMO is different from the whole buying actual items for RL money or extra levels / skill points, which I can see would harm the game alot..
At the end of the day it is a tool to use in the game now, as it has a legal, accepted form.......
shhh... you might wake the trolls
Well your logic here is somewhat flawed.
So what your saying is that buying ingame items/ skillpoints harms the game, but sellling GTC (bought with real money) for ingame isk is not harming the game... well hands down to the expert. What you have described is the same thing, reciving ingame isk and then buying the item is the same as actually buing the item, you just have to do some extra work. And yes you can actually use those isk received from your GTC to buy skillpoints.. or well actually buy ingame characters for isk approved by CCP. For me the whole scheme is the same as what you can buy from isk/item sellers on ebay or whatever.
I don't have to like the scheme, but it does not bother me that much. But the doubble standards of condoning isk sellers and at the same time embracing this scheme just does not make sense.
Nope, his logic isn't flawed.
To understand why sanctioned rmt via gtc is a lot better than ebay, just get out a pencil and a sheet of paper.
Now create a little flowchart of who gets isk/real money/gtc, and who makes real money/isk/gains time.
Then factor in that there are people who have time, but no money (students for example), and that there are people with less time but rl money, and then there are people who want to make rl money out of isk.
What you will see, after you are done, is why gtc sales are a lot better than simple itemshops or ebay.
(Hint: It has something to do with the roles of buyer/seller, and the people who profit from it.)