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Group based MMORPGs dying?
Calintz333
Member UncommonPosts: 1,193
It seems to me like FFXI is the last true Group based MMORPG. By Group based I mean you can't get by without a group at all. You Need a group to do 90% of the game content.
I love group based mmorpgs. It takes skill and team work to get things done. Back in 2004-2006 when I played FFXI had my 75 DRG 75 WHM Things were HARD. The game was not easy. I deleted my 2 characters in 2006 for personal reasons I rather not say. And When I came back this year I found myself going form lvl 1-60 in less than 2 months.... Even my second time around back in 2005 getting 1-60 would have taken me a good 4 months at the rate I play. I notice the Exp bands, the travel time cuts, the Level sync... FFXI is becoming a casual mmorpg that is more and more smaller and smaller group based. You can now get by quite well level 1-75 with only a DUO..yep a 6 man party game is now A Duoble game. A healer and a DPS can take on EMs and Ts with the exp bands and level sync exp is very fast and easy to obtain.
Why Am I complaining if the game is getting easy?
Because I enjoy a challenge. I didn't mind working for that next level cap upgrade, I didn't mind waiting a week to get some help doing Genkai 3. I did not mind having to wait a month to get people on my LS together to do the O hat runs. That was GREAT! That made everything I did in FFXI mean so much more to me! The fact they dont raise the level cap and you can come back if you left a bad ass you come back a bad ass a year later is amazing as well!
Why make the game easy? Why make the game more like WoW more of a solo/casual game?
Are party based old school mmorpg games dying now?
Are there any like this in the wroks coming?
Even FFXI is switching over to the easy side. Its still has its level caps and Genkai but leveling is so much easier now, doing story missions does not require as much tactics anymore... are these games dying? Are there any true hard core mmorpgs left?
Comments
Of the games I have tried DDO is very group focused, often brought up as a negative aspect. CoH scaled the difficulty based on group size, a bit formulaic but it rewarded grouping. The others I would agree were geared around soloing, with little reason to group, GW probably being the worse.
Its a shame really. I think people today want everything given to them instead of having to think/stratagy/plan a real hard misson or group for it. I can almost bet soon there will be an mmorpg with solo end game raids too.
The problem is not the games it is the group design. You take thousands of people and try to force them into hundreds of little boxes. You force people to play characters not because they want to but because a group needs them. So what do you think would happen? Groups would be much more preferable if they weren't designed around single player console games.
Plus if people really need to leave their leetest attitude at the door. I remember play FFXI years ago, stood around for a hour or so as a red mage looking for a group. Finally a group came together and some idiot had to give the white mage a half an hour lecture about how they should set macros up.
i remember the days of EQ, my god THAT was an amazing game.
The CoH model was fun, but not a very satisfying game mechanic. I can do this dungeon solo, so I don't really need a group. BUT, if I happen to have a group, then I can still do the dungeon, since it will scale and still have plenty of Mobs to fight, and still give plenty of xp for everyone. Well, that's better than the dungeon being solo, and you can't bring a group at all, but it's not very challenging.
It's a real sense of accomplishment to run into a dungeon, realize there is absolutely no way you're going to make it through without a good group, put together a good group, and then do the dungeon, or at least a big part of it without getting everyone killed.
Or to figure out just what you need to finish this particular dungeon. Ok, couldn't do it solo. Couldn't do it this level duo. Could do it this level with three people, might be able to do it duo if I go up a level, etc.
That's very different than, go solo, bring two, three, five, six, whatever, it's all good, either way you can finish the dungeon. That's kinda fun, but kinda meh.
The CoH model was fun, but not a very satisfying game mechanic. I can do this dungeon solo, so I don't really need a group. BUT, if I happen to have a group, then I can still do the dungeon, since it will scale and still have plenty of Mobs to fight, and still give plenty of xp for everyone. Well, that's better than the dungeon being solo, and you can't bring a group at all, but it's not very challenging.
It's a real sense of accomplishment to run into a dungeon, realize there is absolutely no way you're going to make it through without a good group, put together a good group, and then do the dungeon, or at least a big part of it without getting everyone killed.
Or to figure out just what you need to finish this particular dungeon. Ok, couldn't do it solo. Couldn't do it this level duo. Could do it this level with three people, might be able to do it duo if I go up a level, etc.
That's very different than, go solo, bring two, three, five, six, whatever, it's all good, either way you can finish the dungeon. That's kinda fun, but kinda meh.
I would tend to agree, I liked CoH (enough to play for a couple of years) grouping made more sense for xp, and the community was great. It was hard to ignore the fact that the mechanics that made it accessible also made the missions and levels from 1 to 50 pretty generic.
DDO on the other hand has all hand built quests (very little generic fair) for a group, very little solo content, and totally focused around a group to finish a quest, or you don't get anything. Soloing is relegated to explorer areas or the very dedicated. I would say it was hardcore grouping and has some nice group forming tools. But it only works by focusing the story around that group (via instances).
So you get a nice tight group orientated game, complex by MMO standard PvE quests, huge variety of builds and group compositions. You of course alienate anyone who wants sandbox, PvP, non instanced open areas, soloing, very casual players or just wants loads and loads of things to do even if they are low quality.
For me group focused is great, but I accept that if it is too heavy it will not have mass appeal and at best produce a niche MMO. Make the need to group too light and you get what we have in most MMOs, generic soloable content with the odd gem of group content, and timesink raiding.
If you want flawless group-only gameplay, hit up DDO... its probably the best on the market nowadays for anti-solo gameplay.
There is a lot about DDO that makes it an incredo-amazo-good game. All the dungeons are designed to be a challenge, they are not "go kill x near the house"... its more like "Go into the dungeon, find a way to get passed the locked door, find a way to defeat [Boss]" and it will require you to find hidden levers, hidden doors, disable traps... the whole DnD thing.
The raids are anything but tanknspank... you will have be solving puzzles while killing a Raid boss in almost every single raid. There is no raid in the game where every just runs up and attacks a single boss, there is always something else going on.
The community is by far the best in any game, and its what makes the game that much better. PUG groups are filled with nice people that will guide you through the dungeon if it is your first time, the voice chat enables great fun, people talk to each other like normal people... Its a "small" community for each server and you will see the same people throughout the whole game a LOT and you will make friends. If you don't make any friends you are doing something wrong.
yes it is, pretty soon you will probably see MMOs ban grouping considering it an exploit and a bad word ... pretty soon you will probably get a warning if you shout "looking for group" ... get banned if you and some other person fight mobs together.
I still play EQ2, yes its not the best game and yes its made by $OE but they just released an expansion that focused on group content, 20 new group dungeons(that scale from level 50 to 80), 5 huge (and from what i have heard extremely tough) raid zones.
after thier Last Solo expansion ROK thankfully many players actually complained that GET THIS ... there was TOO MUCH solo content and get this ... SOE kinda listened and went the opposite route with this expac.
only problem with EQ2 is that its an older game so the lower level grouping may not be there ... but even at lower levels grouping is still the best way to get xp. though when i play my alts i still see people shouting for groups.
Dungeons and dragons online huh? Is that game still getting updates regularly? I had herd a rumor about a year ago that game was in risk of shutting down, guess it was just a rumor. I did try it when it first came out, came out a year or so after FFXI and honestly Was not my cup of tea back then. But then again I didn't really know how to appreciate hard work back then now I Do. So I may enjoy it now. Also back then it was buggy and not much to do except run missions. Its prob a little more in depth now with more to do huh?
Because that is what people want. Pure and simple.
People should read some research about the topic. Here are two papers and explaining the social aspects of WOW.
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1180898
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1124772.1124834
Didn't DDO just impliment hirelings or about to? So 2 or 3 pc could make a full party. Which is not that bad of an idea atleast they are thinking out side the box a bit.
Well, it's not exactly like that.
And it's still in beta it seems.
You "hire" a hireling based on your level. They aren't bad but they aren't amazing either. As they put it, "its' a bit more dps or healing or whatnot".
You can instruct the hireling as well though it's very basic "stay here, follow me, interact with this object" type of stuff.
I really don't see them being a replacement for a party, especially in some of the dungeons I've seen.
As far as the question regarding DDO shutting down, that was just a rumor probably started by one of the "this game isn't going the way I want so I think others will hate it and leave" group.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Well, it's not exactly like that.
And it's still in beta it seems.
You "hire" a hireling based on your level. They aren't bad but they aren't amazing either. As they put it, "its' a bit more dps or healing or whatnot".
You can instruct the hireling as well though it's very basic "stay here, follow me, interact with this object" type of stuff.
I really don't see them being a replacement for a party, especially in some of the dungeons I've seen.
As far as the question regarding DDO shutting down, that was just a rumor probably started by one of the "this game isn't going the way I want so I think others will hate it and leave" group.
So like guildwars npc hirelings, not as good as a rl person but better then lf tank or healer for god knows how long.
I am curious. Why is it grouping is synonimous with challenge as the OP stated? Why is it that soloing is always the easy mode?
I can think of a great many single player games that are very hard, rewarding and challenging. Likewise, I have found most my grouping experience often quite the opposite... frustrating, boring and often pointless. This applies to small groups (5 mans) and even raids.
I could be missing something, but hitting a button when the raid leader says so is not challenging. Heck, I don't even have to think. I don't feel there is great risk if I mess up and there is someone to heal me every time. How is it challenging to throw a 40 man army at a boss? The fact is, it really isn't. All the devs do is give the mob more HP so that it can outlast a group of "X number" of folks of "X Level/gear" or lower.
Grouping may be more fun for some, but I have seen it to be easier. This is especially true if the group shows some form of team work. The solo player has to take on multiple roles and has no one to bail his ass out if something goes wrong. To be sure, good teamwork is a learned skill and a challenge in its own right, but is it really making the game itself more challenging? Or are folks grouping because they are forced to, and in essence, making the encounters more manageable..aka..easier?
The only reason raid content or group content is any more diverse or challenging is that Devs make it that way due to a severe lack of creativity on their part. They say it is harder to make challenging solo content and that party oriented content is easier to make. I don't get it.
Of course, years of Mario, Legend of Zelda, Dungeon Master, Myst, the Lego series, Tomb Raider series, etc. could be wrong. I suppose the FPS games have no skill or challenge for the single player either? Yeah, right. MMo's are simply formulaic and math based as opposed to puzzle, exploring, or logic based. In short, in a MMO, throw enough numbers at it and the problem is solved.
If devs took a cue from those single player games I mentioned above, folks would be begging to group up. "LFG! Hey, I need 4 guys to shand on these platforms to open the door because pushing statues around to the platforms in the exact correct order while tons of powerful monsters are attacking me is too hard." Yet, for years, the single player has been doing just that all by his little self!
Now, just imagine a MMO that had that was developed with the single player game's mindset of skill, world development, exploration, puzzle, logic and other challenges beyond HP or zerg mechanics and expanded it to include both the lone wolves and the party based player! That would create depth and most play styles would be accommodated, and nothing fosters community like being immersed and having fun. Something current MMOs are really lacking (Imho).
I am not advocating that all MMOs cater to solo play, but rather, to dispense with the notion that grouping equals challenge and is the only way. They should be challenging for solo and group players alike, and grouping should not be forced, but fostered by being more rewarding and more fun. I truly feel the classic MMO challenge/reward formula needs a serious kick in the butt.
Group based does not equal challenging or even fun.
The larger the group the more trivial the content becomes.
Heck in raids in World of Warcraft you can fully automate your character so that it can raid with no input what so ever from you. You can just load the settings from a successful raid and it will go successful everytime. (This is what a lot of the "Large" raid guilds do, including some of the top raid guilds on servers)
While solo or small group content (3-6 players) can be a lot more challenging and rewarding. When you are in a small group you are called upon to be more involved in everything going on. That just isn't the case in large raids.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
as with all trends it will come to an end eventually. Devs seem to focus on flavours of the month (atm is WoW) and thus cater to those trends. given 2-5 years i'd expect to see a new and different trend (maybe all group based MMO's, who knows).
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
LOL if it was that easy everyone would be geared out in raid equipment now wouldn't they? sorry but at least in my game EQ2 if someone doesn't pay attention on a raid they could wipe the raid. the best thing EQ2 is doing now is putting messages out (the mobs will call out the person who screwed up) so you know who to be pissed at.
maybe like most of WoW even its raiding is dumbed down to the point that you can automate your actions. wouldn't surprise me in the least bit
More like flavors of the year .. or the half decade. WOW is dominating and expanding for the last 4 years.
That is like 1/3 of all MMO history (UO came out in 1997, 11 years ago).
Too much grouping is not conducive to casual play and i don't think anyone is stupid enough to go that direction, except for the niche games.
How about I like to solo and I like to group, but refuse to play a game that forces either playstyle? That seems like a nice voting option, as your options are black and white. With you, I either raid or I solo. There's a very large in-between. You seem to have forgotten this.
Lotr is still very group heavy in fact many of the instances and boss mobs require groups to finish out books. It is quest based exp and grinding gets you there but much slower then questing.
As long as you are on a busy server never an issue finding groups. The flip side is finding stuff to do when not grouping.
I would like to see a balance of both.
When I played FFXI, there was no one like to group with. Maybe because half of the population on my server do not speak English but only in the forum.
In other games such as WOW, LOTRO, DDO, are all group play. Especially like DDO or Acheron's Call 2 both from Turbine, just run to a spot then people will invite you to a group.
And when I played LOTRO, there were also too many invites during a day, people got sick of it to invite without asking first.
I am learning Japanese now so I can group with people in FFXI.
Sayonara.
I thought I would be the first to post it but apparently I was beaten to the punch a couple posts up. Games that encourage grouping are not dying, but group BASED games are. There are a ton of reasons, but the main two are money and the fact that people just don't want to group.
For myself personally, I don't really want to group. I want to solo through my game and never have to rely on anybody else except me, and only group up with close friends, family, or my fiance. Why should I be FORCED to group with other people to play the game I'm paying money for? I want to play the game to have fun. Paying for a game that ends up turning into a second job is completely pointless.
And no, using lines like 'so go play a single player game if you hate grouping' doesn't really mean squat. I play MMO's so that I can interact with other people. Just because I like to RP or talk to people though doesn't mean I want to have to put up with them in a group. Being able to walk into large cities filled with people doing everything from RPing to selling, dueling to just random BSing, is GREAT! But again, I don't want to party with them. I played WoW for close to two years, got my character up to 62, almost maxed out crafting...and then realized I couldn't actually craft anymore because all the supplies I needed were Bind-on-pickup only and only located in raid dungeons. Well, I quit that same day.
To me, and to an apparently increasing number of people, we want to play the game without having to sit around waiting for other people. Whether that ends up being waiting for a group, having to sit there planning everything out in advance, waiting for people to show up, waiting for...well...any number of things. I just want to get up and go, drag along the people I want to play with, and not have to worry that were just not enough people to play the game all the way to the end.
City of Heroes/Villains was another great game I managed to sink a couple of years into, and it had the best system of any game I've played I think. Another poster got into some detail for it so I won't go to far, but needless to say you had the option of either playing completely solo, or grouping. But the point is that it was an option, you never had to group with the exception of Task/Strike Forces, and even then those missions were completely optional.
The bottom line is, let people play how they want to play. Just because I like to solo or only group with a couple people doesn't mean I hate challenge. I would duo the instances in WoW that really have no business being duo'd (at least at the character level we did them at) and it took a TON of planning, at least a moderate amount of skill, and knowing what to use and when to use it. And the best part was we didn't have to listen to random people we don't really know or care about whining. "Wah I want that loot, wah your being to slow, wah phone call, wah I didn't ninja you it's better for me, wah you got me killed when it was really my own fault but I want to blame you because it's NEVER my fault." The list goes on and on.
Wow, I rambled a lot...
Ok, wrapping this up now lol. The point is that just because an MMO allows people to solo/duo their way through everything (well, not everything...would love to see a game where solo players and groupers are treated 100% equally though, at least in terms of where you can go) doesn't mean it has to hinder your ability to group. Options are never a bad thing.
I personally hope they make another Nitch group mmorpg (Squreenix) Like they did with FFXI. Personally I love the forced grouping community, Sure it drives away a ton of possible players, however, it also makes the community that much closer, lots of people know each other, and lots more people are willing to socialize and help. Its not as common in FFXI to Say Hello to a player who is running past you and they simply ignore you. Unlike in games like woW where this happens A LOT. In FFXI most players who can answer or respond will. Those that dont are RMT, Don't speak english, or one of the few elitist jerks that FFXI is so well known for in its super elitist and time consuming end game HNMLS's
ROSE is nearly impossible to play without grouping up. However, the game sucks these days since it hasn't been updated for years. Even private servers are more advanced
.