Well you guys can flame me and call me a liar but a guildie of mine has been in the Closed beta for awhile now. He says it's coming along amazingly and shared a few things with me. Darkfall is coming and it will be amazing. This coming from gamer that hasn't enjoyed a mmo since Ultima Online.
I approve of your first post in 3 years
Yep what the haters fail to realize is that many of the leaks, some of which were on this forum, that they cried fake about were almost exactly what the beta tester quotes explained the game to be.
So sorry guys beta is real...let me know what you come up with at the next troll meeting.
Of course Tasos could have multiple accounts on this forum and have been all the leaks himself, which would explain why they sounded the same as the quotes in the update. Sad thing is some people actually think that that is an actual possibility lol.
Even if the beta is real, Darkfall is still in the vaporware category, just like Half Life used to be, before it released and turned out to be a good game.
A "real" beta doesn't take a game out of the vaporware category. The only way for Darkfall to get out of the vaporware category is to release a good game, just like Valve did with Half Life.
People calling Darkfall vaporware are no more trolls than the people that called Half Life vaporware were "trolls". Half Life was indeed vaporware at one time, according to the accepted definition of the term.
There doesn't have to be "another troll meeting". Darkfall just has to release a good game, and until then it's vaporware, just like Half Life was. Nothing much you can do about that.
The only thing I really have a problem with is this "accepted defition of the term" because there really isnt. You can quote definitions from here or there, but there is just too much vagueness, even in the definitions.
Heck we have some people posting on here saying "all games are vaporware until they are released" which obviously is his opinion, but clearly wouldnt be accepted by everyone else.
I keep going back to the Team Fortress 2 example. People claimed it was vaporware just because the devs scraped it and werent happy with it. Which is something we should hope they would do.
People just get pissy and upset, and since vaporware sounds like a cool word, there ya go. I think the term is ridiculous, and not just because it is attached to DF. As it was annoying back when I was waiting on TF2 to come out.
An example would be how me, and i know a lot of other people, think vaporware means a game that shows no signs of ever releasing. Was DF in this category awhile ago? sure. With the recent updates and proof in the last few months it definitely is clear that this game is going to release. I have a non official link im debating on putting up just yet because until tomorrow all it will do is bring on flaming...but it is more proof.
Honestly, it seems your definition of vaporware is "If I like a game, it can't be vaporware, and if anyone calls it vaporware, I get to call them a troll". /shrug
No. But if you want to think that then go for it.
Point is that other people have a little more tolerance and understand about businesses and what it takes to develop a game. Then there are others, for whatever reason, get off with attacking a game prerelease and vaporware just happens to be one type of ammo.
Terms like "longer than normal dev cycle" are so vague and subjective. If you consider that DF has only been in development for 5 years (because of the whole changeover in 2003...if you ever saw some alpha screens from 2001-2003 youll know it was a big change. And who says even 8 years is too long given the size of the company and what they want to accomplish? And who says that delaying a game because of hiccups in development is a bad thing or in anyways means it wont release. It is called being impatient.
Fact: There is no grand book of vaporware that details how it is handled.
Anyways the proof is out there that this game is definitely going to be releasing, and soon. If people still want to lnk definitions and nitpick thats their right. But if you actually sit back and really think about it, the term no longer applies.
Well you guys can flame me and call me a liar but a guildie of mine has been in the Closed beta for awhile now. He says it's coming along amazingly and shared a few things with me. Darkfall is coming and it will be amazing. This coming from gamer that hasn't enjoyed a mmo since Ultima Online.
I approve of your first post in 3 years
Yep what the haters fail to realize is that many of the leaks, some of which were on this forum, that they cried fake about were almost exactly what the beta tester quotes explained the game to be.
So sorry guys beta is real...let me know what you come up with at the next troll meeting.
Of course Tasos could have multiple accounts on this forum and have been all the leaks himself, which would explain why they sounded the same as the quotes in the update. Sad thing is some people actually think that that is an actual possibility lol.
Even if the beta is real, Darkfall is still in the vaporware category, just like Half Life used to be, before it released and turned out to be a good game.
A "real" beta doesn't take a game out of the vaporware category. The only way for Darkfall to get out of the vaporware category is to release a good game, just like Valve did with Half Life.
People calling Darkfall vaporware are no more trolls than the people that called Half Life vaporware were "trolls". Half Life was indeed vaporware at one time, according to the accepted definition of the term.
There doesn't have to be "another troll meeting". Darkfall just has to release a good game, and until then it's vaporware, just like Half Life was. Nothing much you can do about that.
The difference here, is that the TROLLS are the ones who slapped the vaporware label on. There is a difference between people who don't like the game idea, skeptics that it will deliver, fans, fanboys, and TROLLS. The trolls ran around night and day saying they couldn't find Aventurine's office on google maps, the screenshots were doctored, the trailers were Gmod footage, all that good stuff put it in the "vaporware" bin. Anyone sensible enough to take a peak inside would have realized "oh, this isn't vaporware, those guys are just morons" like I did.
Once the game goes beyond accepted norms of development cycles, it's vaporware. Who calls it vaporware first, or how often, doesn't really make any difference.
link to your resume that shows you are the grand authority of teh vaporwarez?
edit: and a lot of the vapor definitions also mention something like "and shows no signs of releasing anytime soon"....which DF clearly does.
Well you guys can flame me and call me a liar but a guildie of mine has been in the Closed beta for awhile now. He says it's coming along amazingly and shared a few things with me. Darkfall is coming and it will be amazing. This coming from gamer that hasn't enjoyed a mmo since Ultima Online.
Of course Tasos could have multiple accounts on this forum and have been all the leaks himself, which would explain why they sounded the same as the quotes in the update. Sad thing is some people actually think that that is an actual possibility lol.
Only to put doubts in your mind:
1) The same you can say is that Tasos copy&paste those" fake" statements to make them more "real".
2) If your guildie told it, them why there is no leak still? No more info that the official ones, why none of the many Visitors of Athene Weekend did a "leak" since they weren't under NDA? Why there is absolutely no solid info about the game, but only Tasos words? (Not even the NDA clause of the beta contract is avaliable, wtf?)
Personally, i don't think DFO is vaporware or don't exist. But i also doubt it will be "awesome". It will end like UFO: Extraterrestrials, a lot of promises, a lot of delays, long years of development and, in the end, the fanboys will like it, the rest will skip.
If a vaporware game is a game that went beyond the "normal" development cycle... what's a normal development cycle? Does itdepend on the size of the company, funds, the actual game, the skills of thedeveloppers, the internal problems, etc, etc, etc?
if it depends on all of these things, most which are unknown, then how can we absolutely stick a vaporware sticker on it?
The answer is, we do,cause we feel like it, or because we don't. We argue over it and state "facts" just like we do with everything else, in a narrow minded way without any real input... I don't blame anyone, though. We're all pretty damn bored, it's the internetz.
Aventurine's biggest f-up can be traced to the point they took control of DF in 2002/2003. They knew the game wasnt worthy, and knew it needed significant upgrades/enhancements. If they had just TOLD us they were going to take some serious time to make the game right, I would have cut them more slack. If they had said in 2006, the game just isnt ready for the clan beta we announced in late 2005, I would have given them points for integrity. (yeah, I still would have been pissed) They have done a very poor job managing thier game. I hope they code much better, because their ideas have always been great.
I played TF (and other team shooters) heavily for many years, and waited long for TF2. Eventually, I just got to the point where I didnt play team shooters anymore. TF2 will always be vapor to me, just another "could have been".
TF2 will always be vapor to me, just another "could have been".
I get that you stopped playing shooters...but how is TF2 always going to be vapor to you? Just proves that the term vapor is just tossed around loosely.
Sorry buy a company delaying the game to make it better is not vapor.
TF2 will always be vapor to me, just another "could have been".
I get that you stopped playing shooters...but how is TF2 always going to be vapor to you? Just proves that the term vapor is just tossed around loosely.
Sorry buy a company delaying the game to make it better is not vapor.
Of course TF2 released. Sorry I waxed a little poetic back there. But my point is that these things do have a shelf life, at least to individuals. Things can change for you in 10 years time.
But the difference is, most of those games were produced by Valve, a major developer with a long history of success. Hardly can be compared to Aventurine.
Half Life was Valve's very first game, and it get delayed numerous times. They were all new programmers who had just broken off from Microsoft. Your argument is void.
Valve was founded in Aug 1996, and released Half-Life in Nov 1998, after being formally put into production sometime in 1997. (merged the content/resources of two different games)
There is no comparision. We know thiis about the founders:
August 24, 1996 – Valve is founded as an L.L.C. in Kirkland, WA by former Microsoft employees Gabe Newell and Mike Harrington, instrumental minds behind nearly three generations of the Windows operating system.
Most of what we know about Tasos and his team is disputable, include several proven untruths as to their backgrounds and programming skills.
Also note this important distinction: In 1997, shortly after announcing the new project it was first shown to the public at the E3 convention. which is a well known gaming venue, as opposed to DF being displayed at obscure gaming conventions in Greece with little fanfare or attendence by the mainstream press.
Aventurine has only itself to blame for all the skepticism and doubt, they could quite easily chose to dispel it all, but for reasons only known to themselves they won't.
Oh well, sooner or later we'll find out what they've been keeping so secret, and the mystery will be over.
Too true. On another note, I think 8 years for development of an MMO is borderline fuckin retarded. By the time development is through the graphics will be obsolete, the features outdated, and the play severely damaged.
----------------------------- Real as Reality Television!!!
But the difference is, most of those games were produced by Valve, a major developer with a long history of success. Hardly can be compared to Aventurine.
Half Life was Valve's very first game, and it get delayed numerous times. They were all new programmers who had just broken off from Microsoft. Your argument is void.
Valve was founded in Aug 1996, and released Half-Life in Nov 1998, after being formally put into production sometime in 1997. (merged the content/resources of two different games)
There is no comparision. We know thiis about the founders:
August 24, 1996 – Valve is founded as an L.L.C. in Kirkland, WA by former Microsoft employees Gabe Newell and Mike Harrington, instrumental minds behind nearly three generations of the Windows operating system.
Most of what we know about Tasos and his team is disputable, include several proven untruths as to their backgrounds and programming skills.
Also note this important distinction: In 1997, shortly after announcing the new project it was first shown to the public at the E3 convention. which is a well known gaming venue, as opposed to DF being displayed at obscure gaming conventions in Greece with little fanfare or attendence by the mainstream press.
Aventurine has only itself to blame for all the skepticism and doubt, they could quite easily chose to dispel it all, but for reasons only known to themselves they won't.
Oh well, sooner or later we'll find out what they've been keeping so secret, and the mystery will be over.
Too true. On another note, I think 8 years for development of an MMO is borderline fuckin retarded. By the time development is through the graphics will be obsolete, the features outdated, and the play severely damaged.
Normally I would agree...
Its just that the game that will be released has been in development for 5 years....
The graphics are already considered to be better or at least on par with WAR which was released this year....and beta tester quotes confirm that. So obselete? hardly.....
Features outdated? Well seeing as how DF, if they are feature complete, will have multiple innovative features you cant find in other MMOs in the same game....then ok?
Play severly damaged by a longer development cycle to iron out bugs etc...hmmm gonna have to help me understand that one chief. Sound like the gameplay is doing pretty good.
Why is it such a big deal for you if someone calls Darkfall vaporware?
Why do you care?
I know you're an avid follower of Darkfall and are really looking foward to the game. But, at this point and time, it IS vaporware. It doesn't matter what defintion you use.
All software can be considered vaporware until it is released. This is the common theme in any definition you use. Does Darkfall fall into that category? Yes.
I don't see why it's even a point of debate. Shouldn't we be debating something that actually MATTERS to the game? Like the fact that the UI is subpar, load times through chunks is too long, combat is cumbersome and tricky, ect...
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
All this proves is that the vaportrolls' were right in calling DF vaporware. Then you're left with faith as regards the outcome of the game and I would have much more faith in Valve than Aventurine.
originalegg, Why is it such a big deal for you if someone calls Darkfall vaporware? Why do you care? I know you're an avid follower of Darkfall and are really looking foward to the game. But, at this point and time, it IS vaporware. It doesn't matter what defintion you use. All software can be considered vaporware until it is released. This is the common theme in any definition you use. Does Darkfall fall into that category? Yes. I don't see why it's even a point of debate. Shouldn't we be debating something that actually MATTERS to the game? Like the fact that the UI is subpar, load times through chunks is too long, combat is cumbersome and tricky, ect...
I also don't see why originalegg kicks and screams when someone calls Darkfall vaporware, why he seems to take it so personally.
It's no big deal. Darkfall is Vaporware by any defnition, but if it releases and turns out to be a good game, it can redeem itself. Better to concentrate on that redemption, than fighting the obvious fact that Darkfall is at this point Vaporware.
I would disagree that any software is vaporware before it releases. It doesn't turn into vaporware until things start to go very differently during the development from other similar software releases.
For example, I followed the development, and was in the beta for LoTro, Vanguard, and Shadowbane. It's not just a hard time like that originalegg wants to make it, like "5 years".
It's that you deviate way outside the norm for development of this sort of software, which Darkfall certainly has.
If Darkfall is good I'll play it, but until it releases it's Vaporware. Old Republic, on the other hand, is not yet in the vaporware category because it hasn't fallen way outside the norn, yet, for development.
And no, that doesn't mean the norm is 5 years, but if a game goes 5 years and one month, it's vaporware. I'm sure orignialegg knows all the things that make the Darkfall development cycle different from other games even better than I do, and it's all those things that add up to make Darkfall Vaporware.
IMO, Orignialegg is still arguing that Darkfall is not a Hoax. I agree, I don't think Darkfall is a Hoax.
Vaporware has no official definition. Maybe I'm outdated, but it always just meant 'software that gets hyped and people get excited about, but then never releases'. This was back when it was just a random term tossed about, and didn't have it's own wikipedia article (because wikipedia didn't exist).
I can go edit the wikipedia article to say 'Vaporware is anything but Darkfall lolz', wikipedia is not the be all and end all of internet arguments.
Fact of the matter is, vaporware is a term used by trolls a lot (trolls in the MMORPG.com sense - people who post nothing but negative comments in every thread of a forum). So people who use the term vaporware on this forum tend to get labelled as trolls - because 90% of the time, when the term is used it's used by TenSpotting or Polarization (people who are trolls - they have been suspended from these forums for trolling), or one of the other individuals who spend every waking hour on these forums posting nothing but endless, excessive slander and lies.
Unfortunately, 10% of the time, it wasn't a troll. It was just an idiot.
Vaporware has no official definition. Maybe I'm outdated, but it always just meant 'software that gets hyped and people get excited about, but then never releases'. This was back when it was just a random term tossed about, and didn't have it's own wikipedia article (because wikipedia didn't exist). I can go edit the wikipedia article to say 'Vaporware is anything but Darkfall lolz', wikipedia is not the be all and end all of internet arguments.
Well, you could go edit Wikipedia like that, but if it's not the general consensus of the definition, then it will be removed.
ugh vaporware is a game thats probably not gonna be released.
Sure its subjective, but to think that a game that has a CONFIRMED beta (all the leaks were substantiated in tasos' super update... there's a game website that tested the beta and did a review...) is vaporware and is probably not gonna be released is borderline retarded. It doesn't matter if their PR is unconventional (nonexistant), it doesn't matter if they constantly delayed, and it doesn't matter that their beta is tiny, they have a beta and people are playing the freaking game! 80% of the people who call DF vaporware are trolls, the other 20% are idiots.
If your not a troll, or an idiot, and you think DF is the vap0rz, you need to do some deep soul searching because there's definately a personal reason you don't like darkfall.
ugh vaporware is a game thats probably not gonna be released. Sure its subjective, but to think that a game that has a CONFIRMED beta (all the leaks were substantiated in tasos' super update... there's a game website that tested the beta and did a review...) is vaporware and is probably not gonna be released is borderline retarded. It doesn't matter if their PR is unconventional (nonexistant), it doesn't matter if they constantly delayed, and it doesn't matter that their beta is tiny, they have a beta and people are playing the freaking game! 80% of the people who call DF vaporware are trolls, the other 20% are idiots. If your not a troll, or an idiot, and you think DF is the vap0rz, you need to do some deep soul searching because there's definately a personal reason you don't like darkfall.
Nothing personal, just seems you don't understand the defintion of vaporware.
Being in beta doesn't mean a game is not vaporware. Even releasing a game doesn't mean it's not vaporware if it fails to perform properly.
Don't get mad, some really great games, like Half Life started out as Vaporwar. Darkfall may one day be in the company of those sorts of games.
There's nothing to get so upset about. Just because Darkfall is Vaporware now, doesn't mean it can't redeem itself later.
I hope Darkfall releases a solid playable game. If it is, I'll give it a try. But until then, it's Vaporware and calling people idiots and trolls can't change that.
You seem to be arguing that Darkfall is not a Hoax. I agee with you. I don't think Darkfall is a Hoax.
Vaporware has no official definition. Maybe I'm outdated, but it always just meant 'software that gets hyped and people get excited about, but then never releases'. This was back when it was just a random term tossed about, and didn't have it's own wikipedia article (because wikipedia didn't exist). I can go edit the wikipedia article to say 'Vaporware is anything but Darkfall lolz', wikipedia is not the be all and end all of internet arguments. Fact of the matter is, vaporware is a term used by trolls a lot (trolls in the MMORPG.com sense - people who post nothing but negative comments in every thread of a forum). So people who use the term vaporware on this forum tend to get labelled as trolls - because 90% of the time, when the term is used it's used by TenSpotting or Polarization (people who are trolls - they have been suspended from these forums for trolling), or one of the other individuals who spend every waking hour on these forums posting nothing but endless, excessive slander and lies. Unfortunately, 10% of the time, it wasn't a troll. It was just an idiot.
This is the definition that I would use as well, and far as I know as long as commericial software has existed this been the generally accepted definition. Maybe the public perception of it has changed recently due to people getting butt hurt by being wrong.
It is obvious that this is also the definition that the trolls are using because the subtext of their arguement is that it won't ever release.
Vaporware has no official definition. Maybe I'm outdated, but it always just meant 'software that gets hyped and people get excited about, but then never releases'. This was back when it was just a random term tossed about, and didn't have it's own wikipedia article (because wikipedia didn't exist). I can go edit the wikipedia article to say 'Vaporware is anything but Darkfall lolz', wikipedia is not the be all and end all of internet arguments. Fact of the matter is, vaporware is a term used by trolls a lot (trolls in the MMORPG.com sense - people who post nothing but negative comments in every thread of a forum). So people who use the term vaporware on this forum tend to get labelled as trolls - because 90% of the time, when the term is used it's used by TenSpotting or Polarization (people who are trolls - they have been suspended from these forums for trolling), or one of the other individuals who spend every waking hour on these forums posting nothing but endless, excessive slander and lies. Unfortunately, 10% of the time, it wasn't a troll. It was just an idiot.
This is the definition that I would use as well, and far as I know as long as commericial software has existed this been the generally accepted definition. Maybe the public perception of it has changed recently due to people getting butt hurt by being wrong.
It is obvious that this is also the definition that the trolls are using because the subtext of their arguement is that it won't ever release.
It might be helpful if you thought about software that's not game releated.
If Microsoft was releasing a new accounting software, and it was way behind schedule, had failed to release, was having problems with a beta test and so forth, and people said, well that's vaporware, would you feel you just had to call those people "trolls'" or your head would explode?
Or would you just say, yea, at this point it's vaporware, maybe they'll release something decent at some point, we'll just have to see. There wouldn't be any "subtext" just software that is not on track, not really that big of a deal. It happens all the time, and it happened to Darkfall.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp It might be helpful if you thought about software that's not game releated. If Microsoft was releasing a new accounting software, and it was way behind schedule, had failed to release, was having problems with a beta test and so forth, and people said, well that's vaporware, would you feel you just had to call those people "trolls'" or your head would explode? Or would you just say, yea, at this point it's vaporware, maybe they'll release something decent at some point, we'll just have to see. There wouldn't be any "subtext" just software that is not on track, not really that big of a deal. It happens all the time, and it happened to Darkfall.
I wouldn't call them trolls unless they were writing post designed to provoke people on internet forums about it.
I would however say that their assessment of it being vaporware was wrong if it ever released.
But the difference is, most of those games were produced by Valve, a major developer with a long history of success. Hardly can be compared to Aventurine.
This may sound wise, but it's actually quite stupid because valve didn't had succes either before making and actually releasing a game.
Every new game company starts with nothing, some turn out great. others not.
So let's see what happens with aventurine after the DFO release.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp It might be helpful if you thought about software that's not game releated. If Microsoft was releasing a new accounting software, and it was way behind schedule, had failed to release, was having problems with a beta test and so forth, and people said, well that's vaporware, would you feel you just had to call those people "trolls'" or your head would explode? Or would you just say, yea, at this point it's vaporware, maybe they'll release something decent at some point, we'll just have to see. There wouldn't be any "subtext" just software that is not on track, not really that big of a deal. It happens all the time, and it happened to Darkfall.
I wouldn't call them trolls unless they were writing post designed to provoke people on internet forums about it.
I would however say that their assessment of it being vaporware was wrong if it ever released.
And by that definition, Darkfall would be vaporware now, but not after it successfully releases.
Comments
I approve of your first post in 3 years
Yep what the haters fail to realize is that many of the leaks, some of which were on this forum, that they cried fake about were almost exactly what the beta tester quotes explained the game to be.
So sorry guys beta is real...let me know what you come up with at the next troll meeting.
Of course Tasos could have multiple accounts on this forum and have been all the leaks himself, which would explain why they sounded the same as the quotes in the update. Sad thing is some people actually think that that is an actual possibility lol.
Even if the beta is real, Darkfall is still in the vaporware category, just like Half Life used to be, before it released and turned out to be a good game.
A "real" beta doesn't take a game out of the vaporware category. The only way for Darkfall to get out of the vaporware category is to release a good game, just like Valve did with Half Life.
People calling Darkfall vaporware are no more trolls than the people that called Half Life vaporware were "trolls". Half Life was indeed vaporware at one time, according to the accepted definition of the term.
There doesn't have to be "another troll meeting". Darkfall just has to release a good game, and until then it's vaporware, just like Half Life was. Nothing much you can do about that.
The only thing I really have a problem with is this "accepted defition of the term" because there really isnt. You can quote definitions from here or there, but there is just too much vagueness, even in the definitions.
Heck we have some people posting on here saying "all games are vaporware until they are released" which obviously is his opinion, but clearly wouldnt be accepted by everyone else.
I keep going back to the Team Fortress 2 example. People claimed it was vaporware just because the devs scraped it and werent happy with it. Which is something we should hope they would do.
People just get pissy and upset, and since vaporware sounds like a cool word, there ya go. I think the term is ridiculous, and not just because it is attached to DF. As it was annoying back when I was waiting on TF2 to come out.
An example would be how me, and i know a lot of other people, think vaporware means a game that shows no signs of ever releasing. Was DF in this category awhile ago? sure. With the recent updates and proof in the last few months it definitely is clear that this game is going to release. I have a non official link im debating on putting up just yet because until tomorrow all it will do is bring on flaming...but it is more proof.
Honestly, it seems your definition of vaporware is "If I like a game, it can't be vaporware, and if anyone calls it vaporware, I get to call them a troll". /shrug
No. But if you want to think that then go for it.
Point is that other people have a little more tolerance and understand about businesses and what it takes to develop a game. Then there are others, for whatever reason, get off with attacking a game prerelease and vaporware just happens to be one type of ammo.
Terms like "longer than normal dev cycle" are so vague and subjective. If you consider that DF has only been in development for 5 years (because of the whole changeover in 2003...if you ever saw some alpha screens from 2001-2003 youll know it was a big change. And who says even 8 years is too long given the size of the company and what they want to accomplish? And who says that delaying a game because of hiccups in development is a bad thing or in anyways means it wont release. It is called being impatient.
Fact: There is no grand book of vaporware that details how it is handled.
Anyways the proof is out there that this game is definitely going to be releasing, and soon. If people still want to lnk definitions and nitpick thats their right. But if you actually sit back and really think about it, the term no longer applies.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
I approve of your first post in 3 years
Yep what the haters fail to realize is that many of the leaks, some of which were on this forum, that they cried fake about were almost exactly what the beta tester quotes explained the game to be.
So sorry guys beta is real...let me know what you come up with at the next troll meeting.
Of course Tasos could have multiple accounts on this forum and have been all the leaks himself, which would explain why they sounded the same as the quotes in the update. Sad thing is some people actually think that that is an actual possibility lol.
Even if the beta is real, Darkfall is still in the vaporware category, just like Half Life used to be, before it released and turned out to be a good game.
A "real" beta doesn't take a game out of the vaporware category. The only way for Darkfall to get out of the vaporware category is to release a good game, just like Valve did with Half Life.
People calling Darkfall vaporware are no more trolls than the people that called Half Life vaporware were "trolls". Half Life was indeed vaporware at one time, according to the accepted definition of the term.
There doesn't have to be "another troll meeting". Darkfall just has to release a good game, and until then it's vaporware, just like Half Life was. Nothing much you can do about that.
The difference here, is that the TROLLS are the ones who slapped the vaporware label on. There is a difference between people who don't like the game idea, skeptics that it will deliver, fans, fanboys, and TROLLS. The trolls ran around night and day saying they couldn't find Aventurine's office on google maps, the screenshots were doctored, the trailers were Gmod footage, all that good stuff put it in the "vaporware" bin. Anyone sensible enough to take a peak inside would have realized "oh, this isn't vaporware, those guys are just morons" like I did.
Once the game goes beyond accepted norms of development cycles, it's vaporware. Who calls it vaporware first, or how often, doesn't really make any difference.
link to your resume that shows you are the grand authority of teh vaporwarez?
edit: and a lot of the vapor definitions also mention something like "and shows no signs of releasing anytime soon"....which DF clearly does.
So clearly vaporware = subjective = moot
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
Duke Nukem Forever!
Guys, it's a game, not a religion!
Of course Tasos could have multiple accounts on this forum and have been all the leaks himself, which would explain why they sounded the same as the quotes in the update. Sad thing is some people actually think that that is an actual possibility lol.
Only to put doubts in your mind:
1) The same you can say is that Tasos copy&paste those" fake" statements to make them more "real".
2) If your guildie told it, them why there is no leak still? No more info that the official ones, why none of the many Visitors of Athene Weekend did a "leak" since they weren't under NDA? Why there is absolutely no solid info about the game, but only Tasos words? (Not even the NDA clause of the beta contract is avaliable, wtf?)
Personally, i don't think DFO is vaporware or don't exist. But i also doubt it will be "awesome". It will end like UFO: Extraterrestrials, a lot of promises, a lot of delays, long years of development and, in the end, the fanboys will like it, the rest will skip.
If a vaporware game is a game that went beyond the "normal" development cycle... what's a normal development cycle? Does itdepend on the size of the company, funds, the actual game, the skills of thedeveloppers, the internal problems, etc, etc, etc?
if it depends on all of these things, most which are unknown, then how can we absolutely stick a vaporware sticker on it?
The answer is, we do,cause we feel like it, or because we don't. We argue over it and state "facts" just like we do with everything else, in a narrow minded way without any real input... I don't blame anyone, though. We're all pretty damn bored, it's the internetz.
I would say a "long development" is like over 3 years after the game is anounced.
Remember, when a game is "anounced": meaning passed basic etages of development.
Aventurine's biggest f-up can be traced to the point they took control of DF in 2002/2003. They knew the game wasnt worthy, and knew it needed significant upgrades/enhancements. If they had just TOLD us they were going to take some serious time to make the game right, I would have cut them more slack. If they had said in 2006, the game just isnt ready for the clan beta we announced in late 2005, I would have given them points for integrity. (yeah, I still would have been pissed) They have done a very poor job managing thier game. I hope they code much better, because their ideas have always been great.
I played TF (and other team shooters) heavily for many years, and waited long for TF2. Eventually, I just got to the point where I didnt play team shooters anymore. TF2 will always be vapor to me, just another "could have been".
I get that you stopped playing shooters...but how is TF2 always going to be vapor to you? Just proves that the term vapor is just tossed around loosely.
Sorry buy a company delaying the game to make it better is not vapor.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
I get that you stopped playing shooters...but how is TF2 always going to be vapor to you? Just proves that the term vapor is just tossed around loosely.
Sorry buy a company delaying the game to make it better is not vapor.
Of course TF2 released. Sorry I waxed a little poetic back there. But my point is that these things do have a shelf life, at least to individuals. Things can change for you in 10 years time.
Vaporware is software / hardware that is never released.
Half Life was Valve's very first game, and it get delayed numerous times. They were all new programmers who had just broken off from Microsoft. Your argument is void.
Valve was founded in Aug 1996, and released Half-Life in Nov 1998, after being formally put into production sometime in 1997. (merged the content/resources of two different games)
planethalflife.gamespy.com/View.php
There is no comparision. We know thiis about the founders:
August 24, 1996 – Valve is founded as an L.L.C. in Kirkland, WA by former Microsoft employees Gabe Newell and Mike Harrington, instrumental minds behind nearly three generations of the Windows operating system.
Most of what we know about Tasos and his team is disputable, include several proven untruths as to their backgrounds and programming skills.
Also note this important distinction: In 1997, shortly after announcing the new project it was first shown to the public at the E3 convention. which is a well known gaming venue, as opposed to DF being displayed at obscure gaming conventions in Greece with little fanfare or attendence by the mainstream press.
Aventurine has only itself to blame for all the skepticism and doubt, they could quite easily chose to dispel it all, but for reasons only known to themselves they won't.
Oh well, sooner or later we'll find out what they've been keeping so secret, and the mystery will be over.
Too true. On another note, I think 8 years for development of an MMO is borderline fuckin retarded. By the time development is through the graphics will be obsolete, the features outdated, and the play severely damaged.
-----------------------------
Real as Reality Television!!!
Half Life was Valve's very first game, and it get delayed numerous times. They were all new programmers who had just broken off from Microsoft. Your argument is void.
Valve was founded in Aug 1996, and released Half-Life in Nov 1998, after being formally put into production sometime in 1997. (merged the content/resources of two different games)
planethalflife.gamespy.com/View.php
There is no comparision. We know thiis about the founders:
August 24, 1996 – Valve is founded as an L.L.C. in Kirkland, WA by former Microsoft employees Gabe Newell and Mike Harrington, instrumental minds behind nearly three generations of the Windows operating system.
Most of what we know about Tasos and his team is disputable, include several proven untruths as to their backgrounds and programming skills.
Also note this important distinction: In 1997, shortly after announcing the new project it was first shown to the public at the E3 convention. which is a well known gaming venue, as opposed to DF being displayed at obscure gaming conventions in Greece with little fanfare or attendence by the mainstream press.
Aventurine has only itself to blame for all the skepticism and doubt, they could quite easily chose to dispel it all, but for reasons only known to themselves they won't.
Oh well, sooner or later we'll find out what they've been keeping so secret, and the mystery will be over.
Too true. On another note, I think 8 years for development of an MMO is borderline fuckin retarded. By the time development is through the graphics will be obsolete, the features outdated, and the play severely damaged.
Normally I would agree...
Its just that the game that will be released has been in development for 5 years....
The graphics are already considered to be better or at least on par with WAR which was released this year....and beta tester quotes confirm that. So obselete? hardly.....
Features outdated? Well seeing as how DF, if they are feature complete, will have multiple innovative features you cant find in other MMOs in the same game....then ok?
Play severly damaged by a longer development cycle to iron out bugs etc...hmmm gonna have to help me understand that one chief. Sound like the gameplay is doing pretty good.
---sig---
Click this for lulz: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173737/page/6
originalegg,
Why is it such a big deal for you if someone calls Darkfall vaporware?
Why do you care?
I know you're an avid follower of Darkfall and are really looking foward to the game. But, at this point and time, it IS vaporware. It doesn't matter what defintion you use.
All software can be considered vaporware until it is released. This is the common theme in any definition you use. Does Darkfall fall into that category? Yes.
I don't see why it's even a point of debate. Shouldn't we be debating something that actually MATTERS to the game? Like the fact that the UI is subpar, load times through chunks is too long, combat is cumbersome and tricky, ect...
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
All this proves is that the vaportrolls' were right in calling DF vaporware. Then you're left with faith as regards the outcome of the game and I would have much more faith in Valve than Aventurine.
I also don't see why originalegg kicks and screams when someone calls Darkfall vaporware, why he seems to take it so personally.
It's no big deal. Darkfall is Vaporware by any defnition, but if it releases and turns out to be a good game, it can redeem itself. Better to concentrate on that redemption, than fighting the obvious fact that Darkfall is at this point Vaporware.
I would disagree that any software is vaporware before it releases. It doesn't turn into vaporware until things start to go very differently during the development from other similar software releases.
For example, I followed the development, and was in the beta for LoTro, Vanguard, and Shadowbane. It's not just a hard time like that originalegg wants to make it, like "5 years".
It's that you deviate way outside the norm for development of this sort of software, which Darkfall certainly has.
If Darkfall is good I'll play it, but until it releases it's Vaporware. Old Republic, on the other hand, is not yet in the vaporware category because it hasn't fallen way outside the norn, yet, for development.
And no, that doesn't mean the norm is 5 years, but if a game goes 5 years and one month, it's vaporware. I'm sure orignialegg knows all the things that make the Darkfall development cycle different from other games even better than I do, and it's all those things that add up to make Darkfall Vaporware.
IMO, Orignialegg is still arguing that Darkfall is not a Hoax. I agree, I don't think Darkfall is a Hoax.
Vaporware has no official definition. Maybe I'm outdated, but it always just meant 'software that gets hyped and people get excited about, but then never releases'. This was back when it was just a random term tossed about, and didn't have it's own wikipedia article (because wikipedia didn't exist).
I can go edit the wikipedia article to say 'Vaporware is anything but Darkfall lolz', wikipedia is not the be all and end all of internet arguments.
Fact of the matter is, vaporware is a term used by trolls a lot (trolls in the MMORPG.com sense - people who post nothing but negative comments in every thread of a forum). So people who use the term vaporware on this forum tend to get labelled as trolls - because 90% of the time, when the term is used it's used by TenSpotting or Polarization (people who are trolls - they have been suspended from these forums for trolling), or one of the other individuals who spend every waking hour on these forums posting nothing but endless, excessive slander and lies.
Unfortunately, 10% of the time, it wasn't a troll. It was just an idiot.
Well, you could go edit Wikipedia like that, but if it's not the general consensus of the definition, then it will be removed.
I would tend to agree with you, you are outdated.
The leading mmo company for vaporware appears to be ea-games presently along with any one company that cancells mmo's and shits on there fanbase.
playing eq2 and two worlds
ugh vaporware is a game thats probably not gonna be released.
Sure its subjective, but to think that a game that has a CONFIRMED beta (all the leaks were substantiated in tasos' super update... there's a game website that tested the beta and did a review...) is vaporware and is probably not gonna be released is borderline retarded. It doesn't matter if their PR is unconventional (nonexistant), it doesn't matter if they constantly delayed, and it doesn't matter that their beta is tiny, they have a beta and people are playing the freaking game! 80% of the people who call DF vaporware are trolls, the other 20% are idiots.
If your not a troll, or an idiot, and you think DF is the vap0rz, you need to do some deep soul searching because there's definately a personal reason you don't like darkfall.
When I'm energetic I'm:
the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
When I'm at default I'm:
WHITE/BLUE
Lol according to this I'm bipolar :O
Nothing personal, just seems you don't understand the defintion of vaporware.
Being in beta doesn't mean a game is not vaporware. Even releasing a game doesn't mean it's not vaporware if it fails to perform properly.
Don't get mad, some really great games, like Half Life started out as Vaporwar. Darkfall may one day be in the company of those sorts of games.
There's nothing to get so upset about. Just because Darkfall is Vaporware now, doesn't mean it can't redeem itself later.
I hope Darkfall releases a solid playable game. If it is, I'll give it a try. But until then, it's Vaporware and calling people idiots and trolls can't change that.
You seem to be arguing that Darkfall is not a Hoax. I agee with you. I don't think Darkfall is a Hoax.
This is the definition that I would use as well, and far as I know as long as commericial software has existed this been the generally accepted definition. Maybe the public perception of it has changed recently due to people getting butt hurt by being wrong.
It is obvious that this is also the definition that the trolls are using because the subtext of their arguement is that it won't ever release.
This is the definition that I would use as well, and far as I know as long as commericial software has existed this been the generally accepted definition. Maybe the public perception of it has changed recently due to people getting butt hurt by being wrong.
It is obvious that this is also the definition that the trolls are using because the subtext of their arguement is that it won't ever release.
It might be helpful if you thought about software that's not game releated.
If Microsoft was releasing a new accounting software, and it was way behind schedule, had failed to release, was having problems with a beta test and so forth, and people said, well that's vaporware, would you feel you just had to call those people "trolls'" or your head would explode?
Or would you just say, yea, at this point it's vaporware, maybe they'll release something decent at some point, we'll just have to see. There wouldn't be any "subtext" just software that is not on track, not really that big of a deal. It happens all the time, and it happened to Darkfall.
I wouldn't call them trolls unless they were writing post designed to provoke people on internet forums about it.
I would however say that their assessment of it being vaporware was wrong if it ever released.
This may sound wise, but it's actually quite stupid because valve didn't had succes either before making and actually releasing a game.
Every new game company starts with nothing, some turn out great. others not.
So let's see what happens with aventurine after the DFO release.
I wouldn't call them trolls unless they were writing post designed to provoke people on internet forums about it.
I would however say that their assessment of it being vaporware was wrong if it ever released.
And by that definition, Darkfall would be vaporware now, but not after it successfully releases.