Afraid of it getting dumbed-down next year

unreal · December 2008

I don't wanna start... anything. I'm just expressing some concerns. They said at some point:

Before we start dreaming and putting those dreams into practice, we need to stabilise the game and rectify some of the issues that might put off new players. We need to get profitable first and to do that we need to tidy things up and make the game a lot more user-friendly and accessible to as many people as possible, without diluting what makes Ryzom special.

I recently started playing the game after looking for something with more depth, to remind me of the old days I was playing text- based MUDs (or Eternal Lands if anyone played it). I think I finally found the closest game to what I was looking for, after testing lots of MMOs. Making it more user friendly and accessible for as many people as possible greatly concerns me. I wouldn't want to see them filling it up with quests, altering the crafting/harvesting to be easier etc. Some things must be improved and lots of content added, sure, but I'm just afraid the SWG thing will happen again and in a month or two I'll end up playing a total different game "for the masses" that I won't enjoy anymore...

sanders01 · December 2008

I hope they dont, because I wouldnt play it anyway

MaDSaM · December 2008

Well, these concerns have been expressed over and over and over and over and over again on every board that´s even marginally related to Ryzom and gaming in general

And I think, (hope) that the last bit you yourself quoted up there is and will be taken seriously by Spiderweb and they : "make the game a lot more user-friendly and accessible to as many people as possible, without diluting what makes Ryzom special."

It will be a real tightrope act for them, trying as much as possible to stay true to the things we´ve come to love about the game and at the same time putting in as much "User friendly" things as possible to not scare away those who (sadly) expect something easier and (sadly) despise many of the things that make Ryzom what it is.

Ryzoms identity stems from being not overly "easy to access" and from having to use your brain more than you reflexes and a few simple math skills. In Ryzom you as the player must "learn" at least as much about the game to play it successfully as your charakter does, only difference is you as a person don´t have to spend Experience points only a little time and maybe some braincells

In addition, with no written Questlines" people came to know from other games, new players often expect to be led by the hand through some story or other, that everyone has done and will do at some point. Luckily that isn´t the case in Ryzom, here you´re able to write your own history. To experience a unique "Saga" of your own making. Not everyone will have killed the dragon Smokemaw at some point, or will have looted the booty of the Pirate-King. Admittedly everyone will sooner later try to take down a bossmob, or venture into the prime roots to look for special materials, but these are things you can choose to do.

You´re not (and I guess some will argue that point) forced to do these things in an endless "quest" for gear/fame and most importantly fun. I admit to sometimes feeling a bit bored Ingame, but hell it took me 4 years to reach this point, in WoW I was bored after about two days.

The obvious Problem though is, that many, many ,many, many Players out there despise using their own brain in a game and expect/demand that a "good game" essentially does most of their thinking for them. In the form of repeatable quests and cool loot and all that stuff that made WoW the succsses that it is today. This is sad.

Because, did you notice?

Once you start a new game, while some in general chat are analyzing the unique features of the new world to play in, many immediately begin to complain about :

"WoW has feature XX, why isn´t this here?"

"Why doesn´t XY work like in WoW?"

those people are spoiled and, sorry for the harsh word, braindead to me. Why begin a NEW game when essentially looking for the same old?

Every new game that will ever be created, will have to live up to the "standards" that WoW has set.

In some ways this is Ok, for Blizzard has certainly done a good job in creating an enjoyable experience for the masses. But in so many other ways that people think of, this is SO wrong that it saddens me.

Why are so many people only able to enjoy a game that "feels like WoW"?

On the flipside of the coin, you´ll only have to look at the different boards here, many, but seemingly as not as much, players are complaining about new games being too much like WoW in some respects.

Isn´t that funny?

Developers and creators are trying hard to create new and unique features and for some these are too "much like home" and for others the exact same feature is "too alien".

People are strange.

Anyway, Ryzom will hopefully stay as unique as possible, for even I as a staunch supporter of its philosophy and true lover of its gameworld and yes, FANBOY and proud of it, won´t stand for it, if it is ever dumbed down to "normal" level.

Ryzom dares to be different.

Do you dare to adapt?

CU

SaM / Acridiel

Sherkalyn · December 2008

There's been issues for years in the newbie island that turn-off the newcommers by being unneccessarly unfriendly or unclear. Those need to get fixed. Make kill counts update correctly at least for some of the fight and magic missions.

unreal · December 2008

That was a great read Madsam.

As I see it, they should fix the trial island if they want it more user friendly. Give people a good understanding of the game (or better, as the missions are already there) while being easy on them, but after that, they should stick to the same recipe that there is now. A friendlier newbie experience I wouldn't mind, just don't dumb down the whole game afterwards.

And yes, people are weird. I see people asking more and more for a good sandbox game now. Everyone's waiting for Darkfall with hopes high up. So that must mean people got actually bored of the WoW-like braindead gameplay (no offense - let's call it not complex, liniar). There may be hope for these kind of games afterwards, devs don't need to make their games as easy as possible, to appeal for every kid out there, as more and more players got bored of that.

Please improve Ryzom, but don't ruin the aspects that make it so immersive and unique. Some more advertising would be great too

Piquedram · December 2008

let's hope they won't dumb it down. Maybe all they mean is an interface revamp and the fixing of some missions. And i'd also like some "long term" missions,

"Go help the Green Seed - the Green Seed are our friends, that help guarding the road near Yrkanis. Help them with missions and get your fame with them up to 66 and the Matis nation will be grateful"

or guildmissions,

"Help rid the Atysian Prime Roots of Kinchers - Go to PR and kill 500 kinchers per week to get 10% higher mat production from your OP for the next week"

Document1 · December 2008

You guys understand that game in its current form has been resurected twice now? Pff be happy it is still up lol... even if it means a little dumbing down.

Zorvan · December 2008

Originally posted by unreal

That was a great read Madsam.
As I see it, they should fix the trial island if they want it more user friendly. Give people a good understanding of the game (or better, as the missions are already there) while being easy on them, but after that, they should stick to the same recipe that there is now. A friendlier newbie experience I wouldn't mind, just don't dumb down the whole game afterwards.
And yes, people are weird. I see people asking more and more for a good sandbox game now. Everyone's waiting for Darkfall with hopes high up. So that must mean people got actually bored of the WoW-like braindead gameplay (no offense - let's call it not complex, liniar). There may be hope for these kind of games afterwards, devs don't need to make their games as easy as possible, to appeal for every kid out there, as more and more players got bored of that.
Please improve Ryzom, but don't ruin the aspects that make it so immersive and unique. Some more advertising would be great too

When new players play the trial island, they see a game like WoW. Quest at every turn, a direction to go. When they hit mainland, they see Ryzom and wonder what the hell happened. Either make the island like the mainland, or the mainland like the island. A lot of new players look at the two different play styles as a "bait and switch" tactic.

The complaints were most prominent when the game was pay to play, as new players felt they were "tricked" into subscribing by a trial island that was nothing at all like the mainland. With the game free to play at the moment, there is not even the luxury of getting that first months subscription fee. The new player sees the contrast, and leaves.

MaDSaM · December 2008

Agreed Zorvan.

But the great difficulty is to get this transition in either direction done, without transforming Ryzom into another WoW clone. And that´s what many of us do fear most.

CU

SaM

WSIMike · January 2009

Originally posted by unreal

I don't wanna start... anything. I'm just expressing some concerns. They said at some point:

Before we start “dreaming” and putting those dreams into practice, we need to stabilise the game and rectify some of the issues that might put off new players. We need to get profitable first and to do that we need to tidy things up and make the game a lot more user-friendly and accessible to as many people as possible, without diluting what makes Ryzom special.

I recently started playing the game after looking for something with more depth, to remind me of the old days I was playing text- based MUDs (or Eternal Lands if anyone played it). I think I finally found the closest game to what I was looking for, after testing lots of MMOs. Making it more user friendly and accessible for as many people as possible greatly concerns me. I wouldn't want to see them filling it up with quests, altering the crafting/harvesting to be easier etc. Some things must be improved and lots of content added, sure, but I'm just afraid the SWG thing will happen again and in a month or two I'll end up playing a total different game "for the masses" that I won't enjoy anymore...

Yikes. Yeah, their wording is a bit disconcerting. "Accessible to as many people as possible" is a pretty wide-open statement. "As many people as possible" could imply a pretty low common-denominator.

I would hope they qualify that by stating exactly what they hope to attract. Thing is, you don't need millions of players to be successful. You don't even need a million to be profitable or successful. FFXI is very much a niche MMO. It has 500k players and they're doing quite fine.

Even a MMO with 200k players is doing well so long as their overhead is in balance.

I would hope they want to appeal to "as many people as possible" within a certain cross-section of people... ie. people who want a more open, less linear, sand-box like experience, but want it to be a bit easier to get into... without becoming another "hold your hand every step of the way" affair where every decision is, as someone else put it, made for you and all you have to do is choose path A, B or C.

That would terribly undermine what Ryzom is and would be a slap in the face to those who have stuck by it - including through its "down time".

So, yeah... here's hoping they don't go overboard.

unreal · January 2009

Well they kind of want two opposing things:

a lot more user-friendly and accessible to as many people as possible

and

without diluting what makes Ryzom special.

You gotta delve deep into Ryzom to love it and even then, it's not for everyone. But this makes it special. It's been said it's best to be easy to play, hard to master. Yeah, I partially agree. But in any sandbox game, you'll be overhelmed by the amount of options you have and the lack of directions. It's the point of being sandboxish, and it's not user friendly, well not at first anyway and that first opinion counts for the ones just trying out the game. Takes time for you to get familiar with it. And really, if you don't have patience for that, then Ryzom is not for you. A sandbox is not about immediate results.

And yeh, not a good idea to make the noob zone totally different to the mainland as people will be expecting something that's not there. Think their best bet would be to improve the starting missions. Just let people manage on their own more. That way they'll see what Ryzom is all about and decide if they like it or not. Really, any other way of dealing with it and it'll be a total mess.

troydavid · January 2009

well that's would be one more down. Did Sony buy it?

Now all we have to get done is "skill trees" implemented in EVE instead of that pesky current skill system. Furthermore, why is there so much reading in those games. . .I play games to be the awesome hero. . . not read. Or think for that matter.

T

MaDSaM · January 2009

Originally posted by troydavid

Furthermore, why is there so much reading in those games. . .I play games to be the awesome hero. . . not read. Or think for that matter.
T

Well, that´s gotta be the quote of the month for me.

I realy, realy hope you were just being sarcastic, or ironic. Please?

*sigh*

CU

SaM

troydavid · January 2009

You must read my other posts, I guess.

T

Sherkalyn · January 2009

I don't think that adding kitins to make some resources harder and more challenging to obtain is dumbing it down. Making the game easier to understand by clarifying the instructions without dumbing down the mechanics is the only way to go.

Chiang should emit a last warning as the refugees leave the island. "Now that you are leaving Silan, the Rangers will not be there to hand you equipment and guide you, anymore. You will have to rely on yourself and other homins to obtain what you need to survive on Atys. Good luck."

Some of the newbie quests are just really clunky and need to get fixed. And, hell, social mobs should be social !

catfud · January 2009

Maybe they should just scrap the silan and have players start in the main towns, that way towns would have a higher population and they could get a better feel for the game. Quest givers could easily be placed in the towns to get the player started on the basics. Then players would get a feel for how ryzom actually is with lots of fellow noobs to help them out. I don't know if the mobs around main towns would need to be adjusted slightly to be more new player friendly? Perhaps have an optional solo tutorial the player can go through to be explained the basics before playing the game (so to speak)

Tuyet · January 2009

Silan is excellent in concept just not completely polished up imo. Get the counters right, adjust the node popping timers on the harvset missions, make clear that the mainland is not quest/reward based, and whatever else needs to be polished like for instance I've heard the acid 3 spell info and action window says its available at offensive magic 20 but actually you can not get it till your offensive skill magic 21 as that's when the offensive skill branch starts -- what??? the info window is a puzzle?

Editted acid 2 to read acid 3

War_Dancer · January 2009

Originally posted by MaDSaM

Originally posted by troydavid

Furthermore, why is there so much reading in those games. . .I play games to be the awesome hero. . . not read. Or think for that matter.
T

Well, that´s gotta be the quote of the month for me.

I realy, realy hope you were just being sarcastic, or ironic. Please?

*sigh*

CU

SaM

I'm just explaining the joke for Massam. Anyone who doesn't want to read more about SWG again should skip the explenation below;

It's a joke about Nancy McIntyre who as one of the main spin doctors for LucasArts on the dumbing down of SWG said "There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities." The really scary part is after that she moved from LucasArts to a company specialising in "innovative learning products"

Mariann · January 2009

Now I am really worried for my children...

Hopefully Nancy McIntyre stays out of the gaming industry.

unreal · January 2009

Well gladly SoE stays away from this game. They're the most money hungry company ever. And the sad part is they're not even successful at that.

I guess we'll see from February how the game evolves when the subscriptions will start. Don't think they'll add any major patch till then. All the secret around the new devs is a bit odd though

Rhyoin · January 2009

Originally posted by unreal

Well gladly SoE stays away from this game. They're the most money hungry company ever. And the sad part is they're not even successful at that.
I guess we'll see from February how the game evolves when the subscriptions will start. Don't think they'll add any major patch till then. All the secret around the new devs is a bit odd though

Off topic here, but EA is probably more greedy than SOE is..EA is working towards a monopoly with them buying tons of studios and any hat gets in their way. And they put more crap out than SOE does

Sovrath · January 2009

Originally posted by Document1

You guys understand that game in its current form has been resurected twice now? Pff be happy it is still up lol... even if it means a little dumbing down.

Actually I was thinking the EXACT same thing.

Of course it would suck if they changed too many fundamentals about the game, but look, it was dead. Period. Over.

at least you get one more chance to enjoy yourself for a little longer.

Cynthe · January 2009

Originally posted by Sherkalyn

I don't think that adding kitins to make some resources harder and more challenging to obtain is dumbing it down. Making the game easier to understand by clarifying the instructions without dumbing down the mechanics is the only way to go.
Chiang should emit a last warning as the refugees leave the island. "Now that you are leaving Silan, the Rangers will not be there to hand you equipment and guide you, anymore. You will have to rely on yourself and other homins to obtain what you need to survive on Atys. Good luck."
Some of the newbie quests are just really clunky and need to get fixed. And, hell, social mobs should be social !

YES!!!!!!

I find Silan to be very misleading, it doesn't prepare you for the mainland at all, it just gives you stuff (you may never use anyway) to make sure you can survive but it doesn't really teach you how to find mission items for example. It does fine at explaining the very basics, but when I got to Zora for example I was very lost. Even with all my stuff and my newbie skills. I knew how to craft and find my crafting mats, how to level. Then I thought let's look at the newbie missions. And then was horribly confused. Where do I find thorns, dead leaves or goo? They tell you where to dig on Silan, they don't tell you on the mainland, maybe because it could be anywhere... I'm not sure, I wish the welcomer lady would have said so if that was the case.

Tuyet · January 2009

Originally posted by Cynthe

YES!!!!!!
I find Silan to be very misleading, it doesn't prepare you for the mainland at all, it just gives you stuff (you may never use anyway) to make sure you can survive but it doesn't really teach you how to find mission items for example. It does fine at explaining the very basics, but when I got to Zora for example I was very lost. Even with all my stuff and my newbie skills. I knew how to craft and find my crafting mats, how to level. Then I thought let's look at the newbie missions. And then was horribly confused. Where do I find thorns, dead leaves or goo? They tell you where to dig on Silan, they don't tell you on the mainland, maybe because it could be anywhere... I'm not sure, I wish the welcomer lady would have said so if that was the case.

The harvest mission material missions can be very hard as there are no special skills in the game for finding them other than tracking for the basic mat quality ( basic, fine, choice, excellent, supreme ). And then you have to prospect in an area to see if there are mission materials or just normal craft materials there. And then you may heve to prospect several times to get a particular material to pop. Most of us just use the maps that have the mision material locations on them ( from http://ryzom.raum.com/?t=reg). But must have been an awful lot of work to find all of them.

There are some even more frustrating missions in Zorai lands though -- missions involving creatures infected with Goo -- there are no Goo infected creatures on the mainland. Even more confusing considering there are Goo infected creatures on Silan.

So the first patch is nice and does clear up some bugs that probably turn off newer players but there are still some things that should probably be looked at.

Editted link

Cynthe · January 2009

Originally posted by Tuyet

( from www.ryzom.raum.com ). But must have been an awful lot of work to find all of them.
There are some even more frustrating missions in Zorai lands though -- missions involving creatures infected with Goo -- there are no Goo infected creatures on the mainland. Even more confusing considering there are Goo infected creatures on Silan.

Now see that's pretty inconsistent.

The website you linked isn't working for me too, is there somewhere else I could look it up?

Tuyet · January 2009

editted link to http://ryzom.raum.com/?t=reg

my bad and actually most of us just don't even do those missions after trying out those missions. However, there are a couple of Encyclopedia missions involving harvesting mission materials that do have some sort of nice or unique rewards that are somwwhat worth doing although not critical by any means. A word of warning however there is an Encyclopedia mission that adds more harvest time to nodes prospected and almost all players consider that to be unadvantageous, not sure I agree but I have no intention of doing it myself. Would definitely be better if it was a stanza rather than just an ability.

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