I have been watching socialism destroy the world my whole life. ...
Can you point some examples?
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside.
Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this.
Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy.
See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
Don't assume that I'm unable or unwilling to understand. If you're sufficiently versed in an area, you should be able to explain it to virtually anybody.
I'll leave the rest of the countries out of this, and just ask about the ol' USA. What are you referring to when you say "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."?
I am assuming nothing. I can explain anything to anyone. take some time and read my hundreds of posts and see that. however, what you are bringing up has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (except to help me prove my point).
back to the context you keep wanting to drop, I feel you should already know all of this, and the fact that you don't proves that good people can believe in or accept evil ideas. It proves my point to Devilicious which you are trying tp hijack, yet at the same time making my point to her for me.
I do not want to hijack this thread into a debate about why socialism is evil. If you don't know this, great, feel free to your views. I have wasted far too many hours arguing about THAT subject on these forums (which also proves my point). Read my old posts if you want that. Read the hundreds of essays and books on the subject.
However, even though it was an attempt at a sidebar hijack, I am glad you came along to show Devilicious what I am talking about. You see, Devilicious, we have here a perfect example of an obviously bright guy who does not see how evil socialism is. He doesn't see it as slavery, unless of course he is just being a troll and just wants to start an internet fight.
...
Ahh but you are making assumptions. You're assuming that either I'm ignorant about socialism, or that I'm trolling your thread. I just asked some questions about your statements, no pretext, no trolling.
I just wanted some more depth on those particular items that I responded to.
Well, we always make assumptions about everything in the universe -- we need to do so to even think and/or communicate. In context, I wasn't assuming anything. I certainly NEVER assumed you were ignorant about socialism. I was assuming you didn't believe it to be evil, which is why you asked me to defend my position. If you also feel it is evil, then you were just trolling.
Either way, in the spririt on not hijacking as you keep tryng to do, back to the subject.
The point is, you shouldn't need me to explain it to you. If you don't know how and why socialism is evil, and how it is destroying the world, then we need no Grand conspiracy of socialists to devour the world.
But back to what YOu want to talk about. You asked a question that amounted to a hijack. You didn't want MY answers at all. You wanted to see what my answers were, so you could then start an argument on a side topic that had nothing to do with what I was discussing. Yes, i am assuming that, because I am assuming you were being honest and not a troll. You want to argue about socialism, and whether it is evil. Start a thread for it if that's your goal and you really want some depth.
I have been watching socialism destroy the world my whole life. ...
Can you point some examples?
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside.
Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this.
Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy.
See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
Don't assume that I'm unable or unwilling to understand. If you're sufficiently versed in an area, you should be able to explain it to virtually anybody.
I'll leave the rest of the countries out of this, and just ask about the ol' USA. What are you referring to when you say "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."?
I am assuming nothing. I can explain anything to anyone. take some time and read my hundreds of posts and see that. however, what you are bringing up has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (except to help me prove my point).
back to the context you keep wanting to drop, I feel you should already know all of this, and the fact that you don't proves that good people can believe in or accept evil ideas. It proves my point to Devilicious which you are trying tp hijack, yet at the same time making my point to her for me.
I do not want to hijack this thread into a debate about why socialism is evil. If you don't know this, great, feel free to your views. I have wasted far too many hours arguing about THAT subject on these forums (which also proves my point). Read my old posts if you want that. Read the hundreds of essays and books on the subject.
However, even though it was an attempt at a sidebar hijack, I am glad you came along to show Devilicious what I am talking about. You see, Devilicious, we have here a perfect example of an obviously bright guy who does not see how evil socialism is. He doesn't see it as slavery, unless of course he is just being a troll and just wants to start an internet fight.
...
Ahh but you are making assumptions. You're assuming that either I'm ignorant about socialism, or that I'm trolling your thread. I just asked some questions about your statements, no pretext, no trolling.
I just wanted some more depth on those particular items that I responded to.
Well, we always make assumptions about everything in the universe -- we need to do so to even think and/or communicate. In context, I wasn't assuming anything. I certainly NEVER assumed you were ignorant about socialism. I was assuming you didn't believe it to be evil, which is why you asked me to defend my position. If you also feel it is evil, then you were just trolling.
Either way, in the spririt on not hijacking as you keep tryng to do, back to the subject.
The point is, you shouldn't need me to explain it to you. If you don't know how and why socialism is evil, and how it is destroying the world, then we need no Grand conspiracy of socialists to devour the world.
But back to what YOu want to talk about. You asked a question that amounted to a hijack. You didn't want MY answers at all. You wanted to see what my answers were, so you could then start an argument on a side topic that had nothing to do with what I was discussing. Yes, i am assuming that, because I am assuming you were being honest and not a troll. You want to argue about socialism, and whether it is evil. Start a thread for it if that's your goal and you really want some depth.
You make way too many assumptions. If it helps, I'm the first generation born in North America, the first of many in my family who wasn't born or raised in a communist state. From the horrors some of them have endured (those that are still alive), I'm well aware of what socialism can be.
It's not really a hijack since the thread is about the American economy. Perhaps the first question was more out of interest, but the 2nd is right in line with the thread (the question about "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."). Would be nice to get some more depth on that point, but you can choose not to answer. Cheers.
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside. Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this. Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy. See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
You can show me all the stupid people in the world, but I still know that there is intelligence behind it fueling it. They have been socially groomed for this .. of course the masses will believe anything I mean hell look at the diamond industry.. we all know that it is a farse yet they convinced the entire world through marketing that they are "rare precious stones" thatare the symbol of love .. people did not give diamond rings traditionaly on weddings until they were marketed to do so. and yes just as that was planned, and they have proven that it was planned, ( not just some conspiracy theory) thisis the actual truth about debeers! lol
You see Fisher, I was not sent in this direction by essays, conspiracy theorists, or anything I read on line or watched on Television. The people in my life are not your "average joes" or your " wanna be theorists" The conversations I have had, the people I have had them with are what lead me to this ... There are things I am not at liberty to discuss, and there are things I would like to find out though I don't know why other than just to know , and the quotes I put up earlier were not " proof of any sheppard" they were just that quotes that I applied to this conversation because I was too lazy to relook up anything. Anyone can write a theory, anyone can write an essay and put it online, that doesn;t make it true. Now actual facts, papertrails, events, and actions people took do exist in bits and pieces, but is very difficult to find. You see there are not written documents for alot of what goes on... There is a very good reason the FED would not reveal where the money was going or name those " foreign investors" . Do you think that the people that are intelligent enough to socially groom the world are not intelligent enough to cover their asses? You want me to prove their existance, though you cannot disprove their existance. Mass stupidity does not prove their nonexistance. As sad as Mass stupidity is ... it was planned this way.
I have been watching socialism destroy the world my whole life. ...
Can you point some examples?
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside.
Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this.
Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy.
See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
Don't assume that I'm unable or unwilling to understand. If you're sufficiently versed in an area, you should be able to explain it to virtually anybody.
I'll leave the rest of the countries out of this, and just ask about the ol' USA. What are you referring to when you say "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."?
I am assuming nothing. I can explain anything to anyone. take some time and read my hundreds of posts and see that. however, what you are bringing up has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (except to help me prove my point).
back to the context you keep wanting to drop, I feel you should already know all of this, and the fact that you don't proves that good people can believe in or accept evil ideas. It proves my point to Devilicious which you are trying tp hijack, yet at the same time making my point to her for me.
I do not want to hijack this thread into a debate about why socialism is evil. If you don't know this, great, feel free to your views. I have wasted far too many hours arguing about THAT subject on these forums (which also proves my point). Read my old posts if you want that. Read the hundreds of essays and books on the subject.
However, even though it was an attempt at a sidebar hijack, I am glad you came along to show Devilicious what I am talking about. You see, Devilicious, we have here a perfect example of an obviously bright guy who does not see how evil socialism is. He doesn't see it as slavery, unless of course he is just being a troll and just wants to start an internet fight.
...
Ahh but you are making assumptions. You're assuming that either I'm ignorant about socialism, or that I'm trolling your thread. I just asked some questions about your statements, no pretext, no trolling.
I just wanted some more depth on those particular items that I responded to.
Well, we always make assumptions about everything in the universe -- we need to do so to even think and/or communicate. In context, I wasn't assuming anything. I certainly NEVER assumed you were ignorant about socialism. I was assuming you didn't believe it to be evil, which is why you asked me to defend my position. If you also feel it is evil, then you were just trolling.
Either way, in the spririt on not hijacking as you keep tryng to do, back to the subject.
The point is, you shouldn't need me to explain it to you. If you don't know how and why socialism is evil, and how it is destroying the world, then we need no Grand conspiracy of socialists to devour the world.
But back to what YOu want to talk about. You asked a question that amounted to a hijack. You didn't want MY answers at all. You wanted to see what my answers were, so you could then start an argument on a side topic that had nothing to do with what I was discussing. Yes, i am assuming that, because I am assuming you were being honest and not a troll. You want to argue about socialism, and whether it is evil. Start a thread for it if that's your goal and you really want some depth.
You make way too many assumptions. If it helps, I'm the first generation born in North America, the first of many in my family who wasn't born or raised in a communist state. From the horrors some of them have endured (those that are still alive), I'm well aware of what socialism can be.
It's not really a hijack since the thread is about the American economy. Perhaps the first question was more out of interest, but the 2nd is right in line with the thread (the question about "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."). Would be nice to get some more depth on that point, but you can choose not to answer. Cheers.
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside. Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this. Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy. See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
You can show me all the stupid people in the world, but I still know that there is intelligence behind it fueling it. They have been socially groomed for this .. of course the masses will believe anything I mean hell look at the diamond industry.. we all know that it is a farse yet they convinced the entire world through marketing that they are "rare precious stones" thatare the symbol of love .. people did not give diamond rings traditionaly on weddings until they were marketed to do so. and yes just as that was planned, and they have proven that it was planned, ( not just some conspiracy theory) thisis the actual truth about debeers! lol
You see Fisher, I was not sent in this direction by essays, conspiracy theorists, or anything I read on line or watched on Television. The people in my life are not your "average joes" or your " wanna be theorists" The conversations I have had, the people I have had them with are what lead me to this ... There are things I am not at liberty to discuss, and there are things I would like to find out though I don't know why other than just to know , and the quotes I put up earlier were not " proof of any sheppard" they were just that quotes that I applied to this conversation because I was too lazy to relook up anything. Anyone can write a theory, anyone can write an essay and put it online, that doesn;t make it true. Now actual facts, papertrails, events, and actions people took do exist in bits and pieces, but is very difficult to find. You see there are not written documents for alot of what goes on... There is a very good reason the FED would not reveal where the money was going or name those " foreign investors" . Do you think that the people that are intelligent enough to socially groom the world are not intelligent enough to cover their asses? You want me to prove their existance, though you cannot disprove their existance. Mass stupidity does not prove their nonexistance. As sad as Mass stupidity is ... it was planned this way.
These people are not stupid they are smart people who believe in evil things. No one is pulling their strings. They simply read and decide.
I'm not saying there aren't rich, powerful bad guys; what I am saying is we don't need them. People WANT what you think they have to fool us into. Just read these boards. many people here WANT the slavery of socialism. Well, not exactly. They have conned themselves into thinking that socialism is something other than slavery and then they advocate it and then they vore for it.
Now, as to power brokers, they have less power than they think they do, and far less power than you think they do.
The power is here, in the types of folks we see on these forums -- an honest acceptance and believe in slavery. (even though of course they call it something else).
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. I can understand the situation and still require clarification on statements you've made. Odd that you'd consider that trolling, oh well.
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. I can understand the situation and still require clarification on statements you've made. Odd that you'd consider that trolling, oh well.
Not in the context. You are still trolling and hijacking. Start a thread if you want to debate about socialism and its merits. No clarification was needed or warranted in what I said.
If you agree that socialism is evil, then in the context I was using it, to start an argument about socialism or to try and get me to discuss how it is evil is an obvious hijack.
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside. Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this. Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy. See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
You can show me all the stupid people in the world, but I still know that there is intelligence behind it fueling it. They have been socially groomed for this .. of course the masses will believe anything I mean hell look at the diamond industry.. we all know that it is a farse yet they convinced the entire world through marketing that they are "rare precious stones" thatare the symbol of love .. people did not give diamond rings traditionaly on weddings until they were marketed to do so. and yes just as that was planned, and they have proven that it was planned, ( not just some conspiracy theory) thisis the actual truth about debeers! lol
You see Fisher, I was not sent in this direction by essays, conspiracy theorists, or anything I read on line or watched on Television. The people in my life are not your "average joes" or your " wanna be theorists" The conversations I have had, the people I have had them with are what lead me to this ... There are things I am not at liberty to discuss, and there are things I would like to find out though I don't know why other than just to know , and the quotes I put up earlier were not " proof of any sheppard" they were just that quotes that I applied to this conversation because I was too lazy to relook up anything. Anyone can write a theory, anyone can write an essay and put it online, that doesn;t make it true. Now actual facts, papertrails, events, and actions people took do exist in bits and pieces, but is very difficult to find. You see there are not written documents for alot of what goes on... There is a very good reason the FED would not reveal where the money was going or name those " foreign investors" . Do you think that the people that are intelligent enough to socially groom the world are not intelligent enough to cover their asses? You want me to prove their existance, though you cannot disprove their existance. Mass stupidity does not prove their nonexistance. As sad as Mass stupidity is ... it was planned this way.
These people are not stupid they are smart people who believe in evil things. No one is pulling their strings. They simply read and decide.
I'm not saying there aren't rich, powerful bad guys; what I am saying is we don't need them. People WANT what you think they have to fool us into. Just read these boards. many people here WANT the slavery of socialism. Well, not exactly. They have conned themselves into thinking that socialism is something other than slavery and then they advocate it and then they vore for it.
Now, as to power brokers, they have less power than they think they do, and far less power than you think they do.
The power is here, in the types of folks we see on these forums -- an honest acceptance and believe in slavery. (even though of course they call it something else).
LOl you know you sound like I did when I was a rep for the libertarians back in school
The power of the people ... was a nice dream lol. A very small group of people in this world have all the $$, as long as the world stays with the current system they have control over everyone in it.
as for power brokers .. lol that is a good joke... puppets lol
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. I can understand the situation and still require clarification on statements you've made. Odd that you'd consider that trolling, oh well.
Not in the context. You are still trolling and hijacking. Start a thread if you want to debate about socialism and its merits. No clarification was needed or warranted in what I said.
If you agree that socialism is evil, then in the context I was using it, to start an argument about socialism or to try and get me to discuss how it is evil is an obvious hijack.
Just as you are still doing. Oh well.
*sigh* You made a statement about the economy (seemingly), and I asked for some followup. You keep turning it into a socialism debate, and then declaring it off topic. It sounds like you're more interested in debating socialism than anybody else.
Anyway, I get the feeling you'd rather talk about the Illuminati than the original topic of the thread.
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. I can understand the situation and still require clarification on statements you've made. Odd that you'd consider that trolling, oh well.
Not in the context. You are still trolling and hijacking. Start a thread if you want to debate about socialism and its merits. No clarification was needed or warranted in what I said.
If you agree that socialism is evil, then in the context I was using it, to start an argument about socialism or to try and get me to discuss how it is evil is an obvious hijack.
Just as you are still doing. Oh well.
*sigh* You made a statement about the economy (seemingly), and I asked for some followup. You keep turning it into a socialism debate, and then declaring it off topic. It sounds like you're more interested in debating socialism than anybody else.
Anyway, I get the feeling you'd rather talk about the Illuminati than the original topic of the thread.
No I made a statement about Conspiracy, in answer to another person's statement about Conspiracy, and made a comment mentioning socialism in the context of that discussion, and you chose to attempt to hijack it. Excuse me, succeeded in hijacking.
Note that you have to continually chop things up and break context to even do what you are doing -- a sure sign of an intentional hijack.
It's not what I would rather like to talk about, but whether I am going tp indulge a hijacker. Sadly, I already have far too many times.
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside. Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this. Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy. See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
You can show me all the stupid people in the world, but I still know that there is intelligence behind it fueling it. They have been socially groomed for this .. of course the masses will believe anything I mean hell look at the diamond industry.. we all know that it is a farse yet they convinced the entire world through marketing that they are "rare precious stones" thatare the symbol of love .. people did not give diamond rings traditionaly on weddings until they were marketed to do so. and yes just as that was planned, and they have proven that it was planned, ( not just some conspiracy theory) thisis the actual truth about debeers! lol
You see Fisher, I was not sent in this direction by essays, conspiracy theorists, or anything I read on line or watched on Television. The people in my life are not your "average joes" or your " wanna be theorists" The conversations I have had, the people I have had them with are what lead me to this ... There are things I am not at liberty to discuss, and there are things I would like to find out though I don't know why other than just to know , and the quotes I put up earlier were not " proof of any sheppard" they were just that quotes that I applied to this conversation because I was too lazy to relook up anything. Anyone can write a theory, anyone can write an essay and put it online, that doesn;t make it true. Now actual facts, papertrails, events, and actions people took do exist in bits and pieces, but is very difficult to find. You see there are not written documents for alot of what goes on... There is a very good reason the FED would not reveal where the money was going or name those " foreign investors" . Do you think that the people that are intelligent enough to socially groom the world are not intelligent enough to cover their asses? You want me to prove their existance, though you cannot disprove their existance. Mass stupidity does not prove their nonexistance. As sad as Mass stupidity is ... it was planned this way.
These people are not stupid they are smart people who believe in evil things. No one is pulling their strings. They simply read and decide.
I'm not saying there aren't rich, powerful bad guys; what I am saying is we don't need them. People WANT what you think they have to fool us into. Just read these boards. many people here WANT the slavery of socialism. Well, not exactly. They have conned themselves into thinking that socialism is something other than slavery and then they advocate it and then they vore for it.
Now, as to power brokers, they have less power than they think they do, and far less power than you think they do.
The power is here, in the types of folks we see on these forums -- an honest acceptance and believe in slavery. (even though of course they call it something else).
LOl you know you sound like I did when I was a rep for the libertarians back in school
The power of the people ... was a nice dream lol. A very small group of people in this world have all the $$, as long as the world stays with the current system they have control over everyone in it.
as for power brokers .. lol that is a good joke... puppets lol
And you sound like I did twenty years ago lol.
The people have all the power -- money doesn't matter. Property doesn't matter. Ideas matter, and sadly, the people with all the power BELIEVE in the slavery they are walking into.
Just read this board and you'll see how no conspiracy is needed.
Shareholders were expected to veto it by many people. Lloyds shares (at the time) paid an exceptionally high dividend. Investors bought them for their secure dividend return not for risky capital gain. A five year government ban on dividends in return for a broken bank merger with bailout was not something Lloyds shareholders were keen to swallow.
But don't you understand that is exactly what I am saying?
Lloyds shareholders apparently weren't so sure about the aquisition, so something got in the way that changed their mind.
The government intervention influenced the board decisions, which in turn, influenced the shareholder vote intention.
That's what we are talking about in this thread.
Brown obviously promised to the board something which convinced the major shareholders that it was worth in the long run.
If Brown wouldn't have proposed some kind of deal, do you think Lloyds would have bought HBOS? No.
What the board had to do is to convince the shareholders that the deal was good in the long term, that's their job, to take decision and convince the shareholders to vote for it.
The board is elected mainly by major shareholders, the board decision are mainly taken to benefit the major shareholders decision, they work together hand in hand.
So if the board is convinced that's a good deal, the majority of the time shareholders support the board decision.
The board take the decisions..................the owners rectify this decision with the vote if they agree.
PS: To the people talking about Socialism, start your own thread, don't mess with this one please.
But don't you understand that is exactly what I am saying?
I do understand that. Yes.
My point is that we know more than just the shadey outlines of the deal, we know the details of it. It's public record.
In the case of Lloyds and for decisions of that scale, the board does not take the decisions. It makes the recommendations and then the shareholders take the decisions. I understand that they work hand in hand, but ultimately decisions of such gravity are taken by the owners and not the managers.
It's their call, if they don't want it, it does not happen. It does not matter what new deals Gordon Brown and the CEO come back to the table with, if the owners don't want it, they don't approve it. It doesn't happen. Lloyds was neither coerced nor forced to make this merger. They chose to. It was what they wanted to do.
Sorry, but there was no conspiracy. This merger has had extremely high levels of transparency.
P.S. if the board keeps making propositions to the shareholders that the shareholders don't agree with, they get replaced with board members who won't. People with that kind of wealth and power do not stand idley by and let their employee's yank their chains.
In the case of Lloyds and for decisions of that scale, the board does not take the decisions. It makes the recommendations and then the shareholders take the decisions. I understand that they work hand in hand, but ultimately decisions of such gravity are taken by the owners and not the managers.
I think we are just arguing over a word: "decision"
Of course the shareholders have final decision, that is obvious.
Never than less the executives do take decisions which might be approved or not by the shareholders, of course.
Technically "recommendation" is the right word to use, but since we are not discussing on a financial forum, i don't think you need to be too technical about it to deliver the message.
In the end, what the board "recommends" usually get accepted by the shareholders, so changing the word doesn't change the end result.
The board is the one that usually gets its way (as you experienced yourself)
Comments
I have been watching socialism destroy the world my whole life. ...
Can you point some examples?
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside.
Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this.
Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy.
See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
Don't assume that I'm unable or unwilling to understand. If you're sufficiently versed in an area, you should be able to explain it to virtually anybody.
I'll leave the rest of the countries out of this, and just ask about the ol' USA. What are you referring to when you say "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."?
I am assuming nothing. I can explain anything to anyone. take some time and read my hundreds of posts and see that. however, what you are bringing up has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (except to help me prove my point).
back to the context you keep wanting to drop, I feel you should already know all of this, and the fact that you don't proves that good people can believe in or accept evil ideas. It proves my point to Devilicious which you are trying tp hijack, yet at the same time making my point to her for me.
I do not want to hijack this thread into a debate about why socialism is evil. If you don't know this, great, feel free to your views. I have wasted far too many hours arguing about THAT subject on these forums (which also proves my point). Read my old posts if you want that. Read the hundreds of essays and books on the subject.
However, even though it was an attempt at a sidebar hijack, I am glad you came along to show Devilicious what I am talking about. You see, Devilicious, we have here a perfect example of an obviously bright guy who does not see how evil socialism is. He doesn't see it as slavery, unless of course he is just being a troll and just wants to start an internet fight.
...Ahh but you are making assumptions. You're assuming that either I'm ignorant about socialism, or that I'm trolling your thread. I just asked some questions about your statements, no pretext, no trolling.
I just wanted some more depth on those particular items that I responded to.
Well, we always make assumptions about everything in the universe -- we need to do so to even think and/or communicate. In context, I wasn't assuming anything. I certainly NEVER assumed you were ignorant about socialism. I was assuming you didn't believe it to be evil, which is why you asked me to defend my position. If you also feel it is evil, then you were just trolling.
Either way, in the spririt on not hijacking as you keep tryng to do, back to the subject.
The point is, you shouldn't need me to explain it to you. If you don't know how and why socialism is evil, and how it is destroying the world, then we need no Grand conspiracy of socialists to devour the world.
But back to what YOu want to talk about. You asked a question that amounted to a hijack. You didn't want MY answers at all. You wanted to see what my answers were, so you could then start an argument on a side topic that had nothing to do with what I was discussing. Yes, i am assuming that, because I am assuming you were being honest and not a troll. You want to argue about socialism, and whether it is evil. Start a thread for it if that's your goal and you really want some depth.
fishermage.blogspot.com
I have been watching socialism destroy the world my whole life. ...
Can you point some examples?
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside.
Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this.
Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy.
See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
Don't assume that I'm unable or unwilling to understand. If you're sufficiently versed in an area, you should be able to explain it to virtually anybody.
I'll leave the rest of the countries out of this, and just ask about the ol' USA. What are you referring to when you say "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."?
I am assuming nothing. I can explain anything to anyone. take some time and read my hundreds of posts and see that. however, what you are bringing up has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (except to help me prove my point).
back to the context you keep wanting to drop, I feel you should already know all of this, and the fact that you don't proves that good people can believe in or accept evil ideas. It proves my point to Devilicious which you are trying tp hijack, yet at the same time making my point to her for me.
I do not want to hijack this thread into a debate about why socialism is evil. If you don't know this, great, feel free to your views. I have wasted far too many hours arguing about THAT subject on these forums (which also proves my point). Read my old posts if you want that. Read the hundreds of essays and books on the subject.
However, even though it was an attempt at a sidebar hijack, I am glad you came along to show Devilicious what I am talking about. You see, Devilicious, we have here a perfect example of an obviously bright guy who does not see how evil socialism is. He doesn't see it as slavery, unless of course he is just being a troll and just wants to start an internet fight.
...Ahh but you are making assumptions. You're assuming that either I'm ignorant about socialism, or that I'm trolling your thread. I just asked some questions about your statements, no pretext, no trolling.
I just wanted some more depth on those particular items that I responded to.
Well, we always make assumptions about everything in the universe -- we need to do so to even think and/or communicate. In context, I wasn't assuming anything. I certainly NEVER assumed you were ignorant about socialism. I was assuming you didn't believe it to be evil, which is why you asked me to defend my position. If you also feel it is evil, then you were just trolling.
Either way, in the spririt on not hijacking as you keep tryng to do, back to the subject.
The point is, you shouldn't need me to explain it to you. If you don't know how and why socialism is evil, and how it is destroying the world, then we need no Grand conspiracy of socialists to devour the world.
But back to what YOu want to talk about. You asked a question that amounted to a hijack. You didn't want MY answers at all. You wanted to see what my answers were, so you could then start an argument on a side topic that had nothing to do with what I was discussing. Yes, i am assuming that, because I am assuming you were being honest and not a troll. You want to argue about socialism, and whether it is evil. Start a thread for it if that's your goal and you really want some depth.
You make way too many assumptions. If it helps, I'm the first generation born in North America, the first of many in my family who wasn't born or raised in a communist state. From the horrors some of them have endured (those that are still alive), I'm well aware of what socialism can be.
It's not really a hijack since the thread is about the American economy. Perhaps the first question was more out of interest, but the 2nd is right in line with the thread (the question about "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."). Would be nice to get some more depth on that point, but you can choose not to answer. Cheers.
Multiplayer Games!
You can show me all the stupid people in the world, but I still know that there is intelligence behind it fueling it. They have been socially groomed for this .. of course the masses will believe anything I mean hell look at the diamond industry.. we all know that it is a farse yet they convinced the entire world through marketing that they are "rare precious stones" thatare the symbol of love .. people did not give diamond rings traditionaly on weddings until they were marketed to do so. and yes just as that was planned, and they have proven that it was planned, ( not just some conspiracy theory) thisis the actual truth about debeers! lol
You see Fisher, I was not sent in this direction by essays, conspiracy theorists, or anything I read on line or watched on Television. The people in my life are not your "average joes" or your " wanna be theorists" The conversations I have had, the people I have had them with are what lead me to this ... There are things I am not at liberty to discuss, and there are things I would like to find out though I don't know why other than just to know , and the quotes I put up earlier were not " proof of any sheppard" they were just that quotes that I applied to this conversation because I was too lazy to relook up anything. Anyone can write a theory, anyone can write an essay and put it online, that doesn;t make it true. Now actual facts, papertrails, events, and actions people took do exist in bits and pieces, but is very difficult to find. You see there are not written documents for alot of what goes on... There is a very good reason the FED would not reveal where the money was going or name those " foreign investors" . Do you think that the people that are intelligent enough to socially groom the world are not intelligent enough to cover their asses? You want me to prove their existance, though you cannot disprove their existance. Mass stupidity does not prove their nonexistance. As sad as Mass stupidity is ... it was planned this way.
I have been watching socialism destroy the world my whole life. ...
Can you point some examples?
Russia, China, Germany, Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Turkey, Israel, France, England, Japan, and almost every country on earth. You name it, the cult of cannibalism which is socialism is rotting them all from the inside.
Then, the United States, the freest, greatest capitalist nation in history, embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it. Pretty easy to see and anyone would know this was the result of it, but as I was telling devlicious, most people, like the people she thinks are in charge of a conspiracy, and you, I suppose, don't even understand this.
Thanks for helping me prove its not a conspiracy.
See Devilicious? They do not think it is evil. Why should the "people in power" be any different?
Don't assume that I'm unable or unwilling to understand. If you're sufficiently versed in an area, you should be able to explain it to virtually anybody.
I'll leave the rest of the countries out of this, and just ask about the ol' USA. What are you referring to when you say "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."?
I am assuming nothing. I can explain anything to anyone. take some time and read my hundreds of posts and see that. however, what you are bringing up has nothing to do with the discussion at hand (except to help me prove my point).
back to the context you keep wanting to drop, I feel you should already know all of this, and the fact that you don't proves that good people can believe in or accept evil ideas. It proves my point to Devilicious which you are trying tp hijack, yet at the same time making my point to her for me.
I do not want to hijack this thread into a debate about why socialism is evil. If you don't know this, great, feel free to your views. I have wasted far too many hours arguing about THAT subject on these forums (which also proves my point). Read my old posts if you want that. Read the hundreds of essays and books on the subject.
However, even though it was an attempt at a sidebar hijack, I am glad you came along to show Devilicious what I am talking about. You see, Devilicious, we have here a perfect example of an obviously bright guy who does not see how evil socialism is. He doesn't see it as slavery, unless of course he is just being a troll and just wants to start an internet fight.
...Ahh but you are making assumptions. You're assuming that either I'm ignorant about socialism, or that I'm trolling your thread. I just asked some questions about your statements, no pretext, no trolling.
I just wanted some more depth on those particular items that I responded to.
Well, we always make assumptions about everything in the universe -- we need to do so to even think and/or communicate. In context, I wasn't assuming anything. I certainly NEVER assumed you were ignorant about socialism. I was assuming you didn't believe it to be evil, which is why you asked me to defend my position. If you also feel it is evil, then you were just trolling.
Either way, in the spririt on not hijacking as you keep tryng to do, back to the subject.
The point is, you shouldn't need me to explain it to you. If you don't know how and why socialism is evil, and how it is destroying the world, then we need no Grand conspiracy of socialists to devour the world.
But back to what YOu want to talk about. You asked a question that amounted to a hijack. You didn't want MY answers at all. You wanted to see what my answers were, so you could then start an argument on a side topic that had nothing to do with what I was discussing. Yes, i am assuming that, because I am assuming you were being honest and not a troll. You want to argue about socialism, and whether it is evil. Start a thread for it if that's your goal and you really want some depth.
You make way too many assumptions. If it helps, I'm the first generation born in North America, the first of many in my family who wasn't born or raised in a communist state. From the horrors some of them have endured (those that are still alive), I'm well aware of what socialism can be.
It's not really a hijack since the thread is about the American economy. Perhaps the first question was more out of interest, but the 2nd is right in line with the thread (the question about "embraces socialism and drags the rest of the world with it."). Would be nice to get some more depth on that point, but you can choose not to answer. Cheers.
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
fishermage.blogspot.com
You can show me all the stupid people in the world, but I still know that there is intelligence behind it fueling it. They have been socially groomed for this .. of course the masses will believe anything I mean hell look at the diamond industry.. we all know that it is a farse yet they convinced the entire world through marketing that they are "rare precious stones" thatare the symbol of love .. people did not give diamond rings traditionaly on weddings until they were marketed to do so. and yes just as that was planned, and they have proven that it was planned, ( not just some conspiracy theory) thisis the actual truth about debeers! lol
You see Fisher, I was not sent in this direction by essays, conspiracy theorists, or anything I read on line or watched on Television. The people in my life are not your "average joes" or your " wanna be theorists" The conversations I have had, the people I have had them with are what lead me to this ... There are things I am not at liberty to discuss, and there are things I would like to find out though I don't know why other than just to know , and the quotes I put up earlier were not " proof of any sheppard" they were just that quotes that I applied to this conversation because I was too lazy to relook up anything. Anyone can write a theory, anyone can write an essay and put it online, that doesn;t make it true. Now actual facts, papertrails, events, and actions people took do exist in bits and pieces, but is very difficult to find. You see there are not written documents for alot of what goes on... There is a very good reason the FED would not reveal where the money was going or name those " foreign investors" . Do you think that the people that are intelligent enough to socially groom the world are not intelligent enough to cover their asses? You want me to prove their existance, though you cannot disprove their existance. Mass stupidity does not prove their nonexistance. As sad as Mass stupidity is ... it was planned this way.
These people are not stupid they are smart people who believe in evil things. No one is pulling their strings. They simply read and decide.
I'm not saying there aren't rich, powerful bad guys; what I am saying is we don't need them. People WANT what you think they have to fool us into. Just read these boards. many people here WANT the slavery of socialism. Well, not exactly. They have conned themselves into thinking that socialism is something other than slavery and then they advocate it and then they vore for it.
Now, as to power brokers, they have less power than they think they do, and far less power than you think they do.
The power is here, in the types of folks we see on these forums -- an honest acceptance and believe in slavery. (even though of course they call it something else).
fishermage.blogspot.com
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. I can understand the situation and still require clarification on statements you've made. Odd that you'd consider that trolling, oh well.
Multiplayer Games!
Oh, and Deviliscious, which factions of the Illuminati do your friends belong to? Maybe I know them. I've been at this for awhile.
EDIT: added D's handle since the hijacker jumped in the middle.
fishermage.blogspot.com
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. I can understand the situation and still require clarification on statements you've made. Odd that you'd consider that trolling, oh well.
Not in the context. You are still trolling and hijacking. Start a thread if you want to debate about socialism and its merits. No clarification was needed or warranted in what I said.
If you agree that socialism is evil, then in the context I was using it, to start an argument about socialism or to try and get me to discuss how it is evil is an obvious hijack.
Just as you are still doing. Oh well.
fishermage.blogspot.com
You can show me all the stupid people in the world, but I still know that there is intelligence behind it fueling it. They have been socially groomed for this .. of course the masses will believe anything I mean hell look at the diamond industry.. we all know that it is a farse yet they convinced the entire world through marketing that they are "rare precious stones" thatare the symbol of love .. people did not give diamond rings traditionaly on weddings until they were marketed to do so. and yes just as that was planned, and they have proven that it was planned, ( not just some conspiracy theory) thisis the actual truth about debeers! lol
You see Fisher, I was not sent in this direction by essays, conspiracy theorists, or anything I read on line or watched on Television. The people in my life are not your "average joes" or your " wanna be theorists" The conversations I have had, the people I have had them with are what lead me to this ... There are things I am not at liberty to discuss, and there are things I would like to find out though I don't know why other than just to know , and the quotes I put up earlier were not " proof of any sheppard" they were just that quotes that I applied to this conversation because I was too lazy to relook up anything. Anyone can write a theory, anyone can write an essay and put it online, that doesn;t make it true. Now actual facts, papertrails, events, and actions people took do exist in bits and pieces, but is very difficult to find. You see there are not written documents for alot of what goes on... There is a very good reason the FED would not reveal where the money was going or name those " foreign investors" . Do you think that the people that are intelligent enough to socially groom the world are not intelligent enough to cover their asses? You want me to prove their existance, though you cannot disprove their existance. Mass stupidity does not prove their nonexistance. As sad as Mass stupidity is ... it was planned this way.
These people are not stupid they are smart people who believe in evil things. No one is pulling their strings. They simply read and decide.
I'm not saying there aren't rich, powerful bad guys; what I am saying is we don't need them. People WANT what you think they have to fool us into. Just read these boards. many people here WANT the slavery of socialism. Well, not exactly. They have conned themselves into thinking that socialism is something other than slavery and then they advocate it and then they vore for it.
Now, as to power brokers, they have less power than they think they do, and far less power than you think they do.
The power is here, in the types of folks we see on these forums -- an honest acceptance and believe in slavery. (even though of course they call it something else).
LOl you know you sound like I did when I was a rep for the libertarians back in school
The power of the people ... was a nice dream lol. A very small group of people in this world have all the $$, as long as the world stays with the current system they have control over everyone in it.
as for power brokers .. lol that is a good joke... puppets lol
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. I can understand the situation and still require clarification on statements you've made. Odd that you'd consider that trolling, oh well.
Not in the context. You are still trolling and hijacking. Start a thread if you want to debate about socialism and its merits. No clarification was needed or warranted in what I said.
If you agree that socialism is evil, then in the context I was using it, to start an argument about socialism or to try and get me to discuss how it is evil is an obvious hijack.
Just as you are still doing. Oh well.
*sigh* You made a statement about the economy (seemingly), and I asked for some followup. You keep turning it into a socialism debate, and then declaring it off topic. It sounds like you're more interested in debating socialism than anybody else.
Anyway, I get the feeling you'd rather talk about the Illuminati than the original topic of the thread.
Multiplayer Games!
So you were in fact just trolling. Oh well. Cheers indeed.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. I can understand the situation and still require clarification on statements you've made. Odd that you'd consider that trolling, oh well.
Not in the context. You are still trolling and hijacking. Start a thread if you want to debate about socialism and its merits. No clarification was needed or warranted in what I said.
If you agree that socialism is evil, then in the context I was using it, to start an argument about socialism or to try and get me to discuss how it is evil is an obvious hijack.
Just as you are still doing. Oh well.
*sigh* You made a statement about the economy (seemingly), and I asked for some followup. You keep turning it into a socialism debate, and then declaring it off topic. It sounds like you're more interested in debating socialism than anybody else.
Anyway, I get the feeling you'd rather talk about the Illuminati than the original topic of the thread.
No I made a statement about Conspiracy, in answer to another person's statement about Conspiracy, and made a comment mentioning socialism in the context of that discussion, and you chose to attempt to hijack it. Excuse me, succeeded in hijacking.
Note that you have to continually chop things up and break context to even do what you are doing -- a sure sign of an intentional hijack.
It's not what I would rather like to talk about, but whether I am going tp indulge a hijacker. Sadly, I already have far too many times.
fishermage.blogspot.com
You can show me all the stupid people in the world, but I still know that there is intelligence behind it fueling it. They have been socially groomed for this .. of course the masses will believe anything I mean hell look at the diamond industry.. we all know that it is a farse yet they convinced the entire world through marketing that they are "rare precious stones" thatare the symbol of love .. people did not give diamond rings traditionaly on weddings until they were marketed to do so. and yes just as that was planned, and they have proven that it was planned, ( not just some conspiracy theory) thisis the actual truth about debeers! lol
You see Fisher, I was not sent in this direction by essays, conspiracy theorists, or anything I read on line or watched on Television. The people in my life are not your "average joes" or your " wanna be theorists" The conversations I have had, the people I have had them with are what lead me to this ... There are things I am not at liberty to discuss, and there are things I would like to find out though I don't know why other than just to know , and the quotes I put up earlier were not " proof of any sheppard" they were just that quotes that I applied to this conversation because I was too lazy to relook up anything. Anyone can write a theory, anyone can write an essay and put it online, that doesn;t make it true. Now actual facts, papertrails, events, and actions people took do exist in bits and pieces, but is very difficult to find. You see there are not written documents for alot of what goes on... There is a very good reason the FED would not reveal where the money was going or name those " foreign investors" . Do you think that the people that are intelligent enough to socially groom the world are not intelligent enough to cover their asses? You want me to prove their existance, though you cannot disprove their existance. Mass stupidity does not prove their nonexistance. As sad as Mass stupidity is ... it was planned this way.
These people are not stupid they are smart people who believe in evil things. No one is pulling their strings. They simply read and decide.
I'm not saying there aren't rich, powerful bad guys; what I am saying is we don't need them. People WANT what you think they have to fool us into. Just read these boards. many people here WANT the slavery of socialism. Well, not exactly. They have conned themselves into thinking that socialism is something other than slavery and then they advocate it and then they vore for it.
Now, as to power brokers, they have less power than they think they do, and far less power than you think they do.
The power is here, in the types of folks we see on these forums -- an honest acceptance and believe in slavery. (even though of course they call it something else).
LOl you know you sound like I did when I was a rep for the libertarians back in school
The power of the people ... was a nice dream lol. A very small group of people in this world have all the $$, as long as the world stays with the current system they have control over everyone in it.
as for power brokers .. lol that is a good joke... puppets lol
And you sound like I did twenty years ago lol.
The people have all the power -- money doesn't matter. Property doesn't matter. Ideas matter, and sadly, the people with all the power BELIEVE in the slavery they are walking into.
Just read this board and you'll see how no conspiracy is needed.
fishermage.blogspot.com
But don't you understand that is exactly what I am saying?
Lloyds shareholders apparently weren't so sure about the aquisition, so something got in the way that changed their mind.
The government intervention influenced the board decisions, which in turn, influenced the shareholder vote intention.
That's what we are talking about in this thread.
Brown obviously promised to the board something which convinced the major shareholders that it was worth in the long run.
If Brown wouldn't have proposed some kind of deal, do you think Lloyds would have bought HBOS? No.
What the board had to do is to convince the shareholders that the deal was good in the long term, that's their job, to take decision and convince the shareholders to vote for it.
The board is elected mainly by major shareholders, the board decision are mainly taken to benefit the major shareholders decision, they work together hand in hand.
So if the board is convinced that's a good deal, the majority of the time shareholders support the board decision.
The board take the decisions..................the owners rectify this decision with the vote if they agree.
PS: To the people talking about Socialism, start your own thread, don't mess with this one please.
I do understand that. Yes.
My point is that we know more than just the shadey outlines of the deal, we know the details of it. It's public record.
In the case of Lloyds and for decisions of that scale, the board does not take the decisions. It makes the recommendations and then the shareholders take the decisions. I understand that they work hand in hand, but ultimately decisions of such gravity are taken by the owners and not the managers.
It's their call, if they don't want it, it does not happen. It does not matter what new deals Gordon Brown and the CEO come back to the table with, if the owners don't want it, they don't approve it. It doesn't happen. Lloyds was neither coerced nor forced to make this merger. They chose to. It was what they wanted to do.
Sorry, but there was no conspiracy. This merger has had extremely high levels of transparency.
P.S. if the board keeps making propositions to the shareholders that the shareholders don't agree with, they get replaced with board members who won't. People with that kind of wealth and power do not stand idley by and let their employee's yank their chains.
I think we are just arguing over a word: "decision"
Of course the shareholders have final decision, that is obvious.
Never than less the executives do take decisions which might be approved or not by the shareholders, of course.
Technically "recommendation" is the right word to use, but since we are not discussing on a financial forum, i don't think you need to be too technical about it to deliver the message.
In the end, what the board "recommends" usually get accepted by the shareholders, so changing the word doesn't change the end result.
The board is the one that usually gets its way (as you experienced yourself)