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Please stop blaming the "developers"!
woeye
Member Posts: 119
Because obviously you have no clue. It's easy to blame the "developers" when in fact you have now idea how things do look like behind the curtains. Really, grow up and get your facts right.
First, do you really believe that a developer has the money to produce a MMORPG? Do you? Have you? Have you millions of money to produce such a game? No?
Right, someone needs to invest money in order to make a game. And quite a lot of money. Those days were a developer could produce a game all on its own are over. Technically it is still possible. But in order to produce all those graphics, music, infrastructure, packaging and so on you really need a huge amount of money. Did you know that most games actually cost more money than a blockbuster movie? No?
So, "developers" need an investor. And investors care about one thing: their money. To some extend it's their very right. I mean, would you invest millions and millions without the intention to get it back? Would you burn millions and millions in the fire? No, I guess you wouldn't.
So logically investors are afraid of innovation. Since the risk of loosing all the money is high if you follow new paths. It can work, no doubt. But there's no guarantee. So better stick to the well-known.
The real problem after all is that developing modern games has become way, way too expensive. Developers can't develop games on their own anymore. They depend on money-givers. And money-givers have their own ideas. Money-givers do not care about innovation and creativity. They care about ROI (return of investment).
Why have developing games become so expensive? Because you, dear players, have become so demanding. Would you play a game with no top-notch GFX and audio? I bet not. You ask for tons and tons and tons of content, top-notch graphics and audio, stability, features and features. But nothing is for free. Those things do cost. Cost means money. And money means fear.
Take the iPod touch or iPhone market. Lots of cool games. Why? Because developing games for this platform can be done by small development studios. And suddenly innovation returns.
So please, stop bashing the developers per se. I assure you many would love to make things different. But they have to feed a family, too. And they have to report to their investors.
Thanks.
Comments
Trying to figure out the point in this post.? Developers produce games. The problem with game development these days is the creative process has turned stale. Great games are like great thoughts *unique and adventurous in nature. Regretfully in the past several years all we as gamer's have been given is copies of last Saturdays newspaper when it comes down to it. New cost more but, we've been paying for the same thing in a different colored box for awhile now.
Developers are involved in the process of developing a game. But it's not them alone. This is the important point here. To put it more simple: Developer A has a brilliant idea. It would take about n days to implement it. But since he gets payed by investor's money he has to ask his manager. His manager, however, fears that this brilliant idea might turn out to be a flop. So he rejects the idea. Bang.
What you guys do not get is that fact that it is NOT some developers making a game. Things have become much, much more complicated these days. It's like saying people build their own skyscrapers. Of course they do not. They might be able to build a small house. But you, the players, wouldn't want that. You ask for skyscrapers and not a small tiny hut.
Again, do not blame the "developer". The developer is merely a tool. If you want to blame someone you might go for the investors and publishers.
You are forgetting one thing with your rant. Some developers just want to make money, so they try to make what sells, the same way you say investors would. Not all developers are doing it for the love and not all investors only care about money. So your post is pointless since its basically full of generalizations.
Dev
www.TXcomics.com "Your daily webcomics broadcast"
I will keep bashing developers if they bring out MMO that .. don't work, bug, break promises, add cash shops out of the blue, keep making addictive repetitive games, keep copying WoW's gameplay to the letter, don't provide customer service.
Why? Because it's my money and it's my voice and my opinion and I have every right to say when an MMO sucks.
The end.
Because a developer provides customer service? oO
I guess the real problem is that you actually have no damn clue what a "developer" actually is.
Who should i blame when i go to a steak house and get a peanut butter sandwich? not the resturant? cause after all, i got food...right?
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
Some politicans only care about their money. Some gamers only care about flaming around for the sake of flaming. So what? Many developers are working on their game, on their baby, because they believe in their game. But you sir, have no damn clue, what it is to be a developer. If your publisher comes around and tells you you have to release your broken and unfinished stuff because it-is-about-time and the investors want to see some ROI.
Trust me, many, maybe not all, developers would love to produce kick-ass products. But guys like you only heat the fire between the developers and the gamers.
Because the one who brings you the butter sandwich would feel great about this? Do you REALLY believe this nonesense? Do you REALLY believe all developers hate you gamers? Feel good if they cheat you? Grow up, please.
He is soo right ... it's not the developers fault that the game doesnt run on my up to date rig that can run crysis on almost max settings without one slutter,it's my fault for not building a time machine and travelling in the future to get a better comp.
It's not the devs fault because I cant open the trade window or browse AH/markets etc,it's my fault because I do not know how to play the game....
/sarcasm off ... this is one of the posts that goes into the "worst post and poster evar" list... wonder what kind of IQ such a person has ...
1. We blame investors for not backing our personal "perfect" MMO.
2. We blame hype men for promising things that ultiimately are not delivered.
3. And yes, we blame developers for bugs and unfinished/broken content.
The first two are easy to deal with; we can't affect the first and it's easy to quit an MMO that suffers from the second; but it's #3 that affects each of us on a daily basis when we find our enjoyment of a product diminished by a bug or half-assed feature.
So, it's the developers we blame most. And rightly so.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Have you tried AOC at release? Thats the best example of a valid reason to blame devs.
I'm not a no life that sits in front of his computer all day long, I'm an intern that sits in front of his computer all day long.
I see your point and probably you are right in some cases, but since your post is offensive and inmature, I
will wait for YOU to grow up before discussing anything.
You know, it is in our days quite fashionable to held no one responsible for his doings - or not-doings, but I dont buy this. People make decisions, they act or not act, and no one can escape to face the results of his words and actions, or in cases his inactivity. Its just trendy to blame "the system", to shove to anything but yourself. Its evil parents, bad upbringing, the bad system, its always something or someone else. Well trash that, I say!
We dont want cheese, pseudo-psychological excuses and when things go down the drain its always some mysterious "system" thats to blame. People decide, and while in a free society we have much freedom, we are not free to face the consequences of our decisions, to be responsible. Sure, money givers have influence as well, but all the big decision finally have to be made by developers. They are the only ones to have the know-how of things. I am just tired of the goody-goody "oh dont be so mean and dont blame them because it doesnt help it." Well it does, *I* feel always better when I have a culprit with name rather than a system. *hands out torches*
No seriously. People who create bullshit must be named like it and not honey-coated with some mysterious nameless forces who are to blame. If people do shit, I really like to know who did it. I know it goes against our PC trend of nicety and stuff, but things wont change until we call trash trash and loosers loosers.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
In the spirit of accountability and personal responsibility: Losers, not Loosers.
Loose = Opposite of Tight, i.e. A Loose Bolt.
Lose = Opposite of Win.
Just a little bit of edumacational information for our non-native english speakers!
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Having been in the MMO Developer shoes, I can honestly say there's tugs from 3 different sides during Development:
1) The gamers:
We, as gamers, are a fickled bunch. My game will never work if it's not full loot open PvP, with carebear ready content, destructable buildings but not for everybody, ground can be dug into that can trap people but can't trap people, phenominal AI that would get me a job at the DoD but nothing hard so people can actually compete against it, and FPS style twitch combat that can be played with one hand so it's easier for people. Some things don't mix, and no 2 gamers really seem to want the same thing.
2a) The investors:
They (and, coincidentally, me) as an investor are ALSO a fickled bunch... we're quite interested in the business portion, time tables, and promises met to us. Never once have I met an investor who wanted less then 300%... it's just not heard of for the amount of money they're going to sink in.
When you reach 100% of the money they're willing to sink in, their hand moves to a big red button that says "Release Window"... they care less what's being released, and more about the release itself.
Investors don't just write a 10 million dollar check either, if any game company tells you they do, they're lying... they write you a check for a few months at a time... max. And they check up on you regularly, you're a business they own a HUGE stake in, they're not going to let you go unchecked... and chances are they've done their research, know what games out there sold approximately how much, and use that to garner what they should get.
2b) The Publisher:
Much like Investors, publishers string you along for the alotted amount. Unlike Investors, Publishers don't have a personal vested interest in a company, and will gladly pull the plug before reaching for that great "Release Window" button... the only thing worse then releasing a buggy game, is NOT to release for an Investor... but a Publisher feels it's personal status is on the line.
If your studio is sizely (and expensive) enough, you'll probably get a Publisher appointed Producer (director... management type...)... he's part of the studio, but he's an embedded spy for the Publisher who sends weekly updates to the central office. If the studio goes under, he'll get to keep his job... just with somebody else.
3) Developers:
are paid back, happy, smiling, and continue writing checks. They will start to muffle cries and information from any developer that could get into the way of that goal. And the big fixers, the passionate ones (we're all OCD), will be the first ones to get the axe when crap hits the fan or there needs to be budget cuts in order to extend the life of the studio.
Anybody who thinks that Developers don't fight amongst themselves, or work like a well oiled clock/watch, is deluded. Never have I seen a studio before where there isn't a segregation between the developers who WANT to make a game, and developers where it's just a job. Developers who want to make a game are passionate, but they're equally passionate about their ideas and trying to get them into the game... this ultimately clashes with the Developers who feel it's just a job. At the root of the problem though is management... Management wants to make sure the people in Party 2(A and
Between those 3 things? It's a wonder how games get released at all!
I've worked in a studio so topheavy with artists that you figured the programming was done offsite. IT WAS! Why? Because the investors can see and understand art, they can't see and understand code. And when the budget cuts came along, the first to get cut was design, then programming, then art... so all those bugs, or features, never had a chance.
for "tldr" people:
Are gamers to blame? Yes.
Are gamers soley to blame? Not really, although if gamers keep buying crappy games I guess it can come back around.
Should gamers blame developers particularly? Not neccessarily... most Dev's you might talk to on a Forum or chat are really just pawns in a greater chess board.
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
Whoa!
[Good Intentions] / [Nerd Rage]^[Bad Grammar] *100% = [% Chance failure of a post]
anyone know how to factor [Nonsense] into this equation?
-Kyle
I can safely ignore all of your succeeding posts now.
Uh, who else should we blame for a crappy game?
If the investors give to crappy demands that will ruin the game I rather have that the devs wont make the game then release the same old stuff we seen many times.
A game must be fun, there are nothing else to it. If the devs can't make the game fun they will go down the road of TR, Hellgate and AC2. And it is the developers work to make a fun game or the ones that will suffer are them.
I understand that some devs are forced to release a game too early, if the choice is either close down or release early I can see their point. If they have the choice they will earn a lot more money if they can release a stable product but ok. But if the game is fun enough it will still become big in the end, a perfect release of a boring game will not make the game big.
But I blame a musician for making a crappy reccord, and I blame the dev for making a crappy game, the other only person to blame would be the consumer who buys the crap.
I can safely ignore all of your succeeding posts now.
rofl *hands waterlily some victory*
-Kyle
I can safely ignore all of your succeeding posts now.
I can just imagine you on the floor kicking and screaming "NO MOMMY! It's not my fault! I'm not the one to blame!"
Why are Gamers to blame? They buy games... Investors, Publishers, Developers... we see that, we see people BUYING games.
While we appreciate all the armchair designing that goes on on Forums across the Interwebs, it's worth less then the $1 that muffles it from the same vanilla flavor FPS that comes out...
- CaesarsGhost
Lead Gameplay and Gameworld Designer for a yet unnamed MMO Title.
"When people tell me designing a game is easy, I try to get them to design a board game. Most people don't last 5 minutes, the rest rarely last more then a day. The final few realize it's neither fun nor easy."
The way I see it, Developers are part of the MMO creation team and deserve some amount of criticism when the end product is garbage. Are they wholly to blame? Of course not, but just because you are only one cog in the machine does not mean you are somehow absolved of all wrong doing.
I blame the entire MMO team. I do not blame gamers in any way, shape, or form. Not every restaurant is McDonald's bacause not everyone wants their food. So calling gamers a "fickle bunch" is asinine. We're supposed to all agree on what we want in an MMO? Really? Really????
First off, everyone seems to associate developer with the duty of writing code, I'd think there's more to developing than that. In fact the classic software model still involves more planning time than coding time so let's call them coders instead.
So yes, coders are responsible for the bugs...sometimes there just aren't enough hours in the day nor enough people on staff to handle them all.
Everyone with a hand in how things go is truly a developer, and in any business environment whoever has the most chips in the pile will call the most shots.
If I had a great game idea, could code it, publish it, and run it from my home without any help whatsoever then I'd be the only one to blame when the pets kept disappearing.
Here's a better example: Anyone that tries to work on modern cars has a real struggle no matter how many tools you have. Today's cars are all about design, style, efficiency, but NOT designed for mechanics to freely roam around in. Is it the factory workers' fault that installed that motor or the engineering department, or the accounting dept that said we have to get that motor in there for less than 3 hours labor or we're losing money.
Kind of a pointless thread either way because it doesn't solve who was the REAL bad guy behind the fall of SWG - I still think it's Lucas....speaking of developers.
This thread has a very "LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!" kinda feel to it...
-Kyle
But what if the restaurant owner told the chef to make peanut butter sandwiches and call them 'steak'?
I think that is closer to what the OP is talking about.
Developers are most often independently contracted by producers to create games. Many developers have agents, just like actors, so that when their contract is up with a video game producer, they have to campaign for a new dev job. If they do what their producers tell them to do, then they continue to find work. If they are told to make a linear quest line, level based game and instead developed a sandbox skill based game, they probably wouldn't find much work later.
We all serve someone. Don't think of developers as independent artists with no ceiling or limits. Someone is telling them what to do, how to do it and paying them the money to do so, with a written contract to make sure they don't stray from what they were hired to do.
Whether it is the developer's that are at fault or their investors for forcing them to cut corners is irrelevant, MMO Developments are not charities!
If you start playing a new MMO & discover it has many faults & missing features, about the only reason to keep playing would be if you enjoyed it despite it's flaws & thought that by giving it your continued support it would continue to grow & improve.
If you would not put up with bad products & service in other areas of life out of sympathy for the vendor & their kid's college funds, then why on earth would you do so in gaming?
If you can't "Have your cake & eat it too", then how can "The proof of the pudding be in the eating"?
Take the Hecatomb? TCG What Is Your Doom? quiz.