EQ2 was released before it was ready to compete with wow, that is why it got stomped. There really was a lot wrong with the game from the engine to the hastily thown together gameplay that just wasn't very good. That is why soe spend the better part of the first year revamping every major system in the game. Not to mention the several instance of stomping on their players.
EQ is in the same boat really. Soe really has messed up a bunch since velious. Just look at the raid size changes for example.
Even if everquest was reborn in some modern version I have no doubt soe would somehow gum it up with some of their typical idiocy. That isn't to say there wouldn't be fun game elements, but in no way can I see soe putting out a fantasy game that would seriously compete with anything on the market right now. The eq franchise is about all worn out anyhow.
... Warhammer has free transfers of low-pop servers.
I'm not saying that they've failed, but they obviously did lose some subs. ....
No, warhammer started with way too many servers. Because they had three different start dates they wanted fresh servers for each group. That is why they have low-pop servers not because people left.
EQ was a buggy mess when it launched with bad combat, pvp, art and UI etc etc.
WOW is an improvement on EQ in every single way.
I really couldn't disagree with you more. Unless of course you mean every single way you've listed above ( I hope?), in that case I'd agree with the UI and art. So in some ways, yes very much so, but I don't consider obscene shallowness an improvement, for example. I don't see how anyone familiar with both games could honestly say such a thing, that it was an improvement in every way?
In EQ players could actually be creative in coming up with multiple ways to beat certain encounters, ways developers hadn't counted on in many cases. In WoW every single foot long static instance and boss encounter are intended to be played out the SAME way every single time, follow the script, do the dance, get the epic - no need to react or think ...which wouldn't be as bad if there wasn't such a miniscule amount of content in that game. Of course it's polished, it's tiny.
As for EQ competing with WoW, of course not. As stated WoW appeals to the masses, a quick fix, fast food. EQ is a hobby that requires a bit more dedication. It's a shame EQ (and most other existing MMOs) tried to adopt WoW-like mechanics instead of expanding on what it originally was. I'm sure some of the people that grew tired of running the same cakewalk Nax instance over and over might have liked to try something a bit more demanding now that that sad tutorial of an MMO showed them how to log into an MMO.
EQ being reskinned as you've described would be nice, and I'm sure it would draw in some players that missed out the first time around before it turned into what you see these days. But it wouldn't steal WoWs crowd, or even approach its numbers. Which would be fine by me, options are good and it's obvious people want very different things from MMOs. I'm looking forward to the day when MMOs recover enough from what that mainstream cheesefest did to the genre to start being creative again. It seems like creativity has been put on hold while every developer scrambles at an attempt to create their own WoW - only with less polish and style.
My feeling is no. But thats just because I started playing EverQuest 2 back in 2004 and stayed with it for a few months untill I played Wow. ANd the feeling and atmosphere in Wow was in my opinion so much better in wow. And now, 4 years after I love Wow even more than back then.
Reason why I started playing Eq2 was because I loved SWG and was thinking EQ2 would be a fantasy sandbox simmilar to SWG but I was very dissapointed. Wow is not a sandbox either, but that game is just so well made in all aspects that its just like candy you got to love it.
When EQ2 was released. It did not have things like ingame mail system ( they came quickly after wow was released ). And I all the instanced areas (where are you?.. hmm I am in antonica 4... ) + the fact that if someone was in trouble, you could not just heal them (had to be in group with them to do so). But that was then, Im sure it has been changed a lot by now.
This is the era of casual games. EQ could never be as popular as WoW no matter what they did to improve it. WoW's popularity is due to it's big focus on casual play, not because of it's low specs. Low specs won't keep people playing, but fun content will. It says volumes about a game that went through more than 2 million subs and never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak.
Correction: What is says is that WOW appealed to the 1.55 Million that couldn't hack EQ1. To be honest, that's how it was designed and guess what it payed off...big time.
Let's give credit where it's due Blizz listened to the complaints about EQ1 and created there own fun starter MMO accesable by all. Next you add in Battle.net's install base and bamo you've got a hit.
A Brilliant strategy by Blizz for sure therefore EQ1 wouldn't draw the numbers WOW has.
Don't get it twisted though WOW will never touch the level of raid competency, complexity or knowledge of one's skills EQ1 required . The markets EQ1 would appeal to is worlds apart from WOW's and to be honest EQ1's market is a dying breed.
Originally posted by Vrazule This is the era of casual games. EQ could never be as popular as WoW no matter what they did to improve it. WoW's popularity is due to it's big focus on casual play, not because of it's low specs. Low specs won't keep people playing, but fun content will. It says volumes about a game that went through more than 2 million subs and never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak.
Um low specs means a lot more people would have been prepared to play since they'd know their computer would run it. You make a valid point that people stay because of it's fun content but then there's also a factor people likely won't go to another mmo that has higher system specs.
As to your second point, er might it be questioned how many subs WoW has gone through? At any point while there are 12m subscribing to WoW there's a just as big number who have the game that aren't subscribing. (That's not to deny Everquest wasn't niche however.)
This is the era of casual games. EQ could never be as popular as WoW no matter what they did to improve it. WoW's popularity is due to it's big focus on casual play, not because of it's low specs. Low specs won't keep people playing, but fun content will.
It says volumes about a game that went through more than 2 million subs and never retained more than 450,000 at it's peak.
Um low specs means a lot more people would have been prepared to play since they'd know their computer would run it. You make a valid point that people stay because of it's fun content but then there's also a factor people likely won't go to another mmo that has higher system specs.
As to your second point, er might it be questioned how many subs WoW has gone through? At any point while there are 12m subscribing to WoW there's a just as big number who have the game that aren't subscribing. (That's not to deny Everquest wasn't niche however.)
When EQ hit the stage it became the WOW of its day,EQ set the bar and standard of what was to come,eveyone was scrambleing then like they are doing now to come with something to compete with WOW and what we get out of is some decent games comeing out to soon and not meeting the standards some have faild misserably and the others have enogh subs to survive.
The next UO,EQ,WOW,too come out of the works will need a good 5 year plan and not force it out too soon.
For those of us lucky enough to experience the end-game portion of Everquest, we all know that indescribable feeling. Whether it be the feeling of the first time you fought Venril Sathir, saw the size of Mithaniel Marr, or finished your first epic quest, Everquest's immersion and gameplay set the bar for all MMORPGs to come. Sadly, with the release of World of Warcraft and Everquest 2, Everquest lost a lot of subscribers, and continued to decline from there on. Since the launch of WoW, many other MMOs have failed, such as Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer, etc. Why does World of Warcraft continue to dominate the MMORPG market? My guess is because Blizzard kept World of Warcraft simple. Pretty much any computer today can run WoW with (more than) decent settings. Many people find computers somewhat intimidating. Purchasing a video card with specs good enough to run a specific game is hard enough when you know an average amount of computers. Nevertheless, installing said video card without calling the geek squad may seem an impossible task to many people. Additionally, most people don't want to spend $350 for a video card in addition to $50 just for the game. So, with that in mind, when Everquest II and World of Warcraft were released in November 2004, with Everquest II requiring much better computer specs, it's obvious as to why WoW was able to surpass Everquest II in subscribers. It's almost as if 99% of game dev's dont realize that not everyone who plays video games has a computer that can run Crysis on the highest settings. Then they wonder why all their subscribers go back to WoW. Population of an MMO is also a big issue, because if theres a low population, people are going to leave. However, going back to computer specs, population is going to be deterred if the game requires an amazing computer. My question is, provided Everquest's astonishing lore and gameplay, if SoE was to re-create Everquest with a new engine, which consisted of simple but beautiful graphics, (similar to what World of Warcraft has) Everquest's original gameplay style (With a few improvements, less grind, different quest system) do you think it would have the potential to give World of Warcraft a run for it's money?
I've been harping on to friends over the years that if EQ1 had taken WoWs simpler graphics and got rid of the downtime that I believe it would have been alot more popular than it is today.
The game has more content than you can handle (A point that does put off new players to the game), it also has a huge array of advancement avenues to follow to ensure you have plenty of options.
However you would be hard pressed to get ppl to change from thier current MMO to EQ1, it's just built up this image of being a hardcrore raiding game, even though I personally didn't think of it that way.
I'm currently looking forward to a new Progression server to be announced and to resubscribe to experience the game from the beginning again along with everyone else.
Originally posted by GreenChaos No, warhammer started with way too many servers. Because they had three different start dates they wanted fresh servers for each group. That is why they have low-pop servers not because people left.
Oh come on. Warhammer had around 800k accounts (as stated by mythic) and about 100ish servers that were very busy around release. Now they have around 300k accounts (again, stated by mythic) and have funneled people into about 30 servers.
It is undenyable that the majority of people left the game. There were not enough servers at launch and mythic had to split servers.
@zarra many of those 550k people left eq for wow in the first year after its release. I have many fond memmories of everquest, but soe filled the game with stupid amounts of pointless time sinks as a replacement to real content after they kicked brad to the curb. Where you see people not hacking the game many other see the game as not enjoyable enough to be worth playing.
A re-creation og EQ with a new engine would NOT compete with WoW. WoW is easy mode made to be playable by 12 year old kids. EQ was not. It required much more strategy to do raids in. The gameplay is very unforgiving and the grind insane. Specially with AA's introduced later on. If you took that away and replaced it it wouldn't be EQ anymore, you might as well call it something else.
Alright lets beat the dead horse some more.
Everquest rationed out fun like it was water in the desert. The developers made the classes so weak, the loot so bland, the rewards so sparse and the downtime so overwhelming that only the most fun-deprived people on the planet could enjoy it.
No one who criticizes WoW's difficulty level plays on a PVP server. Try doing quests in a contested zone and then tell me WoW's easy. For that matter lets see how much "better" you are than players in the arena.
Which blind monkeys think WOW"s graphics are more simple than EQ? Talk about trolling. Please hush, you haven't a clue.
EQ was NOT more complex. GO compare Raid encounters in WOW to EQ's. EQ's classes were NOTHING compared to WOW. WOW's classes are about 3 of EQs combined. Was it complex to have a few skills and autoattack, because thats all EQ was?
EQ did NOTHING better than WOW. Not a thing, unless you consider FORCED grouping and waiting in line for content as good;) All you remember is nostalgia and its very very innacurate.
EQ would compete in todays market about as well as Vangaurd, which means not competing at all.
The one mistake made by zealots is this falicy of WOW's difficulty PVE, PVP, Raid or otherwise.
Some of you guys don't get it, WOW's lack of difficulty is exactly the reason it's so popular. I quit WOW pre BC so granted the difficulty has likely risen some what. To that point though I raided AQ40, MC, BWL and Naxx etc.
While fun none were to the level of EQ1's raids nor were they supposed to be.
Also regarding leveling, I died a total of 14 times on the way to lvl 60. Much of that was in the begining getting used to WOW's version of the Paladin. If I were really cautious I could of probably halved that.
The beauty of WOW is that it allows you to jump in and dabble in PVE, PVP and rudementry raiding. But please stop trying to compare apples & oranges.
EQ1 was an endgame/ raid focused MMO. WOW is a introductory MMO for players new to the genre with raiding for those who want it.
..And finally if you haven't played both titles to a high level please stop posting conjecture. I'm seeing lots of posts from those who wern't even around commenting on EQ1 vs WOW.
Originally posted by Daffid011 Originally posted by GreenChaos No, warhammer started with way too many servers. Because they had three different start dates they wanted fresh servers for each group. That is why they have low-pop servers not because people left.
Oh come on. Warhammer had around 800k accounts (as stated by mythic) and about 100ish servers that were very busy around release. Now they have around 300k accounts (again, stated by mythic) and have funneled people into about 30 servers. It is undenyable that the majority of people left the game. There were not enough servers at launch and mythic had to split servers.
Not true, there were quiet a few servers that were pretty empty at launch.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Originally posted by Chieftan No one who criticizes WoW's difficulty level plays on a PVP server. Try doing quests in a contested zone and then tell me WoW's easy. For that matter lets see how much "better" you are than players in the arena.
That's not really a valid argument... you're comparing PvP in WoW to PvE in EQ?
Originally posted by Josher Which blind monkeys think WOW"s graphics are more simple than EQ? Talk about trolling. Please hush, you haven't a clue. EQ was NOT more complex. GO compare Raid encounters in WOW to EQ's. EQ's classes were NOTHING compared to WOW. WOW's classes are about 3 of EQs combined. Was it complex to have a few skills and autoattack, because thats all EQ was? EQ did NOTHING better than WOW. Not a thing, unless you consider FORCED grouping and waiting in line for content as good;) All you remember is nostalgia and its very very innacurate. EQ would compete in todays market about as well as Vangaurd, which means not competing at all.
You said it. Your post is utterly ignorant, fanboish, disrespectful- that people actually enjoyed EQ more than WoW, and well, arrogant. So the irony bolded is very apt.
A "re-created" Everquest would compete with itself (EQ 1 and EQ 2) without acquiring greater marketshare necessary to be competitive;
No one would be happy.
Old School EQ 1 players would not be happy - they want an EQ 1-like game
Old School EQ 2 players would not be happy - they want an EQ 2-like game
New players to this "re-created" EQ would not be happy - they want something different from WoW but would likely get WoW-like game and stick to WoW
Do people want world immersion? YES.
Do people want character customization (this does not mean log-in screen creation; this is developing your own story in world)? YES.
Do people want innovation in MMORPGs? YES.
Should this "new" game be called EQ? NO.
What is WoW's Success?
Taking annoying parts of EQ and improving it;
Ensuring the game remains accessible (no game-breaking system requirements); and
Willingness to change and not just satisfy "raiders."
What are WoW's Vulnerabilities?
Look to world immersion; nice world, but there is a "sameness" and "cartoony" feel to the graphics;
Look to character customization; this is very standard for all classes and no one is truly unique from any other class; they look the same and are pressing the same buttons/spells/abilities really.
Look to innovative features such as the absence of player tools to create housing or to create your own town or village. To buy a villa, or create a UNIQUE ONE on an island. Special classes were just recently introduced, I think, with the Death Knight or something. So they are adding innovative elements to take characters to a new level.
Which blind monkeys think WOW"s graphics are more simple than EQ? Talk about trolling. Please hush, you haven't a clue.
EQ was NOT more complex. GO compare Raid encounters in WOW to EQ's. EQ's classes were NOTHING compared to WOW. WOW's classes are about 3 of EQs combined. Was it complex to have a few skills and autoattack, because thats all EQ was?
EQ did NOTHING better than WOW. Not a thing, unless you consider FORCED grouping and waiting in line for content as good;) All you remember is nostalgia and its very very innacurate.
EQ would compete in todays market about as well as Vangaurd, which means not competing at all.
You said it. Your post is utterly ignorant, fanboish, disrespectful- that people actually enjoyed EQ more than WoW, and well, arrogant. So the irony bolded is very apt.
Fanoboyish?? Its pure fact that WOW's graphics are more complex and detailed than EQ's. Its also a fact that WOW"s classes are more advanced and complex. Its simple numbers. EQ's UI was primitive. The control is NOT as responsive. The downtime was horrendous compared to todays MMOs. Its not opinion. You just have to play the two of them. I never said people weren't allowed to enjoy EQ. I did many years ago. I didn't enjoy it as much as others, but I saw the limited appeal it had. Plenty loved it obviously. But EQ's gameplay wouldn't fly now. Its like saying Doom could compete today. Its pure rubish and everyone knows it. Vangaurd was the spirtual successor to EQ. It shared the old style gameplay among other things and it flopped, partly because of bugs but mostly because of the old school gameplay. I'm not saying EQ wasn't great for its time, but look at what it competed against. A high quality MMO back then is not defined the same way it is now. Its not arrogance. Its reality. Its honesty. The question was, can it compete with WOW. You'd be a fool to think it could. WOW improved basically every feature EQ had, eliminated all that annoyed most people and added a lot EQ never had.
Nastalgia is a funny thing. It masks your memories. Some people see through nostalgia. Others cling to it.
WoW is a simple game for simple people, with simple computers. If the newly done Everquest would offer nothing different, I don't see why current WoW gamers would move there. Besides, I love the existence of Wow. It is such a sh*thole full of leet people, goldminers etc. that it keeps other MMOs pretty playable.
I believe the whole EQ concept has no potential to compete with WoW.
As far as sub numbers go, only a big budget, ultra-casual oriented MMORPG will have a chance to compete with WOW. Thats all there is to it. I think a good, "modern" version of EQ or UO or AC or DAOC could do well, but there's just no way they could pull in the hundreds of thousands of ultra-casual players. Hell, I don't even think Blizzard will come close to WOW numbers with their next MMO.
A re-creation og EQ with a new engine would NOT compete with WoW. WoW is easy mode made to be playable by 12 year old kids. EQ was not. It required much more strategy to do raids in. The gameplay is very unforgiving and the grind insane. Specially with AA's introduced later on. If you took that away and replaced it it wouldn't be EQ anymore, you might as well call it something else.
Alright lets beat the dead horse some more.
Everquest rationed out fun like it was water in the desert. The developers made the classes so weak, the loot so bland, the rewards so sparse and the downtime so overwhelming that only the most fun-deprived people on the planet could enjoy it.
No one who criticizes WoW's difficulty level plays on a PVP server. Try doing quests in a contested zone and then tell me WoW's easy. For that matter lets see how much "better" you are than players in the arena.
I played on Dragonmaw PvP server (EU), had no problem questing what-so-ever in any zones that where contested, heck even made lvl 80 in 4 days played when the latest expac came out and that was considered very slow by the rest of my old guild "Northstar Alliance", most of the ganking was usually confined to the lower lvl areas because thats where the easy meat was to be had.
EQ1 had terrible DT I'l give you that but itemization was never a problem, fun things to do was never a problem such as the LDoN exapac, for me still one of the best for replayability, the Shroud system enabling you to make a class that your grp needed, lvling it and getting new abilites aswell, the Merc system where you could hire yourself a healer or a tank so you could solo alot better, getting some decent money and items for missions/tasks/quests/raids etc.
I played and enjoyed it for 5 years from 1999, heck I'm even considering coing back if they ever decide to sort out the new Progression server and thats a big IF they do.
However EQ1 will never be able to hold a candle to WoW because even if it was to change ppl are too familar now with WoW and TBH it is an enjoyable game to play.
WoW is a simple game for simple people, with simple computers. If the newly done Everquest would offer nothing different, I don't see why current WoW gamers would move there. Besides, I love the existence of Wow. It is such a sh*thole full of leet people, goldminers etc. that it keeps other MMOs pretty playable. I believe the whole EQ concept has no potential to compete with WoW.
So what about all the people who formerly played UO and EQ who jumped to WOW? The entire guild I originally played WOW with ALL came from former MMOs. AO, DAOC, FFXI. All of them. Did we suddenly go from geniouses to simpletons?
There was nothign more complex about EQ compared to WOW. It just took longer to accomplish everything. That doesn't make it more complex.
Originally posted by Josher Fanoboyish?? Its pure fact that WOW's graphics are more complex and detailed than EQ's. Its also a fact that WOW"s classes are more advanced and complex. Its simple numbers. EQ's UI was primitive. The control is NOT as responsive. The downtime was horrendous compared to todays MMOs. Its not opinion. You just have to play the two of them. I never said people weren't allowed to enjoy EQ. I did many years ago. I didn't enjoy it as much as others, but I saw the limited appeal it had. Plenty loved it obviously. But EQ's gameplay wouldn't fly now. Its like saying Doom could compete today. Its pure rubish and everyone knows it. Vangaurd was the spirtual successor to EQ. It shared the old style gameplay among other things and it flopped, partly because of bugs but mostly because of the old school gameplay. I'm not saying EQ wasn't great for its time, but look at what it competed against. A high quality MMO back then is not defined the same way it is now. Its not arrogance. Its reality. Its honesty. The question was, can it compete with WOW. You'd be a fool to think it could. WOW improved basically every feature EQ had, eliminated all that annoyed most people and added a lot EQ never had. Nastalgia is a funny thing. It masks your memories. Some people see through nostalgia. Others cling to it.
The fact that you continue to argue the fact that Everquest was graphically inferior and had "old school gameplay" is a little bothersome because... Well... OBVIOUSLY. You're completely missing the point of my first post. I used Everquest as an example because I feel like the lore of Everquest is strong enough to create a pretty good MMO, provided it had some (somewhat major) gameplay tweaks to bring it up to date. Anyways, please, if you're going to contribute, do something more then recite obvious facts.
I might play a re-make of EQ1 but chances are that it wouldn't hold my attention for more than a month. The gameplay/world just isn't dynamic enough. Now if they added new dynamic features, who knows how long I'd play it for.
Originally posted by Josher Fanoboyish?? Its pure fact that WOW's graphics are more complex and detailed than EQ's. Its also a fact that WOW"s classes are more advanced and complex. Its simple numbers. EQ's UI was primitive. The control is NOT as responsive. The downtime was horrendous compared to todays MMOs. Its not opinion. You just have to play the two of them. I never said people weren't allowed to enjoy EQ. I did many years ago. I didn't enjoy it as much as others, but I saw the limited appeal it had. Plenty loved it obviously. But EQ's gameplay wouldn't fly now. Its like saying Doom could compete today. Its pure rubish and everyone knows it. Vangaurd was the spirtual successor to EQ. It shared the old style gameplay among other things and it flopped, partly because of bugs but mostly because of the old school gameplay. I'm not saying EQ wasn't great for its time, but look at what it competed against. A high quality MMO back then is not defined the same way it is now. Its not arrogance. Its reality. Its honesty. The question was, can it compete with WOW. You'd be a fool to think it could. WOW improved basically every feature EQ had, eliminated all that annoyed most people and added a lot EQ never had. Nastalgia is a funny thing. It masks your memories. Some people see through nostalgia. Others cling to it.
The fact that you continue to argue the fact that Everquest was graphically inferior and had "old school gameplay" is a little bothersome because... Well... OBVIOUSLY. You're completely missing the point of my first post. I used Everquest as an example because I feel like the lore of Everquest is strong enough to create a pretty good MMO, provided it had some (somewhat major) gameplay tweaks to bring it up to date. Anyways, please, if you're going to contribute, do something more then recite obvious facts.
Spot on Squirrel117, think this poster forgot how old EQ1 is and that it is 10 yrs old now, also the fact that ofc other MMO's that have come after it have better UI's or better graphics, it's called moving the genre forwards not backwards or stagnating, new MMO's take ideas already being used and build on them, heck look at the first mobile phones, size and weight of a brick when they first appeared and now look how far they have come.
However that all being said it's all a pipe dream to think a new improved EQ1 could compete with WoW, the player base is too well established, I would even wager that the new MMO in production from Blizzard may see trouble enticing players, it's going to have to be one hell of a good idea to equal WoW's success story though my hat off to them if they can repeat their success, I know I'l be interested to see what they are working on, I don't tie myself down to just the 1 MMO after all as they tend to get old real quick once you max out.
Fanoboyish?? Its pure fact that WOW's graphics are more complex and detailed than EQ's.
I don't disagree with you here at all. It's ludicrous to even compare the two but it should be said both have their own style.
Its also a fact that WOW"s classes are more advanced and complex.
Are they? Yes there were autoattack classes in Everquest but that is a gross overlook of classes that weren't. Enchanter for instance? Bard and all it's songtwisting? Shaman, Cleric, Necro, Druid. More advanced and complex? I'd disagree, I'd say different. Both I have found easy/tough as each other.
EQ's UI was primitive. The control is NOT as responsive. The downtime was horrendous compared to todays MMOs.
No disagreement here but downtime is essentially gone now.
You just have to play the two of them. I never said people weren't allowed to enjoy EQ. I did many years ago. I didn't enjoy it as much as others, but I saw the limited appeal it had. Plenty loved it obviously. But EQ's gameplay wouldn't fly now.
I have played the two and both have different appeals. You say EQ's gameplay wouldn't fly now but every game has a different experience. You go on NWN or Battle.net and see all the custom games. People make different experiences which if they're done well can provide a different enjoyment. People might prefer to play a hardcore mode game or a level/min type game. There is a game popular on NWN I believe that game's objective is to get to level 10- which is made extremely hard especially as being killed by someone else you lose experience. By the way I'm not denying Everquest has flaws, it has some very ugly ones Yes.
A high quality MMO back then is not defined the same way it is now. Its not arrogance. Its reality. Its honesty. The question was, can it compete with WOW. You'd be a fool to think it could. WOW improved basically every feature EQ had, eliminated all that annoyed most people and added a lot EQ never had.
Of course not in a million years could a new Everquest compete with WoW, even a new Elder scrolls mmo wouldn't get anywhere near 11m- it's pure idiocy to even make this topic (Sorry OP). Your second point- WoW didn't improve every feature EQ had, it changed them and changed the game. One is focused around traditional fantasy, roleplay and magic. WoW is focused around Warcraft and abilities and a very game experience. Even the classes- Everquest was based around DnD classes, Warcraft although also are loosely based on DnD are heavily derived from it's Warcraft past.
There is no denying it's features such as it's UI, downtime, map, melee classes, polish, bug-fixing,lock-picking, graphics have been done better in WoW however. Stuff like that it's group-based rather than solo-emphasized is a game experience preference rather than improvement.
Nastalgia is a funny thing. It masks your memories. Some people see through nostalgia. Others cling to it.
Except it's not nostalgia. If I played COD4 and I played Unreal Tournament- while they are both fps' they are designed differently. If I played FFXI and WoW- both are designed differently.
Comments
EQ2 was released before it was ready to compete with wow, that is why it got stomped. There really was a lot wrong with the game from the engine to the hastily thown together gameplay that just wasn't very good. That is why soe spend the better part of the first year revamping every major system in the game. Not to mention the several instance of stomping on their players.
EQ is in the same boat really. Soe really has messed up a bunch since velious. Just look at the raid size changes for example.
Even if everquest was reborn in some modern version I have no doubt soe would somehow gum it up with some of their typical idiocy. That isn't to say there wouldn't be fun game elements, but in no way can I see soe putting out a fantasy game that would seriously compete with anything on the market right now. The eq franchise is about all worn out anyhow.
No, warhammer started with way too many servers. Because they had three different start dates they wanted fresh servers for each group. That is why they have low-pop servers not because people left.
I really couldn't disagree with you more. Unless of course you mean every single way you've listed above ( I hope?), in that case I'd agree with the UI and art. So in some ways, yes very much so, but I don't consider obscene shallowness an improvement, for example. I don't see how anyone familiar with both games could honestly say such a thing, that it was an improvement in every way?
In EQ players could actually be creative in coming up with multiple ways to beat certain encounters, ways developers hadn't counted on in many cases. In WoW every single foot long static instance and boss encounter are intended to be played out the SAME way every single time, follow the script, do the dance, get the epic - no need to react or think ...which wouldn't be as bad if there wasn't such a miniscule amount of content in that game. Of course it's polished, it's tiny.
As for EQ competing with WoW, of course not. As stated WoW appeals to the masses, a quick fix, fast food. EQ is a hobby that requires a bit more dedication. It's a shame EQ (and most other existing MMOs) tried to adopt WoW-like mechanics instead of expanding on what it originally was. I'm sure some of the people that grew tired of running the same cakewalk Nax instance over and over might have liked to try something a bit more demanding now that that sad tutorial of an MMO showed them how to log into an MMO.
EQ being reskinned as you've described would be nice, and I'm sure it would draw in some players that missed out the first time around before it turned into what you see these days. But it wouldn't steal WoWs crowd, or even approach its numbers. Which would be fine by me, options are good and it's obvious people want very different things from MMOs. I'm looking forward to the day when MMOs recover enough from what that mainstream cheesefest did to the genre to start being creative again. It seems like creativity has been put on hold while every developer scrambles at an attempt to create their own WoW - only with less polish and style.
My feeling is no. But thats just because I started playing EverQuest 2 back in 2004 and stayed with it for a few months untill I played Wow. ANd the feeling and atmosphere in Wow was in my opinion so much better in wow. And now, 4 years after I love Wow even more than back then.
Reason why I started playing Eq2 was because I loved SWG and was thinking EQ2 would be a fantasy sandbox simmilar to SWG but I was very dissapointed. Wow is not a sandbox either, but that game is just so well made in all aspects that its just like candy
you got to love it.
When EQ2 was released. It did not have things like ingame mail system ( they came quickly after wow was released ). And I all the instanced areas (where are you?.. hmm I am in antonica 4... ) + the fact that if someone was in trouble, you could not just heal them (had to be in group with them to do so). But that was then, Im sure it has been changed a lot by now.
Correction: What is says is that WOW appealed to the 1.55 Million that couldn't hack EQ1. To be honest, that's how it was designed and guess what it payed off...big time.
Let's give credit where it's due Blizz listened to the complaints about EQ1 and created there own fun starter MMO accesable by all. Next you add in Battle.net's install base and bamo you've got a hit.
A Brilliant strategy by Blizz for sure therefore EQ1 wouldn't draw the numbers WOW has.
Don't get it twisted though WOW will never touch the level of raid competency, complexity or knowledge of one's skills EQ1 required . The markets EQ1 would appeal to is worlds apart from WOW's and to be honest EQ1's market is a dying breed.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Um low specs means a lot more people would have been prepared to play since they'd know their computer would run it. You make a valid point that people stay because of it's fun content but then there's also a factor people likely won't go to another mmo that has higher system specs.
As to your second point, er might it be questioned how many subs WoW has gone through? At any point while there are 12m subscribing to WoW there's a just as big number who have the game that aren't subscribing. (That's not to deny Everquest wasn't niche however.)
Um low specs means a lot more people would have been prepared to play since they'd know their computer would run it. You make a valid point that people stay because of it's fun content but then there's also a factor people likely won't go to another mmo that has higher system specs.
As to your second point, er might it be questioned how many subs WoW has gone through? At any point while there are 12m subscribing to WoW there's a just as big number who have the game that aren't subscribing. (That's not to deny Everquest wasn't niche however.)
When EQ hit the stage it became the WOW of its day,EQ set the bar and standard of what was to come,eveyone was scrambleing then like they are doing now to come with something to compete with WOW and what we get out of is some decent games comeing out to soon and not meeting the standards some have faild misserably and the others have enogh subs to survive.
The next UO,EQ,WOW,too come out of the works will need a good 5 year plan and not force it out too soon.
I've been harping on to friends over the years that if EQ1 had taken WoWs simpler graphics and got rid of the downtime that I believe it would have been alot more popular than it is today.
The game has more content than you can handle (A point that does put off new players to the game), it also has a huge array of advancement avenues to follow to ensure you have plenty of options.
However you would be hard pressed to get ppl to change from thier current MMO to EQ1, it's just built up this image of being a hardcrore raiding game, even though I personally didn't think of it that way.
I'm currently looking forward to a new Progression server to be announced and to resubscribe to experience the game from the beginning again along with everyone else.
Oh come on. Warhammer had around 800k accounts (as stated by mythic) and about 100ish servers that were very busy around release. Now they have around 300k accounts (again, stated by mythic) and have funneled people into about 30 servers.
It is undenyable that the majority of people left the game. There were not enough servers at launch and mythic had to split servers.
@zarra many of those 550k people left eq for wow in the first year after its release. I have many fond memmories of everquest, but soe filled the game with stupid amounts of pointless time sinks as a replacement to real content after they kicked brad to the curb. Where you see people not hacking the game many other see the game as not enjoyable enough to be worth playing.
Alright lets beat the dead horse some more.
Everquest rationed out fun like it was water in the desert. The developers made the classes so weak, the loot so bland, the rewards so sparse and the downtime so overwhelming that only the most fun-deprived people on the planet could enjoy it.
No one who criticizes WoW's difficulty level plays on a PVP server. Try doing quests in a contested zone and then tell me WoW's easy. For that matter lets see how much "better" you are than players in the arena.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Which blind monkeys think WOW"s graphics are more simple than EQ? Talk about trolling. Please hush, you haven't a clue.
EQ was NOT more complex. GO compare Raid encounters in WOW to EQ's. EQ's classes were NOTHING compared to WOW. WOW's classes are about 3 of EQs combined. Was it complex to have a few skills and autoattack, because thats all EQ was?
EQ did NOTHING better than WOW. Not a thing, unless you consider FORCED grouping and waiting in line for content as good;) All you remember is nostalgia and its very very innacurate.
EQ would compete in todays market about as well as Vangaurd, which means not competing at all.
The one mistake made by zealots is this falicy of WOW's difficulty PVE, PVP, Raid or otherwise.
Some of you guys don't get it, WOW's lack of difficulty is exactly the reason it's so popular. I quit WOW pre BC so granted the difficulty has likely risen some what. To that point though I raided AQ40, MC, BWL and Naxx etc.
While fun none were to the level of EQ1's raids nor were they supposed to be.
Also regarding leveling, I died a total of 14 times on the way to lvl 60. Much of that was in the begining getting used to WOW's version of the Paladin. If I were really cautious I could of probably halved that.
The beauty of WOW is that it allows you to jump in and dabble in PVE, PVP and rudementry raiding. But please stop trying to compare apples & oranges.
EQ1 was an endgame/ raid focused MMO. WOW is a introductory MMO for players new to the genre with raiding for those who want it.
..And finally if you haven't played both titles to a high level please stop posting conjecture. I'm seeing lots of posts from those who wern't even around commenting on EQ1 vs WOW.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Oh come on. Warhammer had around 800k accounts (as stated by mythic) and about 100ish servers that were very busy around release. Now they have around 300k accounts (again, stated by mythic) and have funneled people into about 30 servers.
It is undenyable that the majority of people left the game. There were not enough servers at launch and mythic had to split servers.
Not true, there were quiet a few servers that were pretty empty at launch.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
That's not really a valid argument... you're comparing PvP in WoW to PvE in EQ?
You said it. Your post is utterly ignorant, fanboish, disrespectful- that people actually enjoyed EQ more than WoW, and well, arrogant. So the irony bolded is very apt.
No.
It has been adddressed several times:
What is WoW's Success?
What are WoW's Vulnerabilities?
You said it. Your post is utterly ignorant, fanboish, disrespectful- that people actually enjoyed EQ more than WoW, and well, arrogant. So the irony bolded is very apt.
Fanoboyish?? Its pure fact that WOW's graphics are more complex and detailed than EQ's. Its also a fact that WOW"s classes are more advanced and complex. Its simple numbers. EQ's UI was primitive. The control is NOT as responsive. The downtime was horrendous compared to todays MMOs. Its not opinion. You just have to play the two of them. I never said people weren't allowed to enjoy EQ. I did many years ago. I didn't enjoy it as much as others, but I saw the limited appeal it had. Plenty loved it obviously. But EQ's gameplay wouldn't fly now. Its like saying Doom could compete today. Its pure rubish and everyone knows it. Vangaurd was the spirtual successor to EQ. It shared the old style gameplay among other things and it flopped, partly because of bugs but mostly because of the old school gameplay. I'm not saying EQ wasn't great for its time, but look at what it competed against. A high quality MMO back then is not defined the same way it is now. Its not arrogance. Its reality. Its honesty. The question was, can it compete with WOW. You'd be a fool to think it could. WOW improved basically every feature EQ had, eliminated all that annoyed most people and added a lot EQ never had.
Nastalgia is a funny thing. It masks your memories. Some people see through nostalgia. Others cling to it.
WoW is a simple game for simple people, with simple computers. If the newly done Everquest would offer nothing different, I don't see why current WoW gamers would move there. Besides, I love the existence of Wow. It is such a sh*thole full of leet people, goldminers etc. that it keeps other MMOs pretty playable.
I believe the whole EQ concept has no potential to compete with WoW.
As far as sub numbers go, only a big budget, ultra-casual oriented MMORPG will have a chance to compete with WOW. Thats all there is to it. I think a good, "modern" version of EQ or UO or AC or DAOC could do well, but there's just no way they could pull in the hundreds of thousands of ultra-casual players. Hell, I don't even think Blizzard will come close to WOW numbers with their next MMO.
Alright lets beat the dead horse some more.
Everquest rationed out fun like it was water in the desert. The developers made the classes so weak, the loot so bland, the rewards so sparse and the downtime so overwhelming that only the most fun-deprived people on the planet could enjoy it.
No one who criticizes WoW's difficulty level plays on a PVP server. Try doing quests in a contested zone and then tell me WoW's easy. For that matter lets see how much "better" you are than players in the arena.
I played on Dragonmaw PvP server (EU), had no problem questing what-so-ever in any zones that where contested, heck even made lvl 80 in 4 days played when the latest expac came out and that was considered very slow by the rest of my old guild "Northstar Alliance", most of the ganking was usually confined to the lower lvl areas because thats where the easy meat was to be had.
EQ1 had terrible DT I'l give you that but itemization was never a problem, fun things to do was never a problem such as the LDoN exapac, for me still one of the best for replayability, the Shroud system enabling you to make a class that your grp needed, lvling it and getting new abilites aswell, the Merc system where you could hire yourself a healer or a tank so you could solo alot better, getting some decent money and items for missions/tasks/quests/raids etc.
I played and enjoyed it for 5 years from 1999, heck I'm even considering coing back if they ever decide to sort out the new Progression server and thats a big IF they do.
However EQ1 will never be able to hold a candle to WoW because even if it was to change ppl are too familar now with WoW and TBH it is an enjoyable game to play.
So what about all the people who formerly played UO and EQ who jumped to WOW? The entire guild I originally played WOW with ALL came from former MMOs. AO, DAOC, FFXI. All of them. Did we suddenly go from geniouses to simpletons?
There was nothign more complex about EQ compared to WOW. It just took longer to accomplish everything. That doesn't make it more complex.
The fact that you continue to argue the fact that Everquest was graphically inferior and had "old school gameplay" is a little bothersome because... Well... OBVIOUSLY. You're completely missing the point of my first post. I used Everquest as an example because I feel like the lore of Everquest is strong enough to create a pretty good MMO, provided it had some (somewhat major) gameplay tweaks to bring it up to date. Anyways, please, if you're going to contribute, do something more then recite obvious facts.
I might play a re-make of EQ1 but chances are that it wouldn't hold my attention for more than a month. The gameplay/world just isn't dynamic enough. Now if they added new dynamic features, who knows how long I'd play it for.
The fact that you continue to argue the fact that Everquest was graphically inferior and had "old school gameplay" is a little bothersome because... Well... OBVIOUSLY. You're completely missing the point of my first post. I used Everquest as an example because I feel like the lore of Everquest is strong enough to create a pretty good MMO, provided it had some (somewhat major) gameplay tweaks to bring it up to date. Anyways, please, if you're going to contribute, do something more then recite obvious facts.
Spot on Squirrel117, think this poster forgot how old EQ1 is and that it is 10 yrs old now, also the fact that ofc other MMO's that have come after it have better UI's or better graphics, it's called moving the genre forwards not backwards or stagnating, new MMO's take ideas already being used and build on them, heck look at the first mobile phones, size and weight of a brick when they first appeared and now look how far they have come.
However that all being said it's all a pipe dream to think a new improved EQ1 could compete with WoW, the player base is too well established, I would even wager that the new MMO in production from Blizzard may see trouble enticing players, it's going to have to be one hell of a good idea to equal WoW's success story though my hat off to them if they can repeat their success, I know I'l be interested to see what they are working on, I don't tie myself down to just the 1 MMO after all as they tend to get old real quick once you max out.
I have played the two and both have different appeals. You say EQ's gameplay wouldn't fly now but every game has a different experience. You go on NWN or Battle.net and see all the custom games. People make different experiences which if they're done well can provide a different enjoyment. People might prefer to play a hardcore mode game or a level/min type game. There is a game popular on NWN I believe that game's objective is to get to level 10- which is made extremely hard especially as being killed by someone else you lose experience. By the way I'm not denying Everquest has flaws, it has some very ugly ones Yes.
Of course not in a million years could a new Everquest compete with WoW, even a new Elder scrolls mmo wouldn't get anywhere near 11m- it's pure idiocy to even make this topic (Sorry OP). Your second point- WoW didn't improve every feature EQ had, it changed them and changed the game. One is focused around traditional fantasy, roleplay and magic. WoW is focused around Warcraft and abilities and a very game experience. Even the classes- Everquest was based around DnD classes, Warcraft although also are loosely based on DnD are heavily derived from it's Warcraft past.
There is no denying it's features such as it's UI, downtime, map, melee classes, polish, bug-fixing,lock-picking, graphics have been done better in WoW however. Stuff like that it's group-based rather than solo-emphasized is a game experience preference rather than improvement.
Except it's not nostalgia. If I played COD4 and I played Unreal Tournament- while they are both fps' they are designed differently. If I played FFXI and WoW- both are designed differently.