Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
OP is a moron.
1. DF world offers player freedom. First, in exploration. You are not bound by your level. This means you are not stuck looking at a small part of a world that only expands as your level goes up. The developers did not put random mobs all over the place to impede exploration. You can go anywhere the second you create a character and enter the world.
2. You don't ever have to hold a weapon. There is (already) a very strong economy and gathering/crafting system. I probably gather more than I fight.
3. While player housing is not implemented (or player shops) yet, the world is so massively huge that I think once they are implemented you just might be able to build in designated areas. I personally don't want to see player made cities ala SWG or UO because all it does is clutter the landscape. However, if you knew the actual size of the world, I can see AV doing something akin to Vanguard and that is having specialized areas for housing. HOUSING IS COMING! But, for now, there are dozens and dozens of cities and hamlets that clans can take over and build additional structures.
4. Because of player controlled cities and hamlets, players in DF have a direct impact on the world. Adding housing will only expand the role of the player in the world.
Seriously, OP is faulting the game for not having the time to mature like games like EVE or SWG. So many troll posts are about what DF is not upon release without people actually giving DF a chance to grow and mature. EVE and SWG are not the same games today that they were when they were released. How stupid are you to hate on a game because it doesn't have everything you want it to have only two weeks after release. Come on....
Anyway, imho, the only real sandboxes are not in MMOs, but in virtual worlds like Second Life or Entropia.
1. I can go anywhere i want in VG at any level,nothing will stop me from going to the most deadly of place from level one.Now i understand that DF has no levels but if VG does the same thing as DF by allowing me to go anywhere from level one,then it's one in the samr thing.
Will i have a chance of dying if i go to all these places..yes, but could i actually survive..yes again.
2. In VG i could go all the way to top level just by crafting or diplomacy,having never picked up any weapon at all.I can actually play the game and not kill a single mob.
3.You answered this one by mentioning VG and as it stands now,VG wins on this. VG world is vast,as you know and it's actually bigger than DF.
4. Yes DF buildings can be knocked down so VG cant win this one.
5.FFA Kill anyone at any time including guild mates and group mates,plus looting all the cash/gold they have on them as well. You can't loot there items but you can still loot the player you have just killed.
The only things that DF has that VG does not is Skill based system,meaning no levels..Distructable buildings,meaning guild buildings.
ALL in all DF is not really that much different than me playing on a VG ffa server. In many ways VG it has more to offer .
Sandbox it is not.
1. You can't go where you please in VG. It is a level based system in character development and questing. Like any MMO, I am sure you can dodge around and run from high end monsters, but, the game is designed like all other level based MMOs. The farther one goes out, the harder the mobs get. Maybe you get on your mount and ride around as VG has many open and unpopulated areas, but the game is designed around LEVEL BASED EXPLORATION.
2. Yes, you can. But, my point was to the OP who was trying to say that a feature of sandboxes is that a player does not ever have to pick up a weapon. This is true in DF and VG.
3. I played VG off and on for two years. I played during release all the way up to level 50. Having explored both worlds, I must disagree with you. DF Is bigger.
4. Right now DF has premade cities and hamlets. Buildings and walls and cannons, etc can be added to them. But, like in VG (in regards to player housing), these spots are designated and players cannot build where they please. The land is certainly big enough to implement player housing later on. I suppose SWG and UO wins here but from what I remember of those games (especially SWG), the landscape becomes a ghost town of player made cities.
5. FFA PvP/Full Loot is not an indicator of whether or not a game is or is not sandbox. But, after my experiences in DF, I just won't play another MMO without this feature again.
I love Vanguard too. In fact, out of all the MMOs I've played since learning about them during the UO/EQ days, I'd say Vanguard is my most favorite level based MMO. But, I don't think any MMO is a sandbox. All MMOs base themselves on their own core rule sets. An MMO can only be as sandboxy as the rule set allows.
To me a sandbox is like Second Life. While it does not have fluid game mechanics like MMOs, I can literally login and do what I want, create what I want, be who I want. They provide the 3D modeling tools and scripting language to create basically anything. That, to me, is a sandbox.
I am waiting for the day when a developer releases a massive land with similar creation tools and basically tells it's players to get out in the world and figure out how to make things work. People plop down farms, collection of farms turn into villages, villages turn into cities - all with PvP/full loot and a great skill based system that allows its players to go out and create every single item to be used in game and thus fostering a player driven economy. The only MMO that gets this close is EVE and Entropia (though I'd say Entropia is a game based virtual world).
I never said in my post that DF is a sandbox. But, I have a problem with the OP criticizing the game like he did when the game has only recently been released. Too many people are trolling DF because it does not have the same stability or maturation as other games have (and were given the time to develop). It's like they do not understand the concept of hindsight and thus judge all games as if they should be a six year old EVE or whatever.
Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
I agree with you mostly - EVE isn't a sandbox for its lack of social skills.
But I think you are being overly critical on an indie game. They are trying to do something few games attempt on a small budget.
One thing, that post you made is basicly YOUR OPINION/THEROY ECT. What you think it is doesnt mean what the industry thinks it is.
Like others have said there are many definitions of sandbox and yours is not one of them.
Stop trying to force your opinion on others. you are not a Dev, you do not make games ect. wtf do you know is what you think it is.
What strikes you wrong is how you portayed eve. You know NOTHing of eve and how players interact ect. Being a former player of the bruce allience i can tell you how social this game is. There are tons of aspects you never tasted in eve and it shows on how ignorant you are with the game.
Like another person said, your focused most on your experience on how swg once was.
Guess what. EVE keeps expanding, adding more things to do ect. it keeps growing as a sandbox. SWG has not, it eliminated lots of its features and wont go back. accept it.
As for darkfall. It is a basic sandbox game and it can grow to be even better than what it is.
But please for the love of Gawd stop trying to force your opinion on others.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Does a game with man sandboxy features automatically provide a fun gaming experience?
and the answer to this question is. No. A game that relies heavily on player created content and gives players the freedom to actually do whatever is _virtually_ possible can still be a crappy game with boring mechanics and a very poor multiplayer aspect.
Sandbox-fans nowadays are automatically referring to "FFA-PvP-siege-housing" when talking about sandbox, and automatically link this to fun gameplay. That is because of UO and pre-CU-SWG. But these games had a LOT more to them but the bare mechanic that made them unique and fun and a worthwile experience. Things like design, community, balancing (!!!) were huge factors in these games.
You can't just cast everything a 'regular' MMO relies so heavily on into the abyss and claim FFAPvPhousing alone is the key-formula for success. Look at Dark and Light, Shadowbane and now Darkfall, and look at EvE or the early SWG. The mechanics actually play a small part in a successful ame, but we - especially here on MMORPG.com - tend to glorify this mechanic beyond reason...
M
you are mistaking "fun" with "success", The wii, for example, is FAR more successful than the Xbox and the ps3, even though the Wii has TONS of games that are commonly called "shovelware" getting incredibly low ratings, though they still sell. Why? Because they are ACCESSIBLE. They aren't bought because they are "good" or even "fun" they are bought b/c they appeal to a lot of different people, a lot of them which don't even like video games that much (but that's offtopic). The same thing happened with WoW, they dumbed down features pre-existing in other mmo's and thus it appealed to a very large amount of people. This would make the game "succesful" but by no means good.
And thus, after the wild success of WoW, all other recent mmo's are trying to copy their themepark EQ2ish gameplay style in hopes of gaining a piece of the WoW playerbase' pie. And thus the frustration, with people who don't like themepark games, b/c there are nearly no games for them to go to b/c mmo's these days are obsessed with trying to break into the mainstream mmo market, which, as of now, WoW has a monopoly on.
And, again, to OP, you can't claim that DF isn't a sandbox at this case, give it 1 or 2 months. Obviously now with no polotics, and with crafting being really hard to do (and thus no player economy), the game is barely sandbox at all, and you will be fully justified in saying that "df is a joke of a sandbox game" in 2 months (i found myself saying that the first day i got into beta, b/c i forgot that nearly every other sandbox game doesn't just come out of the box as a sandbox)
Dude, do you see what's happening here? - Even though you obviously _read_ what I posted, you are so full of the idea that 'class based' equals 'success' and 'shallowness', you don't realize that this is EXACTLY what I wanted to say.
Fun games do _not_ spring from game mechanics. Fun games spring from a much more complex thing called "working game". EvE is the hell of a fun game, as much as Lord of the Ringe Online. You can't divide the world into "unfun class based linear cookie cutter Everquest clonesque games" and "awesome FFA PvP housing sieging games that rock if only everyone knew they existed"
That's just not how it works. Dark and Light had FFA PvP, castle building, housing and economy; and it was complete crap. And on the other side of the bench, Matrix Online, or Tabula Rasa were class centered mostly non PvP linear MMOGs and also failed miserably...
It's not the friggin mechanic that decides, it's the whole game. DFO shouldn't be granted 'savious super fun' status just because you can kill your neighbor and take his stuff. This is childish. the game could still suck balls (and I don't want to claim it does)
for sandbox you need viable options, not just ffa pvp. ...swg pre-cu was the closest to sandbox that ive played (player housing, awesome crafting system and economy, plus fun pvp)
they only call DF sandbox cos it ins't finished yet
Well first off many of you are right and wrong at the same time. Darkfall does have many qualities of a sandbox game, yet still lacks some that many consider necessay.
This game is still in beta form, even though some of you are paying for it. Hard to critique a game when they are still flushing out all it's features.
But I do see a lot of "if's" in this thread. And I think that is where the problem lies. Can Aventurine, being a very small shop, add those features that will make it more of a sandbox. I highly suspect the game was, as usual, released before it's time because of money issues. So if you want to pay to beta test it have fun, but expect a lot of problems. The big issue I have is that many of the flaws can potentially destroy the economy before they get them fixed. Here is hoping that does not happen.
That is the big question that can only be answered by what Aventurine provides to the game in the future.
Right now it has a lot of flaws, especially the poorly written client. Only time will tell if they can correct them and provide a great game out of it.
I will say agian a sandbox is just a game that does not have levels,you are free to play how you want.
You guys are calling games that try to "full immersive virtual worlds" as sole defination of a sandbox.GTA is sandbox game,you are not on a force path.You play GTA without ever doing a mission.Thats all a sandbox is a game does not force you go from point a to b.
Sandbox games are built that way from the ground UP not reverse engineered and just happen to become sandbox. UO, EVE, original SWG, and more underground PURE sandbox games like A tale in the Desert, WURM and probably Ryzom. Darkfall from all accounts so far is simply Shadowbane 2.0. Sandbox games leave in all the useless monotnous things we do in everyday existance, gardening, farming, horse breeding, city building, home ownership, shops, all that good stuff and much more. I'm sure many of you will say well they just couldn't have implemented that but you can go do it right now on a prehistoric Java game called WURM so that argument is BS. As for cluttering up the environment with player housing, that sounds like something a WoW fanboi would say, what did you play the game for, to stand in the grass and enjoy the frakkin sunset?
A real sandbox would allow more solo play, you could in effect run your own mini economy and be self sufficient, it sounds like your either in a large guild or your not. Basically large Goon Squad esque guilds hammering each other all day.
Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
Those are features that may or may not be present in a sandbox. Sandbox just means nonlinear. Darkfall isn't a shooter either. No Guns.........
-.- Ok then. First person Sworder... Better?
I think you know what he meant. lol.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Yes, sandbox games are pretty awesome, however, there's only 1 true sandbox game, and it isn't good. http://wurmonline.com/' It hasn't got animations, worst voice acting in history and their developers are only out for your money, however, if you look to the concept and see how much potential the game has, it's almost wort it. I tought DF could do better, and darkfall is much better, not a bad game at all, but it isn't a true sandbox as i tought it would be
It hasn't got animations, worst voice acting in history and their developers are only out for your money, however, if you look to the concept and see how much potential the game has, it's almost wort it.
I tought DF could do better, and darkfall is much better, not a bad game at all, but it isn't a true sandbox as i tought it would be
blah blah nonsence.
Darkfall indeed is a sandbox game. Please people stop trying to figure out how to define sandbox. GTA is a sandbox game. It doesnt let you build houses or cut trees down ect. But it allows you to approach its content as you see it fit. Thats what defines the sanbox.
Morrowind is another good example of a sandbox. My wife never played video games before yet she fell in love with morrowind. All she did was kill everything in sight. She would get messages that she killed someone important and that the story cannot be completed, however she did find the 2 items needed to kill the last boss and beat the game.
The op has no idea what hes talking about. Much less that other poster who linked his"theorys" and tries to force them on everyone.
Wow is NOT a sandbox. In order to do some content you have to beat a boss of another area to unlock another boss. ex defeating the second last boss in naxx gives you an item to fight the dragon in nexus. Your forced to have some classes in your group to finish content. Ex iun nax heroic you need 2 or more priests to down some of the bosses via mind control. Some bosses in instances must be killed before you can go to the final boss of said instance ect.
Darkfall by all means is a sandbox game. Just because it doesnt have x or y feature of another game doesnt mean it is not a sandbox game. So what if you cannot be a dancer ect and other things that the old swg had, that doesnt make all the other sand box games less of a sandbox. You can approach anything in darkfall on how you see it fix and that is the only thing that counts to make it as a sandbox.
So [please do yourself a favor, stop trying to invent a damn meaning of sandbox.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Just because a game has a skill tree does not make it sandbox. If WoW had no level and you only built on the talent tree, would it be sandbox? No! Sandbox is about player freedom. It is about being able to not hold a weapon, ever, and still have lots to do in the world. It is about being able to build stuff (almost) anywhere, actively changing the world you and other players are experiencing. Is is about having a real self-sustaining economy. SWG was a sandbox. EVE is a sanbox. DF is just a poorly implemented shooter.
if you don't agree with the op; then PLEASE do elaborate upon the crafting, the taming, the exploration and such items as these.
religious experiences mean nada in this discourse.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It hasn't got animations, worst voice acting in history and their developers are only out for your money, however, if you look to the concept and see how much potential the game has, it's almost wort it.
I tought DF could do better, and darkfall is much better, not a bad game at all, but it isn't a true sandbox as i tought it would be
blah blah nonsence.
Darkfall indeed is a sandbox game. Please people stop trying to figure out how to define sandbox. GTA is a sandbox game. It doesnt let you build houses or cut trees down ect. But it allows you to approach its content as you see it fit. Thats what defines the sanbox.
Morrowind is another good example of a sandbox. My wife never played video games before yet she fell in love with morrowind. All she did was kill everything in sight. She would get messages that she killed someone important and that the story cannot be completed, however she did find the 2 items needed to kill the last boss and beat the game.
The op has no idea what hes talking about. Much less that other poster who linked his"theorys" and tries to force them on everyone.
Wow is NOT a sandbox. In order to do some content you have to beat a boss of another area to unlock another boss. ex defeating the second last boss in naxx gives you an item to fight the dragon in nexus. Your forced to have some classes in your group to finish content. Ex iun nax heroic you need 2 or more priests to down some of the bosses via mind control. Some bosses in instances must be killed before you can go to the final boss of said instance ect.
Darkfall by all means is a sandbox game. Just because it doesnt have x or y feature of another game doesnt mean it is not a sandbox game. So what if you cannot be a dancer ect and other things that the old swg had, that doesnt make all the other sand box games less of a sandbox. You can approach anything in darkfall on how you see it fix and that is the only thing that counts to make it as a sandbox.
So [please do yourself a favor, stop trying to invent a damn meaning of sandbox.
hi, you sound like you might know stuff about darkfall. do you know if there are different types of ores to be mined and if those ores give different resistances/abilities to armors/weapons made from them? or is it just a generic ore and nothing different happens cuz well it's just one generic ore?
same for harvesting hides and woods.
thanks.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It hasn't got animations, worst voice acting in history and their developers are only out for your money, however, if you look to the concept and see how much potential the game has, it's almost wort it.
I tought DF could do better, and darkfall is much better, not a bad game at all, but it isn't a true sandbox as i tought it would be
blah blah nonsence.
Darkfall indeed is a sandbox game. Please people stop trying to figure out how to define sandbox. GTA is a sandbox game. It doesnt let you build houses or cut trees down ect. But it allows you to approach its content as you see it fit. Thats what defines the sanbox.
Morrowind is another good example of a sandbox. My wife never played video games before yet she fell in love with morrowind. All she did was kill everything in sight. She would get messages that she killed someone important and that the story cannot be completed, however she did find the 2 items needed to kill the last boss and beat the game.
The op has no idea what hes talking about. Much less that other poster who linked his"theorys" and tries to force them on everyone.
Wow is NOT a sandbox. In order to do some content you have to beat a boss of another area to unlock another boss. ex defeating the second last boss in naxx gives you an item to fight the dragon in nexus. Your forced to have some classes in your group to finish content. Ex iun nax heroic you need 2 or more priests to down some of the bosses via mind control. Some bosses in instances must be killed before you can go to the final boss of said instance ect.
Darkfall by all means is a sandbox game. Just because it doesnt have x or y feature of another game doesnt mean it is not a sandbox game. So what if you cannot be a dancer ect and other things that the old swg had, that doesnt make all the other sand box games less of a sandbox. You can approach anything in darkfall on how you see it fix and that is the only thing that counts to make it as a sandbox.
So [please do yourself a favor, stop trying to invent a damn meaning of sandbox.
Do yourself a favor and follow your own idea. Stop making a concept of sandbox. Or worst, stop trying to say "your concept" is the right one.
It hasn't got animations, worst voice acting in history and their developers are only out for your money, however, if you look to the concept and see how much potential the game has, it's almost wort it.
I tought DF could do better, and darkfall is much better, not a bad game at all, but it isn't a true sandbox as i tought it would be
blah blah nonsence.
Darkfall indeed is a sandbox game. Please people stop trying to figure out how to define sandbox. GTA is a sandbox game. It doesnt let you build houses or cut trees down ect. But it allows you to approach its content as you see it fit. Thats what defines the sanbox.
Morrowind is another good example of a sandbox. My wife never played video games before yet she fell in love with morrowind. All she did was kill everything in sight. She would get messages that she killed someone important and that the story cannot be completed, however she did find the 2 items needed to kill the last boss and beat the game.
The op has no idea what hes talking about. Much less that other poster who linked his"theorys" and tries to force them on everyone.
Wow is NOT a sandbox. In order to do some content you have to beat a boss of another area to unlock another boss. ex defeating the second last boss in naxx gives you an item to fight the dragon in nexus. Your forced to have some classes in your group to finish content. Ex iun nax heroic you need 2 or more priests to down some of the bosses via mind control. Some bosses in instances must be killed before you can go to the final boss of said instance ect.
Darkfall by all means is a sandbox game. Just because it doesnt have x or y feature of another game doesnt mean it is not a sandbox game. So what if you cannot be a dancer ect and other things that the old swg had, that doesnt make all the other sand box games less of a sandbox. You can approach anything in darkfall on how you see it fix and that is the only thing that counts to make it as a sandbox.
So [please do yourself a favor, stop trying to invent a damn meaning of sandbox.
Do yourself a favor and follow your own idea. Stop making a concept of sandbox. Or worst, stop trying to say "your concept" is the right one.
i have not stated any concept. only the industry standard. Not some thing i made up. If you read all the posts youll see how some posters are trying to prove what they think IS the concept of sandbox like the op trying to claim darkfall is not a sandbox game. Or the poster who follows trying to throw his theroy of what a sandbox is on everyone posting a link to what he thinks a sandbox is and dares to even claim eve is not a sanbox because its missing somthing.
none of us can push what we think what sandbox means. The industry does that which i pointed out. so do yourself a favor and read every post.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
Comments
OP is a moron.
1. DF world offers player freedom. First, in exploration. You are not bound by your level. This means you are not stuck looking at a small part of a world that only expands as your level goes up. The developers did not put random mobs all over the place to impede exploration. You can go anywhere the second you create a character and enter the world.
2. You don't ever have to hold a weapon. There is (already) a very strong economy and gathering/crafting system. I probably gather more than I fight.
3. While player housing is not implemented (or player shops) yet, the world is so massively huge that I think once they are implemented you just might be able to build in designated areas. I personally don't want to see player made cities ala SWG or UO because all it does is clutter the landscape. However, if you knew the actual size of the world, I can see AV doing something akin to Vanguard and that is having specialized areas for housing. HOUSING IS COMING! But, for now, there are dozens and dozens of cities and hamlets that clans can take over and build additional structures.
4. Because of player controlled cities and hamlets, players in DF have a direct impact on the world. Adding housing will only expand the role of the player in the world.
Seriously, OP is faulting the game for not having the time to mature like games like EVE or SWG. So many troll posts are about what DF is not upon release without people actually giving DF a chance to grow and mature. EVE and SWG are not the same games today that they were when they were released. How stupid are you to hate on a game because it doesn't have everything you want it to have only two weeks after release. Come on....
Anyway, imho, the only real sandboxes are not in MMOs, but in virtual worlds like Second Life or Entropia.
1. I can go anywhere i want in VG at any level,nothing will stop me from going to the most deadly of place from level one.Now i understand that DF has no levels but if VG does the same thing as DF by allowing me to go anywhere from level one,then it's one in the samr thing.
Will i have a chance of dying if i go to all these places..yes, but could i actually survive..yes again.
2. In VG i could go all the way to top level just by crafting or diplomacy,having never picked up any weapon at all.I can actually play the game and not kill a single mob.
3.You answered this one by mentioning VG and as it stands now,VG wins on this. VG world is vast,as you know and it's actually bigger than DF.
4. Yes DF buildings can be knocked down so VG cant win this one.
5.FFA Kill anyone at any time including guild mates and group mates,plus looting all the cash/gold they have on them as well. You can't loot there items but you can still loot the player you have just killed.
The only things that DF has that VG does not is Skill based system,meaning no levels..Distructable buildings,meaning guild buildings.
ALL in all DF is not really that much different than me playing on a VG ffa server. In many ways VG it has more to offer .
Sandbox it is not.
1. You can't go where you please in VG. It is a level based system in character development and questing. Like any MMO, I am sure you can dodge around and run from high end monsters, but, the game is designed like all other level based MMOs. The farther one goes out, the harder the mobs get. Maybe you get on your mount and ride around as VG has many open and unpopulated areas, but the game is designed around LEVEL BASED EXPLORATION.
2. Yes, you can. But, my point was to the OP who was trying to say that a feature of sandboxes is that a player does not ever have to pick up a weapon. This is true in DF and VG.
3. I played VG off and on for two years. I played during release all the way up to level 50. Having explored both worlds, I must disagree with you. DF Is bigger.
4. Right now DF has premade cities and hamlets. Buildings and walls and cannons, etc can be added to them. But, like in VG (in regards to player housing), these spots are designated and players cannot build where they please. The land is certainly big enough to implement player housing later on. I suppose SWG and UO wins here but from what I remember of those games (especially SWG), the landscape becomes a ghost town of player made cities.
5. FFA PvP/Full Loot is not an indicator of whether or not a game is or is not sandbox. But, after my experiences in DF, I just won't play another MMO without this feature again.
I love Vanguard too. In fact, out of all the MMOs I've played since learning about them during the UO/EQ days, I'd say Vanguard is my most favorite level based MMO. But, I don't think any MMO is a sandbox. All MMOs base themselves on their own core rule sets. An MMO can only be as sandboxy as the rule set allows.
To me a sandbox is like Second Life. While it does not have fluid game mechanics like MMOs, I can literally login and do what I want, create what I want, be who I want. They provide the 3D modeling tools and scripting language to create basically anything. That, to me, is a sandbox.
I am waiting for the day when a developer releases a massive land with similar creation tools and basically tells it's players to get out in the world and figure out how to make things work. People plop down farms, collection of farms turn into villages, villages turn into cities - all with PvP/full loot and a great skill based system that allows its players to go out and create every single item to be used in game and thus fostering a player driven economy. The only MMO that gets this close is EVE and Entropia (though I'd say Entropia is a game based virtual world).
I never said in my post that DF is a sandbox. But, I have a problem with the OP criticizing the game like he did when the game has only recently been released. Too many people are trolling DF because it does not have the same stability or maturation as other games have (and were given the time to develop). It's like they do not understand the concept of hindsight and thus judge all games as if they should be a six year old EVE or whatever.
I agree with you mostly - EVE isn't a sandbox for its lack of social skills.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/226607/My-Theory-of-Sandbox-The-Three-Dimensional-Approach.html
But I think you are being overly critical on an indie game. They are trying to do something few games attempt on a small budget.
One thing, that post you made is basicly YOUR OPINION/THEROY ECT. What you think it is doesnt mean what the industry thinks it is.
Like others have said there are many definitions of sandbox and yours is not one of them.
Stop trying to force your opinion on others. you are not a Dev, you do not make games ect. wtf do you know is what you think it is.
What strikes you wrong is how you portayed eve. You know NOTHing of eve and how players interact ect. Being a former player of the bruce allience i can tell you how social this game is. There are tons of aspects you never tasted in eve and it shows on how ignorant you are with the game.
Like another person said, your focused most on your experience on how swg once was.
Guess what. EVE keeps expanding, adding more things to do ect. it keeps growing as a sandbox. SWG has not, it eliminated lots of its features and wont go back. accept it.
As for darkfall. It is a basic sandbox game and it can grow to be even better than what it is.
But please for the love of Gawd stop trying to force your opinion on others.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
you are mistaking "fun" with "success", The wii, for example, is FAR more successful than the Xbox and the ps3, even though the Wii has TONS of games that are commonly called "shovelware" getting incredibly low ratings, though they still sell. Why? Because they are ACCESSIBLE. They aren't bought because they are "good" or even "fun" they are bought b/c they appeal to a lot of different people, a lot of them which don't even like video games that much (but that's offtopic). The same thing happened with WoW, they dumbed down features pre-existing in other mmo's and thus it appealed to a very large amount of people. This would make the game "succesful" but by no means good.
And thus, after the wild success of WoW, all other recent mmo's are trying to copy their themepark EQ2ish gameplay style in hopes of gaining a piece of the WoW playerbase' pie. And thus the frustration, with people who don't like themepark games, b/c there are nearly no games for them to go to b/c mmo's these days are obsessed with trying to break into the mainstream mmo market, which, as of now, WoW has a monopoly on.
And, again, to OP, you can't claim that DF isn't a sandbox at this case, give it 1 or 2 months. Obviously now with no polotics, and with crafting being really hard to do (and thus no player economy), the game is barely sandbox at all, and you will be fully justified in saying that "df is a joke of a sandbox game" in 2 months (i found myself saying that the first day i got into beta, b/c i forgot that nearly every other sandbox game doesn't just come out of the box as a sandbox)
Dude, do you see what's happening here? - Even though you obviously _read_ what I posted, you are so full of the idea that 'class based' equals 'success' and 'shallowness', you don't realize that this is EXACTLY what I wanted to say.
Fun games do _not_ spring from game mechanics. Fun games spring from a much more complex thing called "working game". EvE is the hell of a fun game, as much as Lord of the Ringe Online. You can't divide the world into "unfun class based linear cookie cutter Everquest clonesque games" and "awesome FFA PvP housing sieging games that rock if only everyone knew they existed"
That's just not how it works. Dark and Light had FFA PvP, castle building, housing and economy; and it was complete crap. And on the other side of the bench, Matrix Online, or Tabula Rasa were class centered mostly non PvP linear MMOGs and also failed miserably...
It's not the friggin mechanic that decides, it's the whole game. DFO shouldn't be granted 'savious super fun' status just because you can kill your neighbor and take his stuff. This is childish. the game could still suck balls (and I don't want to claim it does)
M
/totally agree with OP
it isn't sandbox, just open pvp
for sandbox you need viable options, not just ffa pvp. ...swg pre-cu was the closest to sandbox that ive played (player housing, awesome crafting system and economy, plus fun pvp)
they only call DF sandbox cos it ins't finished yet
Well first off many of you are right and wrong at the same time. Darkfall does have many qualities of a sandbox game, yet still lacks some that many consider necessay.
This game is still in beta form, even though some of you are paying for it. Hard to critique a game when they are still flushing out all it's features.
But I do see a lot of "if's" in this thread. And I think that is where the problem lies. Can Aventurine, being a very small shop, add those features that will make it more of a sandbox. I highly suspect the game was, as usual, released before it's time because of money issues. So if you want to pay to beta test it have fun, but expect a lot of problems. The big issue I have is that many of the flaws can potentially destroy the economy before they get them fixed. Here is hoping that does not happen.
That is the big question that can only be answered by what Aventurine provides to the game in the future.
Right now it has a lot of flaws, especially the poorly written client. Only time will tell if they can correct them and provide a great game out of it.
OP real life is the best sandbox -fact now go and play
BestSigEver :P
I will say agian a sandbox is just a game that does not have levels,you are free to play how you want.
You guys are calling games that try to "full immersive virtual worlds" as sole defination of a sandbox.GTA is sandbox game,you are not on a force path.You play GTA without ever doing a mission.Thats all a sandbox is a game does not force you go from point a to b.
Sandbox games are built that way from the ground UP not reverse engineered and just happen to become sandbox. UO, EVE, original SWG, and more underground PURE sandbox games like A tale in the Desert, WURM and probably Ryzom. Darkfall from all accounts so far is simply Shadowbane 2.0. Sandbox games leave in all the useless monotnous things we do in everyday existance, gardening, farming, horse breeding, city building, home ownership, shops, all that good stuff and much more. I'm sure many of you will say well they just couldn't have implemented that but you can go do it right now on a prehistoric Java game called WURM so that argument is BS. As for cluttering up the environment with player housing, that sounds like something a WoW fanboi would say, what did you play the game for, to stand in the grass and enjoy the frakkin sunset?
A real sandbox would allow more solo play, you could in effect run your own mini economy and be self sufficient, it sounds like your either in a large guild or your not. Basically large Goon Squad esque guilds hammering each other all day.
Those are features that may or may not be present in a sandbox. Sandbox just means nonlinear. Darkfall isn't a shooter either. No Guns.........
-.- Ok then. First person Sworder... Better?
I think you know what he meant. lol.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Yes, sandbox games are pretty awesome, however, there's only 1 true sandbox game, and it isn't good.
http://wurmonline.com/'
It hasn't got animations, worst voice acting in history and their developers are only out for your money, however, if you look to the concept and see how much potential the game has, it's almost wort it.
I tought DF could do better, and darkfall is much better, not a bad game at all, but it isn't a true sandbox as i tought it would be
blah blah nonsence.
Darkfall indeed is a sandbox game. Please people stop trying to figure out how to define sandbox. GTA is a sandbox game. It doesnt let you build houses or cut trees down ect. But it allows you to approach its content as you see it fit. Thats what defines the sanbox.
Morrowind is another good example of a sandbox. My wife never played video games before yet she fell in love with morrowind. All she did was kill everything in sight. She would get messages that she killed someone important and that the story cannot be completed, however she did find the 2 items needed to kill the last boss and beat the game.
The op has no idea what hes talking about. Much less that other poster who linked his"theorys" and tries to force them on everyone.
Wow is NOT a sandbox. In order to do some content you have to beat a boss of another area to unlock another boss. ex defeating the second last boss in naxx gives you an item to fight the dragon in nexus. Your forced to have some classes in your group to finish content. Ex iun nax heroic you need 2 or more priests to down some of the bosses via mind control. Some bosses in instances must be killed before you can go to the final boss of said instance ect.
Darkfall by all means is a sandbox game. Just because it doesnt have x or y feature of another game doesnt mean it is not a sandbox game. So what if you cannot be a dancer ect and other things that the old swg had, that doesnt make all the other sand box games less of a sandbox. You can approach anything in darkfall on how you see it fix and that is the only thing that counts to make it as a sandbox.
So [please do yourself a favor, stop trying to invent a damn meaning of sandbox.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.
if you don't agree with the op; then PLEASE do elaborate upon the crafting, the taming, the exploration and such items as these.
religious experiences mean nada in this discourse.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
blah blah nonsence.
Darkfall indeed is a sandbox game. Please people stop trying to figure out how to define sandbox. GTA is a sandbox game. It doesnt let you build houses or cut trees down ect. But it allows you to approach its content as you see it fit. Thats what defines the sanbox.
Morrowind is another good example of a sandbox. My wife never played video games before yet she fell in love with morrowind. All she did was kill everything in sight. She would get messages that she killed someone important and that the story cannot be completed, however she did find the 2 items needed to kill the last boss and beat the game.
The op has no idea what hes talking about. Much less that other poster who linked his"theorys" and tries to force them on everyone.
Wow is NOT a sandbox. In order to do some content you have to beat a boss of another area to unlock another boss. ex defeating the second last boss in naxx gives you an item to fight the dragon in nexus. Your forced to have some classes in your group to finish content. Ex iun nax heroic you need 2 or more priests to down some of the bosses via mind control. Some bosses in instances must be killed before you can go to the final boss of said instance ect.
Darkfall by all means is a sandbox game. Just because it doesnt have x or y feature of another game doesnt mean it is not a sandbox game. So what if you cannot be a dancer ect and other things that the old swg had, that doesnt make all the other sand box games less of a sandbox. You can approach anything in darkfall on how you see it fix and that is the only thing that counts to make it as a sandbox.
So [please do yourself a favor, stop trying to invent a damn meaning of sandbox.
hi, you sound like you might know stuff about darkfall. do you know if there are different types of ores to be mined and if those ores give different resistances/abilities to armors/weapons made from them? or is it just a generic ore and nothing different happens cuz well it's just one generic ore?
same for harvesting hides and woods.
thanks.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
blah blah nonsence.
Darkfall indeed is a sandbox game. Please people stop trying to figure out how to define sandbox. GTA is a sandbox game. It doesnt let you build houses or cut trees down ect. But it allows you to approach its content as you see it fit. Thats what defines the sanbox.
Morrowind is another good example of a sandbox. My wife never played video games before yet she fell in love with morrowind. All she did was kill everything in sight. She would get messages that she killed someone important and that the story cannot be completed, however she did find the 2 items needed to kill the last boss and beat the game.
The op has no idea what hes talking about. Much less that other poster who linked his"theorys" and tries to force them on everyone.
Wow is NOT a sandbox. In order to do some content you have to beat a boss of another area to unlock another boss. ex defeating the second last boss in naxx gives you an item to fight the dragon in nexus. Your forced to have some classes in your group to finish content. Ex iun nax heroic you need 2 or more priests to down some of the bosses via mind control. Some bosses in instances must be killed before you can go to the final boss of said instance ect.
Darkfall by all means is a sandbox game. Just because it doesnt have x or y feature of another game doesnt mean it is not a sandbox game. So what if you cannot be a dancer ect and other things that the old swg had, that doesnt make all the other sand box games less of a sandbox. You can approach anything in darkfall on how you see it fix and that is the only thing that counts to make it as a sandbox.
So [please do yourself a favor, stop trying to invent a damn meaning of sandbox.
Do yourself a favor and follow your own idea. Stop making a concept of sandbox. Or worst, stop trying to say "your concept" is the right one.
blah blah nonsence.
Darkfall indeed is a sandbox game. Please people stop trying to figure out how to define sandbox. GTA is a sandbox game. It doesnt let you build houses or cut trees down ect. But it allows you to approach its content as you see it fit. Thats what defines the sanbox.
Morrowind is another good example of a sandbox. My wife never played video games before yet she fell in love with morrowind. All she did was kill everything in sight. She would get messages that she killed someone important and that the story cannot be completed, however she did find the 2 items needed to kill the last boss and beat the game.
The op has no idea what hes talking about. Much less that other poster who linked his"theorys" and tries to force them on everyone.
Wow is NOT a sandbox. In order to do some content you have to beat a boss of another area to unlock another boss. ex defeating the second last boss in naxx gives you an item to fight the dragon in nexus. Your forced to have some classes in your group to finish content. Ex iun nax heroic you need 2 or more priests to down some of the bosses via mind control. Some bosses in instances must be killed before you can go to the final boss of said instance ect.
Darkfall by all means is a sandbox game. Just because it doesnt have x or y feature of another game doesnt mean it is not a sandbox game. So what if you cannot be a dancer ect and other things that the old swg had, that doesnt make all the other sand box games less of a sandbox. You can approach anything in darkfall on how you see it fix and that is the only thing that counts to make it as a sandbox.
So [please do yourself a favor, stop trying to invent a damn meaning of sandbox.
Do yourself a favor and follow your own idea. Stop making a concept of sandbox. Or worst, stop trying to say "your concept" is the right one.
i have not stated any concept. only the industry standard. Not some thing i made up. If you read all the posts youll see how some posters are trying to prove what they think IS the concept of sandbox like the op trying to claim darkfall is not a sandbox game. Or the poster who follows trying to throw his theroy of what a sandbox is on everyone posting a link to what he thinks a sandbox is and dares to even claim eve is not a sanbox because its missing somthing.
none of us can push what we think what sandbox means. The industry does that which i pointed out. so do yourself a favor and read every post.
Watching Fanbois drop their soap in a prison full of desperate men.